BS: Solution to the gun problem-??

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 09:36 AM

Charmion said, in part:

To expect retired military and law-enforcement personnel to accept the responsibility of carrying weapons in middle and old age is to impose on them a burden of care that I, for one, would not be willing to bear.

This law does not "expect" anyone "to accept the responsibility" of concealed carry. It merely allows such carrying.

Unless I missed something or misunderstood what seems to be plain language of the Act. If I did, please point out the language.

Dave Oesterreich

[two messages deleted because of some odd troll. Thread will be closed for now]

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: saulgoldie
Date: 08 May 13 - 08:17 AM

Cheryl Wheeler...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op7agdIFOGY

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 13 - 08:06 AM

""Under 4 will probably be too young for the experience to have a real emotional impact and understanding of what they are seeing.""

Or what they are doing!

And there is the best argument against even the concept of manufacturing a gun for children of that age.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,SPB - At Work
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:58 AM

Under 4 will probably be too young for the experience to have a real emotional impact and understanding of what they are seeing.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:15 AM

""Every kid by the age of ten visits a mortuary to see first hand what firearms do to human bodies.""

Accompanied by mother and father too, and you had better (in view of the thread title) make that - by the age of four -.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:19 AM

Every kid by the age of ten visits a mortuary to see first hand what firearms do to human bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 May 13 - 01:44 PM

Is gun ownership a matter for the states to legislate? Does the federal government have the power to enforce regulations nationally?

I wonder if "states rights" prevail.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 May 13 - 05:34 AM

The USA is proving on a daily basis that they can neither enact good gun legislation, nor enforce existing gun legislation.

Guns, in the shape of the NRA, rule the USA!

The worst of it is that they have brought it on themselves.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: gnu
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:37 PM

I clicked on this thread again just for the heck of it and HOLY MOLY! Someone posted something VERY insightful and positive!

McGrath... "Since, as gnu sad, you aren't going to be able to disarm your population, why not make sure that gun ownership has sme useful side effects for your country?"

It's about time! Of course, if that requires old men and women to show up fer drills as part of a militia, they will shoot you. Given the aging population, yer gonna leak like a sieve.

Ya canNOT disarm yer average Yank. Ya CAN enact good gun laws... well, in theory ya can. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,Darfur Deng
Date: 05 May 13 - 08:45 PM

"The NRA OWNS congress!", and the "Liberal Nazis" own the Democratic Party...so what's your point Kendall?

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:24 PM

I don't want to get gnu spitting blood again - but as I read it Ron's suggestion wasn't to go round taking the guns off people, it was to require them to turn up to drill and training sessions, so as to be available for the old well regulated militia as required.

So if people didn't turn up it would mean either they didn't have guns, or they were falling down on their civil obligations. I can't see any particular problem in ascertaining which of that was the case.

I suppose there would be those who swore they didn't have the guns, or hid them if someone went round to check. But it'd be a drag having to be a covert gun owner if you enjoyed your guns, and if it turned out you'd been lying that would presumably have consequences. It would be simpler to turn up to Militia Training, and probably fun as well.

It might well be useful to have big Militia with millions of members. Maybe they could do othe useful things on the side. A sort of peacetime Home Guard, like Dad's Army.

Since, as gnu sad, you aren't going to be able to disarm your population, why not make sure that gun ownership has sme useful side effects for your country?

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:04 PM

Oops, too late

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:03 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: gnu
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:03 PM

bobad... requirement? Strange. But, when the Canuck gun laws keep people at risk with home invasions with SOME (I like the laws but not ALL of them... as I have said SO many times) of the bad gun laws, I can understand why this crazy shit goes on south of the border.

It's easy to fix but... I shall not add to the several thousand posts+ in various threads at Mudcat. Just wanted to point out such shocking bullshit... sad... just fuckin sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 05:26 PM

Yeah, well, when someone's kid in Highgate takes a bullet in the head they may revisit the issue.

And hopefully the parents will sue the the living shit out of the town as well.

Beware of stupid people in large groups.

