BS: Child Slavery

Subject: BS: Child Slavery
From: Lox
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 10:20 AM

In Westminster today, the topic of Child Slavery is being debated.

Incredibly, there are an estimated 218 million Child Slaves worldwide, most of them forced into Agricultural work as a result of poverty, but in addition, just about every type of product that you can buy in a shop, is somewhere manufactured, either wholly or in part, by child slaves.

Primark is a particularly famous culprit, as is Gap.

I would like to take this opportunity to recommend that people check out where there goods are made and by whom before buying them, and seek out ethical goods instead.

An estimated 280 or so child slaves are brought into the UKeach year, and of these, a third end up in the sex industry, and around 20% end up cultivating cannabis.

So those of you who smoke cannabis, again, think about who you are getting it off, and where they are getting it etc ...

... I don't smoke it anymore these days, but if I did ... well I'd probably stop.

There are an estimated 5000 child sex workers in the UK.


There are things we can't do, but if, as I suspect, catters are as appalled by child slavery as I am, then taking the time to work out how and where our conveniiences are manufactured could be a good way to start opposing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM

just about every type of product that you can buy in a shop, is somewhere manufactured, either wholly or in part, by child slaves

Indeed - and, if you add to that figure, the number of adult workers in sweatshops and factories who also get paid a pittance for their work, then it can actually be difficult to buy many products at all!

I once asked a woman who shopped regularly at Primark if she knew that the Primark products were cheap because the workers who made them were exploited. She simply shook her head and replied that she didn't have very much money, and that the stuff sold at Primark was within her budget. I didn't agree with her attitude, but it was difficult to dismiss her reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Lox
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 11:05 AM

Its tricky Will, I agree.

As a male, I have been looking for a provider of decent fairtrade menswear, however it seems to be very hard to come by.

As for the womens stuff, it appears to be deliberately aimed at women with money to spare.

The fair trade stuff is often organic too, and the designs etc are not the kind of thing that you would aim at a poorer demographic.

The words "yummy" and "mummy" springg to mind ...

There seems to be a genuine Gap i the market for someone to exploit that could combat child slavery, and provide affordable clothes that appeal to more urban tastes.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 11:05 AM

People often try to tell me, in the work I do, that "racism is no longer a problem." But what color do they think child slaves probably are?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 11:08 AM

Naturally I don't condone child slavery, but if the products are boycotted, how will these unfortunate children and their families live? Many of the poor souls depend on the little ones' labour to put food on the table. It's similar to child labour in Victorian times here in England. The young mill workers, labourers etc here in the 19th Century were working to support their families. Child slavery is driven by poverty, and the poverty in third world countries is driven by corruption of the fortunate few who mop up all the wealth. We need to assist the formation of an infrastructure in these places which safeguards the livelihoods of the poor, and to pay more for their goods. eg Fairtrade. But how to address corruption is an ongoing problem unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Lox
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM

The more I look the more it becomes apparent that if you are a man and want to buy fairtrade clothing, the best you will manage is a teeshirt with a logo along the lines of "eco-warrior".

All the rest of the Fairtrade clothing Market is all about women, labels and a particular fashion idiom (sophisticated hippy I think).


The reason the faiir trade market iisn't getting anywhere is that there are no fairtrade producers selling straightforward leisure clothes (jeans etc) and no straightforward work clothes and shoes etc.


Eliza, The market that flourishes is the one that has demand. However, without a product there can be no demand.

We simply don't have the choice.

People in developing countries will make whatever product they are given jobs to make.

By developing a faiirtrade industry, you don't take jos away, you create alternative jobs for the parents so that the children don't have to work.

Besides, a child aorking as a slave brings home no money - they are a slave and there is no justifiication for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 01:47 PM

This type of boycott would be easier if we knew which companies are involved. Are there websites that address that?

As a btw, I do smoke, and the stuff I smoke is NOT the product of child labour. That said, I no longer use Nike products. However, I'd like to do more. This is the type of thing I take up with storer managers. fwiw

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 01:48 PM

Y'all are not helping the victims by creating a diffuse cloud of middle-class guilt. It's based on charges which are often vague and ever-changing, about conditions in countries far away where information sources cannot be trusted.

