BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 03 May 11 - 01:43 AM

As a UK citizen that is precisely what he does! Unlike you, as you are a US citzen are you not?
Unlike the US, we don't have capital punishment here.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:21 AM

Ok, fine, you pay for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:46 PM

josepp: Unlike many here, I do see where you are coming from. I share your indignation at the excessive leniency that has been shown to those unspeakable young people and your rage that they should have been shown more consideration by society (and for that matter by some posters on this thread) than their victim or his family.

I nevertheless remain convinced that your proposed solution would go too far in the other direction, in both its excessive severity and its impracticality.

I repeat that, tho I am not implacably opposed to capital punishment in any conceivable situation, I consider it would have to be used with utmost circumspection and care; and that 10-yr-olds could not in any circumstances be considered liable to it ~ either forthwith or after a measured delay. I repeat that the fitting penalty in this unhappy case would have been something on the lines of their being held for their entire lives in highly disciplined, tho not inhumane, confinement ~~ as I said before, permanently held in conditions not unlike being permanently under armed services basic training ~~ & never to be allowed any hope of being released, whatever progress they may appear to make personality-wise or contrition they might express.

And the expense of all this would have to be met by society as part of its responsibilities to all its citizens, even those who have placed themselves beyond its zone of acceptability at too early an age to pay the ultimate penalty.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:22 PM

Or even in front of a donkey.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: kendall
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:57 PM

Fellas, it's useless to play the violin in front of an ox.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 08:51 PM

/////Oh. Now I get it.
10 Year old kills 6 year old. Found guilty (No doubts)
The sentence....
You will go to jail, and on your 18th birthday, we'll hang you.
That's really nice./////

Like the other fellow, you're oversimplifying so that your own views make sense, which they don't in the real world.

This particular murder was savage, it was beyond two kids not knowing what they were doing to this boy. The atrocities unleashed on him demonstrates that they knew precisely how badly they were hurting him and wanted it to hurt him in the worst way. It was a murder of the type where it is plain the perpetrators are extremely dangerous individuals--psychopaths of worst type. Psychopaths cannot be rehabilitated.

And it's not so much that they received virtually no punishment at all for what they did, it's that they were unleashed back on society with new, secret identities unwatched, unsupervised as though they matter more than decent people who didn't do what they did. Because the "civilized British society" holds its murderers in higher esteeem than innocent people as the Calvert episode demonstrates. It's what you believe and it's what Jim Carroll believes---sadistic killers are more valuable to society than decent people and if anyone disagrees and thinks they shoudl be eliminated so that they can't damage society any worse than they have already done then they are obviously not civilized.

You moralistic cowards. Afraid to do what's right because when it's all said and done, what you're really you're afraid of is that some big, bad god up in heaven will be mad at you. And it really is as simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 08:36 PM

////Civilised countries do not kill or jail children; what part of that do you not understand?////

Who are to dictate to me what a civilized country does or doesn't do? Have you read your country's history? Obviously not.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:25 PM

Oh. Now I get it.
10 Year old kills 6 year old. Found guilty (No doubts)
The sentence....
You will go to jail, and on your 18th birthday, we'll hang you.
That's really nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: kendall
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:38 PM

I think my meaning about evolution was quite clear.
So, you think locking a child up for life is a slap on the wrist?

Does it really make sense to be against killing and still be in favor of killing a killer? If it is not ok to kill, it is not ok to kill.
"Beware the man in whom the need to punish is strong." (Confucius)
Or, if you are religious, "Revenge is mine said the Lord."

