BS: Britons shall be slaves?

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 02:10 PM

(Thank you Guest, I didn't see your post as being directed at me personally.) In an ideal world, prisoners would be given meaningful work (however, this would create serious security issues) and paid a wage, to encourage rehabilitation. Benefits claimants would receive a decent amount per week, enough to actually live on, and help & support to find decent and dignified work. Obviously this isn't an ideal world, and we're in a recession. BUT you cannot ever demand that a person work for benefits that barely sustain life, and threaten to withdraw the pittance if they refuse. That is slavery, and totally abhorrent. It's plain that Poundland and others are gleefully cashing in on the gift of slave labour. Also, as this practice is not nationwide, presumably many claimants are being given their benefits without having to be slaves. Not fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 12:14 PM

GUEST,Eliza,

My comments were more open and rhetorical and not aimed at you.

The earlier point I was making was, regarding the 'hang 'em and flog 'em' brigade', where do they draw the line? Does their need to see punitive 'justice' (no luxuries or liberties and, saliently, making them work for their keep) outweigh the needs of people on the outside who need training and jobs?

Similarly, for those generally more on the left, at a time when college courses, funding &c is being cut outside of prison, how does 'rehabilitation' and training work in prison when it's providing more opportunities inside than it does for people outside?

As for workfare &c., I made some long posts above that should clarify how I feel about workfare and the treatment of people on benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 10:45 AM

Yes, BWL, Poundland got a free employee - so could sack another paid worker.

If the state is the "employer" so called "workfare" also displaces a paid employee.

What Dave H said on the 10th at 7 Mudcat time is spot on the money.

I imagine that TV for prisoners does enable them to keep up with the world so that they are less disadvantaged on release - as well as helping to keep them quiescent. So it's probably beneficial overall on balance.


Oh dear MG - you need to see what actually happens. Your rose-tinted version of "public service" is a fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 10:26 AM

My point is that BOTH prisoners and benefits recipients need to be provided with necessities. But while prisoners are protected from being forced to work for their 'keep', the young lady at Poundland was told to work the prescribed hours or forfeit her benefits. I find this difference hard to justify. I draw the line, GUEST, between the criminality (by choice) of prisoners and the honesty of benefits claimants. The one group have put themselves into their custodial predicament, the others are blameless for being unable to find work.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 09:31 AM

Where do you draw the line between what prisoners (and by extension benefit recipients &c) need or should be given by the state? Where do you draw the line between punishment and rehabilitation? Lots of people are, perhaps justly, angry about training and educational possibilities in prisons at a time where genuine (re)training &c is out of reach of many law-abiding long-term unemployed.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 05:47 PM

I agree, Michael. But I suspect the prison officers need to keep them quiet somehow, and TV does that to some extent. I don't see why they should be given pocket money though. They get a 'canteen list' every week and tick off the things they want to buy. It's brought to their cells by an officer (room service?) Blooming cheek!

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 03:41 PM

You can't just sit at home watching the ( @ )( @ ) boob tube.
(:-( P)=

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 02:18 PM

They have obviously got to have food, adequate heating, &c. But I have never understood why they have got to have tv. How long has that been a necessity of life whose removal would be grossly inhumane?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 01:53 PM

Actually, prisoners here in UK have the right NOT to work. They can choose, if they wish, not to do anything at all during their sentence, but of course they still get fed, clothed and heating,hot water, TV, lighting etc and the 'Basic' pocket money. Yet the Benefits claimant was threatened with withdrawal of her payments if she turned down the 'work' at Poundland. I call that discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 10:25 AM

I have no problem with the idea of assigning welfare recipients or prisoners to work, as long as the work is for a govermental entity. But, according to the article linked to in the opening post, one of the claimants "...argued that making her work unpaid at a Poundland store for two weeks or risk losing her benefits was a breach of human rights." Isn't a store a private enterprise? Doesn't that mean said store is basically obtaining a free employee at taxpayers' expense? Doesn't that open a very wide door for political corruption? Did Pound Stores get a free worker for two weeks because they gave a government official a better deal on a plasma television set than did their competitor?

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 05:05 AM

I read about that, mauvepink. I quite agree. The customers using the call centres would be completely unaware that criminals (and that's what they are, after all) were taking down their details and would presumably have access to their records etc. Also, those are jobs that honest folk might be glad of. I have several friends with sons & daughters in their twenties who are finding it hard to get work. No-one is doing much for them, and they've never broken the law. I have visited many prisoners in eight prisons in the UK, both 'open' and 'closed' and I do see that they need rehabilitation, but surely common sense dictates that the opportunities don't compromise the security of the public? They chose to commit crimes, we don't owe them much really.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 03:35 PM

Slave of the Century

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 03:25 PM

Well I just read this

Prisoners could work in call centres in job opportunity drive

and dashed over to Mudcat BS thinking there would be a thread on it. However, it does kind of fit into this one nicely, so I have added the link for comment.

I am all for those who have served their time and been rehabilitated being given a chance when they get out, but what I would fear is what information can be passed to call centre staff and which companies/agencies would use such call centres?

