BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 12:31 PM

the only way I can see for you to know the intent, meaning, and consequence of what you observed is to get further information from the priest as well as to ask for clarification from some of your Latino fellow members.

Why the hell would she want to do that? Could might be she'd find she wasted all that outrage & righteous indignation.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: olddude
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 12:25 PM

It goes back Bill to what I said, one doesn't need a building or a leader to pray and worship God ... when I see such things in church I walk out because then it is just a worldly ceremony then and not what it is suppose to be

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 11:28 AM

When you intermix multiple versions of culture, religion and personality and try to satisfy ALL of them in one ceremony or institution, this is what happens. It saddens me that people can tie themselves into such intransigent knots that disputes like this can happen.

..ah well...

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 11:19 AM

Lot of personal attacking going on in this thread, imo. Joe, I am surprised you would use the "Nazi" appellation attached to anything, esp. a group from your own church. I think that word is used too casually these days.

mg, I echo what maeve said.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 11:08 AM

First of all, I never said the people saluted Adolph Hitler. I said they gave what was identical to the Nazi salute. Second, he did not stop the whole novena. He stopped the day that coincided with the Immaculate Conception. Third..it was not appended to the Mass as far as I could tell..they probably would have met there after Mass but it would in no way have interfered with anyone. There is something about breaking up a novena that does not appeal to the superstitious part of me, as well as insulting, from the altar, a whole group of people and one of their main religious qualities, namely, devotion to Lady of Guadalupe. It was not necessary, it was not nice and others I talked with, of non-Mexican descent, were appalled as well. And I must say I don't understand why people have to talk in church after Mass..they could wait until they got to the vestibule so I don't understand the rosary thing. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: olddude
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:43 AM

GET up walk out and call the Bishop ... this is nuts .. and yes I am catholic

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:40 AM

Had I been among the Hispanics I would have gone outside and said the novena kneeling on the church steps. When the press arrived I would have told them why.

Funny, isn't it? Our pastor speaks fluent Spanish, we conduct Mass in Spanish (daily and weekly), and the Feast of Nuestra Senora de Guadelupe (recognized by the Vatican) is well-attended by everyone in the parish.

A novena is a private devotion, not a requirement of the Catholic Faith.

Sorry, Joe. I disagree with you; I think the priest was off-base.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: maeve
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 10:22 AM

Hi, mg. It would be interesting to ask the priest to help you understand his words and the thoughts behind them. I can understand that you felt protective of your fellow worshipers, and the only way I can see for you to know the intent, meaning, and consequence of what you observed is to get further information from the priest as well as to ask for clarification from some of your Latino fellow members.

Feel free to send me a PM if you'd care to talk about the issue further.

Warm regards,

Maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:33 AM

The only way to deal with that kind of bigotry is to ask him in a loud voice to repeat the instruction, then again and he will be humiliated.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:31 AM

Its difficult to have a rational conversation with a crazy person, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 04:28 AM

Where did this happen, please? Other reports/accounts - in English or Spanish?

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 04:05 AM

I'm sorry, mg, but what you say is preposterous, just like what you've said about the Nazi salutes. Priests don't have any reason to stop people from praying novenas, and parishes have no reason to salute Adolf Hitler. I dare you to talk to the priest in a nonconfrontational manner and get his side of the story.

I will say, however, that the novena I found is a bit much, and there are other Guadalupe novenas that have political and ideological agendas attached. Maybe there was something objectionable about the particular novena these people were using. In general, novenas, rosaries, and other "private" devotions are to be practiced separately from the Mass, and not appended to the official worship.

I had a pastor who stopped the Knights of Columbus from saying the rosary after Sunday Mass. Sounds horrible, doesn't it? What a horrible, horrible priest! Well, that ain't the whole story. The Knights, God bless 'em, wanted to start the rosary before the people were finished leaving church after Mass, and they insisted that everybody had to be absolutely quiet instead of greeting each other and engaging in normal conversation. The Knights would recite the rosary like a drill sergeant counting cadence. The priest first tried turning off the PA system so the Knights wouldn't be so domineering, but that didn't work. Finally, he told the Knights they had to wait ten minutes after Mass before they began the rosary, but the Knights didn't want to wait so long so they stopped saying the rosary. Eventually, a quiet, gentle group formed to say the rosary after Mass, and it wasn't a problem at all - quite unlike the Knights, whom I labeled the "Rosary Nazis."


