Can a pop song become traditional?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:56 AM

I wonder if gypos have a view on all this!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 05:09 AM

... and about films too, Will. I too have always greatly enjoyed that version of Blithe Spirit which I must have seen at least 10 times -- Rex Harrison, Kay Hammond, Constance Cummings, Margaret Rutherford, Joyce Carey... "I am fully aware of the irony in your tone Dr Bradman!" I have done much work on Noel Coward in my time, as am-actor, director (inc 2 productions of Blithe Spirit), encyclopedia contributor, &c. Once one of a chorus singing adapted version of Mad Dogs & Englishmen at Norfolk CC drama course at Wymondham College... Consider him one of the really great playwrights.

driftdriftdriftdri....... luvverly innit!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:03 AM

Firstly, MGM Lion , if you check my original post you'll find that I did say that my quote was a cliché, but like many such, I would defend it as being totally valid in this case. What you are saying is that YOU can say whether a song is 'pop' or 'traditional' on an individual basis. That's just barmy, you're entitled to your opinion, just like Jim Carroll, but you are not infallible, so how can you be so dogmatic and blinkered about it?
I don't intend to discuss your list as there's little point, it doesn't matter anyway. Would suggest you sit down with a nice cup of tea and stop worrying about it- as my mum would have said- 'keep your hair on'
I'm regarded by many as being a 'traditional' performer but have never described myself as such, I just think I have some basis in the 'tradition' as I understand I, but hesitate to tell anyone else what it is. Think Dick knows what I mean...
don't burn your books yet, Jim- I didn't suggest that and see you at the next Synod, Vic?
... dear MGM - no capital letters, no exclamation marks here- keep your hair on

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:36 AM

"so how can you be so dogmatic and blinkered about it?"
Pretty much as you can be by insisting that you don't need a definition and call whatever you choose "folk" or "traditional" to suit yourself, or claim that it is impossible to define the terms when perfectly serviceable and time tested definitions exist.
Not us being blinkered I'm afraid, just those who choose to ignore what is there to be had.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:22 AM

most performers learn songs because they like them, however as a performer in a folk club the situation becomes more complicated, here is my particular case.. in a folk club most people who turn up to see me, expect certain to hear certain types of songs, in a pub in ireland the situation is slightly different and a different repertoire has to be used in a singers club in ireland a different repertoire again, all the songs I would sing would all be classified as folk songs although once or twice in uk folk clubs in the past at the request of concertina afficianados, i have played instrumentals such as yesterday, washington post, dill pickle rag, none of which i consider to be traditional or folk material., hoever the majority of the material during the evening would be what I think of as folk songs[ Ido not need any 1954 definition] I know one when i hear one, much as Walter Pardon did
people who go to see Jim Bainbridge, expect a different repertoire, and he does some excellent songs, is the song that he sings about JESUS A FOLK SONG? , all i know is that it is a good song, is the song about The Half Crown a folk song?possibly possibly not , but it is a good song.
I have in the past sung THE WORLD TURNED UPSIDE DOWN, it is a modern song, is it a folk song?, well it is written in a folk style, but in my opinion it is a good song[regardless of whether it is a folk song or not].
Then we have Brian Peters, he chooses to sing a song about Fish and Chips, He clearly likes the song, I doubt if he worries about whether he thinks it is a folk song, before he sang it, or whether it fitted the 1954 definition, personally I prefer him singing tradtional ballads, but I am sure others would disagree, and I am sure Brian thought carefully more about whether it fitted in to a concert to give contrast humour and light relief rather than whether it fitted the feckin 1954 definition.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:47 AM

and so I will go on and on, what about thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtdIQr-AmYM

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:55 AM

does this fit the sacred 1954 Definition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx9NprywlhE

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:01 AM

Did Walter Pardon need to consult the 1954 definition before he sang a song?Did Fred Jordan?or MARGARET BARRY

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:41 AM

"Did Walter Pardon need to consult the 1954 definition before he sang a song?"
Walter filled tape after tape with his opinions of what constituted a folk song without ever being prompted to do so.
Nobody has to consult anything before singing a song and nobody has ever suggested that they should - not in my hearing anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:49 AM

Could it be that after 61 years the 1954 definition is outdated?


Just asking.














