BS: Social Security and the Deficit

Subject: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 01:43 PM

THe only connection that I can see between Social Security and the deficit is that the FEds keep grebbing surplus SS funds, and have to pay interest on these monies.SS, has been self-supporting for 70-odd years, and could continue to be indefinitely with a few minor tweaks---like raising the upper income limit of those who pay into it.

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 01:49 PM

The GOP is not being logical.... or truthful.

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 02:01 PM

When Social Security started in 1938, there were 43 workers paying in for each person receivng benefits.

That number has fallen continuously ever since. Now about 3 1/2 workers for every recipient, soon to be only 3.

As somebody at NASA said: "we have a problem".

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 02:10 PM

Soooo... if the cheque bounces, does that mean that SS is cut off and gov't employees don't get paid?

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 02:17 PM

The Debt limit is a limit on borrowing money.

The Fedaral government still gets 57¢ for each dollar it spends so it can still spend that 57¢ with no problems.

Who get paid is probably the choice of the Executive branch, essentially Obama.

If he orders the military and the Social Security to not send out the checks, there will be Hell to pay.

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 03:54 PM

Social Security is solvent...

The rest of the US government??? Not so... Two *unfunded* wars and *unfunded* tax cuts have left it borrowing and borrowing from Social Security...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:04 PM

At this point I would suggest the first checks NOT to go out would be both houses of Congress and the Executive Branch. By this I mean not only the office holders but all of their personnel and staffers as well. Its one thing for some congressman not to get pid but how about they explain to all of their people face to face how it is that they can't get their shit together.

Please don't tell me why this is dumb, I know that as I also know it wouldn't work or do any good. It is just how I feel at the moment. I am sure that the one thing which will be true when all the smoke clears..........All us dumbfucks, the great middle and unwashed of America, will be paying for it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:35 PM

That was my first thought, Spaw. Those that can throw cruise missiles around like snowballs should be the first to get their paycheque cut.

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:37 PM

pdq. there's enough in SS coffers to pay out 100% for the next 25 years.Yes, there's some fixing to do. But what in hell does it have to do with the budget?

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:39 PM

Catspaw. It is not the Democrat's fault. It is not even Congress' fault. Its those Tea Bag sucking idiots who have been electing other idiots on the "drown government in a bathtub platform." Its a suicide bomber mentality. It is easier to defend against a nutjob with explosives around his waist then it is to defend against a bunch of economic illiterates who want to destroy the economy to save it.

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:41 PM

Then explain why Social Security was forced to borrow $41 billion last year to meet its obligations. First time it has borrowed money for the period of a year.

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:42 PM

The folks who have brought on this manufactured crisis, Spawzer, are the freshman Tea Partiers and guess what??? This crop of freshman is the richest, by far, incoming House freshman class ever with average net worth of $1.4M!!!

They don't care about the $$$ they get from the government... They are drowning in cash already...

Yo, Dick...

No there isn't enough money in the "coffers" to pay out even the next two months.... It has all been borrowed...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:43 PM

>>>From: pdq - PM
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 02:17 PM

The Debt limit is a limit on borrowing money.

The Fedaral government still gets 57¢ for each dollar it spends so it can still spend that 57¢ with no problems.

Who get paid is probably the choice of the Executive branch, essentially Obama.

If he orders the military and the Social Security to not send out the checks, there will be Hell to pay. <<<

If you think that the borrowers come before the people, employees, military or entitlements beneficiaries, you don't deserve to live here. On the other hand. If the Borrowers don't get paid. The economy collapses. We would have to start over with some kind of barter system.

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:44 PM

Yeah I know Jack........


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:31 PM

Great idea, Spaw! I know it wouldn't work, either, but it would be nice if they had to even *think* it could happen.

Obama will invoke the 14th and SS etc. will continue to send out checks. Even the plain, old GOP is getting tired of the PeePottyers and is giving them hell, even if it might be a mild hell, about it.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: SOcail Security and the Deficit
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:44 PM

Obama has stated that he wouldn't use the Constitutional option but he might be bluffing... No, actaully he said that it was his "opinion" that the option wasn't there for this usage... I donno???

Tell ya' what... I'd do it in a hearbeat and if he does do it then I'd be willing to bet that his approval ratings would jump by 20 points overnight...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:58 PM

The 14th Amendment says that the Federal Government must honor its debts.

The problem right now is that the ceiling keeps the government from increasing the National Debt.

Not the same thing.

