BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Slag
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 04:52 AM

Yup Monique, that does just about says it all. So much for the "soiled dove with the heart of gold" theory.

Bobert, I expect you didn't look at the links Monique posted. The persons you described sound like the bottom of the barrel to me. They didn't have enough dignity and self respect nor imagination to find some other way to finance whatever it was they were finanacing? They didn't think enough of their customers they endangered? Their families or at least future families? To go willingly into a situation which others are forced into under the most evil circumstances is just about beyond comprehension. Nonetheless, ya pays your money and you makes your choices or in this case you makes your choices and then they pays the money. Either way, I find it sad for thoses whose lives were so destroyed that they were trapped or sold into it and disgusting for those who made it a choice of freewill.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM

Yes, Slag, we are in 100% agreement on that... It's kinda like the kid who get's busted for pot and looses his college scholarship and ends up workin' at the Walmart or worse... There are way too many folks being exploited and many times it's our laws that are fostering that exploitation...

It's time to rethink just how many things that don't hurt anyone we want to prohibit... The prohibition in itself creates alot of the pain and suffering... Not to mention that it is costly (on many levels) to enforce them...

Take prostitution... If it were legal and prostitutes were able to get a license, advertise, have federal tax I.D. numbers, etc. then they wouldn't have to walk the streets or be dependent on pimps... I mmean, this would elevate this activity to a level of respectability and safety for all involved...

I mean, this is all about left-over Victorian values... The problem I have with Vistorian values is that those preachin' um' are the ones "gettin' caught in the motel room doing what they said not to do"... Too many examples out there to get into 'um all...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 01:17 PM

"...traditional price of sex for a man is lifelong marriage, i.e. feeding the woman even when she is no longer attractive...."

What a thoroughly unpleasant, and disturbing, comment. ====
====
I agree Lizzie. There used to be a "joke" when I was young which ran "Marriage is the price men pay for sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is the price women pay for marriage." ~ But I never found it very funny, even back in my teens in the 40-50s. I wonder if it still has any currency?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 02:32 PM

I did not pay that woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:09 PM

Respectability.....Get a grip Bob, prostitution will never be respectable.....Women or young men who practice it, give a buy one get one free deal...when they sell their sex, they throw in their soul.


To pretend that legalisation equates to respectability is a cop out.
Legalisation would simply be a device to improve health issues AND of course to allow the "oldest profession" to be taxable.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:33 PM

It's legal in some parts of Nevada. I'm no big fan of Nevada...it's a pretty corrupt state...but I didn't notice that the legalized prostitution was causing any notable problems when I was there. Actually, I didn't notice it at all...I had my mind on other things at the time.

I have noticed prostitutes various times in Toronto, roaming about looking for customers. They usually had a rather pathetic or desperate or just plain "hard" look. I think they'd be a lot safer if it was legalized...and well regulated...as it is in Amsterdam, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 03:55 PM

No, it's exploitation of women.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Slag
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 04:24 PM

Carthage, Rome, Greece, Persia, Israel (the former) and many other civilizations all had some form of legalized and/or socially accpetable prostitution and for the most part it tended to debase the societies and undermine families on which is the rock solid foundation of EVERY society.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 04:25 PM

Yes I think so Frank.
We complain when we have to sell our lives to survive...our strength, our wit, our brains...I suppose we are all exploited by capital.....But for anyone, especially a woman, to be forced into a position where she feels she must sell what defines womanhood and motherhood, to a stranger who sees her only as a slab of meat, is doubly disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 04:38 PM

It **ought** to be a victimless non-crime, and be legal and controlled-- but it usually don't work out that way because 'people'...mostly men, but some of the women, seem to have a need to treat it as sin & degradation. I don't really expect that to change soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 04:52 PM

You dont think it is degrading Bill?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 04:56 PM

Degrading? You are degrading prostitutes with that question.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 05:53 PM

Slavery is degrading....prostitution is degrading.
The practice....not the people..

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 05:53 PM

I agree that it debases the society and tends to debase family life, gentlemen...

