Can a pop song become traditional?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 11:17 AM

But it also seemingly states

"The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."

So what I was pointing out is that the Scottish folk community as a whole regards brand new compositions by Scottish singer songwriters as Trad when the said works have not been refashioned and recreated by the community over time? I take it what makes qualify is if it is mostly acoustic and might have a wee bit fiddle or something in the background. In other words it sounds kind of folky so it is regarded as Trad! The short list for this years composers is based on recent compositions. They are in line for trad awards now - not in years to come when the compositions have been refashioned.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Larry the Radio Guy
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 01:34 PM

Looking at that list that Vic Smith posted......virtually all those songs would be ones considered 'folk' or 'folk oriented' in North America singarounds, etc.

Virtually all of them (even the traditional ones) are usually associated with one particular version.....although with something like Tom Dooley, somebody will always come up and perform and older version.   Which is great.

I'm wondering if any of those......from whatever definition you want to use, ever become 'traditional'.....and, if so, what would have to happen.

And is it possible for a song that we don't think of 'traditional' today to become traditional in the future? How?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 03:57 PM

Re. Allan Conn's post anent the Scots Traditional Music Awards -- I'm fairly certain that the contemporary music which is being recognised is instrumental, but composed by musicians who are usually steeped in traditional styles.

Singers who might be rewarded on the night will probably be singing a majority of traditional songs (or perhaps modern songs in a traditional way), but I can't think of any performer who would be offering 'a pop song' for consideration.

So, again going back to the original question, my answer would still be NO. (As a child of the 60s, there are many of the pop songs of that era that I can only sing along with an approximation of the big guitar riff -- which suggests that it exists as a 'complete' entity and implies that any deviation is unimaginable, so the folk process is on a hiding to nothing.)

But, by the same token, I have absolutely no difficulty in imagining that a vast number of the tunes recently composed -- in march, strathspey, jig or reel time -- by musicians such as Willie Hunter, Ian Hardie, Phil Cunningham, Aly Bain et al will eventually (and more likely sooner rather than later) be taken in to the tradition.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 04:15 PM

"Tom Dooley" is an old North Carolina folk song based on the 1866 murder of a woman named Laura Foster in Wilkes County, North Carolina, allegedly by Tom Dula. The song is best known today because of a hit version recorded in 1958 by The Kingston Trio.
ON TOP OF OLD SMOKEY.
Fans of English football League One side Notts County FC chant the song during games. However, they have changed the lyrics to 'I had a wheelbarrow, the wheel fell off' after mishearing a Shrewsbury Town fan sing the original song in a west country accent.

In 1978, "On Top of Old Smokey" was released by Swedish pop group ABBA as part of a medley that also included "Pick a Bale of Cotton" and "Midnight Special". The medley featured as the B-side to the group's single "Summer Night City".

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 07:06 PM

Well for a start whether it is intrumental or not is beside the point. If a tune or song is just composed but is regarded as being traditional then it is being regarded as traditional because of what it sounds like not because of it being written by anon and passed down through the generations. More importantly though Anne you are simply wrong in your assertion that all the composers in the run for awards compose only tunes. They don't and some could easily fall into the singer-songwriter more pop tradition. Re two examples below of those in line for awards taken from the MG Alba Scot Trad Awards site also posted below


https://soundcloud.com/abadgeoffriendship/sorren-maclean-rows-rows-of-3/s-XHiR4?in=folk-radio-uk/sets/scots-trad-music-awards-20

https://soundcloud.com/folk-radio-uk/ross-ainslie-dreaming-daisy/s-XHiR4?in=folk-radio-uk/sets/scots-trad-music-awards-2015



http://www.folkradio.co.uk/2015/11/mg-alba-scots-trad-music-awards-album-of-the-year/

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 07:11 PM

Sorry first link didn't work.

https://soundcloud.com/abadgeoffriendship/sorren-maclean-rows-rows-of-3/s-XHiR4?in=folk-radio-uk/sets/scots-trad-music-awards-20

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 07:17 PM

For some reason the Sorren Maclean example not working but to access that second example click on the bottom of the three links on my first example email. Scroll down to Composer of the Year and there are 6 examples. One is the Ross Ainslie song as posted and another is the Sorren Maclean. Both could, but Macleans especially could, sit in a more pop category.

