BS: Punishment for riots

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 02:41 PM

Sorry, it was "Bluesman". You are too alike.

At risk of sounding like one of the public school buggers who impoverish us - the prisons are full and the country can't afford any more.

If sending people to prison worked, the USA would have a low crime rate.


Beating a dog does not housetrain it. Have you tried it?

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 03:03 PM

"the prisons are full and the country can't afford any more"

Neither can we afford to let feral criminal arsonists, looters and murderers go unpunished.

"If sending people to prison worked, the USA would have a low crime rate."

For fuck's sake Richard, for a man who claims to be well-educated you are unbelievably thick - they go to prison because they are criminals, not vice-versa. They are criminals first, they don't send innocents to prison to then be turned into criminals. Leopards don't change their spots. Prisons work by removing arseholes from society. They can't burn, loot and murder while they're locked up. What on earth is so difficult to understand about that? Instead of Greek and Latin, those posh schools ought to give a few classes in common sense.

"Beating a dog does not housetrain it. Have you tried it?"

I didn't mention beating a dog, Richard, you brought that in - maybe that's a clue to your, shall we say "unusual", personality? 'Punish' was the word I used, and there are ways to punish and impress the rules on a dog that don't involve any form of physical assault or brutality. I've lived a great deal of my life with dogs, breeds which some claim are vicious and dangerous - always treated them with love and respect and never had a moment's trouble with any of them. Fair, firm and humane 'Punishment' doesn't indicate a lack of love or respect, rather it's the failure to correct and enforce rules that indicates neglect. As with dogs, so with criminals.

Now, I'm tired of this silly game of verbal sword-fencing and I've got a very nice guitar waiting for me to give it a beating.

Enjoy the rest of your evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 03:15 PM

I think they should be put into a Love Camp, no boots anywhere...told of their responsibilities and the rights of others, then...shown a great deal of love, possibly for the first time in their lives...

Don't get me wrong, get them working, creating something pretty damned special of which they'll all be proud. Get them out there into the community, doing things for them to benefit everyone, including themselves...

Let them see they can be valued. Tell them they have talents, everyone does, of some sort or another...Give them support...give them boundaries..give the hope...and give them....love.



Or, you could beat seven shades out of them, call them a bunch of fekkin' scum, losers, failures, rat arsed low life and send them back out into society, I suppose...as many seem to want to do around the country at present....

Personally, I'd reserve the latter for the Bankers and those who've really caused this entire situation in the first place..through loving money more than people...

But hell, what do I know?

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Beer
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 03:28 PM

Put them all in the Army.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 03:28 PM

"they don't send innocents to prison to then be turned into criminals."
No, they don't - they put petty offenders into prison (in the States, overwhelmingly black) and release them after serving their stretch as fully qualified criminals.
As Richard said, if prison worked, either as a deterrent or as an incentive not to commit crimes, then crime would be on the decrease, instead of..... well, I'm sure you've heard it all before.
I'm afraid I'm very much with Peter Laban on this one - there's very little comfort to be had from either a mob of looters or a lynch mob.
The good news is that that (not even this present government) will bring back the birch, hanging, the thumb-screw, the stocks, the iron maiden.... Those that are caught will be, tried, serve the appropriate sentence and be released.
The bad news is, while the concentration is on "punishment" rather than cause, nobody will bother asking why a peaceful demonstration protesting the the killing of a petty criminal (not a "godfather" as some tabloidese-riddled pratt suggested) turned into nationwide looting and arson sprees, so we will probably never know and the potential for similar events in the future will remain.
Here's to the next time!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 03:51 PM

Beer... "Put them all in the Army."

I understand your stement but, in the end, that may be the ultimate goal of the rich who are running this circus.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 04:08 PM

Odd how letters go missing... statement... let's see if some of the letters stick to the satellite this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 04:11 PM

That was the justiciation they put up to excuse the looters' and arsonists' behaviour

Were you on a different thread to the rest of us? I saw no justification, just people trying to explain. There was still damnation from us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 04:59 PM

Jim, if you meant me, I referred to him as an "elder" not a godfather.
That is how he is known.
I got this from The Guardian, not tabloids, and provided a link to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 05:57 PM

""Put them all in the Army.""