Gimmie fucking shelter.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:55 AM

Georgia city ordinance would require a gun in every home

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: gnu
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:49 AM

HUH?

Vt. town votes down back yard shooting ban

AP / March 6, 2013

http://www.boston.com/r/SysConfig/WebPortal/Boston/Framework/images/site_graphics/etaf/pointer_bottom.gif

HIGHGATE, Vt. (AP) — Residents in the town of Highgate, Vt., have voted against a proposed ordinance to bar recreational shooting in residential areas.

The ordinance had been requested by residents of several streets who said neighbors firing guns in inadequate backyard ranges are creating a safety hazard.

Residents defeated the measure at Town Meeting on Tuesday. The vote was 65 to 38 to defeat the proposed ban.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:21 PM

A "paved airstrip"?

I foresee the day when across the country long stretches of straight roadway will be blocked off in order to allow planes to land and take off. Rebels versus government versus freedom fighters versus terrorists...

I hope I'm dead by then.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:39 PM

No comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 06:49 PM

""Pretty good, but if the Evil Doers start to take over the country, I don't intend to wait until they come for me.

CLICKY.

Don Firth""

Forget about our technology, Don F. Think about taking our advice.

It just might be better than a single obsolete jumpjet!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 06:15 AM

Who can afford the fuel? I mean, 2 minutes to the gallon? At idle?

A friend of mine tore down his hen house and built n airplane out of the parts. He used to say he really flew the coop. I'll get me hat.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 11:57 PM

Jet planes are a great thing to have to protect your home pre-emptively by hitting "the other guys" first, and you can pick up ex-Soviet Mig-21s for a surprisingly low price...and they're still not bad interceptors to this day.

this one's a two-seater

Only trouble is...where do you get the paved air strip to fly it from?

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 11:08 PM

Well, there's always. . . .

Run like hell and hide in the underbrush!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 09:19 PM

I'll stick with the Harrier. Sure kicked the snot outta the Argentines and their jumpers. Over hill, over dale and prevail... swoop, hover, KILL. Them Brits is gooood.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 08:39 PM

Might be a problem there, so I think I'll change my whole approach.

Confront them with armaments that no one has dealt with in a long while and might just completely baffle them. And one that gets around the whole Second Amendment issue.

Flourish of trumpets. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 07:32 PM

Sure, but is it street legal?

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 05:50 PM

Pretty good, but if the Evil Doers start to take over the country, I don't intend to wait until they come for me.

CLICKY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:36 PM

Sounds like you're on a good patriotic course there, Don, and I bet Chongo will give you a ringing endorsement, as will his good buddy, Clint Eastwood. I suggest you acquire some hand grenages as well. You never know when you might need them. Raving homophobes, racists, rednecks, Tea Partiers, right-to-lifers, and mobs of Christian fundamentalists could invade your residence at any moment, so safety should never just be taken for granted.

This is why I have a refurbished M5A1 in my driveway, all gassed up and ready for action at a moment's notice. My neighbours and I, good liberals all of us, went in on it together, cos you have to have a 4-man crew to operate the thing properly. No Republican would dare threaten us now!

Ready to rock n' roll!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:00 PM

Since we good, patriotic American citizens must stay constantly alert for signs of totalitarian forces inside our government trying to usurp control and turn the United States into a liberal/fascist/communist/bad-ass/dictatorship, we must be fully prepared to rise up, form local militias, and take our beloved country back from the Forces of Evil. We good, patriotic American citizens MUST maintain our own stores of arms and ammunition, just in case!!

I have the right as a patriotic American citizen to keep and bear arms, according to the Second Amendment to the Constitution.

I want my own bazooka and a large supply of rockets!!

Ka-BOOM!!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 01:37 PM

Change is inevitable; resistance to change is also inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 01:27 PM

I hear you, LH.

I'm glad to be discussing the gun problem with a person who makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 01:02 PM

"How many hasbeens does it take?" (Snoopy ponders the great question as he drowns his sorrows at the airfield canteen in the brief respite between desperate missions flown over the Western Front.)

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 12:55 PM

Groan!

