BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 02:23 AM

MorwenEdelwen1,

I suspect that Jews are much like us Gentiles, able to convince ourselves of almost anything.

So, in my last post, I should not have written that my hypothetical pseudo-Quaker warrior was simply a liar. I should have written that such a man was simply wrong.

Kent

P.S. I had a roommate in college who had first joined the Navy, and had then become a Quaker. The Navy was not pleased to have a pacificist in the ranks, nor was he pleased to be a warrior, hence he very quickly became an ex-Navy man.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 02:12 AM

MtheGM,

No one is claiming to have solved the problem of evil. No one is claiming that religious people don't sin. I am just pointing out that a person who is continuing to choose a life based on a practice that is repugnant to a religion, can't then credibly claim to follow that religion.

A man who gets into a brawl might turn out to be a Quaker who slipped. A career military officer who also claims to be a faithful Quaker is simply a liar.   

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 02:08 AM

But do you believe Fagin could be portrayed as being like Ikey Solomon- an observant Jew who has convinced himself that he is, as Judith Sackville O'Donnell suggests, "an honest dealer in secondhand goods"?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 01:59 AM

Yes, I have heard the stereotype of miserly Jews. In the version I saw, what was emphasized was Fagin's criminality, not his miserliness.   

I was not commenting on the book, which I haven't read. I was commenting to point out that someone has already taken Fagin's character and has presented it in such a way that it does not reinforce a stereotype. I presume that someone was Lionel Bart, although perhaps the versions I saw were altered from the original Broadway musical.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 01:58 AM

So, a person could be both a fence and an observant Jew, as many poor London Jews, particularly in the East End, were dealers in secondhand goods. The person didn't have to really do anything, just not ask any questions when someone brought them something and offered to sell it. .

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 01:51 AM

BTW, on Ikey Solomon-in the transcript several posts above Judith Sackville O'Donnell suggests that ïf you were a Jewish fence you could kind of convince ÿourself that you were an honest dealer in secondhand goods" And I quote: "The trick was to not ask too many questions about where the goods came from".

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 01:51 AM

I must disagree, Kent. A sort of doublethink seems to me to come into play in such circumstances as we are discussing.

We are, of course, back to Aquinas, or even Plato, on evil and original-sin, in these lucubrations. They never claimed to have entirely solved the problem of evil, either!

Jesus told The Woman Taken In Adultery to "Go and sin no more". I wonder if she did. Or if he really expected her to...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 01:44 AM

Kent Davis, Fagin in the Dickens novel is repeatedly referred to as "the Jew". At least, he was in the edition I read. He is not a "religious" Jew, but as MtheGM said, Ikey Solomon (one of the men who inspired the character) was. And he does fit one stereotype the miser who cares only about wealth .
I don't want to offend you, so if I have, I apologise but ,i> have you really never heard of the stereotype that Jews are money-hungry? And even in the musical, where he isn't explicitly a Jew, Fagin is a miser.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 01:39 AM

MtheGM,

As one who is conscious of his own sinfullness, I agree that one can be a believer and a sinner. In fact, I agree that all have sinned, believer and non-believer alike.

An observant Jew (or Christian or Muslim) might give into the the temptation to steal, and then repent. If, however, a person is continuing to choose a life based on a practice that is repugnant to a religion, the person can't then claim to follow that religion.

Fagin was not a man who slipped and gave into the temptation to steal. He was a unrepenant professional thief.

You can be a gigolo. You can be Amish. You can't be an Amish gigolo.

I am not Roman Catholic, but I strongly disagree that unrepenant murderers or serial child rapists can be described as "devout" Roman Catholics. They may be lapsed, or fallen, or former, or false, or self-proclaimed, or maybe even "culturally" Roman Catholic, but they are not religiously Roman Catholic.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:44 AM

I don't follow the logic of your penultimate para, Kent. Many criminals maintain their religious beliefs ~~ Mafiosi or Camorra-members, to take one example, are/were often devout RCs. And what of abusive priests, of whom we hear so much? They are, to be sure, faulty priests and believers: but their devoutness often remains intact thruout their errors? So why could not a thief remain an observant Jew ~~ as, by all accounts, Ikey Solomons was? I have no religion myself; but I can see that one might cling to a deeply-held belief whilst nevertheless conscious of one's own sinfulness.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:08 AM

MorwenEdhelwen1,

You began this discussion by asking "Does anyone here believe that a character created as a racial, ethnic, or religious stereotype can be depicted in a reworking of a story, emphasising religious or racial aspects, without reinforcing a stereotype? "

I first became acquainted with the character Fagin through the 1968 movie "Oliver!" That was 43 years ago, so perhaps my memory is foggy, but I don't recall that it depicted Fagin as a stereotypical Jew. About a year ago, I saw a live version of the musical (very, very far off Broadway). That version did not suggest that Fagin was a Jew, let alone a stereotypical Jew.