OK I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 10:29 AM

"Could it be that after 61 years the 1954 definition is outdated?"
It's very much in need of revising based on what we know now - it may no longer serve its purpose any more, but if we are going to continue to attempt to draw peoples' attention to the music and discuss it among ourselves, we need something we can all agree (more or less) on.
The problem lies with some of the arguments put up here by some people who argue that you don't need to define what you sing - if you confine your singing to your rubber duck in the bath, of course you don't, but if you attempt to draw people in in order to pass on the music you consider important, you most certainly do - same goes if you write about it or broadcast it publicly - "what it says on the tin".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:31 PM

Walter had opinions, so do I, so do you, but he chose to sing a song because he liked it, AND because his audience expected it, for example he might have liked[possibly] the white cliffs of dover, but he knew that was not what traditional folk song collectors were after, he also knew that was not what was expected of him in a folk club, Harry Cox was the same.
NOW a traditonal singer like charlie stringer would sing the highwayman outwitted and five minutes later, carolina moon, because he just liked singing both songs.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:36 PM

"Walter had opinions, so do I, so do you, but he chose to sing a song because he liked it, "
Who doesn't and who suggested you shouldn't
You have no idea what motivated Walter to sing
But none of this alters the fact that he and every other singer we have questioned, differentiated between the type of song they sang whatever they sang.
Sorry Dick - no intention of getting bogged down with you unless you have a point to make
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:27 PM

The expectations of the audience, THAT IS MY POINT.
If you turned up for a Martin Carthy gig, it will have been promoted in a certain way, you will be expecting a particular style of song, if you turn up for a Jim Bainbridge gig you know what you are likely to get, if you turn up to Leon Rosselson you have expectations, no one needs a 1954 FOLK Defininition to decide whether an artist is their particular taste to make a decision about attendance.
so another point is that as soon as people start to charge money thee become expectations.
Charlie Stringer sang as a non professional he was classified by John Howson who was in the business of becoming a collector and wanted him to be part of his old hat party and be a "traditional singer" ,but Charlie, just sang what he like, an old ballad one minute a country and western song the nex,,
you know as well as i do that traveller "tradtional" singers the sort you collect, do precisely, this they dont care about definitions they sing exactly what they want, country and western and/or old ballads, they decide upon their songs not upon classification but because they think the song is a good song.JIM BAINBRIDGES Point
this in my opinion only changes when people start to make money out of it and start to have an image and an audience starts to have expectations.
if paying people turned up to a Carthy concert and he sang Lonnie Donegan songs all night, they would be surprised and probably shocked, and might ask for their money back, but it would not be anything to do with the 1954 definition.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:38 PM

"The expectations of the audience"
Walter was singer who dedicated his life to gathering together his families songs - he did not sing to order.
If that is what we expect of our singers, why bother having them at all - why not install a juke box
Walter was booked for what he sang and how he sang them - not as a crowd pleaser
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 02:51 PM

but he was still pleasing his crowd , the crowd that had turned up to see Walter Pardon the traditional singer who sang old ballads that had been in his family.WalterPardon could never have hacked it as margaret Barry did as a busker on the streets.
Walter was promoted and audiences turned up to see him   on the rare occasions he sang in folk clubs and folk festival. HE PLEASED HIS CROWD BY SINGING WHAT WAS EXPECTED OF HIM.
BobDavenport and JimBainbridge do the same but they are carrying on the attitude of the traveller tradtional singers [who you collect from] of singing songs on the basis of whether the song is a good song, rather than its classification., or the 1954 . CheckMate and fuck off

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:08 PM

"CheckMate and fuck off"
Tried to be nice there Dick even though I knew it was a waste of time
Won't try again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:12 PM

I am just being friendly,Jim, fuck off is a term of endearment around here.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:42 PM

"I am just being friendly,Jim, fuck off is a term of endearment around here."
'Suppose it is Dick - ain't I lucky I live in Clare!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:42 PM

