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BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland)
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:14 PM Well, Ratso obviously thought it was normal, which doesn't say much for the company he was keeping. I don't suppose he's had a great deal to do with real people except in the course of his duties, which only provide limited windows. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,mg Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:49 PM I am not going to say that it is not natural behavior. Perhaps it is natural, but it still can not be condoned or explained away or not dealt with. We have developed what we call civilization to stop us from some of our natural behaviors because they will chew up the weaker members of a society and leave it all to predators. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:43 PM You were justified in checking, mg - I had to look several times myself. No, it wasn't normal in my world either, albeit merely the sheltered moderation of life in psychedelic rock bands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,mg Date: 20 Dec 10 - 05:55 PM I had to read his words to see that you really meant that he said that. He did. OMG. We have to ask for thorough investigations of whatever groups think this is natural behavior. Of course those who are involved in it think it is natural behavior. OK historians here..how much of this has always gone on in the church, how much is protected, etc. and how much is the Vatican involved? This is not a few lonely Christian Brothers in the darkest, coldest most isolated cement buildings Ireland has produced to store its orphans in...I say again this is somehow endemic and how long has it been going on and protected? How much is it entrenched in the Vatican? To say that in the 1970s this was seen as normal? No, it was not anywhere I ever was. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 20 Dec 10 - 05:32 PM ... that is, according to the BBC recently. Wiki says otherwise, but is highly likely to be edited by representatives of the Vatican. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 20 Dec 10 - 05:09 PM "In the 1970s, paedophilia was seen as a natural thing for men and children," Of course it was, Ratso.. back in the good old days when there were no consequences, eh? Speaking of moral relativism, the age of consent in the Vatican State is 12. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 20 Dec 10 - 10:04 AM Pope calls on Church to repair damage of child abuse But interesting enough blames it all on 'moral relativism, sex tourism and child pornography'. I won't take the cheap shot of asking if he thinks that were the things his priest were engaging in before they started their abuse. But it leaves one wondering what he is thinking though. No word about the actively shielding of perpetrators and the ignoring of complaints. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:17 AM On balance, the RC Church is an influence for good How can the active propagation of lies, superstition, poverty, disease, suffering and general spiritual & cultural impoverishment possibly be for good? |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 20 Dec 10 - 06:55 AM When people refer to "the RC organization", I suspect they do not mean the parishioners, nor lay persons. I suspect they refer to the authorities in the Vatican downward to the bishops. While these church "leaders" are likely sensitive to public opinion, I suspect they are more concerned about keeping the support of the parishioners. IMO, that is why it is important for parishioners to aggressively lobby for change. Unfortunately, change runs very slow in such structured organizations. I would wager that placing a few women near the top of the organization would make a real difference. I would even go as far as suggesting opening up the top post to a woman. (But, I make such a suggestion with caution, as some in this organization may see this topic as taboo, as they would have to first be priests). |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Dec 10 - 04:42 AM "Jim was talking in terms of attacking the organisation as a whole" No I certainly am not - otherwise I would have been pointing my finger at members of my own family, being from an Irish Catholic background. I have never at any time suggested that parishoners played any part in the abuses, nor do I believe it to be the case. These are crimes committed by church authorities, from priests upward. "Not one poster is blaming the parishoners, the membership of the RC church". Quite rightly - but on other threads defenders of the church have stooped as low as blaming the parents of abused children for knowing about the abuses and allowing them to continue. There is no question of the culpability of the heirarchy of the church throughout the period covered by the abuse reports - that is a matter of record and has led to the resignation of several bishops, though nothing like all of those directly implicated. What has not been dealt with to any great extent is the role of the Vatican, regarding its actions (or non-actions) while the abuses were taking place and being reported, and more recently, in its obstructing the enquiries and continuing to cover up the truth. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 20 Dec 10 - 03:39 AM ""Not one poster is blaming the parishoners, the membership of the RC church. The finger is clearly being pointed to the abusers, and those in the organization that knew and let it happen (by some of the same abusers) for decades."" Maybe so, but my reason for urging caution was that Jim was talking in terms of attacking of attacking the organisation as a whole, and severely curtailing all its activities, as a read through his earlier posts will confirm. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 20 Dec 10 - 02:49 AM Just a reminder the Vatican considered it a great insult they were asked to cooperate with the Murphy report in the first place. And they only did cooperate after the demanded, and got, total immunity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:06 PM Sorry, it wasn't actually explained: "*Names marked with an asterisk are pseudonyms." The Vatican dictated the conditions under which the report could be made before they would agree to cooperate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:01 PM It was explained in the original full report why some names had been changed - pending outstanding court proceedings, I imagine, but I can't specifically remember now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: katlaughing Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:17 PM Interesting, Smokey, about the name thing. Suppose it was something to do with legalities? I couldn't find anything cite re' the asterisk by his name, but then I only scanned very quickly for one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:21 PM Good grief, they actually awarded him £10,500 in severance pay when they chucked him out of the priesthood.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:15 PM Chapter 19/Murphy report. Note that Walsh is referred to as 'Fr. Jovito' throughout. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:09 PM ..."and an even more miniscule proportion of the Roman Catholic Church membership" This reminds me of the much repeated RC "press line" you can see all throughout the web, used to defend the brand by minimizing the crimes. Fortunately, most folks don't fall for it. Let's be clear. Not one poster is blaming the parishoners, the membership of the RC church. The finger is clearly being pointed to the abusers, and those in the organization that knew and let it happen (by some of the same abusers) for decades. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:01 PM "you had you might be aware that everything I have posted on this thread has been directed toward the prosecution of those responsible for the coverup." I was talking about what is happening in Ireland Don; no argument with what you've posted. "Baby and bathwater ring any bells? Not much use if the bath's full of aligators. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: katlaughing Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:51 PM ake, while I disagree with most of what you post, I would like to point out that this liberal said, way up thread, that the RC needed to stop the celibacy requirement before you ever brought it up. Also, Joe, you would gain more credence, imo, if you quit referring to Walsh as "Fr." It is not so and is insulting to those he abused and to priests who are not of his ilk (of which there must be some.) I think it is far too easy for residents of the USA to forget we live in a very liberal society and that the rest of the world is, generally, far from that "free and easy." To suggest a parent in Ireland has only to contact the RC authorities and all will be taken care of, is naive at best. In such a patriarchal institution and society, a woman and her family can be destroyed by those in authority via shunning, calling on damnation they believe in, etc. And, guys, most of you are great and supportive, but most also will never truly understand what it is to be a woman in such a society with male dominance in authority from home to church, etc. It is not easy, even in this country sometimes, for a woman to go to authorities and be believed and supported. The guilt runs from the highest offices down to the parishes, imo. Anyone who was complicit in covering up deserves to be called to justice. It's incredible, imo, that the RC hasn't turned priests over to the law in the first place for criminal investigations. There is no defence for that, imo, Joe, no matter when it happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:03 PM ""Don't know how closely you've been following this Don, but here in Ireland the situation has moved far beyond your small group of men. The focus has now shifted to the cover-up - two full pages devoted to it in yesterday's Irish Times."" Don't know how closely you've been following this Jim, but if you had you might be aware that everything I have posted on this thread has been directed toward the prosecution of those responsible for the coverup. However, they still are a tiny minority of the Catholic priesthood, and an even more miniscule proportion of the Roman Catholic Church membership as a whole, and it is necessary to weed them out rather than tear down the whole organisation. On balance, the RC Church is an influence for good, so let's confine ourselves to removing the guilty, both abusers and accessories to abuse. Baby and bathwater ring any bells? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:14 PM "But we should not forget that all of this was the fault of a comparatively small group of men within the Catholic Church." Don't know how closely you've been following this Don, but here in Ireland the situation has moved far beyond your small group of men. The focus has now shifted to the cover-up - two full pages devoted to it in yesterday's Irish Times. The fact that the diocese knew about Walsh's crimes 17 years before they did anything about it, enabling him to assault many more children, just about sums it up; far from it being a matter of individuals, it is fast becoming a case of corporate crime. The surface has not yet been scratched yet. And it really isn't good enough for anybody to point the finger and say "So-and-so did worse things"; that really is scraping the bottom of the barrel in defence of the indefencible; who next, Hitler, Pinochet, Jack the Ripper. Far from this being over, I'm afraid it's ony just started - we have yet to see what has happened in Northern Ireland; and one day the Magdelene girls will get their place in the sun. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: mg Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:53 PM I have been wondering why the words honest discussion. I think with heated emotions there probably can't be a discussion at all..so why add the word honest? If people have true emotions, what could be more honest? Now, some of them will be dead wrong, but they will all be honest. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 19 Dec 10 - 10:01 AM "The abuse and the coverup are real issues, but they're very far from being the most important and the most urgent ones". To me, Joe threw in a red herring, Thacher. I don't know his purpose, (I suspect it was for comparison purposes). But, it is often a technique used to dillute the focus of in a discussion, in this case the thread topic relates to RC priest abuse. Yes, there are many important issues that impact human kind around the world. But, is it reasonable to deal with each one going down a priority list, or, priority by country? That would mean one would never reach action on most issues, only on a few priorities at the top? Or, is it more reasonable and productive to deal with many (or,all) at the same time, given our combined resources, the ease at which change can often be made, and considering our differing views on what the priority is, and their impacts on individuals and organizations? |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Jack Campin Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:42 AM I think Joe's comparison with Thatcher was entirely reasonable. By any imaginable standard, Thatcher did incomparably more evil than Walsh to far more people. Millions of lives wrecked and thousands dead, from gratuitous warfare, poverty and despair. Why the fuck isn't SHE in a cell, along with the gang of thugs she operated with? For that matter, the Irish power elite have done far more to ruin people's lives by stealing the country's wealth and leaving millions with no prospect of anything in their future but endless grinding slog paying off "debts" they did nothing to incur. Far more will end up committing suicide because of them than because of perverted priests. The abuse and the coverup are real issues, but they're very far from being the most important and the most urgent ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:35 AM "But we should not forget that all of this was the fault of a comparatively small group of men within the Catholic Church". The focus is frequently on those who were caught sexually abusing those in their care. Unfortunately, it is not on those that knew it and let it happen. Until the latter are swept from the organization, the RC church will never be a safe place for children, nor, IMO, the wrongs put right. What Joe O sees at as anger. I see as honest discussion, but maybe not in areas to his liking? Some are more comforted when discussion focuses on the "RC party line" that often seems to be put forward. But, I see that that approach will never cleanse the RC church of its real problems, inside nor in the public eye. One big step would be to "get over" bringing up the financial "costs" of the RC crimes to the local churches. That is a "cost to financially compensate individuals", not a "solution" to the problem, nor healing for those abused. Joe asked for suggestions for solutotions. Posters gave some good ones. From his reaction, it seems that they were not what he is prepared to hear, or consider. So, why ask the quetion, Joe O? There is some comfort in maintaining the status quo, that got us here...but, where does that take you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:45 AM ""But the matter of the bishops is different. Many were callous and cruel and deceptive, and they deserve to be punished severely. But many were not so callous. Many (at least here in the U.S.) were quite sympathetic to victims, and provided generous compensation and paid for psychiatric treatment and referred the criminals to the police for prosecution."" That's the best reason I've seen for investigating and prosecuting those responsible for the coverups. It would sort the wheat from the chaff, and while punishing the guilty, it would exonerate the decent, honest, men of God, and also show that the Church is not institutionally corrupt. Isn't that a resolution to be desired. Left alone as you suggest Joe, this cancer will eat out and destroy the heart of the Catholic Church. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:29 AM ""I'll happily tone down my inflamatory language when I see those who allowed the abuse to go on for so long and to the extent it did, are made to pay for their crimes, or at the very least, to apologise to THEIR victims - they still walk among us."" That is exactly what I want to see Jim, and sooner rather than later, "pour encourager les autres". But we should not forget that all of this was the fault of a comparatively small group of men within the Catholic Church. By all means let's hunt those men down and bring them to justice, but tarring the whole church with the same brush is a step too far. I come from a long line of Irish ancestors, and I know how the Irish clergy have behaved toward their flocks. I well remember the parish priest in Ballyclagh back in the sixties, going through the village and dragging grown men by the ear into church on a Sunday morning. I also remember the occasion when, one hour after our arrival from England one summer, the same priest was at the door threatening hell and damnation failing a donation to his church. My father committed the only violent act I ever saw from him, and kicked his arse two hundred yards down the road, with a promise of a repeat performance if he bothered my grandmother again. But I repeat, these are individuals, and it is the individuals we should concentrate on. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: akenaton Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:35 AM and your point is? I am speaking in general terms, and studies have shown rates of between 20 and 40 percent homosexual males in the priesthood. If you deny there is any link between these rates and the abuse of young men and teenagers then perhaps you should not be commentung here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:26 AM In that context you should probably be aware that Fr Michael Cleary, Walsh' 'mentor', another member of the singing priest cast and the one who was appointed to have some stern talks with him, once the abuse became known, on the subject of male sexuality, lived openly in the Ballyfermot parish house with his house keeper and their family. The son always called him 'father'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: akenaton Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:12 AM Still no answer on celibacy? Another elephant in the room? Priests are father figures....they should embody the values of fathers, understand how a family environment works. I would go futher and suggest only men with a wife and at least one child should be employed in the priesthood.....and paid properly for doing their job. The celibacy rule encourages people with sexual and psychiatric problems to come into the priesthood and the resuly is shown in these high rates of abuse of teenage boys by adult males. The answer is staring you in the face.....unfortunately that answer does not fit well with "liberal" ideology......so we must keep searching for any other reasonas to...."why this is happening" |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:15 AM Joe, anger for what happened is past? The evasion, the shielding and protection, bygones? You ask why parents did not go to the Guards. In 1991 a mother went to the Gardaí to report the abuse of her so by Tony Walsh. The Gardaí started an investigation and asked Mgr. Stenson if there was any record of previous abuse by the priest in question. Mgr Stenson 'evaded' the question (his own words here). I hope we're allowed a bit of anger over that. Not just this 'evasion' but for the fact this sort of thing was (is?) systemic and recurring theme in all abuse cases. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:04 AM > JO: Maybe once healing has begun, we can get some honest answers. I've tried to ask for honest discussion here, but it's obvious that the anger is still too strong to allow for honest discussion. > BS: Joe - why is this discussion "dishonest" just because we disagree with your forget-about-the-past-and-only-think-about-Now stance? I don't see how it's an unfair question. You've used the word "honest" three times in two sentences, and stated that the above discussion can't be honest. My question is why you think it isn't, and you still haven't told us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:46 AM Bonnie, whether you think my message is an attack against you or not, read it as if it were not an attack against you. I have no reason to deny any of the crimes that took place, and knowledge of those crimes is essential to any understanding and any effort to prevent such crimes from happening again. But dwelling on the anger is self-destructive. Despite the fact that outrage is a natural response to such a crime, the outrage will destroy us if we do not set it aside at some point and deal with the aftermath of the problem dispassionately and constructively. The crimes of Fr. Tony Walsh took place in the 1970s and 1980s. He was removed from the priesthood in 1990 and twice convicted and imprisoned for his crimes. The time for anger against Walsh is past. Now is the time to move on. How can his victims find healing - by continued retribution against Walsh and his ilk? How much healing does anger and vengeance provide? The underlying premise of your question is unfair and untrue, and I have no answer for it. These horrible crimes can never be forgotten or ignored, and I would never suggest that they should be. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:19 AM I didn't think - or say - it was an attack against me. Please don't put words in my mouth or twist my meaning OR dodge the question. I read it again. The question stands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:09 AM Read my previous post again, Bonnie - and read it without thinking that it's an attack against you. Overwhelming anger against crime in California prevents honest and open discussion of any preventive measure other than incarceration or execution. Those who oppose the death penalty or increased incarceration, are shouted down. Rational discussion of crime is impossible in the California political forum, and those who suggest a reduction of harshness are called "soft on crime" or "sympathetic to criminals," which is ludicrous. That's the same response I get here when I ask for a quiet, dispassionate discussion that might lead us to the truth. There is overwhelming anger against the crimes of child molestation by priests, and that anger is justified. I have no question at all about the crimes of molestation themselves. The priests who committed those crimes did a horrible, horrible thing and there is no defense for them. But the matter of the bishops is different. Many were callous and cruel and deceptive, and they deserve to be punished severely. But many were not so callous. Many (at least here in the U.S.) were quite sympathetic to victims, and provided generous compensation and paid for psychiatric treatment and referred the criminals to the police for prosecution. My bishop in Sacramento was like that. He did what he was supposed to do. Still, when the scandal got widespread coverage in the press in the current decade, every victim got an additional million dollars of compensation. In a litigious society, any admission of guilt or responsibility opens a person to limitless financial liability. If I have an automobile accident, my insurance company requires me to not make any admission of guilt, since that's their responsibility to determine. When I was hit behind by a pack of street racing cars, nobody could apologize - because to apologize in a litigious society is lethal. Even if you did the best you could, you open yourself to limitless liability. So, in the United States, the bishops can't explain even if they wanted to, because the price is too high - even though the amount already paid is absolutely phenomenal. But we need answers. We need to understand why this happened. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:45 AM Joe - why is this discussion "dishonest" just because we disagree with your forget-about-the-past-and-only-think-about-Now stance? I resent your dismissal of everything that's been said here as somehow not valid just because it doesn't conform to your views/wishes and tell you what you want to hear. And, interesting as your reflections on California prisons are (I don't mean that sarcastically) what has it got to do with child-molesting priests in Ireland? How is healing ever going to begin when people like you insist on ignoring the troublesome part of the problem - what happened Then - and only looking at Now? A new broom may sweep clean, but it also sweeps under the carpet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:10 AM Well, I haven't heard a single bishop give a credible explanation of what happened, and why so many bishops stonewalled the child molestation problem. I'm sure that some of it was cold, hard, and heartless - but most people aren't so steely cold. I think that more common responses on the part of bishops were:
-bewilderment, because such a crime is truly bewildering and impossible to understand -fear - the payments in the US quickly escalated to a million dollars a victim, so how could a bishop dare tell the truth and risk losing even more millions of dollars That's hogwash. Nobody favors crime or criminals, and nobody is unsympathetic to the victims of crimes. I have a lot of sympathy for the victims of child molestation in the Catholic Church, and I have worked to prevent such crimes in church and Scout organizations for many years by conducting background checks on people likely to be working with children (I did this mostly as a volunteer, but occasionally as part of my job). Nobody favors crime, but somewhere there is a line where punishment for crime becomes counterproductive. There is no amount of punishment, no amount of money that adequately compensate for the terrible evil done by a child molester, or by those who commit other horrible crimes. Even execution is not an adequate punishment. But when society becomes hungry for vengeance against criminals, it's a hunger that cannot be satisfied. Eventually, that hunger can destroy the integrity of society itself. Somewhere, we have to draw a line and stop our hunger for retribution and begin the process of healing. It feels like we've turned the corner in the child molestation problem in the American Catholic Church in the United States. The price was huge, and many lay employees lost their jobs because church institutions could no longer afford to pay them. The process is at an earlier stage in Ireland and Europe, but I'm hoping the American experience will make the process move along better. And I hope that some day soon, the healing can begin. Maybe once healing has begun, we can get some honest answers. I've tried to ask for honest discussion here, but it's obvious that the anger is still too strong to allow for honest discussion. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:09 PM MG: An interesting perspective. It seems reasonable that out of the many priests who abused, some, possibly many were promoted to high levels within the RC organization. IMO, because there are many inside the organization, some who have not been found out, that fear they would be implicated. These people could have a lot of influence. And, implicating people at high levels could be seen as damaging to the RC church. I suspect there is a fear that the (organizational) house of cards could tumble. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: mg Date: 18 Dec 10 - 05:44 PM I am struggling to understand the coverup mentality. Not why they become abusers themselves--I think I understand that part. But why would higher ups, especially in recent years, continue to hide this and not cooperate? I have to ask..what is going on in the Vatican that might be similar to all this? Are there rumors? Facts? It does not make sense for a church as horrified by sex as the RC one is to not make clean sweeps etc right away, unless there is some reason. Saving the reputation of the church does not cut it..it is ruined for the time being anyway. Fear of law suits -- I suppose but they have to know the wheels of justice will keep on turning and that things are not as suppressible as they used to be. Is it female-phobia? That at least they stayed away from women? Why weren't problem priests at least put where they absolutely could not have contact with vulnerable people? They could have counted money, or drawn pictures for holy cards, or made up more ugly songs for us to sing...Why the stonewalling? And I am not interested in why they protected the priesthood of priests..I don't mind for one that they do..as long as the priest can not hurt anyone it is fine with me. I honestly do not get the logic of trying to cover things up. Shame about any sexual behavior at all..sure..Trying to limit financial loss..OK..but it still does not add up to me unless there is something more entrenched. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: mg Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:57 PM I have two songs on the subject if anyone wants to PM me. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:36 PM Or an ounce of empathy, perhaps? |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Smokey. Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:49 PM Do you have children, Josep? |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:09 PM "Since I'm not Catholic, I don't give a flying fuck--if you catch my drift" Nor am I...but, I do care about the welfare of our youth.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: josepp Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:52 PM Since I'm not Catholic, I don't give a flying fuck--if you catch my drift. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:33 PM A good one akenaton. I would add,this is a problem beyond the civil nature of it. End the time limitations for RC investigating of abuse cases. Make the investigation process arms length, not just a "peer review" process. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: akenaton Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:28 PM "The problem has not gone away. What can be done to actually solve the problem?" -Joe Offer- Scrap the celibacy rule...encourage family men with family values into the priesthood, that is all that's required. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Ed T Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:28 PM "What can be done to actually solve the problem?" To start, open up the RC books up to scrutiny. Have an open investigation on who knew what in the RC organization, who covered up what and why. Initiate a major arms length investigation on what happened, including recommendations for change. Sack, or demote those who allowed it to happen and continue to happen from positions of authority. Put measures in place in all RC churches to limit the liklihood of reoccurance in RC churches in all countries. Accept responsibility and initiate arms length measures to see that those who were abused are helped and healed. Reach out to those who were abused, and never reported it. Link with representatives of (and organizations) representing the abused to seek ideas for change. Stop making excuses, or attempting to belittle these crimes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM Trying to separate past and present as though they have nothing to do with each other is denial. Seeking to deal with only the present so that you don't have to face the uncomfortable events that led up to it is denial. Refocusing the present in such a wide and all-encompassing angle that the original issue gets conveniently blurred is denial. Yes, of course society must "attempt to understand the causes of child molestation" - that's a truism so obvious and huge that it doesn't really need stating. It's also a great place in which to evade the specifics. You clearly have no idea how insulting to the victims calling past abuse "a dead horse" is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And yet more abusing priests (Ireland) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:15 PM "inflammatory language," I don't know where you are Don, but here in Ireland the victims of clerical abuse are still being treated with contempt by the church as a whole, and by some of the laity. Earlier this year a victim who attempted to protest at a service officiated over by a bishhop who was deeply implicated in the cover up, was shouted down by the congregation and told she should be ashamed of herself. The Vatican has recently said that they find the accusations that they were part of the cover-up "deeply insulting". One thing that has been missing from this affair right from the beginning has been a total absence of any form of contrition on the part of the church, who have largely treated it as a damage-limitation operation. Lives have been damaged, even ruined; as it has been constantly suggested that the abused sometimes become abusers themselves, we have no idea what future damage has taken place - and the sympathy is mainly bestowed on the abusers rather than the abused - "the old men". I'll happily tone down my inflamatory language when I see those who allowed the abuse to go on for so long and to the extent it did, are made to pay for their crimes, or at the very least, to apologise to THEIR victims - they still walk among us. Jim Carroll |