However, I don't think we can put this particular genie back in the bottle by using the law to persecute people who willingly and of their own free will buy and sell sex. The society, you see, is already deeply debased and disturbed in the first place when people turn to selling their bodies. What you need to do is reform all of society, not just attack a single symptom of the general debasement. And how do you reform all of society? Not by repression of people. You reform it by protecting people's freedoms and ensuring that they ALL have good job opportunities, a good wage, a good place to live, an honest police force, an honest government, equal education opportunities for all, social justice for all, poverty for none.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 06:20 PM

What, legalizing prostitution will "debase" the family???

Exactly what family are you talkin' about, Slag??? I mean, look around you... The family has been going down-hill for a long time now... Now kids don't even want to get married... Marriage is out... We have more single parent households then any time in history...

I mean, lets get real here... Ain't nuthin' new... I spent the first half my working life workin' in the community, mostly as a socail worker... The family was on life support then and it's worse now...

And guess what... Prostitution didn't cause that...

If anything, legalization would help the family... Huh??? That's right... It would help the family... The prosecution of prostitution only creates strife and economic and emotional suffering... The "John" is found out, the wife leaves him and there goes another family down the drain... The prostitute now has work harder to pay the attorney and fines...

I mean, prosecution is beyond vengeful (unChristian, BTW) but also bad policy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Slag
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 06:46 PM

So, with your logic, Bobert, because everything seems to be going downhill, let 'er go?!! Speed up the process?!! People are always gonna steal so what the hell, let 'em steal?!! Some family relations are in the dumper so never mind addressing one of the agents of this degeneracy?!! Simply amazing. And I AM addressing the problem hear and now. I am arguing for the family and all the good it stands for. The battle is won in the hearts and minds of those who will listen, those who will be persuaded that the good things in and of this world should triumph over the bad. Destruction of the soul, of families, of society is BAD. BAD, Bobert. Support your local fammilies. Suppot your immediate family. Inform them of the neccessity of maitaining a loving relationship and of honoring one another. Resist the evil of betrayal to that commitment. It works. Just change your thinking on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 06:59 PM

"You dont think it is degrading Bill?"

No, I don't think it's automatically degrading. I am sure that everyday someone trades sex for money and everyone has fun and no one is unhappy. Sadly, that's not not the usual way, and the 'degrading' part was already in someone's head before any offer of sex OR money.

" .prostitution is degrading." is a slogan...a mindset... not a universal truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 07:18 PM

ake... "Slavery is degrading....prostitution is degrading.
The practice....not the people.. "

Ever the ultimate wind-em-up-for-the-fun-of-it-ache. That was a good try, especially attempting to link and equate prostitution to slavery, but still bullshit. As I know this will degrade even further into a non-ending "debate", I shall say gnightgnu and, as usual, have fun with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 07:43 PM

I didn't say any of those things, Slag...

What I said is that prosecution is only hurting people on both sides...

The rest of yer post is all imagination of what you wished I'd said, but didn't...

You want to talk about the disintegration of the family, which is a terrible thing, then start a thread on it but if yer gonna blame it on prostitution then seein' that prostitution has been with us for a long, long time then yer gonna have to explain how families seemed to do well several decades ago with it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 08:09 PM

Bill D: ""You dont think it is degrading Bill?"
No, I don't think it's automatically degrading. I am sure that everyday someone trades sex for money and everyone has fun and no one is unhappy. Sadly, that's not not the usual way, and the 'degrading' part was already in someone's head before any offer of sex OR money."

Good, then I hope you don't mind if I wish your daughter all the successes in such a venture! You should be proud...shouldn't you??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 08:24 PM

Does the phrase "leading question" ring any bells? Why, I have even stopped beating my wife!

I have no daughters, but somewhere SOMEONE'S daughter today has done as I said, and offered herself for some sort of remuneration.
(Did you read the old joke I posted back up ↑ there?)
Is accepting a weekend & cash from a rich guy any different from a 'bang for a buck'?
If I had a daughter, I'd certainly HOPE she could do better....once she's 18, it's kinda out of my control.

I repeat... it is not common that trading sex for cash or goods is happy & fair and reasonable....but it is not totally rare, either.