"I am just being friendly,Jim, fuck off is a term of endearment around here."
'Suppose it is Dick - ain't I lucky I live in Clare!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:16 AM

if you fecked off,I would have no one to discuss it with.
Jim can I put a question to you, Old Brown's Daughter was an English music hall song, sung by Alfred Vance, and became a Newfoundland folk song. It was written by G.W. Hunt (1839–1904).
Walter Pardon sang this song, he was described as traditional singer,these are facts do you agree/ now I know you will say Walter differentiated between his songs, but he did not use the 1954 definition. Walter sang the songs because they had been in his family? do you agree?or did he sing the songs because he liked them? or was it [which is my opinion] a bit of both, if it was a bit of both he had something in common with Jim Bainbridge, WHO SAID HE SANG A SONG BECAUSE IT WAS A GOOD SONG.
It could be argued that Old Browns Daughter was originally a pop song, it certainly was a popular song of its day being a Music Hall song, so it could be argued that O B Daughter is an example of a popsong becoming a tradtional song, because it was in the repertoire of a traditional singer, that would be logical if [as it appears to be the case] tradtional singers are classified as traditional singers because of the way they ;learned their song and their material.
would a traditional singer still be classified as such if he learned all his songs orally but they were all music hall or popular or popsongs.
Is it 100 per cent correct to still call Walter a traditional singer when he included in his repertoire GRAND MOTHERS OLD ARM CHAIR, OLD BROWNS DAUGHTER, OLD JOE THE BOAT IS GOING OVER, NAUGHTY JEMIMA BROWN THE MISTLETOE BOUGH, all of the above are composed songs of the victorian era most of which were popular in the music halls, and would have been classified as popular songs of the day or music hall songs.
Touche,Jim.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:29 AM

here is some of Walters Repertoire
Cover photo by Sylvia PitcherMT CD 305:

    Cupid the Ploughboy
    A Country Life
    The Poor Smuggler's Boy
    I'm Yorkshire Though in London
    Seventeen Come Sunday
    The Parson and the Clerk
    Blow the Winds I-O
    Hold the Fort
    All Among the Barley
    Black-Eyed Susan
    Caroline and Her Young Sailor Bold
    Lord Lovel
    The Skipper and his Boy
    Thornaby Woods
    An Old Man's Advice
    If I Were a Blackbird
    The Bonny Bunch of Roses-O
    The Green Bushes
    Polly Vaughan
    The Saucy Sailor
    Little Ball of Yarn
    The Huntsman

MT CD 306:

    Put a Bit of Powder on it, Father
    The Cuckoo
    Old Joe the Boat is Going Over
    Cock-a-Doodle-Do
    The Harland Road / Wheel Your P'rambulator
    Ben Bolt
    Uncle Walter's Tune
    Two Lovely Black Eyes
    Alice Grey
    Rosin-a-Beau
    Not for Joseph, Not for Joe
    The Old Armchair
    The Marble Arch
    Wake Up Johnny / When the Cock begins to Crow / Saving Them All for Mary / Down by the Old Abbey Ruins
    The Mistletoe Bough
    On a See-Saw
    Your Faithful Sailor Boy
    Here's to the Grog
    Nancy Lee
    Up the Chimney Pot / Slave Driving Farmers / Bound to Emigrate to New Zealand
    Husband Taming
    Uncle Walter's March
    If I Ever Get Drunk Again
    Naughty Jemima Brown
    The Dandy Man
    For Me, For Me
    While Shepherds Watched

so apart from those I have mentioned before in my last post, We also have, While Shepherds Watched, Two lovely black eyes, NOT FOR JOSEPH NOT FOR JOE. WALTER HAD AT LEAST 8 SONGS IN HIS REPERTOIRE THAT WERE NOT TRADITIONAL SONGS.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:44 AM

Have you got a storm up there Jim, its blowing a gale down here

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:53 AM

Jim, I have never EVER said to listeners 'this is a traditional song' or 'this is a folk song' - after all I've said, it would be the kind of dogmatic statement I'd avoid like a date with Edwina Currie.

I might introduce a song by saying 'I got this from e.g. Willie Scott, or Sam Cooke' as it's a bit of extra information, but it's up to the listener to put songs in categories, if they really must, certainly not my role.

There are MANY good songs in my repertoire which could be described as 'traditional' or .....perish the thought 'pop'. I do them my own way, and have never excluded anything for reasons of its provenance because I don't draw lines- other people do enough of that. If we are concerned about passing on the tradition, I would suggest that to exclude a vast proportion of 'popular music' because of some outdated and unsatisfactory definition is likely to seriously damage the chances of anyone listening and passing on this amazing music.

This has been an interesting discussion, and I'm not excluding joining it again, but for now think I've made my opinions clear on the original question (see above) so keep calm & carry on.....

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 07:01 AM

"Brian Peters, he chooses to sing a song about Fish and Chips, He clearly likes the song, I doubt if he worries about whether he thinks it is a folk song..."

