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BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Date: 14 Dec 10 - 04:18 AM I was looking for a train in Doncaster one day, Brian. I found several, my first really good experience of trainspotting in England. Didn't see any obvious virgins there, though... But you're right about the other thing - church people can drive me crazy, but they can also do wonderful things. I've spent my life trying to teach Catholics about their religion, and they are aggravatingly unwilling to believe that Catholicism is anything other than their own narrow subset of preconceptions. Still, they can be amazingly generous and compassionate. When the going gets tough and they have to leave the doctrine aside and look into their hearts, they're fine. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 10 - 07:38 AM Poster appears to be Brian May Just as well they weren't looking for a virgin in Doncaster. I was told by a pastor once that the best, and worst thing about Christianity . . . was Christians. It seems to apply in the Catholic Church too. A a certain type of person a little bit of power . . . Either way, if praying feels good, do it - you're only accountable to your God and your conscience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: mg Date: 12 Dec 10 - 03:28 PM He absolutely and unequivocably was telling them not to do the novena that day. It was not a situation of oh, the Mass has taken care of the requirement...which would be fine...it was I am forbidding you to do this. You can not do this today. You must break your novena..which even too me sounds like a horrible thing to tell someone to do. But the major part of my religious beliefs is superstition laced with paranoia frosted with pretty rituals and used to be nice songs plus respect for my father'sancestors who went through a lot to practice their faith..and complicated by the fact that my mother's family was Anti-Catholic Protestant and so in more or less practicing Catholicism I am forced to reject the other side of my heritage which is fire and brimstone Baptist. I would rather say screw it and become a Unitarian or Druid but then my paranoia kicks in. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: kendall Date: 12 Dec 10 - 08:08 AM When I suggested that eliminating fear would be a good thing, I didn't mean fear of rabid dogs,or stepping in front of a bus, or ignoring chest pains. Those are survival tools. Also, there are Christians here, and I do not mean to trash your belief system. I'm simply saying it is not logical and I don't understand it. Please don't take this personally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: KT Date: 12 Dec 10 - 03:23 AM I live and work among Catholic immigrants who have similar practices, (rosaries, novenas, etc.) They are extremely devoted to their practices and their intentions are pure, and culturally ingrained. One of them shared with me that a priest told them that they did not need to be concerned about occasions when they missed mass, as they were doing such sacred work. While this was foreign to them, they expressed great relief and appreciation as they spoke to me about it later. Could it be, mg, that perhaps this man, no matter how clumsy his words, was not actually intending to forbid them their practice, but attempting to relieve them of feeling the necessity of the novena on that day because of the fact that the whole mass was already devoted to Mary? (this was December 8th, right? ) If there is any room for this possibility, and even if there is not, perhaps you could discuss it with him. I know you said you have no need to, but if you're truly concerned that this incident was damaging to others, then perhaps you could be an instrument of healing, for all parties, by kindly bringing it to his attention. Either way, I'd bet you'd both come away with deeper understanding, at the very least. Respectfully, KT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Dec 10 - 11:18 PM Absolutely correct, Ebbie. Still, the Virgin of Guadalupe, as the patron of Hispanic (particularly Mexican) Catholics, is a symbol of a people who have long been oppressed. It's another one of those head vs. heart things. "Head people" know that the image of Guadalupe is merely an image, and cannot be insulted. "Heart people" know that the image represents an entire people, who can can be (and have been) insulted and hurt and oppressed beyond imagine - and that's the point mg is making, not that I can say that I understand it completely. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Ebbie Date: 11 Dec 10 - 10:56 PM Keeping in mind that my religious background is Amish, a faith that fears and abhors the Roman Catholic faith, notwithstanding the indubitable fact that they emulate a good many of the features of the Catholic church they abhor- well, after that long, convoluted sentence, let me just ask this: A statue of anyone be it saint, secular hero or a commemoration of some sort is not alive, therefore cannot be insulted. Right? Shown disrespect, yes, but if that occurs the only apology due is to the community. Right? What am I missing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Dec 10 - 09:14 PM Bee-dubya-ell, Catholics are supposed to honor Mary and the saints. You know, it's kinda like naming rights for a stadium... The "official" Roman Catholic faith is very much a head-based religion. What's on the books is all very rational and documented and balanced - and in my eight years of seminary training, I was taught what's "on the books" - and it makes a lot of sense to me, although I don't meet a whole lot of Catholics who understand or accept it. Also, I have to say that what's on the books is usually very compassionate, and doesn't cater to the ethnic biases and cruelty and the harshness that is so often present in religion. However, what's on the books often tends to be unrealistic, and often tends not to hear or understand what's in people's hearts. On the other hand, the "unofficial" Roman Catholic faith is very much a matter of the heart, often leaving reason and logic far behind. It is an instrument of ethnicity, with both the strengths and weaknesses of ethnic backgrounds. It can be rich in folklore and tradition and family history, and it can also harbor ethnic prejudices and superstition and cruelty. Theologically, the "unofficial" Roman Catholic faith is a mess, and is a home for all the pagan beliefs that are in the history of the ethnic groups that call themselves Catholic. No wonder the reformers of the 16th century found fault with the Catholic faith. It's a very, very messy religion. I'm not sure which side of the fence I stand on. I'm thoroughly Catholic, and 16 years of Catholic education and four decades of supplemental workshops have given me a strong grounding in what the Catholic Church is supposed to be. "Intellectual Catholicism" is where I come from - but I've had a lot of contact with "ethnic Catholicism," and I've learned to respect it without fully understanding it. So, yeah, I've learned that the Hispanic community has a right to celebrate Our Lady of Guadalupe devotions, even though they seem tacky to my rational mind. And the Polish community has a right to celebrate Divine Mercy devotions, although I question the Americans who have scrubbed away the Polish roots of these devotions and changed them into something rigid and doctrinaire. They even photoshopped out the Polish inscription on the Divine Mercy Icon, replacing it with computer lettering in English. Benedict XVI (Josef Ratzinger) is very much a Pope of "intellectual Catholicism," and I feel comfortable with him. The highly acclaimed John Paul II (the Great) was a Pope of "ethnic Catholicism," and I didn't understand him and didn't like him. The Catholic Church is a big mess. It's not rational at all. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be. MG, even though I don't completely understand it, I do respect your point of view. I think you are an extraordinary person, and I don't mean to put you down in any way. However, I think the priest in question also has a valid perspective. You need to talk with him, and to search for common ground. I think you'll find it if you look. "Intellectual Catholicism" and "ethnic Catholicism" will always be in conflict, but it can be a constructive conflict if people take the time to listen to each other. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: mg Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:44 PM Here is where my maudlin ancestors are from..very close to the Gallarus oratory..I stayed with Mr. Collins in his wife's B&B and went on his tour..he pointed out where the ancestors are from. Some of the high hills above the oratory. Supposedly there are old Danish relics there as well. My great great aunt, after whom I might be named, died of making a novena in the wet weather that apparently involved walking for 9 nights around the gravestones. Do I want the same respect shown to new immigrants to the country that I would have liked my ancestors to have had? Yes. Do I believe in freedom of assembly and freedom of religion? Yes..unless someone is going to get hurt and then sometimes things have to be curtailed. mg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DAfHw4BOgg where maudlin ancestors lived for a long time |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:35 PM Heck, Joe, if ya'll Catholics don't worship Mary then how come you confuse the rest of us by naming churches "Our Lady of Whatever"? Curious minds want to know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:01 PM Well, the official teaching is that Catholics don't worship or adore the Virgin Mary. In practice, the opposite is true for many Catholics. For many, Mary is the goddess - often more important than Jesus or the Trinity. Being seminary-educated, I don't buy that. However, the fact of the matter is that many Catholics worship Mary, despite the fact that it is contrary to Catholic doctrine. For many Catholics, the rosary and numerous maudlin "devotions" are far more important than the Mass - again, this is contrary to Catholic doctrine. I'm afraid the Catholic Church isn't very good at indoctrination. Many, if not most, Catholics have a very flawed view of the teachings of their faith - and when priests and catechists try to teach them, they just don't get it. Their primal misconceptions are far stronger than anything anybody can teach them. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 11 Dec 10 - 03:53 PM Okay, how'bout "quasi-divine"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: SINSULL Date: 11 Dec 10 - 03:09 PM "Mary, the divine being..." What did I miss? This is new to me but I have been away from church for a while. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. Date: 11 Dec 10 - 02:46 PM If only you knew, Mary, what "these things" are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 11 Dec 10 - 02:44 PM As I understand it, apparitions such as the Virgin of Guadalupe are interpreted as appearances of the one true Virgin Mary, not as separate entities. As such, they are worthy of celebration, but not adoration. Mary, the divine being, is to be adored. Her appearance at a particular place and time is to be celebrated. In any religious belief system, not just Catholicism, if an apparition or manifestation supplants the underlying divine concept, it's a step away from healthy spirituality and toward superstition. It amounts to worshiping the flagpole and ignoring the flag. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: mg Date: 11 Dec 10 - 12:55 PM It is not a local matter at all. These things have a way of spreading and people have a way of enjoying dominating other people if they are allowed to. This seems like a trivial issue, but it was not. And I absolutely believe that stuff should be out in public so that it won't thrive in private. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. Date: 11 Dec 10 - 09:03 AM Anyone who thinks their fear is more important than the truth ... That describes a sizeable proportion of the U.S. population since 11 Sept - fear of Muslims, fear of Health Care reform, fear of neighbors, fear of their own showdows & etc - a fear stoked by the TeaBagger / BuShite crowd for political advantage. And it works a treat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: katlaughing Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:06 AM Not a matter to bully over, either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:47 AM Exactly, Beer. It's a matter for her to discuss within her own parish with people familiar with the situation, not a matter for discussion on a worldwide forum. It's a local matter, not one the rest of us can understand or do anything about. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Beer Date: 11 Dec 10 - 12:09 AM Oops!, Ask the Priest to join Mudcat and give his side of the story. Or 2) Joe, you get it and report back. Otherwise this thread has no conclusive ending except polarizing members. ad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Beer Date: 11 Dec 10 - 12:04 AM Well I will put forth two suggestions as it seems that it is between Joe and mg. 1) Mg. ask the priest to join M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Dec 10 - 02:30 PM On the West Coast of the U.S., most Catholic parishes bend over backwards to serve Spanish-speaking Catholics. It would be foolhardy to do otherwise, since such a large proportion of Catholics on the West Coast are of Hispanic ancestry. Most parishes have Spanish Masses, and and priests ordained in the last two or three decades have been required to learn Spanish. But there are slights and misunderstandings and insults at times. That happens every time humans get together, and more often when there are language and cultural barriers. You can either make issues out of them and use them as "proof" that others are horrible people, or you can talk things over and work things out. When I was in another parish, we had a deaf sacristan who would close and lock everything and put everything away and turn out the lights, seemingly unaware that the Spanish-speaking people were arriving for the Spanish Mass and this was sending signals that there were unwelcome. I suspect that the sacristan was not innocent in this. He didn't seem to think it was his job to have a welcoming attitude. Anyhow, that problem was solved with the intervention of the pastor. But we still don't know the priest's side of the story in the incident that started this thread. Obviously, there was a misunderstanding, and some people got their feelings hurt - but that's about all we know. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: mousethief Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:24 PM If I were God the first thing I would do is eliminate fear. That would automatically eliminate all organized religion. If She first eliminated ignorance, things like this would never get posted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST,999 Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:11 PM You`re right about that, Kat. I think one of the main reasons I do not go to church anymore is the ritualistic rigidity built into many religions. When I need to speak with The Boss, I tend to do so in the woods or when I hear the odd song that touches my heart. It ain`t a conversation per se. More like thoughts. No, I hear no voices--except in some of those songs. I`d like y`all to know I have no dog in this discussion. (Ever since I learned to mix metaphors life has perked up considerably.