What has the army done to upset you Beer?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Beer
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 06:40 PM

Not a thing Don. The title of the thread reads "Punishment for riots"

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:00 PM

""Not a thing Don. The title of the thread reads "Punishment for riots"""

Indeed it does,but I believe I am right in saying that it means punishment of the rioters, rather than punishment of one of the world's most technically advanced and professional fighting forces by insisting upon its performing a task it is no longer set up to handle.

You would be setting the army back fifty plus years.

No, the existing laws are quite adequate, if sufficiently vigorously enforced.

Personally, I would be in favour of chaining the blighters together and sending them out under guard, to work twelve hours a day till they had repaired everything they smashed up.

Unfortunately the European Court of Human Rights would probably veto that, which is a pity, since according to their apologists they were only rioting because there were no jobs for them.

A starving man steals food, not TVs and Nike trainers.

Most of those guys were wearing clothes that cost about three times my annual clothing expenditure, just to go looting.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:30 PM

"Personally, I would be in favour of chaining the blighters together and sending them out under guard, to work twelve hours a day till they had repaired everything they smashed up."

If we're voting on this, I'm in favour.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:30 PM

Russell Brand's comments.

Won't happen of course. It never does.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/london-riots-davidcameron

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:38 PM

Yes I use Matalan as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Beer
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 11:23 PM

I guess Don I did not explain my thoughts very well. In fact i just wrote the original post in haste and anger. I came from an area where boys (Girls were not accepted as yet in the forces.) if lucky finished school. Those that didn't found it very hard to find a job. A good number turned to the forces. Fellows who were nothing but bullies and assholes would join and came out respective men.( And proud to serve their country.) My two older brothers did their term due to the above facts and became respective citizens when they left the force. No, I think very highly of our military but maybe because from the area where i grew up in , it was a Saviour for many. When I see what is happening, I see youth that need work. The frustration is being taken out in a very wrong way. But maybe, just maybe they have no place to turn but to violence. i know that what i am saying will mean nothing to many who read this and i don't have an answer that would be accepted by all, but many of these kids (children)have nothing to do. Try staying home for one week staring at the walls with nothing to do. I will now take a stand and maybe stand alone. Parents are to blame PERIOD.....

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 11:48 PM

"respective citizens"? Do you mean respectful or respectable?

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: meself
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 01:01 AM

Isn't it quite clear what he means? (Take it as either 'respectful' or 'respectable' - what difference does it make?)

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 02:47 AM

Ditto, meself.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 03:45 AM

What worries me now is that we will all be punished for the crimes of the few. Cameron looks set to introduce measures against looters which could also be used against legitimate political protesters. Just another nail in the coffin of the liberty of the law-abiding individual. When you look at the infringements to our liberty that have taken place in the last 20 or so years in the name of our personal protection, especially under New Labour, it really is frightening – with some legislation that has previously only been used as a temporary measure in time of war now becoming a permanent feature. These disturbances could have handed Cameron exactly the justification he needs to curb legitimate dissent.

What we REALLY need is a well-manned, well-trained, well-disciplined and well-motivated police force of people like this:

Not Just a Job

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 03:52 AM

I think the leveller expresses a legitimate concern about the suppression of dissent.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 04:18 AM

He also makes a legitimate concern about the need for a well trained, well disciplined and well motivated police force.

Regarding the dissent. yes, I was very concerned when Th*tcher called me "the enemy within" in, ironically, 1984. I also have concerns regarding the use of terrorist legislation being a convenient tool for other purposes. Parliament Square being a good example.

However, if a Prime Minister did try to overstep the mark, there would be crowds on the street. I would quite possibly be one of them. We haven't got that now. We have opportunist bored feral fuckers who are well fed, well shod and clothed, educated and in a land where although there are more applicants than jobs of choice, there are still jobs and opportunity.

Perhaps if people stopped analysing and looking for social fault when confronted with criminals suppressing the freedom of decent people at night, we might be able to look at solutions.

The government have at least one solution. They will find them, charge them and process them. CCTV footage will ensure that. Ignore the populist unhelpful shit about rubber bullets and water cannons. Chief Constables don't' need to ring Cameron to use them anyway. We have systems and processes in place. To invent new ones will be no more than a victory for the anarchists who think this is a cry for social change. It isn't, it is a cry for a 40" plasma telly and your scarf / nose on utube.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 04:22 AM

Indeed he does, Richard. I put it past few governments not to conflate dissent and rioting.

