BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 11:10 PM

""The United States of America" is an odd name for a country, but it derives from the fact that there were 13 colonies who joined together to fight the British, and they all considered themselves to be independent sovereign states, but joined in a federation."

Further to LH's observation, when The United States of America was created it was, in fact, the only group of states in the Americas to be so united. In fact, there was no other independent country in the hemisphere then. Hence the name was appropriate.

Finally, if the South had won the Civil War, we would now be the Untied States of America...

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:05 AM

To return to the thread's original proposition that the Vancouver riot is somehow a reflection of US sports values, I'm not personally aware of any riot having occurred in a US city which lost a major sporting event. Seems like US fans go uncontrollably apsehit when their teams win the big games, but handle losing rather stoically.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:36 AM

That's probably because they are too depressed when they lose to have the energy to riot... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:46 AM

This is hockey, right? Like rugby on ice skates with clubs? Who cares, anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:49 AM

To some people it's a religion, Art. ;-) I stopped caring about it by the end of the 1980s.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Janie
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 02:29 AM

Mrrzy, I am using this as an example of the dynamics on Mudcat (in my humble observations,). You are perceptive and direct enough yourself to understand this not a personal statement or attack on you.

Mrrzy's opening premise is outrageous, and I assume it was intended to be outrageous and trollish, knowing that Mrrzy is a very bright and informed woman, and not likely to ignorantly think the riots in Vancouver had anything to do with "Americanism," whatever the heck that means.

From the long history of the positions and posts Mrrzy has made on Mudcat, it is clear that she tends toward libertarian with liberal leanings. Because of that, most of the responses to her initial post have called her on the erroneous thinking, but have done so in moderate, non-reactionary voices, have failed to respond to her trolling in a manner that feeds the trollishness, and have not demanded that she own up to the trollishness. Because we perceive her in most respects as being aligned with shared points of view, we respond rather than react, and ignore the inflammatory factor, thus rendering it inflamable.

pdq did not react any differently to her initial outrageous assertion than would have several liberal or left-leaning members, had Mrrzy previously established her reputation on this site as being conservative or reactionary right wing.

An alternative and equally plausible explanation for the view expressed in Mrrzy's first post and the title of the thread is that she is an emotional thinker to the point that she has strong anti-American bias that significantly distorts her perceptions.

It seems to me the best explanation for the nearly entirely appropriate and thoughtful responses, vs emotionally reactionary and inflamatory reactions that turn a thread into shite in quick order, has to do with how we view the poster as much as how we view the idea.


Given all the above, pdq's reactionary reply is absolutely no different from the frequently seen knee jerk reactions of some of us liberal and left leaning posters when a conservative or right-winger posts a similarly outrageous assertion.

What I mostly see in this thread is the capacity to respond rather than react. Imagine a Mudcat where we liberals had the same tolerance for the errors or intentional trollish/provocateur postings of conservatives and reactionary right-wingers as we extend to people with the same traits who happen to have more in common with our our liberal or leftist leanings.

The responses to Mzzry largely offer gentle correction, does not put her on the spot for her trollishness, and therefore make her defensive. The reactions to pdq's posts, which are entirely in the same vein as Mzzry's initial posts are very different.

Why is it ok to tolerate the irrational thinking and inflamatory posts of a liberal without disparaging that person, while it is not ok to extend the same toleration to a conservative?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 02:47 AM

Excellent point, Janie. I've been wondering the same thing for a long time. I think it's a lot like a village of people who will willingly pardon one of their own, but stone a "heretic" or an outsider...for really doing the same thing as one of their own would, but supposedly not in the "approved" manner. It isn't what you do that counts under such circumstances. It's who you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Max Johnson
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 08:45 AM

It's not about Football or Soccer or Ice Hockey or, God forbid, Cricket.
It's about tribes.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 10:33 AM

Yup. Tribal consciousness. People in groups tend to act more stupidly and aggressively than people on their own. The same is true of dogs, come to think of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 11:06 AM

I agree with tribal but wonder why in the UK, the aggressive behaviour seems to be more common amongst football than say rugby supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM

Ummm....Janie.... pdq's first two posts were personal attacks on Mrzzy's basic character.
You suggest that: "pdq's reactionary reply is absolutely no different from the frequently seen knee jerk reactions of some of us liberal and left leaning posters when a conservative or right-winger posts a similarly outrageous assertion."
1) It IS different from most replies I remember seeing insofaras it adds language like " moronic, hateful, Anti-American crap from one of Mudcat's more pathetic bigots.", that is personal attacks that sometimes get entire posts deleted.
2) It is a basic error to suggest that others "would have" reacted similarly in imaginary circumstances. A pre-emptory ad hominem?? *grin*