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST,mg Date: 10 Dec 10 - 12:58 PM No evil was assumed. No one was accused of anything they did not do on the internet. Behavior was reported. That is not an accusation of anything. I assume obsessive compulsion combined with rigid thinking combined with poor theology combined with cultural insensitivity in the extreme. I do not need to confront him and ask him for his reasons. He explained his reasons on the altar. I would love to go to another church but it is 30 miles away and I have no private or public transportation. I think we have an obligation to call various religions out, our own or others, when others are harmed. I can assure you that a large part of the congregation there was religiously harmed. One or probably two were crying. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Jeri Date: 10 Dec 10 - 12:28 PM "the priest is in a position of power, traditionally esp. over women. It takes a lot of self-confidence and guts to confront someone like that. " Kat, while I agree it takes more courage to find out facts from a person than embarking on a campaign against them, I don't believe it takes much more courage than facing up to the fact you might be wrong. For most of us, that isn't very difficult. For others, I think maybe it is. If a person isn't afraid to assume evil and accuse a person on the internet, they should at least have the "courage" to do the minimally decent thing and try to find out if their assumptions are anything but their own sour imagination. Anyone who thinks their fear is more important than the truth is probably going to suffer a lot in their lives, and share that suffering with others. Personally, I don't need it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Ebbie Date: 10 Dec 10 - 12:21 PM Let's drop an 's'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Ebbie Date: 10 Dec 10 - 11:54 AM Eliminating fear would inevitably lead to the extinction of mankind. Even caustion stems from fear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: katlaughing Date: 10 Dec 10 - 11:53 AM Maybe not...the priest is in a position of power, traditionally esp. over women. It takes a lot of self-confidence and guts to confront someone like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: GUEST,999 Date: 10 Dec 10 - 11:51 AM I think that asking the `offending priest` what was up would have eliminated lots of angst on this thread--possibly obviating the need for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:59 AM Or the relationship between myth, superstition and fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Beer Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:57 AM Right on Kendall. Might also eliminate most wars. ad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:44 AM How many angels can dance on the point of a pin isn't actually a particularly silly question - it's merely a colourful way of summing up discussion about the relationship between space and spirit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: kendall Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:36 AM If I were God the first thing I would do is eliminate fear. That would automatically eliminate all organized religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: greg stephens Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:48 AM To an outsider, this is all completely fascinating, rather baffling, and also rather disturbing. You certainly learn stuff on Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Van Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:25 AM Perhaps if you wish to worship in a different way you should find a different church. The priest tends to tell what to do not ask you what you want to do. (but he will forgive you in confession) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Bill D Date: 09 Dec 10 - 09:18 PM copying my own post from above: "When you intermix multiple versions of culture, religion and personality and try to satisfy ALL of them in one ceremony or institution, this is what happens. It saddens me that people can tie themselves into such intransigent knots that disputes like this can happen." and adding.... This is why some threads get so many sarcastic and/or critical remarks from the non-religious. If there can be such debate over tiny, technical bits of ecclesiastical minutiae,(and this is only about Catholic ones!) can anyone be surprised that many refuse to choose ANY of the thousands of incompatible alternatives? Yes...I know that, here in Mudcat, there are examples of 'reason' on religious questions, as well as off-the-wall arm waving about non-issues. I 'tend' to try to limit myself mostly to comments on bad logic and examples of attempts to impose religion on society-- but debates over whether one form of 'blessing' is too close to a Nazi salute, or whether one specific priest has 'insulted' a supposed 'saint' are what I consider to BE examples of silliness to rank with "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?.." I have struggled with myself over whether to insert my non-Catholic nose into this...so I waited to see if others would. They did.... I still favor religious 'freedom', but sheesh... what arcane icing we see spread on a cake baked with recipes from bad translations of dozens of ancient cookbooks.... Ok...that's enough, Bill...probably more than enough... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. Date: 09 Dec 10 - 08:43 PM BTW, You want jeffp, Kat. And if I may quote Joe: " we don't really know what the problem was in mg's church, because she has presented all of the hysteria and outrage and indignation and none of the facts." 'nuff said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: katlaughing Date: 09 Dec 10 - 07:31 PM With respect- We can state an objection to a person's post without making accusations. We can state an opinion without attacking a person. None of us can know what another person is dealing with at any given time. Our treatment of one another matters and can have an impact far beyond the visible, online posts. Well said, maeve. Joe, you are getting really personal in your attacks. Lucky you, having Greg chime in with snide remarks. BTW, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Dec 10 - 07:31 PM Some of my best friends can be very silly at times... Can't we all? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. Date: 09 Dec 10 - 06:24 PM Mg is a friend of mine...Cordially, Maeve Condolences. Cordially, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Greg F. Date: 09 Dec 10 - 06:21 PM Our treatment of one another matters and can have an impact far beyond the visible, online posts. Get a grip, girl. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: bobad Date: 09 Dec 10 - 05:26 PM You're welcome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: kendall Date: 09 Dec 10 - 04:58 PM Thank God I'm an Atheist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: maeve Date: 09 Dec 10 - 04:52 PM With respect- We can state an objection to a person's post without making accusations. We can state an opinion without attacking a person. None of us can know what another person is dealing with at any given time. Our treatment of one another matters and can have an impact far beyond the visible, online posts. Such was my motivation here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Dec 10 - 04:42 PM Oh, I did refer to the "rosary nazis" who attempted to force their standards on the rest of my parish. Like it or not, the term "soup nazi" has entered our vocabulary, and these rosary guys were every bit as obnoxious as the Soup Nazi from Seinfeld. I have seen many, many instances where "devotional Catholics" have been unbelievably obnoxious in their insistence on their particular devotional cult. The Divine Mercy devotions and the Medjugorje silliness are two that have been very popular lately, and there are thousands of other loony Catholic cults. The Guadalupe devotions have been around long enough to lose some of their looniness, but some devotees can be as obnoxious and aggressive as my rosary nazis. Now, there are some who are gentle and serene and kind and exemplary in the practice of their devotions; but there are many whose devotional practices are obnoxious, irrational, and aggressive. Those people give Catholics a bad name. Many of these groups want to take over churches after Mass for their particular devotions - excluding everyone else in the congregation and demanding that all others leave. The official policy is that the Mass is complete in itself, the official prayer of the entire church; and no other devotional services should be held in connection with the Mass - not even Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. Those things are encouraged at other times, but not in connection with the Mass. But we don't really know what the problem was in mg's church, because she has presented all of the hysteria and outrage and indignation and none of the facts. Not the first time that's happened. My words are strong, but there's a reason for that - mg is in a habit of stirring things up with little factual basis. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: jeffp Date: 09 Dec 10 - 04:30 PM Oops it was her 10:32 pm post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: jeffp Date: 09 Dec 10 - 04:17 PM kat, Joe didn't call it a Nazi salute, mg did. Check out her opening post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Dec 10 - 04:17 PM Whether she's anybody's friend or not, I think the comments from mg are irrational and hateful and intended to foment bigotry, and I strongly object to them. I repeat my suggestion that she talk to the priest and get the facts of the matter before posting anything more. The proof of the pudding is her previous, silly Nazi Salute thread. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virgin of Guadalupe insulted in church From: maeve Date: 09 Dec 10 - 03:32 PM Mg is a friend of mine, Greg F. Could be you could monitor some of your own "outrage & righteous indignation", eh? Cordially, Maeve |