I am not promoting prostitution....I am just being a realist.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 10:00 PM

Ditto, Bill...

In defending decriminalization and an ending to prohibition I am not advocating either side of the transaction... But that tiny bit of libertarian in me says, "As long as folks ain't hurtin' each other then live and let live"... I mean, seems archaic, Victorian values have given us way too many laws that regulate behaviors of folks where no one is harmed in anyway???

I mean, sheet fire, ya'll... Here we got this deficit and we're spending, what, hundred billion a year or so (plus the aftereffects of bein' in the joint) for messin' with these folks???

This is some very messed up thinking... And bad policy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:47 AM

We should really be concentrating on constructing a society where there is no longer any need for women to sell their bodies to strangers.....as someone said earlier, it is "Capitalism in the raw"

Most protitution is carried out to finance a drug habit, an unsustainable lifestyle, or to keep an abusive partner.

It should not be beyond the capabilities of a CARING society to over come these problems.

And people here should never imply that others should just be left to injure themselves in mind and body, by practicing behaviours which are dangerous, degrading, or deadly.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Slag
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:39 AM

No Bobert, I didn't say a thing about prosecution. Said that If anything is going to really be done about it we need to change folks' attitudes and hearts about the issue. That is the only way it can be dealt with effectively. I couldn't agree with you more. The penal system only serves to create dedicated criminals, helps to destroy families and cause resentment in the case of prostitution and some other low level crimes and misdemeanors.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:42 AM

"Most prostitution is carried out to finance a drug habit"???

Source, por favor???

As for CARING... If we truly cared we would accept the fact that prostitution has been with us thousands of years and will be with us thousands more... Once we accept ***reality*** then, and only then, can we move to policies that are "CARING" and away from those that are very much not...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:58 AM

I have just taken a quick 20 minute run through the thread so if I have missed any essential things do forgive me.

In essence if a woman or man decides to sell something they have, be it manual or mental, as a resource that is required and wanted, then that 'talent' has an intrinsic value and should be paid for fairly. Most of us who are fortunate to have a job or are employed do that all the time.

If that 'talent' involves something sexual there is no reason why it should be made illegal or be debased as long as the person who is doing the work is not being exploited or forced to do it. For me the illegality comes from women or men being forced to have to do something they would not by others who then live off them.

Even this has a certain moral quality to it. Bosses and shareholders inevitably earn their livings and bonuses from the profits they get by others working for them. People loving off other people. Thankfully in most good economies there are now laws to protect those workers and see to it they are not being exploited and used in an unfair way. This does not stop sweatshops nor does it stop women potentially being paid less than her male colleague for the same job. But it is mostly legalised and done with lots more safety and fairness in mind than it used to be. The biggest user of people who work is some industries are the consumers themselves. We all want things cheaper and labour costs are a big part of the price of anything. Workers get exploited very often by our own need to get things cheaper. Yet we still seem to accept that on a far different scale than when sex is put into the equation as a commodity to be paid for or sold.

In short. Prostitution is likely to be more about money than anything else BUT what makes it such a hot topic for debate is that many see it as very different from any other item for sale. What needs to be done is for prostitutes to be given the same protection and rights as all other workers. They should be respected for the services they provide. They should get good health plans and be allowed to pay their taxes. They should not be judged and looked down upon like some second class citizen. Those that would exploit and force them to do what they do are the ones in the wrong.

As for the ones who do it for drugs and drink then the same laws can apply to them as apply to all other jobs. You cannot turn in if you are on drugs or drunk. The law is already there for all.

The whole way that most of society looks at prostitutes and sex workers is, for me, wrong. They are not a subspecies and never should be looked at or treated as that. They should be embraced as all other workers in society. It is very obvious their services are required and needed. It is not prostitutes or prostitution that is wrong per se. It the way that society allows them to be treated and exploited that seems to be wrong.

As in most things, the minute sex enters the fray then moral judgements loom large and people look to the prostitute/sex worker as being the cause of some decline in our society. It's not their fault. They are providing a service that is obviously much needed. I will not judge them for that no more than I would anyone else who goes out and does an honest job

Just some thoughts on my 'take' on the subject.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:46 AM

Exactly, mp...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 02:31 PM

MP...Do you think even a minute percentage of prostitutes get any job satisfaction from their "work"?