Mrrzy started on the wrong foot...pdq escalated it by name calling instead of simply debating the point and providing counter examples as several others did. Like some of the actual donnybrooks noted in the links, this group has slipped into a virtual version. Good thing there are no chairs or bottles to be wielded here. ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 01:54 PM

I took Mrrzy's opening post as heavily tongue-in-cheek rather than in-your-face aggressive. A version of the normal pub talk (in the British Isles anyway) in which men routinely insult each other as a way of being friendly. Which can be risky when you aren't in the right company.
............................

"I agree with tribal but wonder why in the UK, the aggressive behaviour seems to be more common amongst football than say rugby supporters. "

It's often suggested that this is because in rugby the violence is carried out on the field of play, so spectators don't feel it necessary to indulge in it afterwards. But that can't apply in this case, since the level of violence that seesm routine in ice hockey matches in North America eclipses anything that would be permitted in any rugby match. (Or indeed any ice hockey match elsewhere, I suspect.)

Normally sporting riots tend to be between neighbouring teams playing Derby matches - the odd thing here is that the teams whose clash triggered this riot were so geographically distant. You can't get much further from Vancouver than Boston and still remain in the same continent.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Max Johnson
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 02:36 PM

Jon - They say that Rugby is a game for hooligans played by gentlemen.
Also, that Football is a game for gentlemen played by hooligans, that Cricket is a game for gentlemen played by gentlemen and that Ice hockey is a game for hooligans played by hooligans.
I suspect that large football stadia are more plentiful and are a more handy battleground. Also that the vast majority of fans just want to go and support their team. With their family if they're lucky enough to have a family that's interested.
A lot of the recent trouple between Scottish fans is about religious sectarianism, not about football. Between Italian fans or Spanish fans, it's political.
I can understand it even if I don't condone it, but what really troubles me is that it's starting to happen at test cricket matches. Unthinkable.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 02:50 PM

I can understand it even if I don't condone it, but what really troubles me is that it's starting to happen at test cricket matches. Unthinkable.

Cricket is one of very things I might at times consider myself "British" about. It's Unthinkable as you say...

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Janie
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 04:20 PM

Bill, I understand that and am not condoning pdq's behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 04:58 PM

"A lot of the recent trouple between Scottish fans is about religious sectarianism, not about football."

I don't really buy that to tell you the truth. Yes there is a sectarian base to it but football is where it manifests itself. You simply can't divorce football from the sectarianism. There was a programme on several years ago highlighting supposedly anti-Catholic Rangers bigots and the TV crew were astonished to find that one of the ring leaders was married to a Catholic. The bigotry he showed mainly centered around the football. It's too easy a cop out for the clubs and fans to say it isn't about football it is jsut society. Admittedly I don't live in the west where the real problems are but as youngsters I had a bunch of mates and most of us supported one or toher of the Glasgow teams. Everyone would get on fine until Old Firm derby day then hell would break out - then it was fine the next day again!

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Alan Conn
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 05:23 PM

"I agree with tribal but wonder why in the UK, the aggressive behaviour seems to be more common amongst football than say rugby supporters. "

Often the fanbases have been different. For instance in Scotland football was the urban game where working class lads would go off to blow off steam. Rugby in the cities was played and watched by the more well off - or at least those from less disadvantaged areas. The only Scottish exception being my area in the Borders where rugby is the main working man's game. There are other big exceptions elsewhere too - for instance industrial south Wales is rugby mad and rugby league is very popular in the northern English cities. So like all stereotypes it doesn't fit the bill but I think it is safe enough to say that a young lad looking for a rumble in a big urban area is more likely to find it at football as he is more likely to go to football - and likewise anyone else likely to be drawn to that would know where to go. It is cultural too. For a while in the 80s a minority of England fans seemed to plan trouble. It was deliberate. On the other hands Scotland fans had been in trouble more for general drunkeness and over exubirant celebrations. The Scotland fans never developed the lets go and deliberately cause a riot habit of the 80s. Probably perversely because they saw England fans doing it and didn't want to be tarred with that brush. In fact they then seemed to make a real effort not to cause trouble. Never stopped them at club level of course:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 06:46 PM

Interesting Conn, thanks.

