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Whitby 2012

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GUEST,old git 26 Aug 12 - 09:03 AM
GUEST 26 Aug 12 - 09:17 AM
GUEST 26 Aug 12 - 10:22 AM
BobKnight 26 Aug 12 - 10:42 AM
Joe Nicholson 26 Aug 12 - 11:18 AM
Northerner 26 Aug 12 - 12:35 PM
John MacKenzie 26 Aug 12 - 01:22 PM
Michael 26 Aug 12 - 02:24 PM
Diva 26 Aug 12 - 02:57 PM
dick greenhaus 26 Aug 12 - 06:41 PM
Liberty Boy 27 Aug 12 - 02:17 AM
BobKnight 27 Aug 12 - 04:47 AM
Diva 27 Aug 12 - 09:00 AM
Red and White Rabbit 27 Aug 12 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Wombat 27 Aug 12 - 11:47 AM
Linda Kelly 27 Aug 12 - 12:38 PM
banjoman 28 Aug 12 - 05:20 AM
BobKnight 28 Aug 12 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Bri 28 Aug 12 - 06:24 AM
John MacKenzie 28 Aug 12 - 08:21 AM
Steve Gardham 28 Aug 12 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,Fyldeplayer 28 Aug 12 - 12:22 PM
Willa 28 Aug 12 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Les 28 Aug 12 - 05:16 PM
GUEST 28 Aug 12 - 05:40 PM
Matthew Edwards 28 Aug 12 - 05:46 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Aug 12 - 06:45 PM
mally 29 Aug 12 - 04:27 PM
Jack Campin 29 Aug 12 - 04:28 PM
Matthew Edwards 29 Aug 12 - 05:38 PM
Jack Campin 29 Aug 12 - 06:00 PM
Betsy 29 Aug 12 - 06:44 PM
r.padgett 30 Aug 12 - 05:18 AM
Diva 30 Aug 12 - 05:29 AM
Betsy 30 Aug 12 - 06:49 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 30 Aug 12 - 06:57 AM
Banjo-Flower 30 Aug 12 - 08:38 AM
Betsy 30 Aug 12 - 08:54 AM
Joe Nicholson 30 Aug 12 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,Richie 30 Aug 12 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 30 Aug 12 - 12:16 PM
Jack Campin 30 Aug 12 - 12:18 PM
r.padgett 30 Aug 12 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,Diva 30 Aug 12 - 01:50 PM
Steve Gardham 30 Aug 12 - 02:41 PM
Lynn W 30 Aug 12 - 04:51 PM
Joe Nicholson 30 Aug 12 - 08:02 PM
r.padgett 31 Aug 12 - 02:46 AM
Joe Nicholson 31 Aug 12 - 05:11 AM
Jack Campin 31 Aug 12 - 10:11 AM
Raggytash 31 Aug 12 - 12:20 PM
Jack Campin 31 Aug 12 - 12:31 PM
Les from Hull 31 Aug 12 - 02:10 PM
Steve Gardham 31 Aug 12 - 03:21 PM
Steve Gardham 31 Aug 12 - 03:22 PM
selby 31 Aug 12 - 03:25 PM
Steve Gardham 31 Aug 12 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,GUEST, Ray Smith 01 Sep 12 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,The Station Inn, Whitby 01 Sep 12 - 01:29 PM
12barblues 01 Sep 12 - 05:10 PM
bfdk 01 Sep 12 - 05:20 PM
Steve Gardham 02 Sep 12 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,Ray Smith 02 Sep 12 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,raymond greenoaken 02 Sep 12 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler 02 Sep 12 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,THE DOYLE FAMILY 02 Sep 12 - 06:16 PM
Stilly River Sage 02 Sep 12 - 06:51 PM
selby 02 Sep 12 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,The Doyle Family 02 Sep 12 - 07:39 PM
GUEST,The Doyle Family 03 Sep 12 - 04:31 AM
BobKnight 03 Sep 12 - 06:09 AM
Northerner 03 Sep 12 - 06:20 AM
Betsy 03 Sep 12 - 06:46 AM
3sdancer 03 Sep 12 - 07:00 AM
Rozza 03 Sep 12 - 07:23 AM
r.padgett 03 Sep 12 - 08:25 AM
Betsy 03 Sep 12 - 08:35 AM
GUEST 03 Sep 12 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,R. Whittle 03 Sep 12 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,folkiedave 03 Sep 12 - 10:46 AM
Matthew Edwards 03 Sep 12 - 10:58 AM
GUEST 03 Sep 12 - 11:15 AM
John MacKenzie 03 Sep 12 - 11:20 AM
nutty 03 Sep 12 - 11:21 AM
Liberty Boy 03 Sep 12 - 11:24 AM
GUEST 03 Sep 12 - 11:29 AM
Stilly River Sage 03 Sep 12 - 12:19 PM
johncharles 03 Sep 12 - 12:42 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Sep 12 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,wyrdolafr 03 Sep 12 - 02:40 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Sep 12 - 03:42 PM
GUEST 03 Sep 12 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,the Doyle Family 03 Sep 12 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,Simon Doyle and Family 03 Sep 12 - 05:29 PM
GUEST 03 Sep 12 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Simon Doyle and Family 03 Sep 12 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,Simon Doyle and family 03 Sep 12 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,Simon Doyle and family 03 Sep 12 - 06:26 PM
Banjo-Flower 03 Sep 12 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,Simon Doyle and family 03 Sep 12 - 06:53 PM
GUEST,Simon Doyle and family 03 Sep 12 - 07:09 PM
Northerner 03 Sep 12 - 07:21 PM
Northerner 04 Sep 12 - 02:08 AM
GUEST,Simon Doyle and family 04 Sep 12 - 03:07 AM
GUEST,Alf & Mrs Alf 04 Sep 12 - 03:42 AM
The Sandman 04 Sep 12 - 04:36 AM
banjoman 04 Sep 12 - 05:32 AM
The Sandman 04 Sep 12 - 06:16 AM
Lynn W 04 Sep 12 - 06:19 AM
GUEST 04 Sep 12 - 06:44 AM
GUEST 04 Sep 12 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,chris 04 Sep 12 - 09:21 AM
Jack Campin 04 Sep 12 - 09:23 AM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,Simon Doyle and family 04 Sep 12 - 11:08 AM
The Sandman 04 Sep 12 - 11:31 AM
Paul Davenport 04 Sep 12 - 12:20 PM
The Sandman 04 Sep 12 - 12:52 PM
johncharles 04 Sep 12 - 01:23 PM
GUEST 04 Sep 12 - 02:40 PM
GUEST 04 Sep 12 - 02:57 PM
Steve Gardham 04 Sep 12 - 03:13 PM
Steve Gardham 04 Sep 12 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler 05 Sep 12 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,CCS 06 Sep 12 - 04:54 AM
dick greenhaus 06 Sep 12 - 09:01 PM
The Sandman 07 Sep 12 - 03:31 AM
The Sandman 07 Sep 12 - 03:34 AM
Jack Campin 07 Sep 12 - 05:34 AM
The Sandman 07 Sep 12 - 08:34 AM
GUEST 07 Sep 12 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,Simon Doyle & Family 07 Sep 12 - 08:42 AM
Northerner 07 Sep 12 - 12:18 PM
Northerner 07 Sep 12 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,sturgeon 07 Sep 12 - 12:49 PM
The Sandman 07 Sep 12 - 12:57 PM
Northerner 07 Sep 12 - 03:23 PM
The Sandman 07 Sep 12 - 03:48 PM
Northerner 07 Sep 12 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,wyrdolafr 07 Sep 12 - 04:23 PM
John MacKenzie 07 Sep 12 - 04:26 PM
The Sandman 07 Sep 12 - 04:47 PM
selby 07 Sep 12 - 04:52 PM
John MacKenzie 07 Sep 12 - 05:29 PM
selby 07 Sep 12 - 06:19 PM
Stilly River Sage 07 Sep 12 - 08:33 PM
The Sandman 08 Sep 12 - 01:27 AM
Steve Gardham 08 Sep 12 - 12:57 PM
The Sandman 08 Sep 12 - 02:08 PM
Betsy 08 Sep 12 - 07:48 PM
Joe Offer 09 Sep 12 - 03:17 AM
The Sandman 09 Sep 12 - 06:46 AM
Jack's Rake 09 Sep 12 - 07:57 AM
The Sandman 09 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM
Dennis the Elder 09 Sep 12 - 10:17 AM
Jeri 09 Sep 12 - 10:25 AM
Mick Tems 09 Sep 12 - 10:34 AM
Jack's Rake 09 Sep 12 - 12:05 PM
selby 09 Sep 12 - 12:25 PM
The Sandman 09 Sep 12 - 01:06 PM
Spectacled Warbler 09 Sep 12 - 03:46 PM
dick greenhaus 09 Sep 12 - 04:13 PM
The Sandman 09 Sep 12 - 04:31 PM
The Sandman 09 Sep 12 - 04:41 PM
The Sandman 09 Sep 12 - 04:44 PM
Acorn4 09 Sep 12 - 05:10 PM
Surreysinger 09 Sep 12 - 07:41 PM
Betsy 09 Sep 12 - 08:23 PM
GUEST,old git 10 Sep 12 - 06:40 AM
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Subject: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 09:03 AM

Back from a great week at Whitby...songs,beer and friends old and new...priceless! Thanks to everybody who gave "Icebound" such a great reception and sorry to all those who couldn't get in!
I also enjoyed the rest of the week ,whether performing, MCing , running singarounds or just joining in impromptu sessions. Where did the week go? Here's to next year!
Oh..and congrats to Jim and Graeme's maritime sessions for raising such a large amount for the Whitby Lifeboat. £3113!!!
geoff t


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 09:17 AM

Totally agree, it was a brilliant week, aided and abetted by good weather too! Miss your sets unfortunately but bought one of your CDs in compensation.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 10:22 AM

My first Whitby, hopefully they'll want me back next year. I only saw the acts I was working with, but honestly never saw anything bad all week, and met some really lovely people too. :)


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: BobKnight
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 10:42 AM

Sorry - that was me - message number three.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 11:18 AM

Yes I thoroughly enjoyed Icebound as I did the rest of Whitby everything went so well and it was all over too soon

Joe Nicholson


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 12:35 PM

There were some very good events. My favourite was Bob Pegg's presentation on "The Last Wolf" with its blend of storytelling, poetry, song and music.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 01:22 PM

Nice to meet you at last Old Git, and Bob Knight...... You were great!