If You do, you are more naive than even I thought you were.I can assure you the young ladies I have spoken to dont believe they are performing a "useful service"....their self esteem is nil, they take no part in normal society, and have nothing but hatred for those who use them.

Society has failed these children....dont even try to excuse the abuse.... "because they chose it".

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 02:39 PM

Street prostitutes bet their lives on every "trick", either through STD's or having their throat cut by a maniac.......Does that seem like just another job of work to you?

To me it seems a symptom of extreme desperation.....these kids need help from society, not further pain and anguish.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 02:59 PM

FROM NATIONAL CRIMINAL JUSTICE REGISTER>>>>USA

Abstract: TO DETERMINE WHETHER DRUG USE IS UNCOMMONLY PREVALENT AMONG PROSTITUTES, OR WHETHER THE ASSUMPTION OF AN ASSOCIATION BETWEEN PROSTITUTION AND DRUG USE IS MERELY PART OF PUBLIC PREJUDICE AGAINST PROSTITUTES, INTERVIEWS WERE CONDUCTED WITH PROSTITUTES AND LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL. MOST OF THE FINDINGS CAME FROM RESPONSES TO QUESTIONNAIRES AND CONVERSATION WITH 60 PROSTITUTES CONTACTED THROUGH THE NEW YORK STATE OFFICE OF DRUG ABUSE SERVICES, PROGRAMS FOR EX-OFFENDERS, THE PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS OF COYOTE AND PUMA, AND THROUGH REFERRALS. ALL 60 SUBJECTS REPORTED SOME FORM OF DRUG USE, WITH 72 PERCENT HAVING USED HEROIN, 93 PERCENT HAVING USED MARIJUANA, AND 83 PERCENT HAVING USED COCAINE. DESPITE POSSIBLE BIAS IN THE DATA ATTRIBUTABLE TO THE RESEARCHER'S GENDER AND STATUS, THE DATA APPEAR ACCURATE AS SELF-REPORTS FROM THE RESEARCH SUBJECTS WHO HAD NOTHING TO GAIN BY LYING. AN EXTENSIVE SURVEY OF THE LITERATURE INDICATES THAT THE REPORTS OF THE SUBJECTS DO NOT DIFFER GREATLY FROM PATTERNS OF BEHAVIOR REPORTED BY OTHER PROGRAMS. EXAMINATION OF DATA INDICATES THAT WOMEN ON THE HIGHER PAID LEVELS OF PROSTITUTION ARE LIKELY TO PERCEIVE THEIR WORK AS AN OCCUPATION OR A BUSINESS WHILE LOWER-LEVEL PROSTITUTES WHO SUPPORT DRUG HABITS OR PIMPS TEND NOT TO HAVE THE HIGHER DEGREE OF COMMITMENT. DEMOGRAPHIC ANALYSES INDICATE THAT REGULAR DRUG USE IS LESS COMMON AMONG THE HIGHER-PAID PROSTITUTES THAN AMONG THE LOWER-PAID GROUP. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT WOMEN ARE COERCED INTO PROSTITUTION BY THIRD PARTIES USING DRUGS TO 'ENSLAVE' WOMEN. HOWEVER, WOMEN WHO ARE ADDICTS AND ARE MORE LIKELY TO ENCOUNTER THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM MAY BECOME PROSTITUTES. SUBJECTS GENERALLY AGREED THAT DRUG USE WAS OPPOSED BY PIMPS AND MADAMS, AND THAT ADDICTION PRECLUDED THE POSSIBILITY OF WORKING AS A CALL GIRL. DRUG USE AND POSSESSION IS FELT TO DETER THE ENTRY TO BETTER OCCUPATIONAL LEVELS, INVOKE POLICE HARASSMENT, AND DETRACT FROM THE PROSTITUTES' 'PROFESSIONALISM.' TABULAR DATA AND EXTENSIVE BIBLIOGRAPHIC REFERENCES ARE PROVIDED

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 03:30 PM

That, Ake, is what is referred to as as methodology... There is nothin' in that report that represents a cross section of the general population because if you'll look at it the findings were from the New York Drug Abuse Service where, duhhhh, you might find a large percentage of clients with, ahhhhhh, drug problems???