Indeed he doesn't. As you suggest, Dick, I plan my set list with light and shade in mind, like any decent performer does. I don't plan my set around the 1954 definition, and neither - as far as I know - does anyone else. Doesn't mean I don't have an idea of what 'traditional' means, though.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:34 AM

"'this is a traditional song' or 'this is a folk song' "
Me neither - neither has anybody I know to an audience
What's your point?
This isn't about what you sing, whether you enjoy it or what you tell your audience - it's about how you understand it if you wish to discuss it - are you suggesting that we shouldn't do that, or it is not important, or that we should all be singalongers and shouldn't take the music we have spent our lives listening to, seriously?
"NOT FOR JOSEPH NOT FOR JOE. WALTER HAD AT LEAST 8 SONGS IN HIS REPERTOIRE THAT WERE NOT TRADITIONAL SONGS."
Walter had at least 3 or four dozen songs that were not traditional, he had a phenomenal memory and remembered everything he heard - he had read every Dickens and Thomas Hardy novel and could reel of the plots of all and thee names of the characters at the drop of a hat.
He was fully aware which songs were traditional and which were not and he very seldom, if ever sang his non traditional songs in front of an audience - though he was happy to put all of them on tape.
His knowledge of his repertoire dates back to 1949, when he first started writing down his family songs in notebooks (which we have)
We carried out a long interview with him where he itemizes his songs and described how he knew they were traditional.
He went on to describe the point at which family members of his age abandoned the family repertoire and started singing "the other stuff" - all on tape and archived.
What is your point?
You have somewhat arrogantly told us why he sang what he sang - never having met him.
He believed his traditional songs were important enough to write down from the days he came out of the Army after his war service.
"if you fecked off,I would have no one to discuss it with."
There's a lesson to b learned there Dick - perhaps you should take the hint and learn from it before it's too late.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 11:55 AM

Some great new traditional songs performed on "Sweet Liberties" tour - Cecil Sharp House was like Jodrell Bank last night with pro video cammeras all around and who knows how many digital recorders in the audience !!!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 12:49 PM

"You have somewhat arrogantly told us why he sang what he sang - never having met him"
incorrect, what I said was a fact,nothing arrogant about it, he sang certain songs at festivals or folk clubs because people had turned up to hear him sing those songs, he knew what they were expecting and obliged, no different from HARRY COX, or revival singers like Carthy. Jim, can you define tradtional?
Brian you say you know what tradtional is, what is it, does it include pop songs or music hall songs?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 12:59 PM

Walter sang the songs from his family, that is what his audience were expecting, Walter had not sang out for many years because local people scorned his family songs, when he was discovered by the uk folk revival, he sang for an audience from the uk folk revival who wanted to hear his family songs,Walter obliged, he sang for an audience who atlast wanted to hear those songs, previously to this he had not sung out because in his own words local people did not want to hear them, he sang them at home. here is a documentary[ which you are fmiliar with] about Walter which confirms this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B95JAQe1Wt
Jim, you are so sexy.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:02 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B95JAQe1Wtc

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:23 PM

"Walter had not sang out for many years because local people scorned his family songs,"
Wrong again on both counts.
Walter had nevre sung in public - not ever, until he was introduced to the folk revival.
He heard the songs sung as a boy at Christmas parties and harvest suppers - he sang only one song at them "Dark Eyed Sailor" "because nobody wanted that".
When he came back from the army in 1946, his Uncle Billy, the main source of his songs, had died, so he decided to gather the family songs together, write them down and memorise the tunes he remembered, by playing them on a melodeon.
His cousin's nephew, Roger Dixon, who was Peter Bellamy's tutor, was aware of them, and persuaded Walter top put them on tape - which he gave to Peter.
His first public singing outside the family was to Bill Leader.
His family never sang outside the home - at Christmas Parties and earlier, Harvest suppers, so they couldn't have stopped singing because the neighbours didn't like the songs.
One of the great surprises to Walter was that when the BBC came to North Walsham in the early fifties none of the surviving members of his family were recorded because the locals were not aware that they sang.
All this is a matter of record - in articles and radio programmes by Karl Dallas and Mike Yates, on radio and TV documentaries and on record sleeve notes.
Will you stop spouting "facts" that are grossly inaccurate and which you have no idea about.
We interviewed Walter extensively for twenty years - in his home and in ours.
Those interviews are in The British Library and in Dublin if you would like to verify what I say - all in Walter's own words.
The old engineers adage might suit here - please do not put the mouth in motion until the brain is fully engaged.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:29 PM