Just saying that the Scottish folk music family doesn't seem to be hung up on the narrow definition

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 08:52 PM

Hi, Allan.

Can't say I agree with your assessments for the Scottish Traditional Music Awards.

I'm not convinced by the links from you that I could access and I have serious doubts about the lasting potential of the music posted.

My bottom line is that a song/communication needs to connect with someone/audience in a meaningful way, which suggests that it should be a) meaningful b) linked to their life somehow and c) appropriate to future expectations.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:57 AM

"Just saying that the Scottish folk music family doesn't seem to be hung up on the narrow definition"

Nor should it be. The narrow definition is for folklorists and scholars. If a piece of music can be said to be in a traditional style, or even if it merely draws on traditional styles and influences, then why shouldn't it have a place in the modern folk music community?

As I said previously, the Scottish Traditional Music Awards are very clearly using the word to mean a particular style, rather than in an academic sense, and they possibly take a fairly broad view of what that style encompasses. In that context, I see nothing wrong in the way they use it and I'm not going to argue that it's wrong to have a section for newly-written pieces. However in a different context I might argue that an unaltered piece by a known composer is not "traditional", albeit that it may be in a wholly traditional style and may very likely become "traditional" over time.

This is about the terms used to describe music, so it is about language rather than the music itself. Context is crucial to the understanding of language. Most of the time the context should be obvious, and the terms used should be interpreted accordingly. It seems to me that all too often the arguments which break out on here are because someone has ignored the context and tried to apply an interpretation which isn't appropriate to the discussion. There are times when pedantry and precision are required, and times when they are not.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 04:10 AM

Not really sure what you mean by "not convinced Anne" I am simply posting what is up for the Trad Music Awards this year. I have not created this list just sent links to it. The Sorren Maclean link (which I tried twice) for some reason doesn't work but it can be accessed through the folk radio link itself. It lists all the nominees in each category and gives examples. You said "I'm fairly certain that the contemporary music which is being recognised is instrumental" so I simply posted the links to show that your assumption was mistaken!

If anyone can't access the folk page link then just google "Sorren Maclean Soundcloud" and it brings up his page and the song "Rows And Rows Of Boxes" which is the one on the folk radio url.

As to the value of the music shown? Well I wasn't commenting on that anyway. That is just personal taste. I simply showed that the Scottish Trad Awards have a category for Composers Of The Year" and within that category there is music which could easily fit within the pop category too.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 09:35 AM

Maybe the fact that modern compositions fit easily into the 'folk' or 'traditional' categories at the Scottish awards may well be due to the fact that there is a much greater value placed on the tradition in Scotland.

It may appear to outsiders a bit chauvinistic at times, but it's a fact that a majority of all Scots could list(& even sing) a series of older 'folk' or 'traditional' songs when most non-folkie English would struggle to do the equivalent. So they have real criteria on which to base their judgement. It may sound like 'pop' music to Sassenach ears but who are we to judge?

In Ireland, the same principle applies, but even more so

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 11:26 AM

To tell you the truth I just posted the details about the Scot Trad Awards because I'd seen them listed. I'm sure pop type songs make their way into the general UK Folk Awards too. In fact they do. This song written by Andy Patridge won the best original song in the 2009 BBC Folk Awards as performed by Jim Moray.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbzefMQt2o0

The song though was originally a single for Patridge's band XTC about 25 years earlier! So a pop song from 1984 wins a Folk Award 25 years after it was originally released?? The point being that a standard pop song is turned into a folk award winner just by different instrumentation and who is singing it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfw1uW8_JWU