I would expect that martial law will be declared in the next few days. I hope the search for looters doesn't stop when the rioting does.

I am wary of any government that would allow this type of crap to carry on as long as it has. Do elected officials hand in their cajones when they take seats in parliament? Just wondering.

The English used to have real stones. Now, they seem to have marshmallows. WTF happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 04:23 AM

theleveller, you don't half talk some shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 04:24 AM

Ian, your post wasn't there when I wrote. You said what I wanted to but much better than I.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 04:27 AM

Returning to Duggan, I know nothing of gang culture but I doubt that you claw your way to the top in the gang world by being nice to people.
Jim described him as a "petty criminal."
The Met Police do not call out armed response units to support the arrest of petty criminals.
Only dangerous criminals.
And, they would never choose to make the arrest while the suspect was inside a moving vehicle, on a busy street during the rush hour!

This would only be done as an emergency measure to prevent an even more serious incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 04:34 AM

"theleveller, you don't half talk some shite."

Thanks for that erudite, articulate, intelligent and considered comment. It greatly adds to the debate :)

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 05:04 AM

I agree with some of you, and not with others !!

I don't think that putting them in the Army would be a good idea ; I believe that Scottish regiments have , in the past, taken the worst of " the sweepings of Barlinnie (or wherever) prison" and inducted them into the Black Watch or the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders with predictably disastrous results ; the Army certainly wouldn't want them today !!

          The word that most of you seem to be avoiding here is PUNISHMENT ; who cares whether or not prison "works" ?? It is not supposed to "work" , for God's sake , it is a Punishment for wrong- doing !! Alright, it might, hopefully , act as a deterrent for a few people , but for the majority ,with their "softly softly " treatment , easy access to hard drugs ,mobile 'phones , pornography ,social workers and other assorted "doers-good " and bleeding-heart Liberals , it will never be a proper "deterrent" per se.
                So let's put the capital "P" back into Punishment , lock these bastards up, subject them to rigourous re-education as to their responsibilities as members of a civilised society ,and tell them that if they EVER re-offend, then they can expect a sentence of at least ten years . And charge all the ones responsible for torching shops etc , where people were living in flats above them, with ATTEMPTED MURDER !!

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: andrew e
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 05:15 AM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024943/UK-RIOTS-David-Camerons-tough-sentences-Yobs-treated-THEYRE-victims.html

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 05:35 AM

"Who cares whether or not prison 'works'?" I suggest that the victims of reoffending do.

Of course, criminals need to be punished, but that is for the satisfaction of society rather than the rehabilitation of offenders. Prison does not decrease reoffending – in fact it may even increase it – unless people are locked up for life (and there are some who should be).

Maybe we need a combination of punishment and rehabilitation, such as a term in prison in a hard, austere (but not brutal or brutalising) regime, followed by an indefinite period of education, PROPER community service and curfews, until the individual has demonstrated that the message has got home.

That way we would, hopefully, cut down the number of victims of reoffending and provide the offender with the knowledge, the desire and the hope to lead a useful and crime-free life.

All we need to do this is the will and the money – so, of course, it won't happen. Nor will effective tackling of the causes of crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 05:57 AM

"Put them all in the Army."

Bloody hell, please don't. They'll come out with even bigger chips on their shoulders plus professionally trained to commit violent acts.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 06:03 AM

Actually Bruce, thers a considerable gulf between whats on the statute books and how the law is actually applied. Ask Arthur Scargill or the Birmingham 6. Theres no actual reserve shown when it comes to the ferocity of law enforcement.

And theres no secret about which side of the political spectrum the law is kicking for.

Thus the Birmingham 6 wait 16 years to be freed for a crime they don't commit. Thatcher can put together overnight a court with all the bells and whistles to sequester union funds.

Criminals in the security service completely subvert the political process - as happened in the SpyCatcher Scandal. No prosecutions. Murdoch getting away with this latest nonsense is akin to saying John Gotti never pulled a trigger. MP's are proved to be swindling expenses on a grand scale - final prosecutions devolve down three Labour MPs and black guy.

The law is very selective in England and very subtly applied. No one with an ounce of sense has any dealings with the lawmakers if they possibly can. If they didn't go after the rioters - its probably because they didn't want to. Only a complete moron would argue that it is applied without bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM

"Put them all in the Army."