"Jim, can you define traditional?"
Course I can - can't you?
If not - plenty of books on the subject - 100s in fact
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:49 PM

Best song was called "Migs" - all about migrants!!!!!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 02:09 PM

"Brian you say you know what traditional is, what is it, does it include pop songs or music hall songs"

Possibly. Depends on whether or not they got passed on down the generations. Like I said, Dick, the topic was fully discussed three years ago, and you can always scroll back through the thread.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 02:25 PM

"The old engineers adage might suit here - please do not put the mouth in motion until the brain is fully engaged"
so why was it that Walter never sang out? come on answer MrKnow all
until the people from the UK folk revival [that you are always putting down] persuaded him to.
Give us an answer Mr know all Jim Carroll.
Walter realised or was prsuaded by Roger Dixon[ FROM THE UK FOLK REVIVAL] that the people most interested were the likes of Peter Bellamy AND SINGERS from the uk folk revival

none of this alters the fact that Walter sang the songs that his audience from the UK FOLK REVIVAL wanted to hear.
my other point is that Jim Bainbridge and Bob Davenport are doing what many traveller singers of traditional songs do, mix them up with other songs of different classifications,they sing songs on the basis of whether they think it is a good song not its classification
Audiences that go to hear those performers, expect that., in the same way they expected something different from Walter Pardon[ namely his family songs]
My next point is that if Walter had walked in to a working mens club and sang his songs in England,very few would have been interested, so much for the assertion that this is the music of working class people in England, unfortunately the vast majority prefer something else.
The last point is that if it had not been for Peter Bellamy and Roger Dixon and people interested in Trad music from the UK Folk revival, these songs would have been lost.
you are always running the UK Folk revival down ABOUT TIME YOU GAVE CREDIT TO THE UK folk revivalists WHO SAVED HIS SONGS.
come on then Jim define traditional songs, if you cannot shut up

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 04:16 PM

Dick,
The 54 definition is ONE very good definition that would be easily accepted and recognised by most of us here. Origins are irrelevant so there's no point bleating on about Music Hall. Walter's songs learnt from his own community orally all fit the definition perfectly. The word 'traditional' can be applied to a multitude of things. Anything that has a continuous past has its own traditions. If you use the word 'folk' in the same context as 'folklore' then its meaning is quite clear. Like most words in the English language the word 'folk' has come to have a variety of meanings when applied to music. The 54 definition is just one of them.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 03:07 AM

"so why was it that Walter never sang out? "
Walter was totally unaware of folk clubs; there was no singing in his area that he was aware of and hadn't been since he was a boy.

"Walter realised or was persuaded by Roger Dixon [ FROM THE UK FOLK REVIVAL]"
Wrong again, I'm afraid - Roger was not a part of the folk revival - still isn't as far as I'm aware. As I said - he was Peter Bellamy's tutor and was aware of Peter's interest in the old songs.

"none of this alters the fact that Walter sang the songs that his audience from the UK FOLK REVIVAL wanted to hear."
Nope again - he sang the songs he wanted the audience to hear that he had heard as a boy from his family; that is where his interest came from - certainly not from any revival.
He occasionally responded to requests, but he much preferred to come with a set list that he had worked on in advance – he thought the songs were worth it.
He had some of the longest songs I have heard from an English source singer, but in the 20 years we knew him I never remember him slipping up on the words in public (or anywhere else, for that matter) – not once.
Walter had a magnificent traditional repertoire; he sang them to himself at home long before he sang them in public - he sang them, memorised them, wrote them down.... in the 1940s because he liked them and thought them important - he didn't get an audience for them till the 1970s but he had known them all his life.
He wasn't a "performer" nor did he consider himself a singer - to him, the songs were worth saving so he saved them - he did that before he ever knew there was a folk scene and would have done if he had never found there was such thing as a folk club - pretty well the same as every traditional singer we've ever met - they all sang the songs irrespective of the outside world - it meant nothing to them as far as the songs went.