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 11:49 AM

"In Ireland, the same principle applies, but even more so"
Not in the slightest
As with Britain, pop music in American based (complete with the strange Mid-Atlantic accent) and bears no resemblence to traditional music.
As for a "Sassenach ear" - Irish Traditional music is probably the most international;y recognised in its truest form than any other national music - not too long ago, you were more likely to hear it in London than you were in Ireland - it can now be heard worldwide - this one-street town welcomes wannabe musicians from all over the world once a year for the Willie Clancy Summer School - most traditional instruments and styles are taught here for a week.
We really aren't a dark continent indulging in traditional that "the stranger does not know"
If you want to hear traditional music as it his played here (at present only five nights a week - in the Summer months the music starts on Monday and finishes on Sunday - from May to September) - try the 'Gradam Ceoil TG4 - The Traditional Irish Music Awards' - plenty of examples of youngsters playing like veteran virtuosos
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 11:52 AM

just shows what a lot of cobblers these award wannabe celeb shows are

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 12:14 PM

May well be a good point Guest. But to the original question. Can a pop song become traditional? That is debatable and depends on what is meant by traditional. But a pop song can certainly win a Folk Award for original composition!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 12:28 PM

"just shows what a lot of cobblers these award wannabe celeb shows are"
What exactly "goes to show"?
You can't enter "Gradam Ceoil " to be selected - the musicians are selected for an award on the basis of their ongoing work as musicians.
You insist on hiding behind your 'guest' identity to spread your bile, so I premium you are neither a musician or singer, just, what we call here, 'a begrudger'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 12:45 PM

If you want to hear traditional music as it his played here (at present only five nights a week - in the Summer months the music starts on Monday and finishes on Sunday - from May to September) - try the 'Gradam Ceoil TG4 - The Traditional Irish Music Awards' - plenty of examples of youngsters playing like veteran virtuosos"
a matter of opinion, their competence cannot be disputed, however what i hear on TG4 on some occasions are musicians who technically are very good, but who lack something[ a joie de vivre] that can be heard on recordngs like paddy in the smoke, those irish musicians who were forced to emigrate and who were working during the week, and who clearly looked forward to meeting up with other irish musicians there is an enthuisam ,that is missing [to my ears] it could be that with TG4 the muscians have to play the music over and over so that photographers can get good shots, it is not always the best music that is selected for the programmes.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 01:14 PM

Larry, they are considered folk in The UK too.

There's supposed to be one in every village, we have a commune of them here on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:52 PM

You really are a plonker Jim Carroll- watch your telly if you want, others are playing the music, including me....

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 07:32 PM

"watch your telly if you want, others are playing the music, including me.."
I'll have to take your word for that since you make your snide attacks anonymously - as do all our trolls
Can't be up to much if you don't have the bottle to give us your name.
There really isn't much to be said for appearing on tele or the media - been there, done that - three television appearances this year and six radio programmes (all to promote the singers you have sneeringly referred to as "old codgers").
Three years ago it was a three-part radio series on your work with Travellers 'Come All you Loyal Travellers' on Lyric FM.
Then before that - three programmes on our Clare CD 'Around The Hills of Clare' tall "old codgers again I'm afraid.
Due to make another for Radio Kerry on our collecting in Ireland in the not-too-distant future.
Think it was three radio programmes and part of a four part television series on traditional storytelling in the U.K. - shit - "old codgers again"
We (Pat and I) appeared under our own name, so it' all checkable.
Anyway, getting on tele is not what it's all about - as far as we're concerned - tends to get in the way of the real work.
You want a pissing competition - dream on bro!
"but who lack something "
Begrudgery nonsense Dick and this time aims at young kids - shame on you.
You have been promoting Comhaltas' 'playing by numbers' style of playing which is designed to win competitions for as long as you have been on this forum - noted for its 'playing by the rulebook' for the adjudicator.
The kids that break free of the competition ethos become beter musicians, but under the dead hand of CCE (once described as by one of the greatest influential figures in Irish music as "an organisation with a great future behind it" - very little chance.
You want to knock youngsters playing - do so if that's what turns you on - I prefer to talk about the success and failure of the teachers.
Suggest that if you think youngsters lack a joie de vivre - go listen to Edel Fox or Padráic Keane and tell us there's not 'joy of living' in it
PADRÁIC KEANE
You'll never reach that standard while you've got a hole in your arse.
For those who don't know Padráic - he is the grandson of the late Tom McCarthy - the London-based piper and concertina player - now the third generation - would Tom have been proud of him!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:26 AM

Yes, pop songs can become traditional.