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:14 PM

PS And they certainly do not judge them retrospectively as adults for crimes committed as children
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:12 PM

"WHY shouldn't they be executed now that they are adults?"
Becauseat the time the crime was committed they were children.
The law says they were not responsible for their actions and common sense tells us that ten-year-olds cannot be held responsible.
This was not a borderline case - they had six years to go before they could be judges responsible for their actions - that is the law of any civiliesed country - children can not be treated as adult criminals - and certainly not put to death.
"chidren who were old enough to know what they were doing was wrong?"
You say the y were old enough to know what they were doing was wrong - the law says otherwise.
Do you think all child criminals should be treated as adults or should the idea that children should be treated as children be abandoned - if so, at what age, you mentioned 8?
I don't know where you come from, but that is how it works in Brirtain, the U.S. Europe - certainly throughout the West - tell us how it works in your part of the world.
It is the law - do you believe that your personal opinion should over-ride the law.
                                              Civilised countries do not kill or jail children; what part of that do you not understand?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:20 PM

Me:"WHY shouldn't we "punish" them as adults"

Jim Carroll: Because they were children when they committed the crime maybe!!!

Ok. Now give me a REASON why that makes it wrong. You've repeated endlessly that they were children when they committed this deed. I think we all agree on that much.

What I'm asking is, WHY shouldn't they be executed now that they are adults? You seem to be treating their crime like they were caught shoplifting or something.

And stop giving me this garbage that they were abused. I don't care. Lots of people were abused as children and didn't go off and wantonly torture and murder a much younger defenseless child. That's not a youthful indiscretion--that's sign of extremely dangerous criminal behavior that has never proven n one single instance to have been reformable.

So again: WHY shouldn't they be executed as adults for a horrible crime they committed as chidren who were old enough to know what they were doing was wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:15 AM

////Will killing them bring back the victims? Will locking them up for life bring back the victims?/////

And that's your idea of justice???

/////An eye for an eye only perpetuates the barbarity.////

Realy? Ii would think that slapping perpetrators on the wrist because of their age might have had something to do with that.


////Apparently, some of us haven't been down out of the trees very long.////

Well somebody else said the language on this thread is too veiled so please tell us exactly what you meant by that.

///I say, lock them up for life with no possibility of parole.////

But that won't bring back victim--you just said so!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:10 AM

"WHY shouldn't we "punish" them as adults"
Because they were children when they committed the crime maybe!!!
"and perhaps we can be friends on other topics"
I certainly hope so Silas.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:56 AM

/////This isn't a second chance Josepp - they were children, and the mark of any civilised society is that it doesn't kill ten-year-old kids, or even punish them as adults.////

I know you feel that way. What I'm trying to get out of you is a credible reason. WHY shouldn't we "punish" them as adults???

Tell me this: Do you believe that the "punishment" they received was adequate?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: kendall
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:55 AM

Will killing them bring back the victims? Will locking them up for life bring back the victims?
An eye for an eye only perpetuates the barbarity. Apparently, some of us haven't been down out of the trees very long.

I say, lock them up for life with no possibility of parole.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:40 AM

////Yes Jim, we kill them because it's cheaper - among other things.////

Finally, somebody besides me on this thread with some damn sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:38 AM

////What's wrong with waiting until a certain age to kill a convicted child? For starters: It is a child.////

Erm...no, it isn't. He was a child when he committed the crime, He's an adult when he's executed. Now try again:

Why shouldn't we do this?

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:30 AM

Hey Jim, I don't have 'a side', these are my views and mine alone. If the persons you mention happen to agree with me I can do little about that, though it is distateful to have any views with Richie/Mark in common. Fortunatly for all concerned, this is just a discussion group and it matters not a jot what we say here because it will make no difference to the way things are.

So, I'll wallow in my barbarity and you can wallow in your piety and perhaps we can be friends on other topics?

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:23 AM

"Yes Jim, we kill them because it's cheaper - among other things."
Then we have nothing to say to each other.
I think your stance is barbaric; you think mine is holier-than-thou.
I support the the legal line taken by civilised societies, you have Richie Black and Josepp on your side.
Good luck!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:45 AM

There are other ways of resolving problems. Shipman and Spencer are two names that come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:57 AM

Yes Jim, we kill them because it's cheaper - among other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:44 AM

"Trouble is, this is a huge waste of money and resourses."
So we kill them because it's cheaper?
And not even an attemepted approach to the practicalities or implications of such an act.
Where does this differ om dragging them out of the prison van and stoning them to death?
"Well, Jim, we must ALL be victims then."
Or culprits, maybe.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:26 AM

This 'huge waste of money & resources' is unfortunately, Silas, a price that must be paid for maintaining a reasonable level of civilisation. As I have said, I do not oppose all capital punishment {I don't think so, anyhow} as resolutely as Jim; but if we are to have it at all it must only be applied with the utmost care and circumspection in exceptional cases; and certainly never in the case of 10-yr-olds, whatever their iniquities or previous 'form'. I find josepp's suggestion quite untenable, much as he may respond 'shrug' to my objections.