"ABOUT TIME YOU GAVE CREDIT TO THE UK folk revivalists WHO SAVED HIS SONGS."
What - are you mad?
He'd written them down in books and memorised the tunes long before the revival was a twinkle in anybody's eye - as did every other traditional singer.
The revival was a beneficiary of songs that had been kept alive by singers for centuries - if anybody can claim the credit for saving them; it's the Gavin Greigs, Cecil Sharps, Alan Lomaxes, the Tom Munnellys.... and all those who virtually saved them from dying off with the older generation of singers.
Some revival singers recognise the tremendous legacy they have been bequeathed, but quite often that gratitude is not accompanied by an understanding of the songs – as demonstrated by poor uninspired performances of them – and occasionally, a contempt is shown for both the songs and the singers – as on this thread.
The older singers owe us nothing, or nothing matching what we owe them – we owe them everything.
If anything, today's folk revival has done possibly irreparable damage to the future of our folk songs by having to ask stupid questions like "what is a folk song" at the same time as claiming to run "folk club", or mixing them with pop songs that have pleased listeners for a time then spat out like old chewing gum because they no longer please and have been replaced by the 'new – improved' model - breaching the trades description act or what?
Most of the singers who gave us our songs were past their prime technically, -some well past it, but they nearly all brought a depth of respect and understanding to them that is seldom reached by modern singers – a few, but not many: beautiful description of octogenarian, Phil Tanner's 'Banks of Sweet Primroses' sounding like "a young man going out first thing on a summer's morning looking for love".
Too many singers now "perform" their songs in order to "please" their audiences rather than allowing the songs to take over and dictate how they should be performed – that is not going to be helped by arguments that you only need to stand up and sing them – if they are going to work you need to feel them to, to get them to take you over.
Ewan and Peg once described Sam Larner singing a song he must have sung hundreds of times throughout his life as sounding as if he was discovering its beauty for the first time – I cannot remember a revival singer ever leaving me with that feeling.

"Mr Know Everything"
Once more – not in a thousand years.
What little I know I have learned from listening to others – in the last forty years, that has been the older generation of singers – they are the ones who held the key to these songs, and the somewhat distasteful contempt for them shown on this forum is not only ungracious, it's bloody stupid.
Those among us who think they know everything usually know nothing, and are very unlikely ever to ever to learn (too far up their own arses).
They are invariably the dullest and most unimaginative singers, no matter how technically proficient they are - the worst are usually the crowd-pleasers who try to be everything to everybody and end up pleasing none.   

"Would someone be willing to translate what he's going on about into three easy sentences, please?"
Take more than three sentences to do that I'm afraid, Modette.
I'm happy to talk to anybody, trolls and genuine enthusiasts alike, while I can talk about one of our best traditional singers (and happy to pass on everything we've ever written or found out about him) - but there comes a point when..... well, you know!!
Please don't go away.

"the word 'folk' has come to have a variety of meanings "
Still waiting to learn what it means to enough people to make it a definition Steve

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 04:46 AM

Jim -- When you write that Roger Dixon "was Peter Bellamy's tutor and was aware of Peter's interest in the old songs", in what sense his 'tutor'? At Art School? Or some sort of folk scene mentor? Or what? I don't recall Pete's ever having mentioned him to me.

Enlightenment, please...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 05:11 AM

At college (presumably art) Mike - he had nothing whatever to do with the folk scene.
His uncle Hubert, Walter's cousin, was a near neighbour of Walter's, living a couple of doors down the lane from him.
We met him on several occasions - a nice man; as far as we know, he didn't have any songs.
I think the information is on the sleeve notes of one of the Leader records.
I'd be happy to let you have the article we wrote on Walter, "A Simple Countryman?' (note the question-mark) for the Tom Munnelly Festschrift, if it's of any interest - goes for anybody of course.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 07:21 AM

Ah, yes, thank you Jim. I have some memory coming back to me, of Pete's mentioning he had met Walter thru some somewhat circuitous rout via an art school connection. Many thanks.
Thanks for offer to post your article on Walter; should be very interested to see it, as I am sure would be many.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 07:43 AM