Why has it taken so many posts to answer a very obvious question?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:28 AM

Jim, I am talking about the way TV trad music is recorded., for the programmes you mentioned, nothing else.
no mention of CCE by me[ although i happen to agree with you on that]neither have i referred to live music, I suggest you re read my post carefully or go to spec savers, and stop claiming i have said things that i have not.
you really are tedious.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:51 AM

It is absoutely clear from my posts that I amn referring to TV trad music programmes. HERE IS WHAT I SAID.in reply to Jims statement
"If you want to hear traditional music as it his played here (at present only five nights a week - in the Summer months the music starts on Monday and finishes on Sunday - from May to September) - try the 'Gradam Ceoil TG4 - The Traditional Irish Music Awards' - plenty of examples of youngsters playing like veteran virtuosos"
      a matter of opinion, their competence cannot be disputed, however what i hear on TG4 on some occasions are musicians who technically are very good, but who lack something[ a joie de vivre] that can be heard on recordngs like paddy in the smoke, those irish musicians who were forced to emigrate and who were working during the week, and who clearly looked forward to meeting up with other irish musicians there is an enthuisam ,that is missing [to my ears] it could be that with TG4 the muscians have to play the music over and over so that photographers can get good shots, it is not always the best music that is selected for the programmes.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:59 AM

"Why has it taken so many posts to answer a very obvious question?"
Because they can't my anonymous friend and you with all your trollism have failed to show with all your insulting and abusive postings and your refusal to respond to what people have to say are the last person to claim to have left anything here but a sour taste in thye mouth.
Dick - want to go back and count the number of times you have spoken up for CCE and its competitions on this forum - no ?
Didn't think so!
You and your abusive postings is as much of a troll as the Man in Black here, which is why people regard you the way they do and why you get thrown off discussion forums.
I have no intention of responding to your posts any more - it nauses up threads.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 05:52 AM

re read my posts, you have your wires crossed. What has CCE got do with this.
I have frequently made my criticisms of CCE clear on this forum.
Jim, which member of this forum was stopped from posting to Musical Tradtions?it was not me.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 08:26 AM

told you.... he's a plonker, total and utter- surprising he's learned so little despite all the work he says he's done

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 11:34 AM

GUEST Date: 04 Dec 15 - 08:26 AM makes a personal attack on Jim Carroll and manages to lower the discussion which has - in the main - been quite useful. In another recent thread, I had occasion to defend someone else who I felt was being the subject of an anonymous unjust comment. This was followed by an intervention which said [Post deleted as anonymous attack. Those who post anonymously in the music section are expected to be on their best behavior. -Joe Offer-]
I feel that the post that I mention and a similar previous one is a case for another intervention.
Over to you, Joe....

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 01:52 PM

Hear, hear!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 07:35 PM

Having read the posts above and the comment from a moderator, perhaps my post saying this is an obvious question deserves better than the poster Jim Carroll calling it trolling? To then read someone saying Mr Carroll has been attacked makes one wonder why.... His insistence that his view is fact rather than his view is bad enough, but letting him abuse others isn't the "best behaviour" the moderator seems to be wanting.

How he assumes someone who wishes to remain anonymous is the same person as any other anonymous person is beyond me. Prejudice? Possibly, but defending an absurd notion is more like it.

It ruins a decent thread. Mr Carroll, whoever he is, should be ashamed.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Larry the Radio Guy.
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 11:11 PM

So, can we get back to the topic?   Can a 'popular' or 'pop' song ever become 'traditional'.   What would have to happen for that to occur?   I'm interested in this by whomever's definition of 'traditional'.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 04:21 AM

"better than the poster Jim Carroll calling it trolling? "
I have put my argument as to why don't believe modern songs can become pop songs - you have responded with personal insults, ageist attacks on the people who were generous enough to pass on their songs to us and without whom we would have had nothing to sing, and with an attitude which sums up as 'they can because I say they can' not unsimilar to 'a song is a folk song because I choose to call it a folk song' - not very convincing, I'm afraid.
Some popular songs have become traditional in the past because the process that made it possible, an active, creative and recreated oral tradition, was still in working order - that is no longer the case.
Modern songs come out fully formed and with the owners stamp clearly displayed on their behinds - they can never belong to 'the folk' - they will always belong to the owner.
Any passage through any oral tradition that may remain is controlled by that ownership - by law.
The only chance of them becoming traditional is if they are parodied - happened a lot in Liverpool where I grew up
One parody I remember took a hit song of the time 'That's Amore' and made it:

"When your boil suppurates and it runs on your plate, salmonella"

Don't know if it ever got any further than the Liverpool Docklands - but it had left home and become something else.
People have argued that 'You'll Never Walk Alone' has become traditional - don't agree - the tradition is far more complicated and creative than simple repetition - it involves, creation, re-creation, passing on, recreation again and passing on again - ad infinitum, and in each place that happens, those involved claim it as their own.
We have been staggered over the last forty years while recording in rural Ireland and Irish Travellers in London by how many songs we found that possibly originated in Scotland or England, yet which the singers insisted were "Clare songs" or "Travellers' songs", or "Irish songs" - or even "Miltown Malbay songs" - that is a sign that a song is part of an oral tradition.
We were recording a 95 year old singer last year (sorry guest, it wasn't his fault he was old) here in Clare - he gave us 'Catherine Jaffrey', 'The Keach in the Creel', Lord Bateman', 'Lord Lovell', 'The Suffolk Miracle' and 'The Girl With the Box on her Head' "all good Irish songs"!
On top of these imports and the hundreds of Irish-made songs we recorded, we have discovered a tradition we were totally unaware of, of local songs made during the lifetimes of the singers, reflecting local happenings, big and small, from protests over land distribution, local Fairs, The West Clare Railway, an ambush of Black and Tans leading to the destruction of three towns, a shipwreck.... down to a local man going out on a bender and getting barred out of all the pubs.
All of these songs are anonymous, and the people we asked, if they hadn't heard them they remember the events.
As our old singer said, "in them days, if a feller farted in church, somebody made a song about it".
That is a tradition in action, now, alas gone.
The fact that some people might choose to use the terms 'traditional" and "folk" because it gives the songs that happen to like some sort of status or title, doesn't make that use a valid definition.
Similarly, if a mass of people misuse the term out of ignorance because that are not involved in the music, we don't take on those misuses and manipulated definitions as valid until they are taken up by enough people to have become identifiable, agreed upon definitions in themselves - a quantum physicist, or a botanist, or an electrician... whoever, goes on what they know and have learned, not on what somebody else doesn't know and is not interested in.
The problem with all these discussions is that any attempt to arrive at an agreement is looked on as a criticism of somebody else's musical tastes - it isn't, and it never should be.   
As far as I'm concerned, it is an attempt to create a situation in which we can discuss our interests in folk music in a friendly and helpful manner so that we can pass on what we think we know and benefit from the knowledge of others on a forum that describes itself as being about"Traditional Music and Folklore Collection and Community" without nastiness and abuse -   
It seems to me a crying ***** shame that we can't "what is a folksong" has become as taboo as sleeping with your sister.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 04:29 AM

"How he assumes someone who wishes to remain anonymous is the same person as any other anonymous person is beyond me."

There have been a number of anonymous 'Guest' posts here, often making frivolous points or aiming personal abuse at Jim Carroll. Why on earth should someone else choosing to post as an anonymous 'Guest' expect the benefit of the doubt?

As to the idea that this is an 'obvious question', I'd have thought the large number of thoughtful and well-argued posts here would be sufficient demonstration that there is no 'obvious' answer.

To Larry: I think the question has been thoroughly explored by now (Howard Jones' recent posts have been very useful). To sum up, yes, a pop song could in theory become traditional, but this becomes increasingly unlikely in a culture without a widespread singing tradition, and in which pop songs are universally known by a single, iconic version. That's what I think, anyway.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 05:10 AM

Judging by the criteria laid down for a piece to become "traditional" and "folk" it would seem, in the 21st century, that we will witness the complete demise of traditional folk music.

Even Jim by recording material and placing it in the public domain is actively creating it's death.

So we'll have to stick to what the rest of us know as folk music.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,keith price
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 05:55 AM

Raggytash could you please give a definition on "what the rest of us know as folk music "

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 06:11 AM

My own definition ................. oh bugger!