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Michael
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 02:24 PM

Thanks to everyone who made Whitby 2012 so special for the Cryan family. All those hugs really help!
Mike


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Diva
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 02:57 PM

Whitby was just great. Lots of old pals to meet up with. Loads of ballads. We were not quite as riotous as in previous years but maybe we are getting sensible? The Hoolie was superb, loved Bagpuss and Elizabeth Stewart is a marvel. There was loads I missed but it was still great. Still trying to work out how to contact the guy I met on train to Whitby on Monday when I was travelling down. I think I sent him off to the Glaisdale train telling him there would be music on Monday night - whoops. What was worse was he said he'd see me there....


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 06:41 PM

...maybe next year (hopefully)


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Liberty Boy
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 02:17 AM

Was the guy on the train not my buddy Tom Crean?


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: BobKnight
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 04:47 AM

John MacKenzie: Thanks a lot John - glad you enjoyed it.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Diva
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 09:00 AM

Ahhh Jerry, he was a wee bit cuter than Tom......but only just!


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Red and White Rabbit
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 09:33 AM

Had great time too. Sorry I missed Icebound this time round. Sure the 40's brought the house down though.
Echo the sentiments of meeting up with friends old and new and looking forward to 2013.
Thanks to the folk club out at Stainsacre for putting up with and feeding us all on Friday night too


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Wombat
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 11:47 AM

Which is the folk club at Stainsacre please, never heard of it! Thanks


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 12:38 PM

Hi -it was a great Whitby and nice to see Bob Knight on this thread because it was great to hear him for the first time. we shared a gig at the Con club when we stepped in at the Folk Club and although it was a small audience it was a really great night. Loved your singing Bob. Very busy Hissyfit week but well worth it . Roll on next year!


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: banjoman
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 05:20 AM

Thoroughly enjoyed the week as we had gone to Whitby to celebrate our Ruby Wedding anniversary. First there on honeymoon in 1972. Amazing that there are still some of the same faces about.
Thanks to all and especially the kind folk who helped me with my mobility scooter up the hill to the Elsinore.
Great to see that Southport Swords are still going strong - but no wallpaper rolls in evidence?
Thanks again for a great week


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: BobKnight
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 06:18 AM

Hi Linda, and thanks for your kind words about my singing. Especially welcome from two great singers like yourself and Hazel aka Hissyfit. :)


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Bri
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 06:24 AM

Another very enjoyable Whitby, Ken & Peta's traditional nights at the football club and the late night concerts at the Met were my highlights. Great to meet up with some old mates.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 08:21 AM

It was great to see and hear Siobhan Miller at Whitby. A lass I have long admired as a singer. Long may she continue to grace the place.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 11:54 AM

Here's my highlight, young Cuthbert Noble performing solo unaccompanied at the Yorkshire concert on Thursday.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Fyldeplayer
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 12:22 PM

Congrats to all involved in producing a great Whitby. We were fortunate to have a cottage in RHB so close to the Dolphin I could see performers from our kitchen!, and enjoyed the two sessions we attended there.

Good concerts at Rugby club especially fri, good to see Steve Turner and final offering from Ryan, Doyle and Downes just superb - Paul Downes is a tasteful guitarist one of the best and coupled with Mick Ryans songs/singing - just outstanding.

Best for me though (just) - Martyn Wyndan Reed and Iris Bishop - pure class.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Willa
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 02:39 PM

I agree with you, John; hadn't heard Siobhan before but loved her performances - heard her three times!


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Les
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 05:16 PM

Yes MWR & IB were great as was Steve Turner, but highlight for me was the Wilsons, Whitby would not be the same without them.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 05:40 PM

I enjoyed Bob Knight the lovely Siobhan Steve Turner Wilsons Craig Morgan Robson and the wonderful ~Grace Notes.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 05:46 PM

There were far, far too many highlights so that to single out any one seems totally unfair, and besides for every event I attended there were another ten or so I had to miss.

I loved the Traditional Nights Out at the Football Club most of all; Ken Hall just appears so happy to be surrounded by so many great performers - he looked like a schoolboy who has found the key to the tuck shop! Sid Calderbank who stewards at the Football Club is one of my heroes - he said that he was getting worried that after all these years people are beginning to understand him - so he sang 'Warrikin Fair' in a 16th century Lancashire dialect!

It was lovely to meet Racker Donnelly whose linguistic convolutions had me howling with laughter; I suspect that some of the tortures he inflicts on the English language may actually be banned under the Geneva Convention.

The Traveller's concert was absolutely brilliant with the wonderful Doyle family, along with Thomas MacCarthy's gorgeous voice, Bob Knight's fine songs and Elizabeth Stewart bringing her amazing store of ballads on her first visit to Whitby. The Yorkshire singers were fantastic too - John Greaves could sing his song about the Tailor of Whitby a hundred times and I would still find it fresh each time!

The lunchtime ballads sessions at the Conservative Club were a daily treat, and the quality of the singers among the audience was almost without exception as good as that of the artists themselves.

There were some excellent talks and presentations by Peter Shepheard and Arthur Watson, Steve Gardham, Martin Graebe, Grace Toland and the inimitable Doc Rowe at the Coliseum - all of which were very passionate, stimulating, and engaging.

On a personal note I thoroughly enjoyed participating in the John Birmingham Cup competition for songwriting where I was very impressed by the quality of craftsmanship all round, and I'd like to congratulate Ruairidh Greig for his winning song drawing on his knowledge and love of Grimsby. As Paul Davenport has said elsewhere this competition has the potential to stimulate - so I hope there'll be lots more entries next year!

I learned a lot about dry stone walling from the Noble family! Great to see Scott Gardiner and Siobhan Miller making an impact too, and lovely to see the Davenports in various combinations, while those Hissyfits are lovelier than ever.

Somebody told me that Sisters Unlimited had reformed but I don't believe it! They are totally unreformed characters, and better now than they were nearly a quarter of a century ago.

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 06:45 PM

Excellent summary, Matthew. Arriving late, I obviously missed a lot of great stuff and I'm now envious. Yes Ruairidh's song was great. I'm really glad Ray Padgett asked him to sing it at the Yorkshire concert.
It might well find its way onto our CD of fishing songs for Hull Museums.

Well done to all of the organisers and the backroom boys and girls.

I heard a whisper that one of the old fringe events, dwyle flonking, might be making a return next year.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: mally
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 04:27 PM

Too old for dwyle flonking now.

   Mally


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 04:28 PM

Seems the scheduled events were mostly filled, though there weren't the queues of disappointed people I saw the two previous years. Numbers in fringe events were WAY down, and some accommodation wasn't let. I estimate that the Folk Week only drew half the number of visitors to the town that it did last year, and on average they were quite a bit older. Not good. Folk Week might count that as a success, but the businesses in the town that count on it will have seen it as a flop.

This requires a response. I've said this before and I'll say it agin: if you expect to draw new people in to the festival (and after this year's performance it's clear that Whitby has to) you MUST provide them with adequate advance information. There were people I wanted to recommend the festival to this year, but I couldn't: last year's programme was not available for download so I couldn't point them to it and say "this year's will be much the same". (I had a paper copy of the programme but didn't know where I'd put it until it was too late). People will NOT go a week-long festival that requires booking accommodation months in advance on sheer blind faith. I know I'd have gone to Whitby ten years before I actually did for the first time if I'd had access to a past programme.

The really successful festivals give full descriptions of all their events in advance. The Edinburgh Fringe is the most successful of all, and they've always provided paper copies of the full programme free. It's nuts to pinch pennies by insisting that every piece of programme information must be paid for - the important revenue comes from selling tickets. And the more people know about the festival, the more tickets will be sold.

Some terrific stuff though. (I would go some way to avoid seeing the Doyle Family again, but they were the only real duds). And I've booked accommodation for next year.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 05:38 PM

Hi Jack,

It would be far nicer if you told us what all the terrific stuff was that you liked than to single out the one you didn't like. You're quite entitled to express an opinion, but to call the Doyle Family "duds" is totally out of order. They are the real thing - you might not like their music - but they are genuine musicians from a long tradition of traveller players.

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 06:00 PM

I liked most of the same things other people here have mentioned (except I don't think anybody has mentioned Johnny Handle yet; one of the most versatile performers I've ever seen, brilliant at whatever he does and with a wonderfully warm and positive attitude).

It wasn't Simon Doyle's music I disliked so much as the posing and the patriarchal control-freakery.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Betsy
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 06:44 PM

I think another off-putting problem this year for people trying to book accomodation from (say) a Saturday to a Saturday (which would appear make most sense) was that the Regattta and the associated Quay Side celebrations were still being held on the same Monday that the Festival started. The Regatta dates can't change because of the Tide tables. I understand (whether correctly or not) that Whitby Fest can't change dates to suit, at the risk of overlapping with other Festivals, but having said THAT there's not an awful lot of Monday > Friday Festivals to overlap.
As a person who didn't have a ticket....a mate and I who work during the week took a trip to Whitby on the Thursday looking to play some tunes.
At 2pm-ish we went in FILO - no one in, Elsinore which was mostly melodians and not really our cup of tea which is fair enough!, Middle Earth where there was a singaround which seemed to be well-organised ,but so well-attended that it would have taken a long time to get a spot.(I was driving around the venues by the way).We arrived at the Fleece where we started playing tunes and occasional song in the middle room getting the craic going. We and others who tried to sing eventually drowned-out from the front room who ere singing assorted Rugby songs,Delilah etc. The Middle room quickly became Country and Western oriented and song content a bit morose for us. Offski !!
We ended up at the Station,(in the room on the right),where there was a gathering of youngsters who as far as we could understand were from the Cotswolds (Morris Team?).They took their time to have a good look at us two oldies - I think they were wondering if we were going introduce some unrequited music. Anyway we must have done something right,and we proceeded to have a great session with them. They and several friends were most polite , and exceptional fiddlers both lads and lasses , a concertina player and the occasional song. We were later joined by a foursome of players two of which were clog dancers and being a wooden floor they proceeded to give it "rock all". As a couple of hours or more had now elapsed, and getting-on for 7.00 pm, the call of Cod and Chips tea bread and butter was irresistible.
All this time I understand we should have been in the Black Horse where there was a good craic but couldn't get parked.
Anyway to paraphrase, " Didn't we have a lovely time - the time we went.........