It follows, then, that I consider that these two little horrors should have been confined for whatever may remain of their lives in disagreeable, tho humane, institutions; subjected, say, to lifelong unvarying conditions such as those my National Service generation will recall of their army basic training time. The expense of this is, I repeat, a price that a society worth living in must pay.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:23 AM

There's a difference between never releasing, and killing. (It is interesting how those in favour of killing often avoid that word and use words like "roast", "toast" or "fry". Not "execute", "electrocute", "guillotine", but words which obscure the meaning.)

Yes, some have used the words "killed", "put to death", and "execute" in this thread, but those other words, too. And there is something very odd which I have only just noticed about that selection. Nasty.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:02 AM

Well, Jim, we must ALL be victims then.
No, the real victim in this case was Jamie Bulger and his family.
'I' didn't select him or anyone else to be a victim, it was those evil bastard murderers who did that. They have no right to take part in our society and if there is no alternative, they should be locked up forever. Trouble is, this is a huge waste of money and resourses.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:50 AM

Many here like myself with grandchildren or great grandchildren as in my case, find it hard to think about that poor child and what he suffered.

This wasn't a one off act of mindless vandalism by these two bastards, they had long since graduated from vandalism, bullying and petty crime. This was murder, not of a children the same age as themselves or older, it was a baby of 24 months. Tortured, beaten, sexually abused and murdered.

Neither of these two should ever have been released. Do you want to hear it again Jim, I would toast the fuckers.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:31 AM

"Sadly JIm, this thread seems to be making very strage allies"
If it is allies you want Silas - then you land firmly in Josepp's camp with your:
"I would like to see these bastards wiped off the face of the earth."
I see no condemnation from you for his horrific suggestion that they be held on a newly created childrens' death row for six years and then topped - an establishment equivilent of what they did to a toddler - only much longer drawn out.
You select the 'victims' to whom you give your sympathy very carefully - as do others here. As far as I am concerned, everyone connected with this case is a victim; Jamie Bulger and his family, the Venables and Taylor families, even the two ten-year-olds who carried out the horrific acts, they all have my sympathy to one degree or another.
But it isn't sympathy under discussion here, it is what should be done when children commit serious crimes.
Your solution is to treat them completely as adults - mine is that, as the laws of our society make this impossible, they must be reformed, returned into society and monitored in some way or other until it can be ascertained as certainly as it is possible to do so, that they won't repeat their crimes.
To me, it is you who is taking an inhuman and irrational stance - eye-for-an-eye is as primitive and as vicious as it gets.
You haven't said how you would facilitate your revenge - do we repeal the laws that make it impossible to punish children; do we ignore those laws when it suits us; should there be any age limit whatever (I think Josepp drops it to 8 - can't really bring myself to re-read his postings).
Phrases like holier-than-thou, do-gooder really don't cut too much ice with me; they are meaningless convinience phrases designed to avoid thinking arguments through.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:27 AM

An interesting discussion is going on on BBC Radio 4, "Start the Week" on the nature of "evil" in people, and the relation to empathy.

Start the Week

This is the programme site, and you need to find the link to today's programme on the right.