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 12:54 PM

It seems to me that a clean has been would be far preferable to a dirty one. Therefore the washed-up has been is definitely more desirable than the unwashed-up has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 12:28 PM

But what about the non-washed- up has-beens?

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 07:20 AM

Amos is right. No washed up has beens would be considered.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 11:23 PM

The problem can be easily solved. Take the guns away from all them untrustworthy, unstable, violence-prone humans and give them to us Chimps! It's as simple as A + B = C. Problem solved. Chimps know how to handle guns responsibly. Most humans don't (except for my good buddy Clint). That is all you got to know about this issue.

The APP will happily collect and take good care of all the guns in America. Just hand 'em over.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 08:51 PM

The core of the solution lies in qualifying gun-bearers at all levels. The assumption that because someone WAS qualified as an ex-cop he therefore IS qualified is very risky. To qualify as a gun-bearer, you should be thoroughly vetted as to your legal history, current level of competency in safety, and minimal physical copetency (eyesight, hearing and coordination). It's like driving a car, only more likely to do harm (since that's what it was built to do) in the wrong hands.


S

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 08:50 PM

But wussy or not, they need to have pressure put on them by the general public--among other things, to outweigh any campaign contributions by the NRA.

Question is: what's the best way to do that?   I think that, as I say, publicizing the continuing gun carnage shows promise in rousing the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 08:08 PM

When it comes down to the NRA what FDR said comes to mind: All we have to fear is fear itself... I believe strongly that if the wussy Democrats back down then they will be the ones who will have a primary challenge to fear a lot more than the NRA...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 07:26 PM

And, actuarially, the most likely Judges to retire or shuffle off this mortal coil are not the conservatives. So any new appointments by Obama are not likely to change the balance in the desired direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 07:15 PM

The NRA only owns Congress since the general public is too apathetic to change that.

That's why publicizing the daily carnage--with stories giving specifics to the handgun violence, especially 7 year olds shooting 5 year olds, and similar "human interest" stories shows promise as a means to change the situation.    If you put faces, names, and other specifics to the constant gun toll, you may be able to stoke the outrage needed to put the NRA and its running dogs in their place. I'm usually against outrage as a tactic, but in this case it fits and is probably the best bet.

The only other reasonable hope is that Kennedy will read some history soon and realize the true background of the 2nd Amendment--and that the NRA line is hogwash.

After all, the last decision was 5 to 4.   All we need is 5 to 4 the other way.

There is no real chance of repealing the 2nd Amendment--but all you really have to do for the desired result is to read the whole thing in the strict constructionist fashion conservatives are always pushing.   But it has to be the whole thing--both phrases.   In the historical context of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 03:47 PM

Just as an extra comment, in my husband's family's district in Ivory Coast (Adjame,a shanty-suburb of Abidjan) there was a running battle last night of two rival gangs. Young lads from both groups were fighting like mad in the street. Some of them were actually armed with pistols of some sort which they'd obtained during the civil war. The Police were called. Now the Police there are terribly violent, vicious, corrupt and many on drugs too. A gun battle ensued, with the Police firing on the youngsters indiscriminately. My husband's young cousin was shot in the head and died instantly. There wasn't much left of his head in fact. The Authorities took the body away to the local mortuary, and the family are being asked for 150,000 fr CFA (about £200, an astronomical sum) for it to be released for burial. If they don't produce the money (and it's impossible that they could) he'll be chucked in a burial pit with dead prisoners and criminals. So some lads were fighting. If there had been no guns on either side, no-one would have died. The boy was only seventeen.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 03:11 PM

Then perhaps it's time for Congress to emancipate itself!

There was a time when Jim Crow interests owned Congress, but those days have passed. U.S. history is full of great changes achieved through popular will.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 02:30 PM

The NRA OWNS congress!

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 12:31 PM

Nobody has seriously suggested giving up all guns.    Single-shot rifles should be fine.

But also nobody has made a convincing case the general public needs handguns.

That's where the push needs to be made--against handguns and guns other than single-shot rifles.

Otherwise you get into a domestic arms race--which is what we have now.