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 05:18 AM

Hi Betsy
1 Regatta no clash until 2016 should help folky people get   
accommodation now

2 Morris teams can be salt of the earth or a total pain

3 Whitby ff have rarely advertised events, may need a little rethink (adverts cost money)

4 Venues for official events ~ a lot out of town e.g Rifle club, Con Club, Whitby Football club, Whitby Rugby club

5 Pubs in centre charging "a lot" for a pint £3.15 for a pint is a lot.

6 Usual gripe cost of 1pint of Cola £3 is a a rip off! Time after time I mention this and I think its time for a petition to regulate the cost of ALL SOFT drinks ~ I am not angry I am b****y furious and of course would always stand up for the right for free water in pubs, particularly when pints of beer have been consumed already.

NIce to see you Betsy

Ray


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Diva
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 05:29 AM

Many highlights of the week and I'll second what Matthew said! Sid is a gem. Loved the Doyle family, lovely, talented and genuine folk.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Betsy
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 06:49 AM

The opinion of Jack Crampin, as opposed to Diva's and Matthews view of a particular Performer(s) above , is a great example of our the rich tapestry of divisions in Folk music, and, well done all, for expressing yourselves in a civilised and dedicated manner.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 06:57 AM

Re charging for water, I'll admit that £1 is a lot for a glass of water but consider that the licensee has to pay for rent, rates, electricity, gas, the glass, the staff, the washing up, and the bloody water itself (business premises tend to be metered) I suppose a charge has to be levied. That is not even taking into account various other factors in a busy pub like the space the person drinking water is taking up and a profit that a pub has to make to pay the licensee a wage.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 08:38 AM

I thought it was illegal under the licensing laws to charge for tap water

"quote"



Alcohol licensing conditions

If your premises sells or supplies alcohol, you must now hold an age verification policy and ensure you offer smaller serving measures to your customers.

In April this year we announced the first three conditions of the Licensing Act 2003 (mandatory licensing conditions) order 2010. They apply to all licensed premises and those with a club premises certificate in England and Wales. They were:

    a ban on irresponsible promotions
    a ban on dispensing alcohol directly into customers' mouths
    mandatory provision of free tap water

Gerry


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Betsy
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 08:54 AM

Nice one Gerry.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:26 AM

How the world is changing is this the Ray Padget I used to know complaining about the price of Coke and Water


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 11:47 AM

Betsy, I cant believe you and Lenny did'nt try the ship, it's wall to wall Irish music virtually all day


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 12:16 PM

The regulations should be fairly easy to circumvent, for example :-

"I personally cannot guarantee the quality of the water supplied to my premises and taking due precaution for your health and safety Sir/Madam I will boil the kettle to ensure the water is drinkable. If you would like to take a seat whilst the boiled water reduces to drinking temperature..........."

Although I am a personal license holder I have not had the need to keep up to current regulation but I can detect bullshit at several paces.

It is interesting to note however that the Dept of Health which introduced this notion back in April 2010 was opposed by both the Dept for Culture, Media and Sport and the Dept for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

A regular can of worms.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 12:18 PM

One more plug - Peta Webb's presentation on the music relating to the Titanic. If you get a chance to hear that somewhere else, go!


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 01:16 PM

No can of worms it is the Law Raggy that water be provided FREE, no £1 or 50p and cannot be circumvented

Appications can be made to oppose on H & S grounds the continued license

Pubs make more than enough profit! for their Landords

Joe ~ I have many times complained about costs of Soft drinks and provision of water and may have had some bearing on this being adopted by Statutory Instrument into the licensing laws in UK

I pointed out that Scottish Club law specifically included the point re Water being FREE, quite rightly!!

Ray


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Diva
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 01:50 PM

Peta's presentation on the songs of the Titanic was superb


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 02:41 PM

You had to be in the Ship early. Every time I went in both front and back sessions were packed like sardines. Luckily there was a craic in between.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Lynn W
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:51 PM

"a craic in between"... groan.. gave me a smile anyway! Both my favourite session pubs, the Ship and the Board, were so crammed full that you had to be in early doors to get a seat, so the fringe numbers were definitely not "way down" there, don't know about elsewhere.
I have seen the Doyle family several times including informal sessions and think they're great.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 08:02 PM

Ray it just came to me that coke and water were not within your sphere of interest.

Regards Joe


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 02:46 AM

Hi Joe, well maybe in the bad old days with Booker, but I drink mainly diet coke nowadays, I am getting old (have been for a bit) and poor old John Booker on still orange at £1 saved a fortune at Whitby

Old age infirmity etc, but I never was big drinker! (too little lol)
Ray


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 05:11 AM

So it's down to me to keep the poor old landlords solvent then. Going of to do my bit at nt Fleetwood now.

Joe


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 10:11 AM

Something I would like to see at Whitby: two years I've been there there has been a sizable old sailing boat moored at the quay which you can visit.

I've never seen a sailor's hornpipe performed on a ship.

Is there anybody around who could do it?


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 12:20 PM

That would be the Reaper, a Fifie herring drifter build about 1900 owned by the Scottish Fisheries Museum (I think)


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 12:31 PM

It was the Reaper this year, last year was a great big sailing barge.

Maybe neither of them is quite the historically appropriate kind of boat to do hornpipes on, but either would do until the Cutty Sark or the Victory pays a visit.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Les from Hull
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 02:10 PM

You'ld be better off wishing for a ship that can float. Both the ones you mentioned will never leave drydock.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 03:21 PM

Wot you on about, Les?
The Reaper sailed back up to its own port on Friday night and Spider T (2011)Humber sloop, was in the Thames Pageant with us, though sometimes we wish Mal had left it in dry dock. Both were moored outside the Ship.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 03:22 PM

Ah, you means the latter 2!


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: selby
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 03:25 PM

Steve hope you are well missed you and Gilly at Whitby.
You just had to get in that you was in the Thames Pageant didn't you :-))))))
Keith


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 03:56 PM

Keith I like this new style posting leave all the punctuation to the end of the message and then change it to some mysterious coding!"(*(()

We're both fine thanks and enjoyed the festival with the usual 20 family members including Rich and Oli. Rich married now. How're your tribe? Haven't seen Joe for a while. Are any of you coming to Folksail at the museum this weekend? That famous craft, Wheldale, that sailed in the Jubilee Pageant will be there!! He he!


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,GUEST, Ray Smith
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 08:03 AM

The Welsh dance team, Dawnswyr Aberesc, were an exciting delight, especially the eight-year-old girl clog dancer! Please come back again soon!

Also, it was so good to see one of Aberesc's musicians, Mick Tems, who had suffered a severe stroke, back at Whitby and drumming up his Welsh tabwrdd. He told that he's editing an internet magazine, Folkwales Online Magazine - good luck to him and the dancers!

Ray


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,The Station Inn, Whitby
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 01:29 PM

Thank you to all for a great week. It is always fun to serve on Folk Week as it is so different to the rest of the year, and always lively and buzzing. Looking forward to next year, thanks again.

Col x


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: 12barblues
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 05:10 PM

This was my first time at Whitby and I thought it was wonderful. The only problem was working out how to be in two or three places at the same time. Highlights from my perspective were two Alistair Anderson workshops that were masterclasses in the use of dynamics, Steve Turner's song accompaniment workshop and Windy Gyle's Northumbrian session at the Rowing Club. Concert highlights were too many to mention individually.

However, a special mention should go to Steve Gardham of this parish who hosted a very poorly attended squeezebox session. Those of us who turned up were, to say the very least, inexperienced at playing in public. Tunes that can be played perfectly well at home became a jumbled incompetent mess. Throughout it all, Steve was patient and endlessly encouraging, although it must have been a complete waste of time for him. Thank you, Steve.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: bfdk
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 05:20 PM

Some videos from this year's Whitby Folk Week have gone up here, mainly from the ceilidhs and morris, and including one of the Welsh dance team that Ray was praising. More will go up as I work my way through them.

Best wishes,

Bente


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:04 AM

12-bar, thank you for those kind words. But no, it is never a waste of time. You do your best and if only one other person benefits in any way then it is worthwhile.

In previous years these have been very well attended and I won't stop doing them. Publicity for such events was hampered this year for various reasons beyond my control. I put it down to 1) I haven't been able to run one for a few years so they've gone off the radar and 2) perhaps all the squeezebox players who would normally come were involved in their own events 3) It was over lunch-time. I had to get from one workshop at the Coliseum finishing at 12.50 and then after the Squeezaround had to dash off to a concert at the Rifle Club. Eating and travelling time are not allowed for when putting the programme together.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Ray Smith
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 10:31 AM

That's it, Bente - thank you for filming all the teams, especially Aberesc. Mick can seen on the end, playing the tabwrdd and sitting astride his mobility scooter!


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 02:38 PM

Too late perhaps to contribute to the brief discussion about the Reaper, but for what it's worth my friends Richard, Kate and I had the pleasure of playing on deck on the Thursday afternoon of the Festival. It's the closest I've come to playing at sea, though it didn't drift any further than six feet from the quayside. And yes, we played a couple of hornpipes.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 05:19 PM

Re Thursday after noon in The Elsie Snores. Some of us from Melnet were having or Annual(well second)Northern gathering and this was where we'd agreed to meet as we have for all the previous (one) years. Hence the melodeon overload - we did end up with a large number of honorary melodeons however, including Nick Barber's French Horn.
Goathland Plough Stots were their own inimitable selves. Next year in Jerusalem?