How about Music of the people, for the people, by the people.

That covers a multitude of sins and I fully expect to be shot down any second now.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 06:25 AM

"that we will witness the complete demise of traditional folk music."
The making and passing on as I describes began to die towards the end of the 19th century in Britain - with a few notable exceptions - this was what motivated Sharp and his cronies to mount a rescue operation to save what was still remembered.
A bit later in Ireland but that was the case when we started collecting in the 70s (again, with a few notable exceptions)
Even what was being remembered had to be rescued by the Beeb in the 1950s because it was disappearing rapidly.
Our friend, Tom Munnelly, who collected more songs than any single individual in these islands, described his job as full time collector as "a race with the undertaker" - that was back in the 70s.
That traditional songs will remain to be collected third or forth hand from someone who remembered meeting someone who remembers meeting someone who remembers them being sung is a very welcome inevitability - long may that continue to happen, but the only singers we met, with the exception of Travellers, who actually participated in a living tradition are all dead - the rest learned them from the previous generation.
Moving the goalposts of what you mean by tradition only clouds the issue - it doesn't help us to continue to listen to or sing or pass on these songs - as is shown by the decline of folk clubs.
We worked with MacColl (another taboo subject) who wrote more songs than anyone I can name, and who insisted that clubs were "no more than museums is they didn't cater for and encourage the making of new songs - he was quite clear of what he meant by folk songs and was insistent that what he wrote didn't fall under that description and never would unless they passed through the oral process (he was delighted that Travellers took up some of his songs and Sam Larner thought Shoals of Herring had been around forever (though he didn't know a word of it))
Folk songs can be immortal if they are not swamped out by other songs because it is convenient for some to do so.
They are as timeless as Shakespeare or Dickens, despite the general disinterest and sometimes hostility shown towards all of these.
They can still entertain, inform and move if they are allowed to.
But just as importantly, they provide an ideal template to make new songs that do the same job as the old ones did - allow us all to express ourselves; Ewan's, Peggy's, Con 'Fada' O'Driscoll's, Tim Lyons's Fintan Vallely's, Adam McNaughton's, Eric Bogle's.... and all the other great songwriter's new creations prove that beyond the shadow of a doubt.
That they are not traditional is unimportant - that's only a name - a label to identify what they we are talking about so we can make people aware of them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 08:46 AM

To the anonymous poster GUEST Date: 04 Dec 15 - 07:35 PM

I won't be drawn into futile arguments on Facebook but I will allow myself one post to explain the irritation that myself and others who object to anonymous posts of insults on Mudcat. I will quote from that post to help me to do this:-

His (by this GUEST means Jim Carroll) insistence that his view is fact rather than his view is bad enough, but letting him abuse others isn't the "best behaviour" the moderator seems to be wanting.
If any Mudcat member has an objection to a post by another member, he can take this up with that member without cluttering up the flow by using Mudcat's 'private message' system. I have used this method on several occasions in the past; with anonymous guests we can only object in the thread - and clutter it up.

How he assumes someone who wishes to remain anonymous is the same person as any other anonymous person is beyond me
It is beyond all of us to identify between anonymous posters and that is one reason why the moderators call for anonymous posters to be on their 'best behaviour'.

It ruins a decent thread. Mr Carroll, whoever he is, should be ashamed.
This from the anonymous poster who identifies themselves as the person who posted the phrase he's a plonker, total and utter. Any chance of such a phrase ruining a decent thread?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 10:14 AM

I'm in the process of digitising our vinyl collection and I came across this as part of the notes to a 'Folk Legacy album - it was written by a much-missed contributor to this forum, Sandy Paton.
I believe that it is relevant to this discussion as it touches on the effect of copyright on tradition song – a part of this argument yet to be responded to by those who claim that pop songs can become traditional.
Sandy's track-record in making available traditional recordings through his magnificent Folk Legacy label gives him a voice on matters such as this, as far as I'm concerned.