Guess again...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 03:32 PM

Make that, "bad methodology"...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 03:42 PM

INTRODUCTION
Previous research on women who engaged in prostitution has found a high
rate of drug abuse among this population (Kuhns, Heide, & Silverman, 1992;
El-Bassel et al., 1997; Nadon, Koverola, & Schludermann, 1998; Potterat,
Rothenberg, Muth, Darrow, & Phillips-Plummer, 1998). Among the reasons
for women entering into prostitution, drug addiction itself is one of the main
explanations given by researchers (Weeks, Grier, Romero-Daza, & Puglisi-
Vasquez, 1998; Kuhns, et al; Gossop, Powis, Griffiths, & Strang, 1994).
Prostitution may be the only means with which to finance a drug habit

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 03:51 PM

Bobert, There was a survey done in the city of Glasgow some years ago concerning prostitution/drug addiction, every prostitute questioned, had a history of drug abuse..many had also a history of sex and physical abuse from men, often family members.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Slag
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 03:55 PM

Nice post akenaton.

Well, Bobert, I do see your point and it is a cultural distinction. There have been times when the profession has been honored and even worshipped (eg. the "Kama" Sutras). The Philistines would break a baby's hymen on a stone phallus in the temple as a dedication to their baal and temple prostitution was common. But then again, so was human sacrifice but it wasn't illegal!

What I tried to get across above is that historically, societies where prostitution was condoned or at least more tolerated, were generally more corrupt in other ways. Human dignity was not a high priority nor was human life highly valued. The Judeo-Christian standard is certainly not without its flaws and the double standard and hypocracy are not the least. The standard itself, however, seeks to elevate the worth and worthiness of the human being and in so doing has advanced human civilization. That's my take and I already know the counter arguments by heart. They are well represented on some of the other current threads so we don't really need to get off into that. It is just that the ideal is uplifting and a pox on those who corrupt the ideals to justify war, murder and the like. There! That's said.

I suppose it comes down to how a society says that something is acceptable or not. Do we punish? Brand? Shun? Seek to understand and help? All of the above and others? Anarchy and revolution share the element of chaos to accomplish their ends but it always results in the establishment or restablishment of some form of order which only serves to return us to the original situation. If anarchy prevails we are returned to the rules of animal behavior but those rules must be obeyed so why not aim higher?

Our society (US) has sought to give us an orderly way to accomplish change without a descent into chaos: thorugh open and vigorous debate, election, representation, petition and proposition. Again, not without flaws but the best system yet imagined (IMHO).

Education and non-judgmental assistance (including protection services, relocation and the like for those who want to escape abusive situations) are steps in the right direction. The vast majority of Americans are very caring people and much of what I have just mentioned is carried on in communities across the nation by volunteers. That's a mark of a good society, caring and doing something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 04:44 PM

As to underline the TRUTH posted by Slag, and Akenaton, and the hypocrisy spouted by the double standard of 'liberals', who display they are severely mentally 'challenged', I thought you liberals were AGAINST capitalism!...I would think that people who charged to sell people sex, or selling 'highs', and/or other 'pleasures', which can normally be provided for free, (if they had their shit together), were the epitome and height of capitalism at its worse....along with pay toilets!..I think your phoniness and double standard hypocrisy is blatantly out there, and so obvious that any one can 'behold' it...and you hold onto your utterly lame positions, with no shame.
Says a lot about what liberals hold as values!...and how two faced they are.
Sorry, but that's the way it shakes down!
BTW, does your favorite hooker pay taxes, to contribute to the welfare and food stamp rolls??

This tells all, better than anything anyone could have done to point out your own bullshit!

Time to reconsider, don't you think?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 04:58 PM

akenaton, I think we are on the same page here. The idea that prostitution is fun is a male concept culturally driven by a male-dominated society. The idea behind prostitution is that it cheapens sex by giving it a monetary exchange.