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,THE DOYLE FAMILY
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:16 PM

Hello everyone who went to Whitby 2012 we were very happy and proud to be asked back for a second year and to meet old friends and also to make new ones. This is the first time since last year for me to visit this mudcat website and to be honest i am DISCUSTED in the comments from jack campin HOW DARE YOU SPEAK ABOUT ME AND MY FAMILY THE WAY YOU HAVE IN YOUR FIRST COMMENT SAYING ''you would go some way to avoid seeing THE DOYLE FAMILY again'' IF YOU DIDNT LIKE THE ACT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE COME TO SEE US OR IF YOU CAME TO SEE THE OTHER ACTS THAT WERE PERFORMING YOU COULD HAVE EASILY WENT OUTSIDE UNTILL WE WERE FINISHED?

BUT THEN TO COME OUT WITH YOUR NEXT COMMENT SAYING ''BUT THEY WERE THE ONLY REAL DUDS''

WHAT GIVES YOU!!!!!!!!!!!THE GALL TO SAY OR TO QUESTION ANYTHING ABOUT THE ROOTS OF WHICH ME AND MY FAMILY HAVE DECENDED FROM YOU IGNORANT FOOL? YOU HAVENT GOT A CLUE IGNORANT FOOL?

WHY DIDNT YOU COME AND SAY THAT TO MY FACE AFTER THE PERFORMANCE OR WERE YOU JUST WANTING TO SAVE IT ALL FOR MUDCAT ''THINKING TO YOURSELF O WELL THE TRAVELLERS WON'T SEE THEESE COMMENTS'' AND YES I AM A TRAVELLER FAMILY MAN THROUGH AND THROUGH AND VERY PROUD TO BE, AND CAN'T WAIT TO SHOW YOUR COMMENTS TO MY FAMILY IN IRELAND, ENGLAND,SCOTLAND,WALES, EUROPE AND U.S. YOU SMALL MINDED PERSON.

AND YOUR NEXT COMMENT ABOUT ME SUPPOSE TO BE ''POSING & PATRIARCHAL''

THATS JUST YOUR WAY OF COVERING YOUR TRUE HIDDEN AGENDER THAT YOU REALLEY ARE A ''RACIST AGAINST TRAVELLERS'' GET OVER IT TRAVELLERS WERE AROUND FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS & WILL BE AROUND FOR A LOT LONGER ASWELL.

OOPS THIS IS A TRAVERLLER THAT CAN READ AND WRIGHT WHICH ''JACK CAMPIN'' MIGHT NOT BELIEVE OR HE MIGHT SAY I'M A ''DUD'' AGAIN BUT LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING FOR NOTHING THE VAST MAJORITY OF TRAVELLERS ARE SOME OF THE BEST SCHOLARS GOING

YOU SMALL MINDED LITTLE MIDLOTHIAN PERSON ( and before anyone texts me back about poor little jack campin having a right to his opinion NO HE DOESN'T NOT WHEN IT IS ABOUT MY HERITAGE & CULTURE. and quite frankly i don't give a dam as to how SMALL MINDED jack campin feels EXACTLY THE WAY HE DIDN'T CARE ABOUT ME OR MY FAMILYS FEELINGS WHEN HE MADE THEM COMMENTS )

AND YES JACK BY ALL MEANS PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU DO INTRODUCE YOURSELF THE NEXT TIME YOU ENTER MY COMPANY!

P.S I would like to say thank you to the very nice people who stood up for me and my family tradition against those NASTY comments and also A BIG THANK YOU FROM THE DOYLE FAMILY TO EVERYONE WHO MADE WHITBY 2012 REALLEY SPECIAL FOR US AND GAVE US A VERY WARM WELCOME.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:51 PM

Mr. Doyle, a review and a criticism was posted in this thread at Mudcat.org, a group founded on the appreciation of folk and blues music. The remark was brief and negative, others disagreed with him, and it would have rested there. You came in as a guest and responded with a rant that is loud and ugly. Do you want to leave it here where anyone searching on your group's name will find it? It's a very unattractive response to one negative (but brief) review.

Just say so and it can be removed.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: selby
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:58 PM

Greetings to the Doyle family regular readers/contributors of mudcat will enjoy your honesty in your posting. As an artist/performer what you get here is peoples opinions hidden sometimes behind an alias. The main thing to remember it is a discussion forum and people do give their opinions. For what it is worth I never saw you but I did see two young lads who I commented on, on another post I will slightly add to thread I saw two young lads playing pipes who I believe in the future, when their hands grow will be awesome, they was also polite pleasant and knowledgable. That is my opinion the same as Jack has expressed his. I feel it is important to point out I saw 2 young lads playing pipesI did not see travellers just young competent musicians with a lot of potential.
Keith


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,The Doyle Family
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 07:39 PM

Hello Keith thank you for your comments i do totally understand what you are saying about people having ther opinions, but when it becomes personal there is a big diffrence as to start calling me and my family 'duds' its just not on and totally uncalled for. And i think if it was anyone else who had performed at whitby or anywhere else and had very personal comments posted about them i think they would be also fuming and they would also be posting a reply. critism is fine but very deep and hurtfull comments are not.
simon


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,The Doyle Family
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:31 AM

SRS

You say a criticism and review were made about me and my family. It wasn't it was a nasty and sadistic comment.

And yes i understand and appreciate mudcat is for the passing on of comments, opinions,plus views about folk and blues music and song.

Then you say the remark was brief and negative? it might be brief in the written word but will last in the thought of mind for a long time, this person knows exactly what they have done. So it was more than a negative responce it was a comment of hate and it wouldn't have rested there.

And then you say i came on with a rant that was loud and ugly? i will say briefly that i have a right to defend myself and my family against mallicious comments.

And on what you said about people inquiring for The Doyle Family, his comment is the first anyone can see when they search for ''The Doyle Family at Whitby folk week 2012'' ? so where is your reply to jack campin! if that is his real name.

My responce to jack campin is in no way unatractive i am only being truthfull and straight forward and if people like yourself can not understand this thats your porogative.

I don't understnd why you didnt ask campin if he would remove his comment?

Simon


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: BobKnight
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:09 AM

In defence of the Doyle family, I met Simon and his family for the first time at Whitby 2012. I was impressed, not only by the sheer talent of Simon and his girls who accompanied him on stage, but by the quiet and mannerly way they went about their business. Over the course of the week, I met them time and time again, not only those who performed, but the rest of the family too. They were unfailingly polite and friendly to myself and Elizabeth Stewart on every occasion. Lovely people, and I look forward to meeting Simon and family again one of these days.

As for being "duds" sorry Jack, but you must have got out of bed on the wrong side that day. The two boys playing the pipes, as already mentioned by "Selby" were great, and to my surpise Winnie-Marie, who plays banjo onstage, showed her versatility by taking a turn on the pipes too. As for your remark about "Posing and patriachal control-freakery," I saw neither posing nor control-freakery. Traveller families are naturally close, and if modest, well mannered, and slightly shy of strangers children, are seen as control-freakery, then there is something wrong with the way we see the world these days.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:20 AM

I was mentored by the late Stanley Robertson and do try to see performances at Whitby by other Travellers. I wasn't able to see Simon and his family this year but have seen them previously. I thoroughly enjoyed their performance.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Betsy
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:46 AM

I think we need to be all very careful about WRITTEN criticism. It's not the same as an off-the-cuff remark to a friend that you didn't think much of such and such. Not every performance appeals to everyone and we all know that e.g. I might have liked a performance which my friend didn't like at all.
WRITTEN criticism can be heart-breaking as I hope a song which was beatifully performed by Gary and Vera Aspey , Iain McGillivray and others illustrates below.
To the Doyle Family I'd say , try to find ways to absorb this "knock" by thinking about positive and humourous situations in order to laugh it off. I always remember my old man saying, on hearing "She loves you" ,that the Beatles were rubbish and wouldn't last 5 minutes !!!.
Laugh it off, brush it off, be bigger than it-or it will linger like a bad smell.
Apart from THAT I wish your Family all the very best , and pardon the pun, it's time to move on ....

             THE CRITIC

                1.
HE COULDN'T SING, HE COULDN'T CLOWN,
NO, - HIS ART IT WAS IN PUTTING PEOPLE DOWN,
HE COULDN'T PLAY, BUT HE COULD WRITE,
AND WITH HIS PEN HE WENT AND BROKE A HEART LAST NIGHT.

                2.
HE SITS ALONE, WITH BLINKERED VIEW,
DOESN'T KNOW THE HOURS OF PRACTISE PEOPLE DO,
TO PLAY THE SONGS, - TO GET 'EM RIGHT,
HE SIMPLY TOOK HIS PEN AND BROKE A HEART LAST NIGHT.

CHORUS / REFRAIN                                                                              
                                       
WELL IT'S A MYSTERY TO ME., - HOW THE CRITIC" FORMED" YOUR MEMORY,
NOW ARE YOU TELLING ME, YOUR EYES AND EARS DECIEVED YOU!!

                3.
HE NEVER HEARD THE CROWDS' APPLAUSE,
AND AS THEY MADE THEIR EXIT THROUGH THE THEATRE DOORS,
HE NEVER SHARED THEIR WILD DELIGHT,
INSTEAD, HE TOOK A PEN AND BROKE A HEART LAST NIGHT.

                4.
TO READ HIS WORDS - THEY MADE NO SENSE,
THEY NEVER MATCHED OUR RECOLLECTION OF EVENTS,
ONLY FOOLS BELIEVE, WHAT BIGGER FOOLS WRITE!         
TAKE CARE THE CRITIC'S BREAKING HEARTS AGAIN TONIGHT.,   

(Almost repeat of the previous 2 lines :-)
ONLY FOOLS BELIEVE, WHAT BIGGER FOOLS WRITE!


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: 3sdancer
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 07:00 AM

Well said, Betsy


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Rozza
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 07:23 AM

Thanks for the kind words about my song in the John Birmingham Cup. It was a pleasure and a privilege to take part with such a fine group of people.

On the Doyle family - they were certainly one of my highlights. Great playing at a proper pace- and the prospect of the family contributing for many years to come is very welcome indeed. I look forward to seeing the two young uillean pipers join the others on stage before too long.

Also really enjoyed Steve Gardham's talk on the Origin of Folk Songs at the Coliseum.