Btw, the first bit of football hooliganism was none of this urban stuff.

It was good old (N Wales) village stuff - Machno United vs Pydew Rovers I'd guess around 1970. I was just a kid and I haven't a clue what started it but the Machno supporters threw stones at the Pydew coach we were on as it drove away.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 06:58 PM

Americanism is certainly rife on the Mudcat. I just had my 'Green Lantern' thread turned into a 'Movie: Green Lantern' thread. We don't have Movies in the UK - We have pictures, films and flicks.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 08:44 PM

Dave the Gnome, go to www.bbc.co.uk/search/news/?q=movies

Count the number of times 'movies' appears; Americans usage is updating the dialects spoken in those little islands off the coast of Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 09:03 PM

I will never understand why a gang of adults gets so upset over a silly ball kicking thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 09:16 PM

Because they are subliminally upset about a lot of other stuff, and it gives them a convenient outlet.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 11:55 PM

I'm not a sports fan, but I do acknowledge that it's the only thing that keeps some people from eating a can of Drano.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:03 PM

"I blame the Americans for imperialistically spreading their personal-freedom-is-more-important-than-social-responsibility attitude."

I blame the people at the game. Most of 'em would have been Canadians. We can fuck up all by ourselves with no help from the Americans, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:25 PM

There was something on the news here that said the instigators weren't even hockey fans. They just figured tempers were hot and took advantage.

To blame Americans for getting Canadians to act badly is pretty arrogant. As if Canadians are easily controlled or just stupid. Bad behavior is just a human possibility, not confined to one nation, one sport's fans or one anything.

I also heard on the news that lots more people volunteered to help clean up the mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:32 PM

Who is to blame? It should be obvious to most folks here at the Mudcat: George W. Bush, of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:36 PM

That's funny, DougR!!

But of course, wildly off-base. THe inventory of Geeorge Junior's sins and crimes and blaring gaffes and rampant stupidities is surely one of the longesat in our history of Presidential malfeasance, but even so does not extend to having much influence on Canadians, except by driving US citizens of conscience and sensibility across the border to become residents there.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:37 PM

Mrrzy,   Canadians are generally, very peaceful and orderly. About the only thing they do riot about is hockey. But they certainly do riot over hockey and it has nothing to do with the USA. I'm not sure why they do that. I have never felt the urge. But I suspect it is that in a very reserved society, If a young man gets worked up over a certain threshold, he no longer knows how to reign himself in. I think the Vancouver Police plan to look closely at the photos and videos and make public examples of the perps with help the next group of hockey fans in their quest to govern their own testosterone.

PDQ, "moronic", "hateful", "bigot", "racist" Isn't that more than a little over the top? If you are trying to decrease conflict in the Mudcat, calling people such strong names is not a productive approach. However if your aim is to emulate hateful, bigoted, moronic and racist assholes like Beck and Limbaugh, then by all means carry on. What you are doing may be childish, but it is entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Stu
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 03:02 PM

"Because they are subliminally upset about a lot of other stuff, and it gives them a convenient outlet."

Blimey . . . so me being upset because Big Eck defected from the Blues to the mighty Villa, then thinking about it a bit and then feeling that we might as well get behind the lad because he had rag all to work with at Small Heath and our team and youngsters are a different class and then feeling a little happier means . . . I've reconciled some internal subconscious conflict and am now at peace with my id and ego?

That's bostin that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bert
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 03:57 PM

...then there is something wrong with sports...

The thing wrong is that there is only one sport. No matter the shape of the ball, the field, the rink, pool, track or whatever.

The only game nowadays is "How many steroids can you take without getting caught"

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 04:18 PM

So much cynicism from such a little place. Y'all ought to be writin protest songs! :-p

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 04:36 PM

The only game nowadays is "How many steroids can you take without getting caught"

Not quite. There's still Hurling, and Gaelic Football. And even in football (aka soccer) the only real hassles they seem to have about drugs are about them being used recreationally by players.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 04:51 PM

In the news... over 1M riot photos submitted to the pOlice. Six high profile peeps have surrendered to the pOlice... no charges laid as yet.

I wonder if they have any pics of Jean choking anyone? (Canuck joke eh?)

Meanwhile, Canuckistan is shooting and bombing peeps in Afghanistan... Libya...... it's fucking sick and unreal.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 05:32 PM

The only game nowadays is "How many steroids can you take without getting caught"

Again, Not quite.