If Sears cuts off your credit until you pay your old bill, they are simply asking you to honor your existing debt. Building up more debt is not the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 06:10 PM

Ahhhh... so what's all this in the news about defaulting on the existing debt payments?

No, nevermind. I don't wanna know. I am a Canuck and I have enough government ineptitude and corruption to worry about. If you Yanks fuck over the world economy, I'll hear about it soon enough.

I guess I shoulda bought a ticket to the U2 concert a few miles up the road from me tonight on accounta readin this gloom and doom means I might never get the chance again.

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 06:23 PM

nah, Canada has resources. If the greenback collapses Y'all will be sitten pretty. The Canadian Dollar will be worth so much you'll be able to hire Peyton Manning to wash your car.

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 06:35 PM

After shoulder surgery? He isn't even fit for training camp! If he did that he'd only ever be able to play Canadian football again. And my car would still be dirty.

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: Arkie
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 06:43 PM

Since this thread started out with a comment on Social Security, I will add one more tidbit that gets misrepresented. How can SS be considered an entitlement? Isn't it insurance. It may be a government program, but it is paid for by a specific fund, not general tax revenue. I've paid in and expect a return. Now SS may need to updated or fixed or whatever, but it has worked quite well pretty much for my lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 07:10 PM

If Sears cuts off your credit until you pay your old bill, they are simply asking you to honor your existing debt. Building up more debt is not the same thing.

The current debts of the US government are existing debt and cannot be paid without borrowing more or by increasing income. Any rational approach would do both.

As pdq insists, you must honor your existing debts; but the TWhiners are demanding that the US must not be permitted to have any way to pay its existing debts, since they insist that no more can be borrowed and that there can be no increase in taxes because "they really need all the money there is to buy a new private jet and hire another batman to polish their penneys" (that they never bother to put in their pocket).

Of course the private jet is necessary for them, since their proposal to cut off all highway maintenance payments means they'll soon have no place to drive their Lamborghinis. I really do pity the poor maligned IGNORANT BASTARDS.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 07:20 PM

"It may be a government program, but it is paid for by a specific fund, not general tax revenue." ~ Arkie

Losta people in the government want you to think that, but your Social Security check comes out of the General Fund just as everything else does.

It may appear on your paycheck as separate item, hense billed separately, but that does not mean that the money goes into trust fund.

Actually, the regular witholding goes into the General Fund as a cash asset but the SS portion is stolen by the Federal Government to pay other bills. They leave an IOU, ostensibly with iterest, but that interest is paid by deficit spending. Yes, endlessly we pay off debt and all the compounded interest on it with more debt. What was supposed to be a "lock box" is nothing but a box of IOUs.

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 07:34 PM

"The current debts of the US government are existing debt and cannot be paid without borrowing more or by increasing income.

No, the existing debt must be honored as directed by the Constitution. That means we should pay the interest on the public debt first. I believe that is about 15% of the budget.

Even if it is 15% of the budget dollar, we still have a total of 57¢ to work with. As I have said many times, the US Federal Government spend $1 dollar for each 57¢ it collects in revenue.

WE HAVE A SPENDING PROBLEM, NOT A REVENUE PROBLEM.

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 07:57 PM

I donno, pdq... I think the Constitution trumps lesser laws, the debt ceiling being one... There is no reference to the debt ceiling in the Constitution, BTW... None...

BTW, you are wrong again... We have both a spending and a revenue problem... Taxes have been cut for the wealthy over 20 times since 1955 and there is a point where if you exempt the 80% of wealth that the upper 5% holds then there is no way to do anything but watch a once great nation crumble around *US*...

Yup, 20 pay raises for the rich since 1955 and stagnated wages for the working class going back to 1980...

Do the math...

Now I am fully aware that folks don't think that we need a federal government at all, just a Department of Defense... If that is what you are arguing then count yourself among what even the very Republican and former House member, Joe Scarbrough, on his "Morning Joe" referred to as "very crazy" people this past Thursday morning...

Currently, 50% of all seniors live on less than $22,000 a year... Are you suggesting putting 50% of our retirees out on the street??? I mean, that's exactly what draconian cuts would do if we don't ask the folks who have had 20 pay raises since 1955 to take a pay cut and put a few peas in the pot...

I mean, everywhere you look, this country is falling apart... We have treated like slum loards and it well past time to get it going again...

Giving tax breaks to the rich has *****not***** worked!!! Right now they are sitting on trillions and trillions in cash and aren't producing enough jobs to shake a stick at... Do you deny that???

I mean, it's time to let a little reality into the discsuuion...