I am too much of a romantic to ever want to sell-out something that is what I consider naturally beautiful although it is used as a weapon of manipulation by some.

Ancient societies did have Geishas and Hatairas (sp?) in ancient Greece but were these prostitutes in the way that we know them today?

Today, prostitution is an exploitive transaction that is affiliated with crime and poverty.
Even when it becomes expensive for New York governors, it still has the cache of "illicit"
in our society. Even the euphemism "sex worker" doesn't seem to break the implication.

Societal codes of ethics serve an important function and putting sex on a money basis diminishes these ethics by objectifying women and mechanizing sex. I refer the proponents of prostitution to Ira Levin's "Stepford Wives".

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 04:59 PM

akenaton... I was not excusing any abuse. Even in law one cannot consent to abuse. And there are millions of people in jobs they hate.

I was merely trying to balance the actual root thing around prostitution and I think I certainly made adequate point about abuse and exploitation never being acceptable. Lots of prostitution does not take part on the streets and some women have the right to choose what they wish to do with their own bodies.

I am wholeheartedly against exploitation and abuse. But if someone decides they want to do the job as a job then society should look down on them in any way. I suspect that many feel no esteem because they have been robbed of it by the way they are looked upon by most.

I was not - AM NOT - making a case for women to be made to do sexual acts free or for payment. Merely that if a woman chooses to do something (or man for that matter) that does not sit right with the moralists then they should not be condemend for it

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:19 PM

First of all, I am clueless as to who GfinS's rant was aimed at??? Actually, I am clueless as to what she is even talkin' about... Of course, that being said, I fully expect some clever rebuttal about "cluelessness" in general...

As for 'liberals"??? I'm not too sure who they are or what they believe... The term has been so corrupted over the years by the folks trying to get into power or stay in power...

As for prostitution... Keep it a crime and all you are doing is creating criminals, supporting pimps, endangering alot of people and forcing folks to hide from a prudish, Talibanish, Victorian code of behavior... And the folks who are at the forefront of keeping it a crtime are the ones who are disproportionately caught doin' the stuff they told you not to do... That is 24 carot hypocrisy...

(But, Boberdz... Elliot Spitzer got caught...)

Okay, so he did... Shall we go down the list of folk on the other side of the political divide who have been caught???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:39 PM

Bobert I think we may be at cross purposes.
I know you are a good person and I have no wish to see the victims of this behaviour punished.....for the prostitutes are the victims, although a few of them may have "chosen" their "lifestyle"

I would happily see the men who prey on these women prosecuted, but as Slag, s/singer, GfS and others have said the real answer is to change society so that women would no longer give thought to selling their souls or their pride.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:27 PM

"the real answer is to change society so that women would no longer give thought to selling their souls or their pride"

Exactly! Go after the real foundational problem, not one of the symptoms of the problem.

Another answer that goes along with the one above...."change society so that men would no longer give thought to selling their souls or their pride by paying someone money to have sex with them". Seems to me that there's something fundamentally missing in a man's understanding of himself and of other people if he pays money to someone to have sex with him...but that's only my own personal viewpoint on it. I would feel ashamed, disgusted, depressed, and humiliated to have to pay a woman so she would have sex with me. I don't want the mere physical pretence of intimacy with another human being...I want the real thing. I too have pride and a sense of my own value, and I wish to be appreciated by a woman for myself, not for a damn fistful of dollars.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:49 PM

Fine, ake, GfinS, Slag, LH, et al...

Go out and change society... I put in my 25 years of very intense "change society" time and some...

Meanwhile, while we're waitin' on ya'll to do that, why keep punishing people who are either, like ya'll say, are victims or folks who are about to become victims of Victorian hypocrits by busting them???

Ain't mush logic in ya'll's *short term* plan...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 06:54 PM

"...the young ladies I have spoken to dont believe they are performing a "useful service".."

Well now... there's a nice survey! I'm sure all Indians walk in single file, because I saw an Indian once, and HE was walking single file.

I will try ONCE more to make the point. There are two issues: 1) Should it be legal and regulated as long as everything is fair & consensual? 2) Are there serious problems in society that make much of it degrading, dangerous and enmeshed in drugs & other crime?