Ruairidh Greig


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: r.padgett
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 08:25 AM

I missed the Doyles and performance and and practice and the art from are vital components

Now were the two lads sitting and playing the by the swing bridge, of the Doyles ~ they were brilliant together and dedicated and carriers of traditional music

We must not forget that folk song and folk music are an Art form, combining songs conveying feelings and sentiments with the conveying music as accompanimment (some times itself a true work of art)

Critics can accentuate the poor to the total detriment of the "jewels", indeed one man's poor is another man's brilliant

NO one wishing to sing should necessarily be prevented from doing so (although I am sure there are exceptions to this rule!)

Hope to catch the Doyles some time and no doubt another year will continue song/music development ~ good luck and music making to you all
Ray


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Betsy
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 08:35 AM

Just to clarify ,there is no relationship between the song Rozza sang in the John Birmingham Cup and the song posted in my preceeding post above.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 08:44 AM

Nasty, Sadistic, Racist ?? Not from what I read, uncalled for perhaps, thoughtless perchance however the response to the criticism was, to my mind, over the top. There was even a veiled threat of physical violence should the two parties ever meet, not the way to win friends and influence people in my experience.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,R. Whittle
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 10:36 AM

To say that the Doyle Family are not travellers is an insulting thing to say, and for the remark above of a threat of violence if they should ever meet?? Not from what I have read, and of course Thomas McCarthy and the Doyle Family are cousins from what i have read in the efdss magazine, a true and exciting performace from the two.
Ruby


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 10:46 AM

Sorry to see such a lovely family as the Doyles subject to such criticism. I count myself unfortunate to have missed them at Whitby this year.

And I rarely contribute to Mudcat these days. Takes a lot to get me to do so. Good luck to you Simon.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 10:58 AM

Hi Simon,

It was good to meet you and the family again at Whitby, and I know that you have many friends there who enjoyed your music. I know that you are a peaceful man, and I think you are fully justified in being angry at some of the hurtful criticism expressed here. It is also very unfair for others to complain at your reply and to lecture you on your manners or accuse you or threatening violence.

You and the family will, I hope, always be welcome at Whitby. I heard your boys playing by the bridge, and I think they have a great future as pipers, while Winnie-Marie, Bridget and Margaret have already shown on TV that they have got talent! If some people don't enjoy listening to you, then that is their loss and really that should be an end to it. I'm sorry that you should have had to endure those remarks, but it is only the opinion of one person. Many others of us deeply respect what you do and the traditions you carry with you.

I hope that one day you will meet your critics in musical friendship, and that they will understand better where you are coming from, but in the meantime keep on playing as you are. Good luck!

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:15 AM

Seems to me the Doyle response is quite clearly aggressive and threatening, whether justifiably so or not.

Hence entirely reinforcing the stereotype that people have of the travelling community.

I think he does his family and his community a great disservice by responding like that.

Mind you, it also seems that Jack Campin is an insensitive and ill-mannered twat.

So there we have it.

g


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:20 AM

If you look through Jack Campin's previous posts, you will find that he has a tendency to acidic, and often unnecessary comments.
While this doesn't excuse his OTT comment re the Doyle family, it does help to put his comments in context.
He was wrong to post the remark, and unneccessarily rude in the way he expressed his viewpoint.
It is equally wrong to accuse him of racism, and in no way does his comments express a racist viewpoint.
I feel that apologies are due all round.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: nutty
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:21 AM

When critisizing a family like the Doyles it easy to forget the amount of time it takes to reach such a high standard.

I applaud those children for the hours of dedicated practice and further applaud their father for, what must have been, his constant encouragement.

I missed the Doyles in concert this year but I really enjoyed what I saw in 2011.
I did see the two lads out busking and was pleased by the improvement in their performance - much more polished.

I know its been said before, but this is the future and hopefully seeing such talented young people will interest others in the genre as. from what I see, there are nowhere near enough youngsters around in folk clubs and at festivals.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Liberty Boy
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:24 AM

I first met Simon and family in Sidmouth in 2011. I think their playing is excellent and can see them being engaged at festivals all over in the foreseeable future. As someone who has been listening to uilleann piping for over 50 years and who played the pipes for 11 years, I can say that Simon's playing is truly representative of the great traveller piping tradition of the Dorans, Cash's et al. As we say over here "To hell with the begrudgers". I wish Simon and family all the very best for the future.
Jerry


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:29 AM

To The Doyle's great music and great session at the ship where you were there all day thursday playing for the crowds of people on your day of, and nice to see Tommy the landlord join you with the bodhran brilliant.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 12:19 PM

Mr. Doyle, I'm not in the UK so I haven't had the pleasure of hearing your family perform, though I did find some YouTube clips. I responded after your post because the sledgehammer-killing-a-fly effect of the all-caps rant looked like it was going to work against you. If you want to let it stand, no problem. If it needs toning-down, a moderator can help with that.

I don't have a dog in this fight, though I have participated in the thoughtful discussions about the Traveller communities over the years. Bleeding heart liberal that I am, I dislike a lot of the public policy that allows discrimination. One of our members, InOBU, has written a great deal and I learned a lot from his posts in addition to other reading on my own. We have Traveller communities in the US, though they are much less conspicuous than in the UK.

You will find that at Mudcat remarks like those made by Mr. Campion don't go unchallenged. I'm not familiar with him personally, so I didn't read more into his dismissal of some performances, though you can see that other mudcat members confronted him about his posts. They just didn't do it in all-caps.

If you would like to join the Mudcat.org group (it's free) then you would be able to use our personal message system and talk with our members both in the forums and privately thorough PMs.

[snip]


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: johncharles
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 12:42 PM

jack campin may well have been less than tactful in his comments. However, I fail to see anything sadistic or racist in his comments unless there is a very different interpretation of the word "dud" to the one I am used to.
john


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 02:28 PM

Matthew quite rightly took Jack to task immediately. I think 'posing' and 'patriarchal control-freakery' are very personal and this forum is about music. I think Simon's response is very understandable. Shame on you, Jack!


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 02:40 PM

I don't understand the grief that Jack Campin has got in this thread at all. This is the sum of what he's posted:

"(I would go some way to avoid seeing the Doyle Family again, but they were the only real duds)."

and then

"It wasn't Simon Doyle's music I disliked so much as the posing and the patriarchal control-freakery."

It's a bit harsh, but it's subjective and he's allowed an opinion in the same way everyone is free to ignore that same opinion. A pre-emptive strike with "NO HE DOESN'T NOT WHEN IT IS ABOUT MY HERITAGE & CULTURE" doesn't cut it when he's not mentioned even 'heritage' or 'culture' in his posts.

He even goes to qualify (or maybe back pedal/'ease up' slightly) the first comment by saying that he doesn't have too much of a beef with the music per se (which renders later comments about any slight on talent of the kids a bit redundant) and it all seems to be down to some kind of 'personality' issue which Jack Campin doesn't elaborate on

Now whilst it may be a bit tight/mean of him to critique kids harshly (and, again, he later qualifies the comment and takes the kids out of the picture) but how does what he wrote get to be interpreted like this:

"THE GALL TO SAY OR TO QUESTION ANYTHING ABOUT THE ROOTS OF WHICH ME AND MY FAMILY HAVE DECENDED FROM YOU IGNORANT FOOL? YOU HAVENT GOT A CLUE IGNORANT FOOL?"

I'm failing to see where Jack Campin did this.

"OR WERE YOU JUST WANTING TO SAVE IT ALL FOR MUDCAT ''THINKING TO YOURSELF O WELL THE TRAVELLERS WON'T SEE THEESE COMMENTS''"

I'm no mind-reader and have no way of what Jack Campin was thinking when he wrote his comments but this is quite an assumption/stretch.

"AND YES I AM A TRAVELLER FAMILY MAN THROUGH AND THROUGH AND VERY PROUD TO BE, AND CAN'T WAIT TO SHOW YOUR COMMENTS TO MY FAMILY IN IRELAND, ENGLAND,SCOTLAND,WALES, EUROPE AND U.S. YOU SMALL MINDED PERSON."

I can understand the 'family man' aspect, in fact it's the only part of it I do understand. Most parents are protective and proud of their kids, whether it's a gig or a school project. How the 'Traveller' bit is relevant, I've no idea. Jack Campin doesn't refer to the word or even history/culture of "Traveller" at all.

"THATS JUST YOUR WAY OF COVERING YOUR TRUE HIDDEN AGENDER THAT YOU REALLEY ARE A ''RACIST AGAINST TRAVELLERS'' GET OVER IT TRAVELLERS WERE AROUND FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS & WILL BE AROUND FOR A LOT LONGER ASWELL.

OOPS THIS IS A TRAVERLLER THAT CAN READ AND WRIGHT WHICH ''JACK CAMPIN'' MIGHT NOT BELIEVE OR HE MIGHT SAY I'M A ''DUD'' AGAIN BUT LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING FOR NOTHING THE VAST MAJORITY OF TRAVELLERS ARE SOME OF THE BEST SCHOLARS GOING"

What's this accusation of racism founded on? The word "Duds", "posing" or "patriarchal"? How do they get to be interpreted as 'racism'?

"THE WAY HE DIDN'T CARE ABOUT ME OR MY FAMILYS FEELINGS WHEN HE MADE THEM COMMENTS"

I don't play folk music, (although I listen to a lot of it), but I've been in plenty of bands, playing different kinds of music over the years. One thing I realised early on is that you need fairly thick skin as a performer because not everyone will like what you do, no matter how hard you try or, indeed, how good you (and others) think you are. From the YouTube clips I've seen of the Doyle Family I thought they were OK, but I'd never think of reining in my criticism of a performer just because they're dad might not like what I had to say. If this is specific to kids, where would you draw the line? 16-years-old? 18? 21? When they've left home? Got a job? Is it an I.Q thing? An E.Q. thing? Or is this a 'never express a negative opinion, ever' thing?

"AND YES JACK BY ALL MEANS PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU DO INTRODUCE YOURSELF THE NEXT TIME YOU ENTER MY COMPANY!"

I'm sure I'm not the first in this thread to read this as a threat of physical violence.

Seriously, much of this thread has been genuinely baffling as to the responses to Jack Campin's posts.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 03:42 PM

Obviously there is baggage that goes with the topic and the individuals participating in it. Their history is part of the interpretation of the words entered here.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:56 PM

To Wyrdolafr

we appreciate your time in copying my answers to campin and trying to point out everything i have typed down, but as you said yourself that you dont understand why campin has got the grief he has on this thread?
please just go over them last 12 to 14 words in that sentance.