And just the list of casualties on "Gun Appreciation Day" should show the insanity of that approach.    A similar list happens every day.

Maybe if each daily list could be published-with details such as the 7 year old shooting his 5 year old brother--the general public would become aware of the daily carnage, and start to put pressure on Congress to stand up to the NRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 07:55 AM

Getting rid of All GUNS would be the solution.
Meantime, we need to counter the bad guys, and giving up the guns that belong to law abiding citizens won't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 09:09 PM

I get several different newsletters in my e-mail every morning, from several different viewpoints, from progressive to very conservative, just to keep abreast of who's saying what and what the general spectrum of thought is.

The following article was in this morning's AlterNet Headlines.

The NRA has said different things at different times.

Most interesting!   (Bullet holes in their feet?)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 07:41 PM

Gun nuts are probably quite capable of holding their own, nudge nudge, wink wink, knawotameen?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Charmion
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:06 PM

Good question.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:50 PM

Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands?

Ernest Gaines

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Charmion
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:48 PM

Nah. Openly carried weapons are just targets for thieves.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:33 PM

On second thought, maybe those former cops could help---if their weapons weren't concealed, but in holsters right out in the open.
Deterrence might be a better idea if it scare off would-be shooters before they started shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 07:22 PM

Yeah!

That's about right Bill. If you don't like the message, kill the messenger.

They don't have enough knowledge of, or concern for, history to know that has never worked to solve any problem.

FOOLS!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:41 PM

"Pity there's no new Martin Luther King on the horizon."

The really zealous militia-types would know how to deal with one if he DID arise.

sarcasm? Me? nawwwww....

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Charmion
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:19 PM

This discussion reminds me of that cliche definition of madness -- doing the same thing repeatedly while expecting different results.

The solution to a problem that can be summed up in the three words "too many guns" cannot be solved by increasing the number of guns, whoever has them. People who have guns know exactly what to do to counter a threat of violence: pull out the gun, etc. etc. It's clear to the most casual observer how well that's going.

Maybe it is time for a massive disarmament movement. It's an important phase of post-conflict stability operations - the United Nations did it in El Salvador in 1991-92 (my brother Andrew who sometimes posts here deployed on that one) and NATO did it in Macedonia in 2000. In the U.S., however, it would go better as a popular groundswell like the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s.

Pity there's no new Martin Luther King on the horizon.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 03:23 PM

Aside from new stand your ground laws that make it lawful to shoot and kill as long as your are afraid, many new gun laws make it explicitly lawful to take guns to church, bars and day care facilities.

Gun maufacturers are hoping for more sales.

Another school shooting in Texas today.
Texas mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:58 PM

I did not advocate having a bunch of old, crippled, senile ex cops running around like Barney Fife's grandfather!
They would have to meet certain qualifications and just being an ex cop would not do.
I still say its better than nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:39 AM

""To say that putting thousands of armed police officers out among the public is not a good idea doesn't make sense to me.""

But that isn't what was suggested, is it?

The actual intention is to arm elderly ex cops, ex soldiers, ex security guards and ex private investigators.

Apart from the doubts as to whether they will WANT to be unpaid cops, their reflexes, eyesight and general fitness will be at best suspect.

Given the aforementioned zero to six feet average hit rate of 43% by young fully capable officers with up to date proficiency assessments, what's your best guess as to how many miscreants will be hit and how many innocent bystanders?

With one or two widely spaced and unusual incidents (killing far fewer than any of the regular US mass shootings), almost all UK gun deaths are crook on crook, with illegal guns.

Our cops don't use or carry guns, and only rarely deploy tazers, yet we have 41 gun deaths in a year when the US loses over 11,000 citizens.

Even when our armed response teams are called out, nine times out of ten (maybe many more) end without a shot being fired.

We have violence here too, but nothing like what you see daily.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:11 AM

At last count there are 30,000 people in Maine with concealed weapons permits. As far as I know, not one has committed a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 06:56 AM

Don, apparently there is something Brits can do that we can't manage.
To say that putting thousands of armed police officers out among the public is not a good idea doesn't make sense to me. ANYTHING is better than what we have now!