The discussion includes Simon Baron-Cohen, who studies empathy, and someone who works with inmates at Broadmoor, with others.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:56 AM

Sadly JIm, this thread seems to be making very strage allies. I find myself more and more in agreement with Liz in the fact that you seem to have no thoughts at all for the real victims of this case, the Bulger familiy. I make no apologies for the fact that I would like to see these bastards wiped off the face of the earth. you can protest as much as you want with your holier than thou attitudes, but to use one of your anologies, if it was your child that had been the victim ofthese shits, you may well be thinking differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 02 May 11 - 01:46 AM

You seem to have this fixation about their age which, frankly, I simply can't understand. If you want to talk about children, then children do not commit these sorts of crimes.
Kendall, its not revenge, its an efficient way of ensuring that they can never reepeat their crime and allow some other poor toddler and his fgamiliy to suffer again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: kendall
Date: 01 May 11 - 05:16 PM

Ghoulish is the word that comes to my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 11 - 02:59 PM

"No everybody doesn't deserve a second chance"
This isn't a second chance Josepp - they were children, and the mark of any civilised society is that it doesn't kill ten-year-old kids, or even punish them as adults.
If you are unable to understand what is legally or morally wrong with placing two ten-year-olds on a death row for six years then executing them, then I very much doubt if there is anything anybody here could possibly put forward to change your mind.
In the evil stakes, your suggestion out-evils anything done by Venables and Taylor by a mile
Thank you for making my case so eloquently (I do believe it to be the logical conclusion of much that has been argued here).
Penny S says it all for me, and far more eloquently than I could.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: kendall
Date: 01 May 11 - 02:27 PM

Comparing a stray animal to a child is beyond me.
Killing a killer is nothing but revenge, not justice.
No one ever has the right to take the life of another human being UNLESS it is done in self defense, and the threat to ones life is Imminent.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 01 May 11 - 01:51 PM

"Maybe some people do not deserve a second chance, but the choice of whether it is offered should not be in the hands of people with a shortage of empathy themselves. Empathy, BTW, is not a synonym for sympathy, but an understanding of others' minds. It can, itself, be found in nasty people, who use their understanding to hurt."

Hear hear - Well said, Penny.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 May 11 - 01:48 PM

What's wrong with waiting until a certain age to kill a convicted child? For starters: It is a child. Secondly, a wing or cell block full of children waiting to get old enough to die boggles the mind. On the other hand, it could be a real money maker; one could sell lots of chances to tour the facility and view the condemned. Maybe a spitting room could be provided in order to enhance the experience.

Oh, yeah. You have convinced me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 May 11 - 01:28 PM

So we take two children, with impaired understanding of life, so educationally limited, and make them live almost as long as their lives to the date of their admittedly horric crime, knowiung they will be executed at the age of 18.

This may make sense in a country where people can be kept waiting on Death Row for years, and then be executed when evidence exists that they were innocent because of due court process having been followed and it cannot be overruled.

This may equally make sense to someone with a similar lack of empathy to the actors in this case. Those eight years at that age are a very long time.

That rehabilitation failed is more an indictment of the way they were dealt with in prison. We don't know that enough was done, or tried to be done. If that story about the warder is true, then adequate car4e was not taken. How did Venables become able to download child pornography? These are people who have been failed first by their parents, and then by society. Venables should certainly be kept out of the way of doing harm.

Maybe some people do not deserve a second chance, but the choice of whether it is offered should not be in the hands of people with a shortage of empathy themselves. Empathy, BTW, is not a synonym for sympathy, but an understanding of others' minds. It can, itself, be found in nasty people, who use their understanding to hurt.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 01 May 11 - 12:08 PM

/////What is clear is we have a bunch of vigilantes with a lynch mob mentality rarin' to 'get' (execute or bang away for life) two children who the law prohibits from treating as adults.
None of you are prepared to bite the bullet and say (or even address) that you would be prepared to abandon the legal limitation as applied to all children - including your own.
Some of you have concocted pseudo- psychological theories to suggest that we are born the way we remain in order to justify this leap backwards.
Two of you make no pretence of wishing two young people executed for crimes committed when they were children - though one of you has added the rider "or at least until another inmate does the job for us and snuffs them out."/////

Here's where liberalism and I part company--the insane idea that everybody deserves a second chance. No everybody doesn't deserve a second chance--that's just common sense. SOME deserve a second chance. Others clearly DO NOT. And Venables and Thompson fall into the latter category, I'm afraid. Christ, we kill stray pets if nobody wants them because we can't afford to keep caring for them in shelters but these two shit globs have some kind of societal value and have to kept alive and protected at all costs?? Could someone explain this because Jim Carroll obviously can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 01 May 11 - 12:00 PM