Why can't both be true? Of COURSE we need to "... be concentrating on constructing a society where there is no longer any need for women to sell their bodies to strangers."
But..what if we GET that society or close to it? What if 'strangers' are not involved? What do you call it if there is an 'understanding' that if HE provides dinner & a movie, SHE provides sex? Yeah, there's a difference between that and a cheap hotel and streetwalking...but you & I both can describe situations where it's very hard to draw a line.
It should not be necessary or common, but it should not be automatically condemned, because there ARE women who consider their 'special talents' to be salable skills, and some who genuinely DO enjoy the 'job'. If this society were not so hung up on artificial definitions of what 'nice' sex is about, there would BE far less sad situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:01 PM

"I will try ONCE more to make the point."

Dont bother Bill, you do yourself a disservice.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:11 PM

myself? Why is it not a 'disservice' to be wedded to ONE simplistic viewpoint based on personal values while ignoring the real world?

Ok...I think I've been as clear as I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:17 PM

For a start Bill, no man worthy of the name would expect sex just because he bought a girl a meal.....and if we ever arrive at the sort of society where sex is obtained via contract....then god help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:24 PM

Bobert, I am NOT in favor of busting or harassing prostitutes. I am in favor of setting something up so that they are a lot safer and better protected than they are at present.

Just because I don't like the idea of prostitution in itself does not mean that I wish to see the forces of the law go after the prostitutes. I was indicating my own personal preferences...not my wish to see prostitutes arrested and treated as criminals. In my opinion, they are not criminals. Many of them are, in fact, victims OF crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:45 PM

The only point at which I might begin to anticipate (not "expect") sex with someone is normally....after I've gotten to know her well enough that I know I like her, I know I respect her, I know I find her really interesting and appealing, I most DEFINITELY know that I really like her a whole lot!...and I get the feeling she feels much the same about me.

Then I may begin to anticipate the possibility of sex.

And that takes a fair while to happen, because it normally takes awhile to get that well acquainted with a person, doesn't it?

It does not happen while walking down the street, that's for sure. And it has absolutely nothing to do with buying or selling anything. It has to do with establishing levels of trust, intimacy, and mutual respect.

And that is why I don't get how any man can feel "okay" about paying someone to have sex with him.

This does not mean I wish to have prostitutes busted. It just means I don't wish to become a paying client myself, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:49 PM

We are on the same page, LH...

Legalize prostitution first and that will go along way toward changing society... Right now we have too many people being jailed for victimless crimes... That's not what free countries do... That is what the Taliban does...

Bill and I, I think, have laid out all the reasons why criminalizing prostitution is not only wrong but counterproductive...

Yeah, it can be argued that "Gee, I wish that __________________" but Bill and I are dealing with reality... Not Wishland...

BTW, if comments about a "favorite prostitute" we aimed at me, I don't have a favorite prostitute... Might of fact, I have never engaged a prostitute... Okay, I knew a few back when I was workin' at the half-way house in the inner city of Richmond... No, I knew a lot of them... They would come listen to me play guitar sittin' outside on warm summer nights when I was S.O.D. (Staff on Duty) and would be up all night and I'd talk with them (as people, gol danged it)... That gave me my perspective into this entire deal...

I mean, it's easy to wring ones hands and pronounce others -- it's always others -- as immoral or evil or bad or this or that...Ain't so easy when you bring it down to real people in a real world...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution Just Sex?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:59 PM

Way back when I was a whole lot younger...and still a virgin...and rather troubled about it at the time...

I happened to traveling through Nevada. It occurred to me..."prostitution is legal here". Hmmm. For a few seconds the thought passed through my mind..."I could get past this virginity wall I am facing by just going to a prostitute."

I thought about it for about half a minute, and realized I just couldn't do it, because it wasn't what I wanted. I wanted to be genuinely loved by someone who cared, not just serviced by someone who didn't care.

So there you have it.

...and THAT was exactly why I had to wait until I was 59 years old before finally losing my virginity!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

Geez. Maybe I made a big mistake there, eh?   ;-D