And if you dont understand the grief campin has gone through! but there is no mention of what we have gone through over his comments, i could not care if campin likes me my family or the music we play that is his opinion,

but why go so far and say what he has said, i cant keep on explaing this over and over because there is a lot of inteligent people on this thread that does understand it,

and before you txt me back saying you are inteligent I am NOT the one who said you didnt understand? it was yourself who SAID THIS
Simon


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,the Doyle Family
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 05:04 PM

hi wyrdolafr

i forgot to put my name at the top

and one last thing the comment i made as a couple of you has pointed out as a threat of violence NO IT WAS NOT this is a comment meaning i would have rather him to say it to my face and if he has anything further to say for to say it to my face instead of behind my back the next time he sees me.

so please stop trying to twist what was said into something you would like me to say so you could say o yes thats the travellers for you typical sterio type.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle and Family
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 05:29 PM

Hello Jerry

Thank you for the comment about me and my family we realley apprieciate it you are a true friend.

p.s we enjoyed both whitby two years on the trot and also sidmouth last year it was great working with you.

all the best Simon and family


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 05:32 PM

For goodness sake both of you. Get over it and get back on topic. Normal people are here for a different reason and just are not interested in your bickering.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle and Family
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 05:57 PM

Hello Matthew

it is very nice two here from you again but i just wish it was under different circumstances.

I would like to say thank you for your kind words about me and my family on this thread especially when certain individuals where very derrogative in there comments about us.

I have enjoyed our meetings at the festivals and at informal sessions and look forward to meeting you soon again, me and the family have certainly enjoyed whitby especially when people who have been in the audience or at the sessions that have seen me and the family perform have come up to me afterwards to say how much they have enjoyed it, and also on the streets where people would stop me or the girls and boys or even my wife to say how much they enjoyed the music.

And it was also very kind of you to appalogise for someone elses comments but you have no need to do this as it wasn't you who said it.

Kind regards

Simon and family


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle and family
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:04 PM

Hello Steve Gardham

thank you steve for your kind words

best wishes

Simon Doyle and family


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle and family
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:26 PM

Hello nutty

A special thanks from the Doyle Family for the very kind words

all the best

Simon and family


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:29 PM

Unfortunately due to to circumstances beyond my control I had to miss Whitby this year and really missed the Elsinore sessions and The Rowing Club Sessions but with a bit of luck next year


             "I,LL BE BACK"

Look for the Flowery Banjo

Gerry


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle and family
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:53 PM

Hi Bob Knight

Great to here from youself, me and the family enjoyed yourself and Elizabeth Stewarts singing it was a real treat to listen to and i hope we can meet up together again we would love to do some work together with yourselves as i think theres a lot that we can do together.

Also thanks very much for the kind words

keep in touch

all the best

Simon and family


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle and family
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 07:09 PM

I would like to say a big thank you from The Doyle Family to the people who made the very nice comments on this thread about me and my family, i have replyed to a few and i just like to add of those i have missed out thank you.

All the best

Simon and family


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 07:21 PM

That's fine, Simon, thank you. Currently I am day tripping to the festival so I don't get to see every performer each year. HopefuLly I will see you perform again next year.

Diane Taylor


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:08 AM

Could a moderator look at Guest's post please and remove it? It reads like discrimination and should not be tolerated by Mudcatters.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle and family
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:07 AM

This is for the guest who has said that my chirldren who are out busking that it is child labour?

you also said that they look like they dont enjoy it = You cant keep smiling all of the time when you are trying to concentrate on the tunes you are playing especially when you are at a young age and in front of thousands of people aswell.

maybe you dint know this because you might not play an instrument.

And back to your child labour cliam = my chirldren are out trying to build up the confidence in performing for when they are older and if along the way they are lucky enough to make a bit of money this will go towards a full set of Uilleann pipes which from a reputle maker will cost in the regin of £7500 for each full set.

p.s why dont you check out the all ireland Fleadh there are hundreds of chirldren out busking in the streets so it is not unusual.

Simon


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Alf & Mrs Alf
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:42 AM

We had a great time @ Whitby. Saw lots of Morris heard lovely music & singing & met Spot again :-)


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 04:36 AM

I have never had the pleasure of metting Jack Campin in person, if i did I probably would not waste a pint of bitter over his head.
however on previous threads [one in particular] that concerned Roy Harris, I found his comments objectionable, so I am not surprised that he is still making remarks that are upsetting other people.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: banjoman
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 05:32 AM

We stopped to listen to the young lads playing near the bridge and were really impressed. Never gave a thought to where they were from or their families. They were just 2 young people who were obviously enjoying themselves and bringing a lot of pleasure to those passing by. Well done.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 06:16 AM

its amazing if you sing and you look unhappy you get criticised, if you sing and you look happy you get criticised.
what should be important is the music not whether someone is smiling, what mattere s is the quality of the music, its should be about content not form.
this music is not pop music, image is irrelevant, jack campin clearly cares about his own music and spends a lot of time playing practising reseraching,
in my opinion he should forget his prejudices and just judge on the standard of the music


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Lynn W
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 06:19 AM

Most of the anti- Doyle posts on this thread seem to come from people who haven't considered that the Doyles come from a tradition which places extremely high value on family ties, respect for elders, hospitality, politeness and music/entertainment (which is how many of them get their living). So posts criticising their parenting style or showmanship are going to carry overtones of prejudice whether intended or not. In informal sessions the girls seem to enjoy playing music with their dad, and if you've heard the tale about how the unusual fiddle was acquired you'll know that they have minds of their own. This is not the place to be criticising other people's family set-up so I hope the discussion can die down now. Best of luck to the Doyles.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 06:44 AM

I don't usually bother to look at mudcat and, having had my attention drawn to this thread, I now know why. Open forums allow access to cranks like Jack Campin who would be ignored or ridiculed in any other walk of life. You really should find some way of editing out the loonies so that decent folk like Simon Doyle can get on with making their magic music without having to waste their time defending themselves against such twaddle.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:36 AM

I don't usually bother to look at mudcat and, having had my attention drawn to this thread, I now know why. Open forums allow access to cranks like Jack Campin who would be ignored or ridiculed in any other walk of life. You really should find some way of editing out the loonies so that decent folk like Simon Doyle can get on with making their magic music without having to waste their time defending themselves against such twaddle.

Precisely my position.

Mudcat cannot do this with any consistency because it has tolerated too many for too long.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:21 AM

Guest,   I note part of your comment with dismay!   The use of the word "loonies" is also a discriminatory and dispectful term.   Although I totally understand and agree with the level of disgust directed towards Jack Campin`s thread, you have also offended people with your remark.   Given the genre we are so interested in, should be not also be aware of the power of words?


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:23 AM


You will find that at Mudcat racist and bigotted remarks like those made by Mr. Campion don't go unchallenged.


What racist comments? I expected to get music that came out of a specific Traveller tradition (as I am used to it in Scotland, e.g. from hearing Sheila Stewart on many occasions and from knowing Duncan Williamson towards the end of his life). Didn't get anything like that: generic Irish session music played in the same way lots of people do it (except that Simon Doyle never let his kids take the lead at all - maybe one day I'll get to hear them on their own).

And considering you've been posting on the same threads as me for at least ten years, you might spell my name right. Unlike you I'm not hiding behind a pseudonym.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM

If I used my own name no one would know who was talking. It's easier for people if I stay with the same moniker after a dozen years. And it is probably easier for you to shoot the messenger than address the issue of the charge others made against your review, of racism. If your original comment had been more complete the complaint might never have been made.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle and family
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:08 AM

To campin

you say irish session music! clearly you have no understanding of the style of which irish travellers play in, and that just go's to show you know nothing about the history and music of the irish travellers

as you said you are used to hearing scottish traveller music and song which is very beautifull wich i may say so myself.

as you said at the start of the sentance after the comment in brackets = Didn't get anything like that:

There is a difference but you plain and simply don't know this!

As for generic irish session music played in the same way lots of people do it = let me make this plain and simple for you (with the best of repect for all the irish musicians out there)

There is no one who plays the Button Accordion, Tennor Banjo, Irish Fiddle OR the Uilleann Pipes in the same style as me and my family do, the only people that have played in the same style and still do is my family.

so you see campin you don't know what you are talking about, maybe you might have an idea about the lovelly music and song from Scotlands travellers but please deffinatly do not try and school me on my background or where my music has come from.

As for you saying i never let my chirldren take the leed your a bare faced liar, they took the leed in the travellers concert when the banjo started first then the accordion joined in then fiddle and pipes, and also at the Hoolie my chirldren played a full three tuned set themselves, and also at the spa theatre with banjo and pipes on the slow air.

So campin on this thread you are trying to give the impression to others that you know all about the Irish Travellers Music but I AM telling you now that YOU DO NOT.

Then you have the ordassidy to say may be you'll get the chance to hear my family play for you! Whats with you are you living in cukoo land or what?

Act your age

Simon & Family

Don't ever call me and my family ''DuDs'' Again


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:31 AM

jack campin, you are making yourself look silly,I suggest you stop digging before you get through to australia., campin for god sake put a sock in it.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:20 PM

Liz and I were delighted to share a stage with the Doyle family back in 2011 at WFW. They were good fun and as well brought up a family as we have met in a long time. I'm astonished that such a lovely group of kids and their Dad should have been the subject such a discussion. With regard to performance they are a family playing together with no pretensions to be a sort of Bellowhead. I for one enjoy hearing how the family dynamic works (Simon facilitates but does not direct by the way) and how the lads and lasses develop their music. I wish them all well.
Jack's comment is, to put it gently, a trifle insensitive in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:52 PM

."Jack's comment is, to put it gently, a trifle insensitive in my opinion."
that must be the understatement of the year


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: johncharles
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 01:23 PM

An argument which is of little benefit to either side and a thread which should end now.
john


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:40 PM

Good grief, one man makes a comment to say he didn't appreciate one act, he then goes on to comment about the "lead" of that act and his perceived attitude to the other members of the group who were playing (his children).

No "RACISM" no "HATRED" in fact no mention of the background of the performers at all.