Bloody hell, please don't. They'll come out with even bigger chips on their shoulders plus professionally trained to commit violent acts.


Absolutely right, the army won't want them.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 06:29 AM

Someone I know got put in the Navy because he was a bit of a menace on a beer or 12 when he was young. He spent most of basic training on various sorts of charges. At his passing out parade he was put in the unarmed combat demo so the PTIs could have a laugh at his expense. 5 had to haul him off the 6th because he was chewing on that other's jugular. When he cam out of the glasshouse, the Navy said "Oh, so that's what you're good at is it?" and he spent the next few years killing the enemies of her maj mostly hand to hand in covert things as part of the SBS. I had most to do with him recently when he was ordered as a condition of bail to live at my house - the charge was at first attempted murder. If the Army doesn't want them, the Navy might, and they do indeed come out even more dangerous.


What Al says however is sage.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 07:38 AM

Al, NUM funds were not sequestrated because of Th*tcher, as much as history revisionists will ensure the folklore says she did.

No, I went to the strike meeting at Manton. We voted not to strike. Our delegate went to the delegates meeting later that day and recorded that we voted to strike. Two of our lads took exception to this and took steps to ensure nobody, least of all Scargill was above the law. This took a lot of hard work, courage by individuals who were being threatened and oppressed by their union and its thugs. Please, please don't start giving Th*tcher credit for the accomplishments of brave people who took exception to being treated as pawns by those who were supposed to be representing their interests. I wrote in the local newspaper at the time how I admired their courage and got a letter popped through my letter box by a union committee member who was also a local councillor, saying he knows what time my wife took our baby to the nursery each day.

Not much point in having a union when they make Stalin look like a social democrat.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 07:40 AM

"MP's are proved to be swindling expenses on a grand scale"
A point made last night on a fascinating special edition of Question Time.
The argument put forward was that if your role-models are corrupt and incompetent politicians who, as if by right, helped themselves out of the public purse and considered themselves above the law, which to a degree, they are, why not behave in the same way. Nobody attemptd to defend the looters and arsonists, but comments like these put the present situation in Britan in perspective.
"Jim described him as a "petty criminal"
Based on the little information we have so far, that is what he appears to be - a drug dealer, and until we know any different, that is how we have to consider him. Pre-empting that situation with evocatively misleading language (I am fully aware that it was from the Guardian - that's why I didn't accuse you of making it up) doesn't help us to understand the situaton that gave rise to these events.
To suggest that the police don't over-react is nonsense - yes they most certainly do - I seem to remember a public execution in Stockwell not so long ago!!
The eye-witness report put up by Mayo-Man presents a picture of a peaceful demonstration turning up at a police station in Tottenham, demanding to know why a young black man has been shot, only to be confronted by a group of baton-wielding, riot shielded police - I think they call it "community policing!!".
Can't remember exactly how many major riots were said to have taken place in Britain comparatively recently in last night' programme (9-10, something like that), but I do know that on a number of occasions trouble has flared up exactly because of police insensitivity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 07:53 AM

The police, Jim, have a very thin tightrope to walk and being human may sometimes react excessively. IMHO the problem at the early stage (apart from Duggan having been a known villain and gangsta on a smallish local scale - apparently and allegedly out to commit murder with a loaded illegal firearm) was that the IPCC failed to communicate and teh police (wisely IMHO) thought that they could not interfere with the IPCC process by making pre-emptive announcements. I know I don't often sympathise with the police, and I don't wholly trust them, but I think they were in a no-win situation at that point.

Mither, the loaded laws that your "brave lads" used (that included the power to sequestrate union funds) were put in place by Thatcher precisely to do what they did - disempower unions. Any employment law textbook will tell you. Well, almost any of those that examine the reasons for the ebb and flow of workers' rights.   You puzzle me. Most of the time you seem to want to undermine and enslave the working class and unwaged, and every so often you say something that is not so fascistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 07:59 AM

An amusing little story Richard but that is all it is - a story.

Unfortunately lots of ex-Navy members on this forum will be able to poke holes in it.

1: Passing-Out Parades are just that no branch of the Royal Navy puts on demonstrations to entertain the crowd

2: "When he cam out of the Glasshouse, the Navy said"??