////A sort of death row for children until they are old enough to be executed - oooooo; what a good idea!!!!////

So what's wrong with that? Listen, folks, instead of just repeating what I say with 10 question marks or exclamation marks after it try actually spelling out in English words exactly what is wrong with the suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:52 AM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 11 - 11:41 AM

What is clear is we have a bunch of vigilantes with a lynch mob mentality rarin' to 'get' (execute or bang away for life) two children who the law prohibits from treating as adults.
None of you are prepared to bite the bullet and say (or even address) that you would be prepared to abandon the legal limitation as applied to all children - including your own.
Some of you have concocted pseudo- psychological theories to suggest that we are born the way we remain in order to justify this leap backwards.
Two of you make no pretence of wishing two young people executed for crimes committed when they were children - though one of you has added the rider "or at least until another inmate does the job for us and snuffs them out."
I think this will be one of the few times in my life that I find myself totally in agreement with Richie Black.
"I think we remain devided over this sad case"
What a depressing world.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 01 May 11 - 10:44 AM

I think we remain devided over this sad case. Let's hope it never happens again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 11 - 10:43 AM

"I simply said these two should be put to death--they're not 10 anymore, are they?"
A sort of death row for children until they are old enough to be executed - oooooo; what a good idea!!!!
More later, when I've had time to digest that one!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 01 May 11 - 05:55 AM

OK Jim, this is how I see it.
I think we are being slightly side-tracked about whether kids are 'born bad' or not. To me it does not really matter. Personally, I think some people are intrinsically 'less good' than others – make of that what you will.
The point is, surely, that for whatever reason, these pair decided to abduct torture and murder horrifically a toddler. It appears that they were well known to the local police who seem to be powerless to do anything about their activities. I am not even slightly interested in how old they were, they clearly knew what they were doing was by any standards wrong, and if they had not been caught, it is likely that they would have gone on to commit further crimes. Now, we do not as a nation have the stomach for the death penalty, and it may well be that it would not be appropriate in this case anyway, but these murderers a should be locked up for life, and I mean life. They are already 'bad', exposing them to criminals inside the penal institutions could hardly make them worse. One of them has been convicted of downloading child pornography. Few people here seem to be aware of the implications of this crime (which should also carry a mandatory life sentence as far as I am concerned), and the victims of this type of pornography, it is evil bastards like Venables who perpetuate this trade and are as bad as the producers of these horrific films and photographs.
So what do we do in this country to help the situation?
We give them false identities at enormous cost, allow them the freedom to re-enter society under a government approved alias, and they are free to associate with whoever they wish, one of them could be marrying your daughter for all you know.
I would like to see them banged up in a secure institution forever, or at least until another inmate does the job for us and snuffs them out.
Hope this is now clear.

---

If you wish to discuss the subject, please do.
If you wish to attack another person posting here, it will be deleted.
If personal attacks are all this thread comes to be about, it will be closed. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 May 11 - 01:57 AM

Any Daily Mail readers present? Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 01 May 11 - 12:07 AM

////josepp ~~ are you seriously suggesting that someone should live knowingly under sentence of death for 8 years? Just think of the implications of that./////

(shrug)

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Smokey.
Date: 01 May 11 - 12:01 AM

It doesn't take much working out who hasn't had children around here..

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 11:46 PM

josepp ~~ are you seriously suggesting that someone should live knowingly under sentence of death for 8 years? Just think of the implications of that.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 10:53 PM

Lovely.

Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 10:47 PM

////I noticed earlier that you said that they should be "sentenced" now; you never mentioned the possibility of a new trial. So you are saying that if one does something horrific at age 10 (or age 6? Or age whatever?) and survives to age 20 (or age 18?) that person should now be killed?/////

If a person commits a vicious murder at age 10 or 8 or whatever, they need to be locked away until their 18th birthday and then executed on that day--no appeals.