Time was they exploited the Indian market but this could see call centres coming back to the UK. At what cost? And to whom?

The world we know is getting scarier by the day and harder to live in for fear of those elected to protected us!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 01:33 PM

We have some old thought patterns that we need to break. Public works, despite our ancestral memories of workhouses, do not have to be abusive or horrifying or insulting to peoples' dignity. There is nothing inherently wrong about working in a greenhouse, a small dairy, a parks department, a library, a nursing home. I would gladly work any of those places in exchange for money a bit above welfare or whatever. I think itis something that we must plan for and expect for our own selves..there are ways of supervision and monitoring to eliminate most abuses, which we have frankly not eliminated from the regular job market. There are not enough jobs now it seems, probably never were, but there are people who are inadequately nourished, there are elders receiving poor care, there are blighted areas in every city. We can put the two together, offer people a choice in an area they wish to work in, give them modest training and opportunities for more if they wish to get certified, and solve several problems at one blow, while not spending much more than we do..but getting some valuable return for it. I don't see the problem and would sign up right now myself for 2 hours a day, since I work 6 or 7 anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 12:16 PM

or perhaps a heart attack...

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 10:52 AM

but he's having a wank !!!????

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 10:45 AM

I'll have some of what he's having...

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,sensible chap
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 08:47 AM

so many brains...so little sence and humor...come on dudes.you wos more fun wen youa was abuseve

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 07:00 AM

Only people who have never had the misery of trying to exist on benefits think it's more attractive than working.

Some years ago the then Tory MP Matthew Paris tried to exist on benefits for a TV programme, for one week, his conclusion at the end of the week was that it was impossible, but he wouldn't recommend paying them more, and that was after people in the North East who were genuinely existing on benefits treated him with kindness and compassion, what cunt he was.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 06:40 AM

The Beveridge Report was based on certain assumptions, one of which was full employment. It was the principle of less eligibility, as some seem to be suggesting here, that brought about the workhouse. At least there would be plenty of jobs created in building them!

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 05:13 AM

I truly believe that many people on benefits work 'on the side', sell drugs, commit minor theft etc because they are forced to by the total inadequacy of benefits to cover even the necessities of life. Even with all the additional 'help' such as housing benefit, no council tax to pay etc I cannot for the life of me see how anyone can pay for heating during a winter of minus ten degrees (here in UK), get about on public transport to find work or even to access the computer in a library for the notorious JobcentrePlus. Bus fares are expensive and there are no concessions for them. Even miserably basic food is quite dear, and charity shop clothes cost more than they used to. It reminds me of the philosophy of the introduction of the 19th Century Union Workhouses. Relief for the poor should be so miserable and untenable that they are forced to find work as quickly as possible. But where is the work? I'd love to see a politician live (not for a week, as on a TV programme) but for six months on benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 07:13 PM

are you suggesting that could be right? either you have had some really awful jobs or you are lucky enough to have never been out of work. on benefits you can exist but it isn't much of a life.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: sapper82
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 04:24 PM

Wasn't one of the fears of William Beveridge, when he wrote his report that led to the foundation of the Welfare State, that we could end up making life on benefits more attractive than working?

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 03:08 PM

There you go, smartarse Register of Interests David Blunkett

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 02:53 PM

Of course if it's in Private Eye it must be true.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 09:40 AM

Sorry McGrath, I was thinking of a majority of people on this forum. Of course, politics stinks and you get stuck with them for the next five years. As we say round here 'they can make their gobs say owt'.

I just read in the latest Private Eye that David Blunkett gets 80k a year from A4e and News International, two firms under active investigation for shady work. And he's not even a bloody Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 06:52 AM

Well, with luck it looks like Cable will scupper toryboy's gerrymander.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 06:33 AM

the overwhelming majority of MPs on all sides of the house are pro-global capitalist tories (and/or Tories)there are millions of people who take a different view that is hardly ever expressed in parliament - well, one green MP maybe. i'm afraid until we disenfranchised folk organise ourselves properly and push for a real change then we britons will always be slavish.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:26 PM

And it takes less votes to elect a Labour MP than it takes to elect a Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:37 PM

"That's how democracy works - the majority view is the one that prevails."

That's just not true. Even the minority of people who voted Tory voted for a party that swore blind not to do things it has done, and swore blind it would do things it hasn't done.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 12:38 PM

well you could,

but I'd guess too many of us are reasonably content enough
with our careless misuse of written English
to be bothered much with it on such a sunny day..

And why spoil the pleasures of correcting our dumb mistakes
which is a priority for a few more learned pedants & snidey snobs.


MtheGM is however excepted from my sarcasm
as he is the same age as my mum and I genuinely respect him
and enjoy his educated posts.

Mum brought us up to aspire to MtheGM's standards as a gent & scholar.

Shame I'm letting her down so badly, but there you go...


At least I am educated enough
to've resisted becoming a despicable resentful mean spirited tory lacky wage slave.......

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 12:23 PM

.......as in the way some folk spell 'should've' as 'should of'?

Perhaps I should begin a new thread about literacy?