No such thing as "the Glasshouse" in the Navy - it's DQ's, and given the circumstances as you describe them the charge would have been "Attempted Murder"

3: "he spent the next few years killing the enemies of her maj mostly hand to hand in covert things as part of the SBS"

So straight out of basic training, without a single SQ he is set to work as a Naval Rating (Ordinary Seaman at this stage) killing people as part of the SBS. If there is anybody reading this down in Poole they will be pissing themselves with laughter. For your Walter Mitty to have done any of this he would have had to have gone through the following:

- Basic Commando Training at CTCRM Lympstone (by the sounds of your boys behaviour he would not have lasted one week);

- Served between 2 to 4 years in a Royal Marine Commando Rifle Company with either 40, 42 or 45 Commando Royal Marines, and in that time be recommended for selection for Special Forces. (Your boys penchant for bucking the system would not be the way to get that recommendation);

- The SBS do not carry odds and sods passengers all have to be qualified as Royal Marines Commandos (A Royal Marine Commando can be a member of the SAS, an SAS Trooper on the otherhand cannot transfer and just join the Royal Marines);

- Very rarely are SBS assigned jobs where they "kill people" hand-to-hand or otherwise, they tend to be used to gather information on targets and pass that information back for action by others. If the SBS and the SAS do their jobs properly you as the enemy will never know that they have been there. The first you will know that something is amiss will be the moment you die.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 08:08 AM

The miner's strike had many confusing and paradoxical elements.

There were thug elements on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 08:41 AM

Yes Al, but as much as the avowed intent of the Th*ther government was to crush any union power base, I can't for the life of me let her get the credit for members holding their union to account. Democracy may not be the ultimate best system for any endeavour, but it is the best we have and so I have always had two bottles of champagne ready, one called Margaret and one called Arthur. I keep two in case I need them on the same day....

Bridge. I don't puzzle you. You are puzzled by the stereotypical makeup of me that you seem to have built up. This Mither bloke may want to enslave the working classes, (whatever they are?) but as I have never seen his posts, I can't comment. Perhaps it was him and not you that sang the parody to Red Flag? There is nothing to be ashamed of in engaging with rather than bleating about society. You seem to think that having a bob or two gives you a certain political view? mmm.. The would be Lord Stansgate for instance? I note Benn didn't give up the family coffers when he gave up the title. There, an example of being loaded up to the nuts financially, and not in it for what you can get out of it.

Your comments over sequestration are selective to say the least. The government clarified existing legal tools, thats all. Without them, the "brave lads" (your words, not mine) would not have been able to get justice due to the way people in the legal world such as solicitors and barristers make it impossible for people without money to have a fair crack at the courts.

To everybody else, its roast duck with orange sauce tonight. I rubbed the duck breasts with a spice and herb mix I made and flash fried them for a short while, then put it in a tray in the bottom of the aga till later tonight. I have french beans, potatoes and cabbage from the garden and will be making an orange sauce with the oranges I bought when I popped out to the shops earlier and the juices from the meat.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 08:47 AM

The haggis, neeps and tatties went down very nicely last night, Ian. Could have done wi' a dram or two of Highland Park but, alas, alcohol has been completely off the menu for me this past five or six years. Still, the Taylor's Yorkshire Tea was very nice.

518-3, Cook on 210 n.o.
Marvellous!

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 08:49 AM

What the government should do..

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 08:53 AM

I love haggis. The butchers in Crowle are McSween stockists and we have one every now and then. Always a bit too much for two, so I enjoy the following breakfast when I fry the rest up in a pan with a bubble & squeak from the extra veg I cooked.

Tell you what, I won't have a Highland Park for you, (got some in but not my tipple of choice.) I will raise a glass to your haggis tonight with a dram (or three) of Laphroaig. I have developed a taste for smokey peaty drinks lately.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 09:32 AM

Teri, it's what he said (maybe with a bit of the folk process).

I now use his SAS presentation dagger as a paperknife, I've seen him climb out of a wheelchair and end up with his knee on the throat of a bloke of about 6 foot 6 and 17 stone, I've seen his score sheets from when he shot for the Navy at Bisley, and the bit about the charge is true - I saw the paperwork, and the bail condition is true - I was there.