Then the slighted party retorts with what can only be termed a "rant" and a lot of you back the guy who lost his temper.

I have not seen Simon Doyle and his family , although I did listen to the two young lads playing pipes by the bridge in Whitby. However what I have read on this site will deter me from ever going to listen to them.

Something Mr Doyle may want to bear in mind when responding to a slight criticism on a public forum is that it cuts both ways and although you may disagree with Jack Campin's views he has a right to make them in the same way as you have a right to follow the life you do.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:57 PM

O gosh you make it sound so easy and harmless on Mr.Campins part,
and for someone to say they would not go to listen to them for what they have read on this thread, i think it is very imature.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:13 PM

GUEST,
If you don't want to join then at least add your name.

'didn't appreciate one act', 'slight criticism' is rather understating in view of the terms used.

Jack's second criticisms were admirably answered by Simon, without 'ranting'. How anyone can relate 2 completely different traveller traditions in this way is beyond me.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:49 PM

I strongly recommend anyone read the first 28 posts on this thread, and stop there.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 01:43 PM

I'd just like to add my two pennorth in, I hope, an unhurtful manner.
1) I didn't find Keith Donnelly's performance at the Music Hall night funny at all, because I didn't understand it and I did't think this was a suitable act on which to end. But a lot of people there would have disagreed with me strongly! My opinion is only personal.
2) "The lads by the bridge" were well up to their usual standard. Until the fracas above, I had no idea who they were, but I shall look forward to hearing them again!

Love and Fishes,

Chris


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,CCS
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 04:54 AM

What a bitter end to a fantastic Whitby Week. Get back to the positive stuff, this is boring!


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 09:01 PM

I haven't heard the Doyle Family, and I have no dog in this fight.
I'm disappointed that a bit of negative criticism of any performer is considered to be unacceptable.Especially one which is more or less specific. A public person lays himself open to such.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:31 AM

sorry Dick,
criticism is fine when it is constructive , but it was not even criticism of the music, the criticism was based on, the critic was assuming that one of the members was a control freak,he was assuming that the performers smiles were fake,he did not know the people personally he was jumping to conclusions this is not acceptable. Jack remarks tel us more about the mood he was in, than the performers music thse remarks are close to libellous.
I have not seen these performers but i would not jump to conclusions and make remarks about control freaks. but this is typical of so much folk reviews and folk criticism which is amatuerish, and too often bitchy, and seems to be too often an excuse for the critic to pour forth his own bad mood, performers like myself and the doyle family are expectyed to be professional meanwhile we have to put up with this amaturish criticism, Irepeat ..
criticism of the music is fine if it is constructive, but this was not even criticism of the music.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:34 AM

jack campin said this...It wasn't Simon Doyle's music I disliked so much as the posing and the patriarchal control-freakery.
that in my opinion is completely out of order


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:34 AM

How anyone can relate 2 completely different traveller traditions in this way is beyond me.

The Scottish tradition I mentioned is quite clearly a distinct and identifiable one - different versions of songs, stories and tunes from the way other people do them, different style, different kinds of transmission from what you get in other kinds of Scottish traditional music.

(I have also encountered Gypsy folk music first-hand in Romania, and that's a great deal more different from the surrounding Romanian and Hungarian mainstream, but not so relevant here).

I'd never heard of the group before and knew only what the Folk Week programme told me.

So, given that blurb, I was expecting something clearly different from the kind of Irish music you might have heard every day at the Ship. Different versions, different back stories, different performance style. Something I hadn't heard before.

There may well be such a distinct kind of traveller music within the Irish tradition, but if so I didn't hear it at the concert I went to, or from the Doyles busking.

Is that clear enough?

Did YOU hear anything you could point to as distinctively Traveller in origin, unlike any other Irish music? If so, what was it?


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:34 AM

jack, I am objecting to your remarks posing and patriarchal control freakery, you owe the doyles an apology.
the best thing you can do in future is think before opening your mouth or maybe do not open you mouth.
this kind of pre judgement reminds me of the rubbish Strawhead had to put up with years ago, about them being fascists.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:38 AM

campin

This is the last comment from Simon Doyle & Family.

quote this sentance from you = There may well be such a distinct kind of traveller music within the Irish tradition, but if so I didn't hear it at the concert I went to, or from the Doyles busking. Is that clear enuogh?


As there is a very distinct Traveller style within the Irish traditional music, you have clearly stated that you havn't heard it before from saying 'there may well be' so how can you say you didn't hear it at the concert you went to if you havn't heard it before?????

As at the Travellers concert we played very old tunes from our background that i learned from my parents and also from my gradparents that was past down to us. (ie slow airs, tunes from very old travellers songs, really old lovelley jigs that were played and passed down from genaration to genaration, tunes I composed myself)

And also there were tunes played I learned from Pecker Dunne, Margaret Barry, The Fureys, Paddy Keenan amongst tunes from my own family.

As Jerry most kindley pointed out above as to the style me and my family play in.

And as to make a comment about two little boys busking at the bridge = 'or from the Doyles busking' yes there were some tunes that people new but there were also a lot of tunes played that people didn't know aswell that are from our tradition,

but you see campin you are starting to pick on two little boys aged 10 & 11 years old now arn't you!

but i'll tell you what! you should be very proud of yourself.

but of course i do remember you now you were in the ship pub the day i was there and you came out with a ignorant snide remark to me and all the musicians just look at you discussed.

Now to finish this of as you said as part of your comment!

Is That Clear Enough.

p.s me & the family just of now to catch flight to U.S to perform in a Travellers Concert


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,Simon Doyle & Family
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:42 AM

The last comment was from Simon Doyle & Family.

Thanks to everyone for the nice comments.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:18 PM

Enjoy your concert in the States! What an education for our family! When you come back perhaps you could tell us about it? In a different thread of course.

Diane Taylor


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:25 PM

Oops! Typo in last post. Should have been "your family."


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:49 PM

I see from Jack Campin's home page that he plays those highly traditional instruments the recorder, washboard and clarinet, and has a subsidiary page devoted to his cats. I certainly wouldn't want to spend more than a micro-second in his company.

http://www.campin.me.uk/MusicPhotos/Bells/sandy-bells1.jpg


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:57 PM

there is a distinct style amongst irish travellers, Iam not a great expert on this subject, but I do know a distinct style of tenor banjo playing using a thimble is one example, john keenan was an example,
I understand there is a style of uillean piping, examples of this were johnny doran, and more latterly, paddy keenan, i think it is called the open style, as against the closed style as used by liam o flynn.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:23 PM

I've actually met Jack Campin. A few years ago I made quite a few trips to Edinburgh to go to workshops at the Scottish Storytelling Centre. I went along to Sandy Bell's a few times; I only had an egg shaker but I still had a whale of a time. In the interests of fairness I will say that Jack Campin was friendly and helpful.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:48 PM

That is not the point, he made a criticism not based on the performers music and called them duds...fact


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:16 PM

Yes, I know. Even if he was disappointed by Doyle family performances he shouldn't have made comments against them of a more personal nature.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:23 PM

Good Soldier Schweik, yeah, he did call them "duds". A bit harsh perhaps. That said, I'm still curious as to how this, or anything else he said here, amounts to 'racism'. That's not been really explained at all.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:26 PM

All personal and subjective Dick. The man's entitled to his viewpoint, same as you or I. You are welcome to disagree with his views, or his way of expressing them.
What you are not welcome to do is suppress him, that's censorship.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:47 PM

when have I am tried to to suppress him,I do not have the poweron this forum or anywhere else to do that
I am criticising his criticisms which were not based on their music, he is out of order when he calls someone a control freak, when he does not know them personally, criticisms of musical performers should be based on their music not on some fantasy that someone is a control freak who may be exploiting his family.
this is the problem with a good proportion of reviewers on the folk scene, they talk crap, this is just another example, he called them duds, and then says it was not their music he disliked so much as the patriarchal control freakery.his words..It wasn't Simon Doyle's music I disliked so much as the posing and the patriarchal control-freakery.
by the way guest wyrdofalr, i have not called anyone racist.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: selby
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:52 PM

Does anyone else apart from me that this is not helpful to anyone?
Keith


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:29 PM

As I said Dick, it's his personal view, and he has a right to express it. You and I have the same right, to disagree with his point of view, and/or his means of expressing it.
Nuff sed.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: selby
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 06:19 PM

Whilst everyone is entitled to his or her view this thread sits under Whitby 2012 in my opinion this is not helping Whitby 2013 . I also believe it is good to have healthy discussion this discussion is not helping Mudcat and UK folk music. The discussion has left good discussion and become to personal .
I watched the two young lads piping near the bridge my opinion when i saw them in the future they will be awesome they also have charm and a deep interest in their type of music. anyone with boys the age of these two will know if lads of this age don't want to do it they will pay lip service and then do their own thing so follow on comments are just mischief. The sub title of Whitby is traditional folk festival their are acts appearing I do not like and their acts I like who others do not but I use my feet not my mouth as I am sure many others do
I have attended Whitby folk festival for many years and feel what is happening here is not beneficial to something I feel strongly about.
Keith


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:33 PM

If the person who started the thread wants to change the title and start a new Whitby thread, you could do that, and leave the musical slug-fest behind here. But what would this one be called? Plus, the momentum for posting may be past.

I believe I owe Jack Campin an apology - I edited my remarks above to remove the characterization I'd picked up from another writer. Since I don't know any of the parties and was simply stepping in to suggest toning down some of the remarks, it didn't help to push that loaded description further along down the thread.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 01:27 AM

when I read about the Doyle family busking in Whitby, I thought what a positive thing to do, it reminds non folk visitors that there is a Folk Festival, it adds to the atmosphere they should be praised for this and for doing extra unscheduled playing.
John, he does not, neither does anyone else have a right to make libellous remarks[patriarchal control freakery], criticisms should be about music, they should not be based on uninformed assumptions, or whether someone is gay or a transsexual or any other non musical thing, there is freedom of speech there is also a law of libel.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 12:57 PM

Simon has called a halt to all this and several people have expressed the wish to end this discussion as being of benefit to no-one and I agree. Whitby was and is always fantastic, something for everyone, hundreds of events covering things that can only be done at a weeklong festival. It is vital that we all support this. Too many similar festivals in the area are going under for various reasons.