If there are 5,000 child sex slaves right there in the UK, then what they need is law enforcement, scrutiny of immigration, and social services.

These things take time, money, and a plan. Middle-class guilt, on the other hand, is free and almost no effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 02:18 PM

I think many child or teen slaves are people of color, but I also think that some of the fairest complexioned and hair are to be found..from Ukraine, Russia etc..in sex slavery especially. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Lox
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 02:47 PM

"If there are 5,000 child sex slaves right there in the UK, then what they need is law enforcement, scrutiny of immigration, and social services. "

Absolutely right.


"Y'all are not helping the victims by creating a diffuse cloud of middle-class guilt"


I'm not doing that, if you read my posts you will see that I am looking for solutions that I can be a part of.

Why is it that brionging up a serious issue is met by the cry "stop making me feel guilty".

If you don't want to feel guilty or read about the issue, then don't.


I am curious to know what I can do.

In particular, I am keen to know where I can buy fair trade clothes that I can wear to work, and that don't require me to buy into "hippy" fashions.

I suspect that I am not alone!

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,Morgana
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM

I don't think it's possible to buy everything fair trade. As many of you have noted, it's hard to find sometimes. If you can't afford something, you shouldn't feel pressured to buy it. That said, everybody can make at least one lifestyle change to help out other people. When you change one little thing about your life, you get so used to it, pretty soon you don't miss what you gave up.

For example, knowing that half of the world's chocolate is grown on the Ivory Coast, where they often use child slave labor, I've stopped eating chocolate for about three years now. Because the fair trade stuff is so expensive, I can't have it very often, and now that I eat chocolate more rarely, I've actually started to enjoy it more. I hardly think about wanting chocolate any more.

Maybe other things I buy have a bad impact on humanity and the environment, but I can take control for a few decisions I make.

(And speaking of the issue with there being a limited style of fair trade clothing out there, a good, cheap alternative to fair trade is to buy some of your clothing used. It lessens the impact on the environment and you aren't supporting companies that use slave labor.)

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 02:57 PM

Let me try once more. Does anyone know which companies are dealing with places that use child labo(u)r? If so, would you be kind enough to say which ones or direct me to a site that lists them?

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 04:32 PM

Posts were deleted because there was no name. One of them had the following link: IHS Slave Labor "Ignorance is Bliss"

And I found:
BBC 2 Newsnight "Child labour and the High Street"
Belfast Telegraph, "Child labour call over cotton firms"

It sounds as if the companies, such as GAP, use products made of things, some of which are harvested by slave children. Gap, for instance, sells clothes. I would guess than they pay companies to make the clothes, those companies buy cloth from other companies who may buy cotton from sources that use slave labor to pick the cotton. The start of the process is so far removed from the place where we buy the end product that there isn't a good way to tell what the story of that product is and who was involved.

Buy "Fair Trade", and I'd guess there's less of a chance forced labor was involved. It would be a good idea to have some sort of world-wide oversight on labor practices, but we're a long way from being able to do that. It may be easier to find some registry of "good" companies, and deal only with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 04:53 PM

Thank you, Jeri.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM

And thanks to whoever posted those links the first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Lox
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:31 PM

I don't know if you have PPrimark in Canada.

It might have a different name over there - it does in Dublin: "penneys" - and that was the original name of the company.

They sell super cheap clothes and their workforce earn their living in backstreet slum sweatshops for nothing ... oh and they're often children.

Its time this gap in the market was filled, because there arew a lot of people who would love to buy ethically produced clothing, but can't because its either out of theiir price range, or its just too "lifestyle" in its design.

It should be normal, and that happening depends on someone filling the gap in the market.

I will start researching this in the summer!!

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:43 PM

Let me know. I abhor the notion of child labour, Lox, and I certainly will NOT contribute to it if I can help it--and I'd go without before helping it.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:01 PM

"Mars, Hershey, and Nestle claim there is no way to ensure that their cocoa suppliers don't use slave labor. Many smaller companies use suppliers that are certified to be 100% slave free. Many critics say if the large companies truly wanted to do something about the slavery epidemic that they would be able to secure non-slave cocoa suppliers."