I have not read the book. It never crossed my mind that the character Fagin had any Jewish characteristics, either real or stereotypical. So, to answer half of your question: Yes, an originally stereotypical character can be depicted in a re-working of a story without reinforcing the stereotype.

I am puzzled as to how the rest of your question relates to Fagin. You asked if such a character could be depicted without reinforcing stereotypes, while also emphasing religious or racial aspects. Fagin may be Jewish but, if he is, he is only so by ethnicity. Since he is a thief, he couldn't possibly be religiously a Jew.

I am taking your word for it that the Dickens character was originally stereotypical. As a criminal from the slums, Fagin certainly does not match any stereotype of Jews that I have ever encountered.   

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:01 PM

thanks for the tip,999!

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 04:01 PM

I meant to type "Fagin/Fagan can be spelt either way as an Irish name."

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 03:52 PM

Fagan/Fagan can be spelt either way as an Irish name. More commonly the former, but by no means exclusively.

You get the same with Cohan and Cohen. All very confusing. Here is a snippet of a daft film from 1903 Levi & Cohen, the Irish Comedians...

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 12:50 PM

In fact, literacy, even before the Forster Education Acts, though by no means universal, was quite widespread among the agricultural and urban working classes ~~ how else would the broadside & chapbook printers & sellers have sold their wares in the vast quantities they did?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:40 AM

"Does anyone know how a poor non-Christian British person living in the city in the early 19th century could have learnt how to read and write?"

I am not involved in this 'discussion', but I would suggest you could answer that question with regard to Jews by reading about Jewish culture in England at that time.

Even when the Warsaw Ghetto 'uprising' was at its height, the Jewish fighters were still operating schools in the Ghetto to teach their children reading, writing, Torah.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 06:11 AM

Refresh. Anyone want to continue this discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 01:46 AM

Re-found a link I looked at before, talking about the Bryce Courtenay novel The Potato Factory , and its portrayal of Ikey Solomon, as well as Dickens' Oliver Twist .
Might be interesting to someone else here:
Ikey Solomon: Another Australian Icon?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 01:31 AM

BTW, this is slightly off-topic, but- about fences in general. I'd think a fence who set up as a shopkeeper would have to be literate- they'd have to be able to keep track of the people who sent them the stolen goods and be able to disguise them so that they could be sold undetected. Does anyone know how a poor non-Christian British person living in the city in the early 19th century could have learnt how to read and write?

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:16 PM

btw, MtheGM, Dickens also knew that lots of fences were Jewish, as I'm sure you also know.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM

A Yorkshireman is a Scotchman with the generosity bashed out.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:37 AM

On the subject of Dickens' real-life inspirations for Fagin's character- sorry about misinterpreting what you said, MtheGM- a fence and a kidsman could be the same person or separate, as I'm sure you know. It makes perfect sense for a fence to be a kidsman as well; by caring for the children, they could make them get attached and unwilling to question their loyalties. To quote Lionel Bart, from the musical in "I'd Do Anything"; "We'd risk life and limb/To keep you in the swing." . Ikey Solomon was not the only inspiration for Fagin, but he was certainly the one who was the most high-profile; his escapes were famous. It's easy to imagine him as a kidsman, as his reputation would have been known to the boys (and possibly girls, but I've only read about boys) he trained as pickpockets.