A massive thankyou to all of the organisers and supporters.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 02:08 PM

Of Course the festival is very good, I first went there in 1974, and have been booked to perform at the festival a number of times.
The Doyle Family have a positive approach getting out and playing music on the streets letting folk visitors know that a festival is going on, adding atmosphere to the town, they should be congratulated, well done The Doyles


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Betsy
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 07:48 PM

The Doyles have closed their comments , so we should really all respect their intent, no matter how much we we would all like to get our own twopenny-worth. The thread tille is "Whitby 2012" and surely what has occurred in this thread is not what people want to read.Why don't we ask the Moderator / Joe Offer ? to close this one off - and if someone wishes to start new threads i.e. My Whitby 2012 or a separate Thread "The Doyles" and then maybe we can all get back to opening Mudact threads- which mean what they say.
Good Luck all Betsy


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 03:17 AM

Hi, Pete -

My position at Mudcat has changed, and I don't handle the "negative stuff" anymore. I pass complaints on to the Moderation Team, which has had this thread under observation and discussion for quite some time. Of course, there's no reason why somebody can't start a new thread, and leave the combatants to duke it out here. Call the new one "Whitby 2012 - your experiences," or something similar that differentiates it from the problem thread. It's hard for the Moderation Team to shut down a thread like the current one, because it is a legitimate discussion, albeit at times an unpleasant one.

-Joe Offer, Mudcat Archivist-


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:46 AM

why are some people intent on closing discussion? What harm does this discussion do to Whitby festival?
one person made a comment about a performer not based on their music,   the majority of people clearly had a good time at Whitby, The Doyles were out and about in the town giving the town extra atmosphere.
if the only criticism of a festival is one set of performers which was not based on their music,that sounds like it was a good festival.
why are people trying to suppress discussion? if you are worried about Whitbys reputation come on this thread and say all the good things about the festival.
I have always enjoyed the festival and have been many times when efddss ran it, and even when Malcolm ran it, its always been good, partly down to organisation and partly because it is an ideal venue for a festival.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack's Rake
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:57 AM

From: GUEST,sturgeon - PM
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:49 PM

I see from Jack Campin's home page that he plays those highly traditional instruments the recorder, washboard and clarinet, and has a subsidiary page devoted to his cats. I certainly wouldn't want to spend more than a micro-second in his company.

Oh come on now - what has any of that to do with the discussion?

I met some of the Doyles at Whitby and they seemed perfectly friendly. I also heard (I think) Simon issuing, from the back of the Met theatre, a very quiet heckle at a song introduction by Gavin Davenport which made me smile but could have caused a similar argument.

I've met Jack on a number of occasions and always found his company very pleasing. I've also been on the wrong side of his e-tongue many years ago on Usenet and, whilst at the time I was youthfully livid, I know see that that is his communication style - no more, no less.

The whole disagreement is, in my view, caused by imperfect communication and, perhaps, a little insensitivity on both sides.

None of it, however, justifies an attempted character assasination on the basis of a musician playing, amongst many other instruments, a recorder and liking cats.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM

jacks rake, please i must make it clear I did not say this:
I see from Jack Campin's home page that he plays those highly traditional instruments the recorder, washboard and clarinet, and has a subsidiary page devoted to his cats. I certainly wouldn't want to spend more than a micro-second in his company. YOUR STATEMENT COULD BE INTERPRETED THAT IDID.
neither did i call him a racist,I criticised his criticism which was nothing to do with the music, and which was completely out of order


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 10:17 AM

I stayed away from this thread for a while as I could see where it was Going. I was correct in my assumption, so I will stay a way a little longer and try again later, bye bye.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 10:25 AM

It's not Jack's statement that caused this, it was the inability of some fuckwits to get past it and discuss the music or even Whitby. It could have sparked a discussion of Irish Traveler music. Instead, the festival and music were not so important to those people as trying to get a fight going by attacking Jack, who, despite his directness, was DISCUSSING MUSIC.

I closed this once. Someone else re-opened it. I never intended it stay closed but temporary closure might give some folks a chance to cool off and evaluate whether what they had to say was worth changing the thread into yet another flame war. But I forgot how desperately tight a grasp some people here can have on perceived wrongs.

This is how this thread started:
"Subject: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,old git - PM
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 09:03 AM

Back from a great week at Whitby...songs,beer and friends old and new...priceless! Thanks to everybody who gave "Icebound" such a great reception and sorry to all those who couldn't get in!
I also enjoyed the rest of the week ,whether performing, MCing , running singarounds or just joining in impromptu sessions. Where did the week go? Here's to next year!
Oh..and congrats to Jim and Graeme's maritime sessions for raising such a large amount for the Whitby Lifeboat. £3113!!!
geoff t
I think it's a shame that some people should think their own offendedness is more important that talking about this festival. If you want to start a fight, at least have the decency to take it out of a perfectly good discussion and start your OWN thread.

This is my first and last comment in this thread.
You have a choice: whether to continue barking and growling about side issues or let the world know how great this festival was/is and how much fun you had/have there.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Mick Tems
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 10:34 AM

Folkwales Online Magazine has just been published, with Mike Greenwood's column, Dancewales, carrying pictures of Whitby Festival and Welsh team Dawnswyr Aberesc - thanks, Bill Rich!


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Jack's Rake
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 12:05 PM

From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM

"jacks rake, please i must make it clear I did not say this:
I see from Jack Campin's home page that he plays those highly traditional instruments the recorder, washboard and clarinet, and has a subsidiary page devoted to his cats. I certainly wouldn't want to spend more than a micro-second in his company. YOUR STATEMENT COULD BE INTERPRETED THAT IDID."

Only by a dimwit. I preceded it with Sturgeon's username and time stamp, though I forgot to put some quotes around it ... This site is quite primitive, isn't it?

I don't see any reason that the fact my post was after one of yours would lead any non-thicko to assume you'd said that when you clearly didn't.

Sorry, anyhow.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: selby
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 12:25 PM

Once again we have a situation where a little spat his kicked off that has nothing to do with the festival.
GSS if I was new to folk music and interested in going to a festival what opinion do I get of Whitby, no mention of the brilliant artists, Ceilidh's, sessions workshops dance displays etc.
I may think twice about going and then that would be a loss to all thats why in my opinion that this thread should be allowed to die.
Keith


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 01:06 PM

if there is no mention of the good music at the festival that is the fault of the posters.
Jeri,
I am discussing an attack on a performer, and that attack was nothing to do with their music but some perceived idea which was quite insulting that the performer was a patriarchal control freak, if posters   thought a little more carefully before they slagged off performers this thread would not have developed how it has,   
The only thing I have attacked about Jack was his post, plus a previous post about RoyHarris.
It is not a side issue, BUT SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT. that performers are judged on their music, not whether some person who does not know them perceives them to be a control freak, or whether some person decides not to book someone at their club because they are a trans sexual or gay or is a traveller, or black, or brown, or because they are a muslim or something not related to their music, are you receiving me, Jeri?


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Spectacled Warbler
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 03:46 PM

I had an absolutely fantastic time at Whitby. 'Icebound' was superb, hours and hours of excellent English music sessions, old time American, melodeon net session, everybody friendly and lots of laughs. Roll on 2013!   And THANKS to everybody who helped to organise it.   My life would be sadder without you.

Joy


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 04:13 PM

GSS-
"It is not a side issue, BUT SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT. that performers are judged on their music, not whether some person who does not know them perceives them "
Not so. A performer is judged by the total performance. What you said may be true of recordings, but not of live performances.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 04:31 PM

a performer should not judged by some persons misconceived and uniformed perception that he is a control freak, yes uniformed, you cannot make a decision about someone or their family if you do not know them.
a performer is judged by their total performance of their music, if you went to a classical concert you judge the evening on the performance of the music,if you got a watersons concert in an arts centre, or a ralph mctell concert in an arts centre you listen to the songs and make your judgement on the music, why should the Doyle family be treated any difFerntly to any other performer putting on a show, the reality is that in any concert involving more than one person, someone has to be the leader and make the decisions about the set list the introductions etc, lets look at The Chieftains does anyone call Paddy Moloney a control freak, but he is the organiser[as I understand it].
as a professional performer[ on a much smaller scale than the Chieftains], I understand this, I do not think Jack does, he generally plays his music [ as I understand it] in a more informal setting. in any group there has to be a leader, that does not make them a control freak or an exploiter of children.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 04:41 PM

everyone who organises a festival should be thanked it involves a hell of a lot of work, as does organising a club.
my experiences of the whitby week have always been good the local people seem to make the festival goers welcome, ther have been sessions in different pubs , in fact myself and the Wilsons and others started the original session in the pub that was then called the cutty sark, not far from the station.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 04:44 PM

that should read the original sing around session in the cutty sark, there were music sessions in the elsinore and spontaneous music sessions in the plough and out the back of the plough , that was before sam smiths changed their music policy


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Acorn4
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 05:10 PM

Just out of interest, what is actually the policy of the local authorities on busking at Whitby.

We only saw about 3 or 4 buskers in the three days we were there. This compares to Sidmouth where all the streets are full of buskers most of the time, and we'd always thought that perhaps it wasn't really allowed at Whitby - this is just for info.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:41 PM

The Festival programme always makes it clear what the policy regarding busking is in the following terms:

"Indiscriminate busking is frowned upon (not just by us). So, if you want to perform in the streets - and help the Festival- PLEASE call at the Festival office to get clearance and advice on appropriate spots">

So it's clearly not something to do on the spur of the moment or without official clearance, unlike Sidmouth.


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: Betsy
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 08:23 PM

Thanks Joe , that was as fair and reasonble a response that I could wish.
It has only entered into my head the concern that how many people who were NOT ACTUALLY at this " particular performance " - are prolonging this particular "debate".


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Subject: RE: Whitby 2012
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 06:40 AM

I started this thread to share my great experiences at Whitby this year with others and for them to do likewise with me. I've just returned from a week's holiday to find it completely hi-jacked . Surely one comment and response would have been adequate...or if more was required someone should have started a new thread.   Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion.....but thread creep/drift on this scale is not pleasant or desirable
geoff t


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