From one of the links.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:39 PM

Nestle has been involved in genocide for almost 40 years - supplying infant formula to developing countries. I have been boycotting them - seems like a LONG time. And one has to look carefully - they make al l sorts of stuff.

Child slavery needs to be looked at carefully. In the early 70s when all kinds of neat clothes made in India were cheap, I asked a friend, who had lived there 15 years, about buying that stuff. I was wondering about the cheap labour. But she said, if we don't buy it, they won't even have that - (amount of money). Are families barely surviving on the pittance the child brings home?

What CAN we do about this world situation? How can our respective governments make it better? If enough of us push hard enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:50 PM

I don't understand. How does supplying infant formula to developing countries equal genocide?

The situation in S Korea was something like India. The economies in these countries may not be anything like ours is, and that makes it very hard to judge. Slavery is an entirely different issue, but pay that seems like a "pittance" to us may be much more to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Lox
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:56 PM

Jeri,

Mothers who had a small baby, and enough money to buy food for one, were encouraged, instead of buying food for themselves and breastfeeding their kids, to go hungry and feed their kids the formula.

I remember this from years ago too - and it was a deliberate campaign of misinformation i.e. the mothers were deliberately misinformed about their babies health needs in order to get them to buy the nestle alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 07:07 PM

Thanks, Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM

From Wikipedia:

"Groups such as the International Baby Food Action Network (IBFAN) and Save the Children claim that the promotion of infant formula over breast-feeding has led to health problems and deaths among infants in less economically developed countries.[2][3] There are four problems that can arise when poor mothers in developing countries switch to formula:

    * Formula must normally be mixed with water, which is often contaminated in poor countries, leading to disease in vulnerable infants.[4] Because of the high illiteracy rates in developing nations many mothers are not aware of the sanitation methods needed in the preparation of bottles. Even mothers able to read in their native tongue may be unable to read the language in which sterilization directions are written.

    * Even mothers that can understand the sanitation standards required often do not have the means to perform it: fuel to boil water, electric (or other reliable) light to enable sterilisation at night. UNICEF estimates that a non-breastfed child living in disease-ridden and unhygienic conditions is between six and 25 times more likely to die of diarrhea and four times more likely to die of pneumonia than a breastfed child.[5]

    * Many poor mothers use less formula powder than is necessary, in order to make a container of formula last longer. As a result, some infants receive inadequate nutrition from weak solutions of formula.[6]

    * Breast milk has many natural benefits lacking in formula. Nutrients and antibodies are passed to the baby while hormones are released into the mother's body.[7] Breast-fed babies are protected, in varying degrees, from a number of illnesses, including diarrhea, bacterial meningitis, gastroenteritis, ear infection, and respiratory infection.[8][9][10] Breast milk contains the right amount of the nutrients that are essential for neuronal (brain and nerve) development.[11] The bond between baby and mother can be strengthened during breastfeeding.[9] Frequent and exclusive breastfeeding can also delay the return of fertility, which can help women in developing countries to space their births.[12] The World Health Organization recommends that, in the majority of cases, babies should be exclusively breast fed for the first six months.[13]

Advocacy groups and charities have accused Nestlé of unethical methods of promoting infant formula over breast-milk to poor mothers in developing countries.[14][15] For example, IBFAN claim that Nestlé supports the distribution of free powdered formula samples to hospitals and maternity wards; after leaving the hospital, the formula is no longer free, but because the supplementation has interfered with lactation the family must continue to buy the formula. IBFAN also allege that Nestlé uses "humanitarian aid" to create markets, does not label its products in a language appropriate to the country where they are sold, and offers gifts and sponsorship to influence health workers to promote its products.[16] Nestlé denies these allegations.[17]"

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Naemanson
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 12:33 AM

5000 child slaves in the UK makes me wonder how many there are in the USA.

I once heard a show, To The Best Of Our Knowledge, in which the reporter commented that he was standing in Times Square (New York City) and he knew he was within a couple of miles of several slave labor facilities. And that was adult slaves.

How many children are out there?