Walters songs   were promoted by people from the uk folk revival the Godbolds, Peter Bellamy etc. He was encouraged to appear at festival and folk clubs by members of the uk folk revival., it is about time you credited those people who promoted and saved those songs, yes we all know walter saved them originally, but the people interested in those songs were people from the uk folk revival, they encouraged walter to sing out and put the songs in circulation to more people.
whether he was the greatest traditional singer is arguable, personally i prefer the singing and repertoire of Harry Cox, but that is personal opinion, just the same as you have a different opinion.
Roger Dixon clearly states that he knew a couple of the songs, check out from 8 40 to 913 onwards,
Roger also states that Walter realised that when he died that all the songs that he knew that had been handed on from his family that those songs would die with him , Roger then says that he knew one or two of them, HE SUGGESTED TO WALTER TO PUT THEM ON REEL TO REEL.and that Roger would take them to UK Folk Revialist Peter Bellamy, clear your ears out, or listen again, you inattentive person.Roger then goes on to say how Peter Bellamy forced his hand., by saying that he would arrive by train on a particular day
Start Listening and start giving credit to Peter Bellamy you miserable old curmudgeon

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 08:10 AM

Not really interested in your trolling inanities Dick - you obviously are not prepared to credit our traditional singers with their contribution - as you have made perfectly clear in the past
Nor am I interested in your ongoing insulting behaviour towards anybody who disagrees with you - please take it elsewhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 08:40 AM

do nt be ridiculous,,Icertainly do credit and give importance to tradtional singers who put this clip up here about Walter When are you going to acknowledge the importance of Peter Bellamy and the UK FOLK REVIVAL IN ALL THIS?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 09:42 AM

Mike
Have tried to post to you but the e-mail address I have bounced
Can you let me have the correct one - PM or e-mail (I think you have mine)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 10:43 AM

Jim,
As we've said many times before, not everything is easily definable. Most, probably all genres, music/literature etc. have numerous overlaps into other genres. That doesn't invalidate them. At best they can only have loose descriptors. If you wish I'm sure we could come up with a long list of these loose descriptors for 'folk music' but it would make this already too long thread twice as long.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 11:16 AM

According to my mrs, and a huge number of the rest of them from the country she comes from..

Tom Jones's "Delilah" is well on it's way to becoming a 'traditional' song, if not even an unofficial national anthem... 😜

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 11:51 AM

"As we've said many times before, not everything is easily definable."
It has a clar enough definition - I've always found it workable as a rule-of-thumb.
Of course there are overlaps - but again, that is not what is being discussed here -
What is being suggested that the existing definition is no longer valid and must be abandon and replaced with - well, nothing really - and this by a tiny handful of self- interested people - you really should know as a researcher that that is nonsense and should it ever become accepted practice all the accumulated knowledge of our music would be meaningless - you`only need look at the damage to the club scene to see what can happen.
People need to say why such and such a song is folk - so far, it doesn't amount to a minuscule number of people saying "because I say it is" no rationale or even attempt at rational.
We already fave to pay performing rights taxes to put on an listen to what is supposed to be in the public domain - do you never wonder how much it would cost to run a club where Beatles (or Tom Jones Punkie) numbers are the order of the day.
As for folk ever being accepted as "the people's music" - forget that pipe-dream.
If we had a living, thriving tradition, there may be a point to all this, but our popular culture today is a passively received one, not a participatory one - deliberately so, because it is now a major industry.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 12:16 PM

The thing about passive reception is, just how passive...???

It's not like the 'masses' are attached by drip feed to their PCs, phones, tellys and radios...
Even though it might appear so in some folk's worst nightmare's....

..and experience shows that performing rights taxes are of little concern and completely ignored
in most day to day musical interactions...

..and again, folk clubs aren't the be all and end all to a lot of us out here...

But I understand & appreciate your history and prioritising of them.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 12:28 PM

"It's not like the 'masses' are attached by drip feed to their PCs, phones, tellys and radios.."
Aren't they - hmmm?
My point is, and always has been that the people as a whole no longer play a part in the creation and dissemination - it is no more 'ours' than a tin of processed peas bought at Sainsburys
Our only role is as a customer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 12:47 PM

If they use these new fangled pencils to write down the words, it isn't folk. It must be a quill or it fails the 1854 interpretation.

Any idea how silly the debate is? Meanwhile, most people (and especially I'm glad to say an increasing young set of performers and audience) know what they mean when you say folk. To Jim Carroll it's something to do with Walter Pardon. To many in The USA it's something to do with Joan Baez. To many in The UK it's whatever you listened to in folk clubs over the years.

But it's folk all to to with one opinion over any other.

By the way, when you reach the impossible consensus on what folk is, the thread asks you consider it against pop music. What does that mean? (I'll check back in ten years.)