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 12:19 PM

""excuse me you boring farts...... I have knob to Polish""

Onanism is nothing to boast about senseless guest.

Still, whatever turns you on!......Go on, go polish your knob, and enjoy!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 12:15 PM

""'Some've' is an accepted abbreviation for 'Some of' in the same way that 'I've' 'I'll' 'We'll' are accepted forms of written or spoken word""

Sorry to spoil your day Happy, but you have actually shot down your own argument with a single bullet, "I've"!

It is an abbreviation for "I have"and so is "some've"
an abbreviation for "some have".

As in "Some've died in battle, and some've died in bed!", it is mostly used in poems, though I have heard it on many occasions in colloquial speech.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:57 AM

Why has he a Polish whatsit? Should it be returned to the Poles?

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:37 AM

Quite so, sensible. Is there, though, anything more yawn-inducing than those perverse boobies who proliferate round here, who post on threads with nothing to contribute, but for no other purpose than to denounce them as boring? So go & polish your wotsit, and I hope it keeps fine for you both...

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,sensible chap
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:34 AM

excuse me you boring farts...... I have knob to Polish

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,sensible chap
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:30 AM

yaWwwwwwwwwwwwn..........

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:12 AM

World English Dictionary

Enjambement

— n
        prosody the running over of a sentence from one line of verse into the next

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:11 AM

... and I shouldn't really take full credit for " cukltural"

put it down to clumsy typing skills and my stubborn refusal to ger my eyes tested
for close up reading lenses...

Optician's fees are too good money that could be spent on guitar fuzz boxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:05 AM

thanks for the flattery MtheGM..



I did pass English "O" level with a "B" grade back in 1975
It's all been downhill since then.

BTW, never in my life seen or heard the word "enjambement"..


I'm off to look it up - hope it's not too smutty....

oh ok, hope it is...

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:59 AM

What a beautiful piece of vers libre, pfr.

And what creative vocabulary ~~ I particularly warmed to the clunkiness of cukltural!

And what masterly enjambement at

"we were being used to replace
what should have been properly paid and unionised local authority workers."

Has any poetry magazine or anthologist shown any interest?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:22 AM

Back in the early / mid 80s
the Tories actually came up with quite a useful and intelligent scheme
to manipulate unemployment statistics in their favour.

"The Community Programme" or some such similar name.

Basic details I can remember..........

Clever dick unemployed students and arty musician types like me
were put in this programme
where you got paid about 10 quid more per week than basic sup benefit,
didn't need to sign on,
got a few extra perks, etc,
provided you committed to genuinely work set hours on a valid local 'community' project.

The downside was that the more politicised amongst us were aware
we were being used to replace
what should have been properly paid and unionised local authority workers.

But we were at liberty to work fairly autonomously with quite decent project budgets
that were great for setting up radical lefty community arts spaces, photography darkrooms,
music band rehearsal facilities, theatre groups,
etc type projects..

Great experience and life style when you were in your early 20s
and lived a very active alternative arty lifestyle in an inner city.

It was a year or 2 before the tories realised their mistake,
funding a breeding ground for youthful cukltural subversion & dissent,
and promptly shut down the projects and funding.
and put us back on regular sup ben regime

Anyone else remember this scheme ???

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 09:58 AM

This: 'Gaining valuable skills and experience' my arse! There's nothing that Poundland could teach you that would take more than half an hour.

And this: "The workfare regime provides free workers to capitalists. Every such worker prevents another worker having a paying job."

How come needful charities didn't get brought on board this scheme, arguably everyone could have benefited?

Lots of experience and skills to be provided for them as actually need it (geology graduates probably not being among them) as well as the rewards to the community of course; from administration, gardening, cooking, shop work, writing articles, counselling/befriending, to repair work, decorating, canvassing etc. you name it!

And yet this government would rather see claimants wresting dull menial jobs from already low-paid workers at Poundland..

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 09:49 AM

well it seems "sensible ever been had chap" [ 1 or 2 individuals ???]
has wanked himself off
into a frothy dribble mouthed state of ecstasy throughout all this.

From his first posts, this was quite obviously a 'troll porn' thread
for the poor sad little socially inadequate chap
to get his hairy palms greased up for.......

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 08:18 AM

i think i'm fairly good with punctuation and grammar an' that - used to teach the stuff. but i have learned it doesn't matter much as long as the meaning is clear. i choose not to bother with capitals -just lazy- but can a bit superior when apostrophes are misused. i think we are free to do what we want -if it annoys a few pedants, so what. incidentally, franglais is good fun a temps en temps. as texting is so ennuing i rarely ecrivez anything else sur mon phone. fin

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 08:03 AM

Why is there never an old Chinese around when you want one?

I think that there's a problem if you're trying to depict the colloquialisms and regional variations common in spoken English in writing. My English is, of course, impiccable.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:47 AM

Nor will you.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:34 AM

I have not yet been able to find an authoritative source to justify my abbreviation.

Subject: RE: BS: Britons shall be slaves?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:14 AM

You shouldn't polish a wok. Isn't there an old Chinese saying something like 'the blacker the wok, the better the cook'?