In the U.S. there's also the very popular game "What obscenely large pots of money can be paid to adult men (and less often women) for playing childrens' games."

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 05:33 PM

That's funny, DougR!!

Funny? Not hardly.

Inane, yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 10:15 PM

"Jean choking anyone?" .... good one gnu

... and I agree with your Canuckistan line ... it is fucking sick and unreal.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 01:56 PM

Sports, I think, are intended to sublimate our violent us/them urges...

I would like to substitute the age war. Let's have all the youth on one side and all the grown-ups on the other.

That way, at *some* point, you have to change sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 02:12 PM

Unless you die young...

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:28 PM

>>>I would like to substitute the age war. Let's have all the youth on one side and all the grown-ups on the other.

That way, at *some* point, you have to change sides. <<

They did that already. They called it "The Sixties"

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 05:18 PM

Yeah, but those kids forgot to change sides! Did a little too much LDS...

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 09:05 PM

Too much LDS? So the Mormons were responsible for all that weird stuff that happened in th '60s, huh? Who'da thunk it?

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: olddude
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 09:39 PM

It has nothing to do with Americans, Canadians or anything else. It happens everywhere. Have a look at the world cup games, there have been many riots. I have a different take. I think it is a group of criminals that use it as an excuse to loot. It happens in every country. In America as many other countries. We put our sins in the front window for everyone to see. That is a good thing, because then we can be appalled by such behavior and try to prevent it in the future. As others also do. This had little to do with sports, it is like what has happened here in America over the NBA final, an excuse to commit crime and loot store fronts. If there are a large group of people rioting, then the criminals can get away with it .. my take.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 06:02 AM

Football hooligans in the UK rarely seem to go in for looting as opposed to mayhem against each other.

A different phenomenon to what appears to have happened in Vancouver, which seems to have been more about smashing or nicking property, with violence towards people being mainly against people who tried to stop that, rather than between fans of the different teams.

Of course that is based on media coverage of one sort or anther which might have distorted what was really going on. It generally does.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 08:28 AM

By and large (Celtic/Rangers and Millwall fans the exception) football supporters are generally much better than they were in the 70's and 80's. I remember going on a date to a Bristol City football match back in 1970/1 and it was the most intimidating experience I'd ever known it so unnerving not enjoyable at all with vicious little skirmishes going on all the time. Not only was security not great back then Stadiums were not too hot on Health and Safety either. I do remember skinheads being forced to remove steel capped boots or thrown out only to cause trouble outside of the ground.

I realise that it is probably not like that now but if I want to watch a match I do it from the comfort of my chair. Crowds do appear to be more controlled these days so that the whole family can enjoy it without fear of getting in the way of any mindless violence but I vowed after that first game I went to that I would never want to ever do that again.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 11:33 AM

For many years I have seen United States sporting events on television, from baseball to Indy cars, and have been consistently impressed with the way in which Americans have turned their sporting occasions into family days out.

I have rarely seen any sign of violent behaviour, though of course I can't speak to the question of what happens after the match.

I would however be much happier taking my ten year old grandson to an American sports event, than to an English football match.

And surely the level of violence involved in Canadian ice hockey is legendary?

Ducks, and runs for cover.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 12:00 PM

Patsy
you think that was bad. How about having your daughter as an NFL cheerleader. Dang I nearly went postal a couple of times from drunk fans next to me shouting stuff. They found out pretty fast that was my kid ... glad those days are over

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:15 PM

As a reformed fan and poster owner of the Dallas Cowboy's Cheerleaders. I am inclined to say that they have a lot more in common with Playboy than Sports Illustrated ESPN the Magazine.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:20 PM

Don... "And surely the level of violence involved in Canadian ice hockey is legendary?"

Unfortunately yes. Also unfortunate is the level it was raised to when I decided I wouldn't watch it anymore. It became a TV freak show that was all about the brawls. Same thing happened in baseball. I'd say it was TVism and $ism.

Still, the rioting is unacceptable. I hope the penalties are harsh and well publicized with names and pics.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:25 PM

I was wondering if there is any connection between the riot and the recent election result.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Americanism Spread THIS far?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:30 PM

I was wondering if there is any connection between the riot and the recent election result.

I don't live in Vancouver. But I lived most of my life in Canada. I am pretty sure the answer to that is "no." Hockey goons, on or off the ice, don't give a rats ass about politics.