Do you want to put seniors on the streets??? Yes or no???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:29 PM

>>As I have said many times, the US Federal Government spend $1 dollar for each 57¢ it collects in revenue.

WE HAVE A SPENDING PROBLEM, NOT A REVENUE PROBLEM. <<

I think at least, we have a solution to your problem. You think repeat something often enough makes it right.

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:47 PM

The Bush tax cuts alone, if allowed to expire (one everyone) and ending Bush's two wars would take care of the annual deficits and let *US* chip at the cumulative debt that was passed on to Obama from his predecessors...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:56 PM

pdq...get this thru your head. We have BOTH a spending problem and a revenue problem. Much of the spending is still on Bush's wars and much of the revenue shortage is the lowest income taxes in decades on the rich and companies who use loopholes to pay little or no corporate taxes .

Yes..there are some other things to consider, but these freshman Republicans have tried to paint the whole problem as "over-spending Democrats" THAT is BS!

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:04 PM

Thank you, Bill... Seems like no other adults want to go on record and take on the right wing mythology...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 02:45 AM

Lets not forget the Medicare Drug plan.

That's a Republican unfunded legacy in our present budget.

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: Janie
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 08:31 AM

Arkie,

"Entitlement" when applied to government social safety net programs in the USA is a term whose definition has morphed over the past 40 years, and also become much cloudier.

Back in the '70's, entitlement programs referred only to those programs for which eligibility did not include a financial "means" test. If you paid in and/or had enough quarters of work or years of service, you and/or your family were guaranteed participation criteria such as age, years of service or disability were met.

Means tested programs such as Medicaid and SSI were not considered entitlements. Regardless of how much or how little one contributed in tax dollars or years of service, income and assets had to fall below specified dollar amounts in order to receive benefits.

Changes in legislation, judicial law and social attitudes over the past 40 years have muddied the waters and left the definition of "entitlement" open to much wider debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: Janie
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 08:34 AM

Oops. Insert "provided"

...family were guaranteed participation provided criteria such as....

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 08:39 AM

"There is just no wiggle room. The Republicans did it."

http://zfacts.com/p/1170.html

follow the links back to original sources for the actual data

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: Arkie
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:07 AM

Thanks for the enlightenment. I feel much better knowing that the whores of the extremely wealthy elite can legally steal my retirement. I guess it is not literally 'stealing' since it is legal. The are entitled to my retirement. Since I seem to be out on a limb I am going to suggest something else equally outrageous. The real reason that Republicans are trying to destroy the middle and poorer classes is to wreck the support base for the Democrats. There is no question they have their eyes on the next presidential election and are willing wreck the people, the economy, and the country to get there.

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:25 AM

Bingo Arkie.
It is all about power.

Subject: RE: BS: Social Security and the Deficit
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:32 AM

Thank you, Janie and TIA...

Yes, Medicaid is kind muddy because it has been linked in as an "entitlement" giving the wrong impression that folks with financial means are taking advantage of it... Actually, what is little known is that it is a last resort program where folks have to have exhausted their resources... The house sold, the savings wiped out, the Oldsmobile sold, etc... And most of the Medicaid recipients are folks who without it would be on the streets... Might of fact, most of the Medicaid $$$ goes to pay for older people in nursing homes where there are no family members able to take them in and care for them...

As for TIA's chart, this is something I have pointed out over and over... The Repubs would have *US* think that the National Debt began the day Obama was sworn as president... Then when that BIG LIE doesn't stick they go to BIG LIE #2 which includes Bush's little last boobie-trapped budget deficit of $1.4T for '09... Bottom line is that almost 95 cents of every dollar of today's national debt was wrung up by Republican presidents!!!

But doe BIG MEDIA bother to let that information see the light of day??? Hell no, it doesn't...

We have an information crisis more than any other crisis because well meaning people are voting on the right wing propaganda that its BIG MEDIA is shoving down their throats...

What we need is the restoration of the "Fairness Doctrine" in the media... Someone (maybe a foreign country, for all we know) is now spending tens (perhaps hundreds) of millions of dollar$ on a major smear campaign against Obama that anyone who watched even a little TV has seen... This is media... This effects how people will vote... The fact that this smear campaign contains no facts but just some woman (who deserves an Academy Award) and picture of her sleeping child (think Willie Horton here) effects those who watch it and then we wonder why these people go out and vote for LIARS who will turn around and stick the voters in the back???

Garbage in = garbage out...

In the words of the late Waylon Jennings, "We need a change"...

B~