Many, many thanks for your thoughtful comments Vic - will respond to your PM either when things get quieter or when I get my head around multi-tasking!!
Jim Carroll   

13   Rich Girl, Poor Girl
This is related to a Negro song of variations on the same title ("Brown Girl, Black Girl", "White Girl, Brown Girl, My Girl", etc.).
Editor's Note: The vast number of bawdy verses generally found with this song would indicate that it has led quite a colorful life through its years of oral transmission. The structure of the song, in both its Negro and white versions, certainly lends itself to individual invention. Scholars studying the processes of oral transmission have found their work vastly complicated by the effect of the stall ballad or broadside, the songster, and the early recordings of country music on oral tradition. It has been observed that only in the case of blatantly bawdy material can the folklorist be sure that his collectanea is free of such influences. When Hank Ferguson originally recorded this song for Bruce Jackson, he had no way of knowing that it might, eventually, be used in an album produced for sale to the general public. At that time, he freely sang those verses which clearly establish that he could have learned the song only from oral sources. At our own recording ses¬sion, he chose to omit those verses. This note is inserted here for a particular reason: in recent years,   several copy¬rights have been filed on this song, or, rather, on "arrange¬ments" of this song, which brings up an important point — namely,   the difficulty in assessing the validity of copy¬rights now being filed on traditional or semi-traditional material.   This difficulty is becoming increasingly obvious to those who are working in the field of folksong and is causing a great deal of discussion among folklorists, both in America and in Great Britain, who, almost unanimously, deplore the attempts of individuals to possess, privately, portions of that traditional heritage which properly, it would seem,   should remain the property of all the people. I realize that this observation is not especially appropriate in this particular instance,   "Rich Girl,   Poor Girl1* being an unimportant song by comparison.    But the unfortunate fact re¬mains that a number of professional performers and songwriters are currently filing copyrights by the score on songs which have been in oral tradition for years — indeed, in many cases for centuries. We, of Folk-Legacy Records, Inc., share the growing concern of the academic folklorists in this regard and look forward, with them, to a prompt and thorough examination and legal resolution of the problem.
S.P.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 10:24 AM

This post is cut and paste from the Facebook page Folk21. This is a well-supported British Folk Club discussion page with an intelligent and interesting bent. It is made all the more interesting by the fact that no anonymous posts are allowed and any evidence of trolling or members posting insulting comments are removed straight away.
The post that I am copying is from the singer-songwriter George Papavgeris, a man I know and respect and who is, in my opinion, one of the finest songwriters operating on the British folk scene. He is also one of the most active, most proselytising members of Folk 21 and dedicated to promoting folk and folk-related music in clubs and small venues in the UK. I find his post very interesting but rather worrying:-

"This will put the contemporary cat among the traditional pigeons. I am posting it not to generate argument, but only to point out that 60-year old definitions notwithstanding, here are the stewards of English folk music and song pinning their colours to the mast, proving the futility of the "horse" argument. You might therefore want to use this next time someone starts about repertoires, permissible content in clubs etc etc.

In the December edition of EDS (the EFDSS magazine) the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library put out a call for "contemporary English folk recordings", to augment and grow the relevant library section. When I contacted them and asked if by this they meant simply "contemporary recordings of traditional music", or whether they also wanted recently written music, this was their response:

"Dear George, thanks for your email. We would include both those types in our coverage. We do collect composed songs that are now part of the folk genre.
Natalie Bevan, Librarian
The Vaughan Williams Memorial Library
English Folk Dance and Song Society "

And who knows, 50 years from now someone could be swearing blind that "Hail! Hail the First of May" is traditional (and not written by Dave Webber).

Oh - I forgot. they do that already."

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Larry the Radio Guy
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 11:28 AM

Thanks folks. There seems to be a general consensus among people in the know that 'traditional' music is no longer a 'living tradition', because "the owners stamp is clearly displayed" so they can never belong to the 'folk' but to the owner.   But there might be a possibility relating to song parodies.

Also difficult due to a lack of a widespread singing tradition in our culture.

Any other views?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 11:41 AM

I have never used the word plonker, on account of not being a star of an '80s sitcom.

Amazing that not only Jim Carroll reckons anyone choosing, as Mudcat allows, to remain anonymous says the same as the next anonymous person, but Vic Smith exhibits the same illogical conclusion.