So, mg, what's the whole story?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 03:25 AM

There are plenty of people who could lock up. This was because it was a Holy Day of Obligation and Mass wiped out the need for novena prayers. That is what he said. That is fine...he does not have to go. I do not have to go. He should have told them they do not have to go to the novena tonight because it had been taken care of with the mass. No..what he said was that they could not do the novena tonight, even though it is a very deep part of their religion. They could not do it. And he was giving them a stern warning. Those were his words..a stern warning. They clustered in the middle of the church after Mass, looking dumbfounded. Like I said one or maybe two women were crying. I wish I had started saying some hail marys because I was not part of the novena. Everyone knows how devoted they are to the Lady of Guadalupe. This was religious brutality, totally unnecessary, culturally beyond insensitive. It was really messing with peoples' traditions, their fundamental religious beliefs etc. I think he has lost a big chunk of the congregation, who will go to the next parish over. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 01:25 AM

I think mg may have misunderstood what was happening, just as she did with her claim that this church makes "Nazi salutes" instead of blessings. If she had taken the time to talk calmly with the priest about the situation, I might agree she has a case.

Certainly, it would be unthinkable to stop Mexican people from having prayers to Our Lady of Guadalupe during the week before the Dec 12 feast of the Patron of Mexico - but our reporter tends to be a bit distorted in her perception at times.

So, mg, come back to us after you've talked to the priest and heard his side of the story. You and the people may have been insulted, but not the virgin. I'm guessing there's a rational explanation. Maybe the novena has been taking an hour or longer every night and he had to lock up and go make hospital calls. But hell, you think these people are Nazis and I wonder why you bother going to church there. Our Lady of Distorted Perception Parish might be more to your liking.

We're having a fiesta in our parish - with lots of terrific Mexican food. The Mexican community raised money for a statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and we're making the event into a big celebration.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 01:15 AM

I'd say to send a letter to the bishop saying,

"Your Grace,

Our priest said thus-and-such. I wanted to know if this is a new policy from the Vatican, or is this something your Grace has promulgated, or is this something our priest has introduced?

If the first, where may I read about it?

If the second, do you have a decision in writing that I may see?

If the third, may I implore your Grace to please intervene and ask our priest to restore the practice of such-and-such.

Very respectfully yours,
mg"

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 10:36 PM

I did tell him he was very rude..twice..as he was walking back up the aisle toward the crying women..he did not seem to hear me.

I do not know how to be a Swiss Catholic, which he is. I do not know how to be a Mexican Catholic..which they are. I know only how to be a bog-trotting Irish Catholic..and being a decent person trumps everything .

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: Beer
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 10:35 PM

Addendum: This fellow that calls "himself a Priest". should

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: Beer
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 10:33 PM

I am Catholic. That is I was baptized as one. Someone should have walked got up and went and popped him one. An uppercut would have been real nice. This fellow that calls should be thrown out and excommunicated. The church does not need bullies like him.
Totally disgraceful.
ad.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 10:32 PM

I think of my own ancestors having to worship in thorn bushes and on special hidden rocks...but at least it wasn't Holy Mother Church telling them they had to..well, this is the same parish, although not the same priest, that used to do the Nazi salute. It just gets nuttier and nuttier. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 10:07 PM

Write the Bishop. That's unconscionable.

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 10:02 PM

That's horrible. If the mass is complete why have any other service? Or do the Catholics still do things like matins or vespers or compline? I'm sure they do in monasteries, right? But why if the mass is all-sufficient? Or why pray at home either by yourself or with your family? Does he prohibit Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament? Praying the Our Father or Hail Mary? Saying the rosary? Unbelievable.

(NOTE: I am not a Catholic.)

Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: Amos
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 09:58 PM

Oh, please do; this is really absurd authoritarianism and bullying.


A

Subject: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 09:47 PM

I have just come back from Holy Day mass and witnessed to the most horrifying example of Catholicism gone nuttier. The priest got up at the end of mass,and told the congregation, which was composed of perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 Mexican Americans, that they were not to stay and pray their Virgin of Guadalupe novena because the Mass took care of any prayers. Well, so what if it was redundant..and he did not say so take the night off..he said this is a stern warning and on and on. They were not not to stay and do the novena. Everyone knows how important this devotion is to them. And what inthe world is a priest telling people not to stay and pray for whatever reason. It was so insulting to all of us. They stayed in a cluster after Mass. Some were crying..perhaps over something else..I don't know. It was rude and totally unnecessary and I am going to inform someone of this. I might write to the local paper. mg