You are I think generally well informed on military matters, but you don't know the facts of this case.   


Mither, your words "brave people who took exception to being treated as pawns by those who were supposed to be representing their interests". I know not and care not much whether you have a "bob or two" (an expression that one of the most loathsome women I ever knew used to use) but I do care that most of the time you are actively on the side of the oppressors (at least in argument here) and every so often you say something that looks as if you have a social conscience.

Oh, and by the way, Thatcher's "clarifications" affected the ability of people to get legal aid not one whit. Other things may have done but not that. My recollection is that NAFF (the aptly acronymed "National Association For Freedom", Ross McWhirter's far right association of abusers of wealth and power) funded many of the legal actions against the trade unions during the Thatcher period and I thought that the one you are so proud of was one, but I may be eliding more than one event from the 70s.   Engaging with society (or at least the parts of it you cannot bring to order) is exactly what you don't do. All you do here is call for repression that will aggravate alienation. Much as I hate to quote Cameron, "Hug a Hoodie" - you won't integrate him into society by punishment.

There was a church near here that used to put up posters, and one said "You'll never knock Christianity in to anyone with a hammer, try a screwdriver and a few good turns".

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 09:34 AM

To all those wittering on about deprivation, poverty, frustration, Government cuts that haven't even been introduced yet, poverty traps and sink estates.

Have you had a look at a cross-section of over a thousand "looters" have been arrested in London alone and over half of them have already appeared before the courts. This morning on BBC News one of their reporters, reporting from outside the court-house, was asked if there was any discernible "profile" of the "looters" - His reply was quite astonishing - "None whatsoever, those who have appeared so far range in age from 11 to their mid-thirties and appear to come from all walks of life and from the full range of society" - So where are all these poor deprived souls then?? Or should we just face up to facts? What we have witnessed over the past few days has got nothing whatsoever to do with politics, yet to be introduced cuts (as suggested by Ken Livingstone) or social condition, what we witnessed was mass lawlessness, theft and criminal damage on a grand scale.

I do not care a toss how many looters or rioters get battered into a coma and who subsequently die as a result of action taken by the forces of law and order.

To go out with the deliberate intention of causing criminal damage, perpetrate acts of arson, loot and riot was their choice and their choice alone, they deserve everything that is coming their way.

My feelings of outrage are reserved for Mr. Richard Mannington Bowes who was totally let down by every single person in this country - We should all feel shame that this 68 year old man died doing what every single person present should have been doing - Upholding Law & Order, it cost him his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 09:34 AM

McSween's are very nice - had one or two of those. I like the B&S idea, must do that!

Enjoy the Laphroaig (Grumble, mutter, grrmmmpphh.......!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 09:34 AM

Richard, who is "Mither"?

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 09:47 AM

Funny Bridge, you built up your absurd opinion of me based on my shares in BSkyB as I recall, and literally accused me of having a bob or two. I know nothing of the founders of Guinness Book of Records apart from they seemed to have political opinions that were as far to the right as yours seem to be to the left.

The sequestration case funding? No idea if they were involved. A bit of a bugger of they were but justice is served on the merits of case, or so solicitors keep telling me. The NUM funding of their case came from, if memory serves me correctly, the meeting the NUM chief executive had in a tent with Gaddiffi.

Jeri, I don't know either, but I just keep answering for him when Rumpole of the Volvo shuffles his papers and walks towards the dock.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 10:01 AM

Teribus,

I was a firefighter for a good number of years. I've seen firefighters risking their lives to check out burning buildings to ensure no one is trapped or unconscious. Yeah, we wore the gear, but even that doesn't help much when the temperature is over 900/950 degrees F. Hell, we cook food at 350. On occasions when we've found out it was arson, trust me when I say that our concern for that particular fire starter does not have our cups of love overflowing. And when some damned judge gives the guy a few years, we have most of us wondered wtf we're doing the job for. I too share the intent of your remarks about Mr Bowes. For people who have never felt shame, they should in this case. Lots of it.

Keep well.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 10:05 AM

It still amazes me why so many of you continue to answer Bridge here. He never made it in the legal profession so stop feeding his fantasy that he was anything more than a clerk. Anyone else notice how he loves to drop names. I doubt anyone in the profession even knows him. A legend in his own lunchtime. A good rub down with a bar of Lifebouy would answer him better.