If saying that pop songs can become traditional makes me ageist, I feel I cannot carry any debate with the irrational diatribe coming from Jim Carroll. To defend him may seem a kind notion but makes you look a fool.

I repeat. A pop song can become traditional. That is my view and that is what we have seen in many instances. All the terms are subjective anyway so standing at the shoreline commanding the tide to go away looks as silly now as it did 1200 years ago.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 11:55 AM

Can a pop song become traditional?
It can if it's simply transitional.
The changes we fear
In the songs we hold dear
Are just aspects of questions conditional.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 11:56 AM

"I have never used the word plonker"
Was this not you then - remember, if you deny yourself three times before the cock crows, you won't go to heaven
Jim Carroll
"You really are a plonker Jim Carroll- "
"he's a plonker, total and utter- surprising he's learned so little despite all the work he says he's done"
"If saying that pop songs can become traditional makes me ageist"
NO, but this does.
"I don't exactly call an old man crooning out of tune into a cheap microphone entertainment."
Was that not you?
If not, the adjudicators here really have to sort out this "guest" policy
You all come over as the same person/troll.
You have my arguments - I would be very grateful if your would respond to them rather than distorting them or pretending that they haven't been given
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 01:37 PM

> lack of a widespread singing tradition in our culture.

This is the key, possibly even more important than copyright.

A copyrighted song sung in a family circle with all sorts of changes, additions, variations, etc. - and no real sense of who wrote it - would be well on its way to being a "traditional" song. No lawyers could prevent it, though they might well keep you from publishing it in a collection.

But most everyone who sings nowadays wants to sing commercially recorded versions in the commercially recorded way. If you forget the words, you listen to the download. And everyone knows the name of the popularizing singer, if not of the songwriter.

If you went around recording amateur performances of pop songs, I think you'd find that they didn't vary much - or at least not very interestingly - from the official, copyrighted versions.

Parodies and rugby-type songs, of course, are the exceptions (for now), but they're almost all humorous, which is a restriction the older repertoire didn't labor under.

"Shoals of Herring" is close to being unique as a carefully composed song which was then appropriated, with no sense of authorship, by the very people it talked about.

But the few collected versions show few interesting changes, and the number of fishermen who actually sing it is minuscule compared with the tens of millions who sing (or hum) the latest hits.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 02:30 PM

Are any of you really interested in parodies? I must admit that I cringe whenever someone starts singing one of these, either sing a traditional song, or write your own stuff, one or the other.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 05:52 PM

Somewhat narrow-minded view, Dave, but each to his/her own.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 05:58 PM

I rest my case.

Cock a doodle feckin' doooooooo

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 09:55 AM

In reference to the very first post.....I have heard many different versions of '6 Days on the Road'.......and most people have no memory of the first 'hit' recording by Dave Dudley.   So could John Cohen have been right when he said that song may be somewhere along the continuum of entering an oral tradition?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 10:33 AM

Would the songs of Stan Rogers now be part of the folk tradition..they seem to be in parts of eastern Canada. This is a confusing issue.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 01:13 PM

Like Vic, I don't need to waste too much time on points of Mudcat principle, but this stuff is really pathetic.

"Amazing that not only Jim Carroll reckons anyone choosing, as Mudcat allows, to remain anonymous says the same as the next anonymous person, but Vic Smith exhibits the same illogical conclusion."

Nothing amazing about it. If you don't want to be mistaken for the next anonymous person, do something to distinguish yourself. There are plenty on here using a regular pseudonym.

"I feel I cannot carry any debate with the irrational diatribe coming from Jim Carroll. To defend him may seem a kind notion but makes you look a fool."

Jim Carroll is well able to defend himself, but I will say that - although I don't agree with him on everything by any means - he is far better-informed and articulate than most of his detractors on here. He has brought his knowledge to bear directly on the present discussion in a way that puts to shame 'because-I-say-so' statements like: "I repeat. A pop song can become traditional. That is my view and that is what we have seen in many instances."

"All the terms are subjective anyway so standing at the shoreline commanding the tide to go away looks as silly now as it did 1200 years ago"

'Traditional' has a specific meaning in the context of folk song. And if you can be 200 years out on the reign of Cnut, how seriously are we supposed to take the rest of your ideas?