The most objectionable thing about Dickens' character is the fact that he is a miser- not the fact that he is a fence. That's the issue I'm going to try to handle in my (steampunk!) reworking. And the reason why I started this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 05:21 AM

They can all be true, Morwen. So can the additional influence on Dickens' characterisation of Worms; & probably some others who might have been in the news at the time - as I said before, it isw a matter of record that many fences (& probably kidsmen too) happened to be Jews, and newspapers must have carried accounts of their trials. You will talk in terms of 'either/or' in regard to a variety of possible influences which are entirely mutually compatible.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 04:53 AM

One is that his father, Henry, was a fence and introduced him to it. The other is that he got involved with a gang of pickpockets from the age of seven onwards. Or perhaps they are both true.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 06:16 PM

And another btw, Ikey Solomon had a warehouse in Chatham, where Dickens was brought up(according to Judith Sackville O'Donnell, a historian who wrote the book "The First Fagin" about him). Several writers also claim that Ikey was a kidsman - not uncommon for fences at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:24 PM

BTW, there are two contradictory stories about how Ikey Solomon got to be a fence in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:04 PM

...and of course a marine-store shop could have provided a fine front for fencing.

& Solomon had a shopkeeper-front also ~~ obviously every fence had to have an ostensible way of making a living as a front ~ he wasn't going to answer a question as to what he did for a living with "Oh, I'm a receiver of stolen goods, dontcha know!", was he?

Wiki says:"Ikey Solomon first had a shop in Brighton, but later opened what was ostensibly a jeweller's shop in Bell Lane, London, in the vicinity of Petticoat Lane. (This business has also been described as a pawn shop.)"

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:58 PM

Not necessarily based on either one or the other, Morwen; but probably aspects of both, + possibly some others. It seems quite authenticated that fencing was something of a Jewish-dominated crime at the time. Would refer you back to my previous post, as to my novelist first wife's practice in creating character, which she spells out in one of her metaficitional works ~~ 18 Oct 11 - 12:25 AM.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 03:58 PM

I could go into detail here about why I think so, but one reason is that I think he used a professional fence as his model (ie someone that did not have another occupation) and Ikey Solomon was one (Henry Worms actually had, according to the Old Bailey court transcript, "a marine store shop")

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 05:06 AM

And the fact is (this will be a short one because I have to revise for my next HSC exam) that whatever reason Dickens had for naming his Jewish character a name that is not common among Jews and which came from a Christian coworker, Fagin's Jewishness and profession came from Ikey Solomon and/or Henry Worms; I think it was Ikey Solomon.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:39 AM

Yes, Morwen: I caught your 'bitterness', indeed: but felt 'slightly snobbish' a gross understatement for something he kept a lifelong secret from everyone but his closest friend...

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:16 AM

I read it someplace. And I think you misraed me, when I said "It was a sign of his bitterness about that part of his life." .But there's another explanation, that Dickens used that name just because he liked the way it sounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 03:42 AM

He wasn't 'slightly snobbish' ~~ it was a bitter bitter memory he never really expunged for all his feted lifelong success and fame once he had made it; and a great secret from everyone, even I believe his wives; only breathed in confidence to his dear friend Forster whom he knew to be collecting data for his biography, and then only on condition that it should never be made known in his lifetime. He had always dreamed of fame, and never forgave his father for his financial neglect which landed him in such a predicament and seemed to cut him off from all hope in life: the first part of Little Dorrit demands to be read in this context; & even Part II, where Clennam has contrived to get Dorrit out of the Marshalsea and restore his wealth, has to be read as indicating that one never shakes off the 'shades of the prison house'; as indeed, as I say, CD never did.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 03:19 AM

So (according to this) his using the name for his villain was a sign of what he really thought of the person he saw as socially distant from him, and a sign of his bitterness about that part of his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 03:16 AM

I read an explanation that Dickens was slightly snobbish about the fact that he was forced to work in a blacking factory. He never mentioned it to anyone he knew, and apparently (according to this explanation), he didn't like it not only because of the hard conditions,but because of the people he was working with .

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 12:54 AM

According to Dickens' friend John Forster's "The Life of Charles Dickens" (1872), Book I Chapter II, based on CD's own account, Fagin was in the main kind and protective towards Dickens, who described his using the name 'long afterwards' in Oliver Twist as "a liberty".

Hard to pin down the truth; but the most authentic authorities seem to agree that he was actually called Fagin and was mainly well-disposed. Why CD 'took the liberty' of using his name for a villain seems a bit mysterious.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 12:40 AM

It is indeed not quite clear as to whether Dickens' co-worker in his unhappy youthful time at the blacking factory was called Bob Fagan [in which case he would have been Irish, presumably] or Fagin. G K Chesterton gave the name as Fagin, though there seems to be no ref to Jewishness; and it appears from his account that he was a big boy, who showed Dickens the work when he started, and was kind to him when he was taken ill one day and tried to see him home (but as home was the marshalsea debtors' prison where his father was held, D shool him off); but would frequently bully him and mock his depression nevertheless. If he really befriended Dickens throughout this unhappy period, it is hard to asee why Dickens should have chosen to immortalise his name as a despicable villain.

