Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 08:12 AM

Here are two translations, the second alters the order a bit to preserve a rhyming pattern. From my site:
http://bluegrassmessengers.com/i-have-a-%c8%9dong-suster--sloane-ms-c1430.aspx

I HAVE A YONG SUSTER

I haue a yong suster
Fer beyonde the see,
Many be the drueries [presents]
That she sente me.

She sente me the cherry
Withouten any ston;
And so she did the dove
Withouten any bon.

She sente me te brere [rose-briar]
Withouten any rinde,    [bark or in this case, thorn]
She bad me love my lemman [lover]
Withouten longginge.

How should any cherry
Be withouten ston?
And how should any dove
Be withouten bon?

How should any brere [briar]
Be withoute rinde?      [thorn]
How should I love my lemman
Withouten longinge?

Whan the cherry was a flour,
Than hadde it no ston.
Whan the dove was an ey, [egg]
Than hadde it no bon.

Whan the brere was unbred [unborn, i.e. a seed]
Than hadde it no rinde.       [thorn]
Whan the maid hath that she loveth
She is without longinge.
______________

I Have A Young Sister (translation from old Englsih from Arthur's home Magazine: Volumes 7-8 - Page 224 (1856) [I've edited it]

I have a young sister,
Far beyond the sea;
Many are the presents   
That she sent to me.

She sent me a cherry   
Without any stone,
She sent me a dove   
Without any bone

Without any thorns   
She sent me a briar;
She bade me love my lover,
And that without desire.

How can a cherry
Be without a stone?
How can a dove   
Be without a bone?

How can a briar   
Be without a thorn?
And who e'er loved without desire,
Since true love first was born?

When the cherry was a blossom,
Then it had no stone;
When the dove was in the egg,
Then it had no bone;

When first the briar sprouted,   
Never a thorn it bore;
And when a maiden has her lover,
Oh, then she longs no more.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 09:49 PM

Hi,

I'm trying to sort out the variants of Child 46. Appendix, which would be the Riddel Song . This is what I have:

Child introduces two riddle variants in his Narrative to ballad No. 46 Captain Wedderburn's Courtship. The first is the Riddle Song text from the Sloane Manuscript, No 2593, British Museum, dates back to the mid-1400s. The second appears in a footnote, the nursery song, "Para-mara, Dictum, Domine" from Haliwell. Usually there are four riddles in the variant versions with the answers supplied.

In the US and Canada, "The Riddle Song" is known as "I Gave My Love a Cherry" or sometimes under the English title, "I'll give my Love an Apple."

A different variant with similar riddles, is a nursery song found in the the US and British Isles with the "Para-mara, Dictum, Domine" (Haliwell) or common "Perrie Merrie Dixie Domine" refrain.

"Go No More a-Rushing," is yet another old English variant. The melody and song date back to the early 1600s when, it became at some point, attached to the Riddle Song. Versions of "Go No More a-Rushing" attached to the Ridddle Song with the standard four riddles, date back to 1800s.

There are three different melodies and songs plus the variants of these three songs.

Comments please?

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Young Buchan
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 05:03 AM

The boneless nature of the chicken in the egg is of course of limited duration. Apparently Descartes liked his omlettes made from eggs that had been under the hen for 8-10 days so they were nice and crunchy.
As a vegetarian, but not a vegan, I've always wondered how I should react to that.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: GUEST,Toby Bartels
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:27 AM

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?ThreadID=9589

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 05:49 PM

Doctor John, we had another thread on this some months ago where the very version you mention came up and was discussed more fully, I think. I just can't find that thread again! - Susanne

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Uilleand
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 03:31 PM

I can recommend the mudcat cafe for spiritual counseling with respect to that.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Allan C.
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 03:20 PM

Well, thanks! I have been trying to justify the "pippin'" with the "in the egg" thing for years. Now, if I can ever get to that "love that has no end" I will be just fine!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Uilleand
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 03:13 PM

Well, I just checked it up in a scientific report. And it is indeed a chicken that hasn't hatched and is still developping, hence has no bones. Glad, that what I was told was wrong. A pretty gross notion I've been carrying around with me for the last twenty years. Could have saved me many years of therapy, thank God for the mudcat.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Allan C.
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 03:10 PM

But of course in the answer portion of the song, "a chicken in the egg, it has no bones" - which doesn't fit very well with what I was told.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Allan C.
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 03:04 PM

When I was taught this song I was told that the term refers to a female chicken which is no longer considered a chick, but is still too young to lay eggs.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Uilleand
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 02:59 PM

I was told at one time, that 'a chicken when it's pippin' refers to a poultry disease where the bone deteriorates and weakens to a point where it's like rubber. So the animal can't stand. I'd love to hear more about this. It was one of the songs I first learned in German high school.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Doctor John
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 01:47 PM

I read somewhere that the line "a baby when it's sleeping has no crying" was originally "a baby in the making ..." but this was considered unacceptable! I have never heard a recording of this version; has anyone? Dr John

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 05:07 AM

I've always liked Alan Sherman's version of the song:

I gave my love a cherry that had no stone
I gave my love a chicken that had no bone
I gave my love a baby, and then you see
My love got very angry and she said to me

I didn't mind the cherry without the stone
I didn't mind the chicken without the bone
But when you give a baby, there's just one thing
You ought to give at least an engagement ring!

(He did manage to get the ring in, after all)

Aloha,
Mark Cohen

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 07:28 AM

Frank,

Our wonderful translator says "And it thanks thank you for your assistance for the radix complement that my English is not at all so bad!

Thanks 'very much'."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Oehne
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 04:33 AM

Thank you for your help.

And now a last riddle for you (to test your german).

Vielen Dank für Eure Hilfe und danke für das Kompliment, daß mein Englisch gar nicht so schlecht ist !

Danke schöön.

slainte,

Frank from Hannover, Germany

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:57 PM

The Riddle Song is centuries older than the slang "cherry" for virgin or "cock" for penis.

By the way, we call them verses, not strophes--but your English really is excellent, Frank.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: kendall
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:22 PM

Your English is better than our German

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: annamill
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:36 PM

Whoo! Thank goodnes I COULD read it. Scared me for a moment. After all it's "what I do"!

l a

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Ely
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:19 PM

Actually, I COULD read that (even before I saw the second post). Yikes

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Gint
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:09 PM

if you can read this you can get a job in computer programming

Not into programming I just have to decipher, letters from re-enactors, mostly Ferret

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Oehne
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 07:59 PM

Thank you Ely for this faaaaast help...

and, I have a riddle for you :

"f u cn rd ths u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgrmmng"

Slainte ;) Frank

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Riddle Song, help to understand
From: Ely
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 07:48 PM

Chicken in the pippin= in the egg (I assumed this was the equivalent of a "bun in the oven"; although I might just have a low, dirty, young mind).

I always assumed it was the "natural progression":

Cherry--virginity Chicken--[uh, oh!] Ring--hand in marriage Baby--well . . . a baby

Subject: The Riddle Song, help to understand ....
From: Oehne
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 07:43 PM

Hi folks ! I'm a poor german irish folk fan and I hope you can help me abaut this... The Riddle Song (I hope you now this song) contains this line: I gave my love a chicken that has no bone ... ... and later in strophe 3 A chicken when it's pipping (or piping, I'm not really shure), it has no bone ! And this is the riddle for me ! ('cause my englisch is not very good, hope you will forgive me !)

What is the meaning of pipping (or piping) !?!

Thanks for your help,

:) Slainté

Frank