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 11:42 AM

Morgana, you're quite right. My Ivorian husband tells me that Malian and Burkinabe boys are sold or kidnapped to work as slaves on the coffee and cocoa farms in Cote d'Ivoire. Their lives are a misery and many die of fever, malnutrition etc. I didn't know this until I read your post, and my husband told me a bit more. I feel terribly guilty for all the chocolate I've eaten, ignorant of the sufferings of the young slaves to produce it. Apparently they're beaten savagely for not working hard enough or for trying to escape. They're locked up at night in tiny shacks, hardly able to get air to breathe.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 06:01 AM

Even if consumers boycott stores that are known to sell produce involving child slavery would it realistically make their suffering any less? I would be happy to if I knew that there was an alternative prospect like them getting an education etc. The problem is if a UK mother is on limited money she is going to dress her family and herself as cheaply as possible. Frequently I see GAP labelled clothes ending up in charity shops to sell on. Should charity shops refuse GAP labelled items or is that ok because the money made on the item (not a lot) goes back into charity?

Another form of child slavery in a kind of way equally abhorent is the use of boy soldiers, I wish that would stop too.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Lox
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM

"would it realistically make their suffering any less"

I think the best approach isn't to view Boycotts and fairtrade as a way of curtailing unethical industry, though hopefully that would indeed be the long term effect.

The reason for fairtrade is tat it creates an alternative market - or in other words an escape route.

Its our dollars that define the shape of the economy.

If we support fair trade industry, that will be where the entrepreneaurs will look for their opportunities and in turn, that will be the environment in which people in developing countries are employed.

We can create the alternative.

I am astounded that it hardly exists in the clothing industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM

Our dollars shape the economy, therefore - boycotts and fair trade help. We are here for the long term, after all. And I will buy any brand at all at a thrift shop - where most of my clothes are bought. The money goes to good use.

The main alternatives in the clothing industry are people recycling older clothing and other fabrics. Tamper Sustainable Fashion, a neophyte company by my friend, Gia Greer, is blogging how to make "new" clothes out of old fabrics in a simple way.

Isn't the clothing trade where unions started - the sweat shops, women locked in with sewing machines - burning to death.....

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM

Not just women, Dorothy.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Lox
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 05:41 PM

Thanks Dorothy,

I will be visiting more "vintage" clothing boutiques from now on - however, it remains a concern to me that if people wish to go and buy themselves some new boring work clothes, there is no ethical alternative.

We assume that the reason people don;t buy stuff like that is because they are either too poor or too prejudiced.

For example the woman Will Fly spoke to in Primark.

But in fact it is because the choice is not available.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 06:15 PM

It's simple Lox. All of us in the developed world bask in a collective lifestyle that we owe to our wholly immoral exploitation of the developing world. And we know it. But we are democracies, and no political party that committed to redressing this basic wrong would ever get elected.

One big step in the right direction would be to stop paying out international aid and instead allow developing countries fair access to western markets. Living standards would plummet as our imports rose and our factories closed, and thus the gap between rich and poor would be narrowed at least a little.

Until then, buy fairtrade by all means. It's strong on the feelgood factor, but alas it's no guarantee that you're not eploiting someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Lox
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 06:34 PM

"it's no guarantee that you're not eploiting someone."

True, but its a start.

The solution is to make the choice available.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 03:11 PM

First job - to jump on child slavery taking place in this country from a great height - and lock up the perpetrators and throw away the key.

The next stage is harder - the 3rd world sweat shops are symptomatic of abject poverty - they are seen as an alternative to starvation.

Cutting the supply chains will just replace one form of suffering with another.

International investment is needed to properly capitalise worker controlled industries - but with the governments priorities for international aid, this does seem a very high prioroty.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 04:57 PM

Is there really any difference between Primark and the posh shops, so far as the people making the goods are concerned?   Except that the posh shops take a bigger cut from the selling price.

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 06:33 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Child Slavery
From: Lox
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 07:43 PM

"International investment is needed to properly capitalise worker controlled industries - but with the governments priorities for international aid, this does seem a very high prioroty. "

I don't think we can rely on government.
I think the solutions lie with ethical private investment and enterprise.

On that basis I will also be looking at how my money is invested in the Banking system.