And this Dickens Fellowship note, though not mentioning Fagin/Fagan. suggests and alternative source for the character, one Worms, in place of, or in addition to, Solomon. ~~

Against this background Michael Allen's* discovery at The National Archives of documents from the Chancery Court in London, relating to disputes between the people who owned and ran the blacking factory where Dickens was employed and also between them and their rival Robert Warren, has revealed a wealth of information not previously available to us.  Where Dickens' young memory and understanding failed him these documents do, in many instances, correct and enhance the story. 
Allen's account opens up the world of Warren's Blacking, taking us beyond the knowledge and understanding of a young child.  But more than that, Allen uncovers a great deal of new information, peeling away layers about Lamerte, the man who first offered Charley the job at the blacking factory, Lamerte's family background, its Jewish roots, his Jewish cousins in the Worms family, Henry Worms – a likely model for Fagin, sent to Australia for handling stolen goods.  Here we have, for the first time, an accurate history of Warren's Blacking, written down within two years of Dickens working there.  Allen puts before us, from a contemporary source, what really went on in a blacking factory.  Here is a feast of new material.  For anybody who thought they knew the full story of Dickens' childhood, think again. (*Charles Dickens and the Blacking Factory by Michael Allen)

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 10:15 PM

*is one example*

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 08:53 PM

BTW, comic villains seem to be common in musicals. Miss Hannigan , the orphanage matron in Annie , who could be an Irish, or Irish-American, stereotype , drunk, abusive, and her surname is Irish. Also, in the movie, she says "Mary, mother of God!", which is often associated with Catholic characters in fiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 05:19 PM

Yes, well I've always heard that the Irish boy was Dickens friend

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 08:34 AM

The story goes that Dickens was bullied by a big Irish lad called Fagan in his days in the blacking factory, so called his first real villain by a similar, but not identical, name as a revenge on him; & made him a Jew on the Ikey Solomons model, but ugly and unattractive where Solomons was quite socially presentable: -- tho Fagin has, of course, an ambivalent sort of charm ~ the semi-sympathetic comic character who eventually does a runner in Bart's musical is a reasonable sort of adaptation within its genre.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 08:28 AM

In fact I think he'd have worked just as well as Irish. There's an appropriate stereotype to match there, one among many for Irishmen - there always is.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 07:10 AM

I have sometimes wondered whether Dickens might have meant to make him Irish, and then decided he'd work better as a Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 07:00 AM

Fagin, please. He is a Jew, not an Irishman. Not that I have ever actually met or heard of a Jew, or anyone else, of that name. But Fagan would certainly suggest an Irishman.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 06:35 AM

All depends how you do it. Fagan as Dickens portrays him is not simplistically villainous. There's an implied backstory of desperation and survival.

Ikey Solomon's life and career was so very different from Fagan's that it'd be a very different story - more especially if you are shifting into a very different period and society, in which the position of Jews is very much changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 06:01 AM

It's only a story!!

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 02:25 AM

Yes, that's why I said " loosely based ". I just want to know if it's possible to portray fagin as religious, more like Ikey Solomon , without coming off as anti-Semitic??

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:25 AM

Solomons might have been a 'trigger' for Fagin, being much in the news at the time as a Jewish criminal with underworld connections; but Dickens clearly didn't intend him as a direct representation. That is not how creative novelists work. Any more than Jackie Collins, who writes Hollywood-based novels of sexual intrigue, intends any of her characters to be a direct representation of any particular Hollywood star, tho obviously some amalgam of characteristics must go to each. My first wife Valerie, who died 4+ years ago, was a novelist, and has much to say about this way of working in one of her more metafictional [i.e. deliberately introspective as to the techniques employed] books called Culture Shock (1988).

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 09:23 PM

*Portray*

Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 05:32 PM

Okay, so the question for me is "Can I/is it possible to portary Fagin as closer to Ikey Solomon than Dickens' portrayal without coming off as anti-Semitic?"