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:40 PM

Thank you, Dick. That was a finely reasoned response.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 03:56 PM

Don(Wyziwyg)T - congratulations on a great post 20 Jan 13 - 07:01 PM. The absolute truth and my feelings precisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 03:31 PM

""When you factor in all of the other elements that are involved in shooting at an adversary, that's a high hit rate," said Raymond W. Kelly, the New York police commissioner. "The adrenaline flow, the movement of the target, the movement of the shooter, the officer, the lighting conditions, the weather ... I think it is a high rate when you consider all of the variables""

Hit Rate forty three percent from zero to six feet, for a fully trained officer whose proficiency rating is bang up to date.

Frightening,......for two reasons:

1). Where do the fifty seven percent of missed shots end up?
2). What would be the expected hit rate for completely untrained, but legally armed, citizens?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 02:13 PM

Kendall, Olddude et al:

New York City police statistics show that simply hitting a target, let alone hitting it in a specific spot, is a difficult challenge. In 2006, in cases where police officers intentionally fired a gun at a person, they discharged 364 bullets and hit their target 103 times, for a hit rate of 28.3 percent, according to the department's Firearms Discharge Report. The police shot and killed 13 people last year.

In 2005, officers fired 472 times in the same circumstances, hitting their mark 82 times, for a 17.4 percent hit rate. They shot and killed nine people that year.

In all shootings — including those against people, animals and in suicides and other situations — New York City officers achieved a 34 percent accuracy rate (182 out of 540), and a 43 percent accuracy rate when the target ranged from zero to six feet away. Nearly half the shots they fired last year were within that distance. In Los Angeles, where there are far fewer shots discharged, the police fired 67 times in 2006 and had 27 hits, a 40 percent hit rate, which, while better than New York's, still shows that they miss targets more often they hit them.

Bad marksmanship? Police officials and law enforcement experts say no, contending that the number of misses underscores the tense and unpredictable nature of these situations. For example, a 43 percent hit rate for shots fired from zero to six feet might seem low, but at that range it is very likely that something has already gone wrong: perhaps an officer got surprised, or had no cover, or was wrestling with the suspect.

"When you factor in all of the other elements that are involved in shooting at an adversary, that's a high hit rate," said Raymond W. Kelly, the New York police commissioner. "The adrenaline flow, the movement of the target, the movement of the shooter, the officer, the lighting conditions, the weather ... I think it is a high rate when you consider all of the variables."
(N.Y. Times)

And these are trained officers who are required to requalify periodically. I can't see that retired cops, who are older, slower, and are not required to demonstrate proficiency on a regular basis, would do any better.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 12:25 PM

Excellent post, Don. Maybe pride and shame will work.   Nothing else has.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 07:01 PM

Nothing, it seems, will ever divorce Americans from their love affair with the means of destroying human life, because that is precisely what is being debated here.

Americans kill, with guns, nearly three times as many of their fellow humans as are killed by automobiles in the UK, and 268 times as many as are killed with guns.

They then kill astronomical numbers with automobiles in addition.

When somebody from the UK points out the simple equation:- NO GUNS = NO GUN DEATHS, he is called nasty names and told to mind his own business.

I'm sick of hearing that the World's foremost "CAN DO" nation CAN'T!

We did it, and it wasn't easy, and now even our police don't need guns for day to day work.

Are you Americans admitting that there are things we Brits can do, THAT YOU CANNOT?

That would certainly be a first.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 07:00 PM

I don't have any problems with the LEOSA, but I wonder whether it's worth the effort. On the face of it, it sounds like a way to put more trained, qualified law enforcers on the street. The problem is that cops rarely just happen upon a situation that requires their intervention, armed or otherwise. Outside of routine traffic stops, they usually respond to information that's relayed from a victim or witness, to a dispatcher, and then to their radio. When cops do happen across crimes in progress, it's usually in intensely patrolled high crime areas, not exactly the type of place where a vacationing or retired cop is apt to find himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 02:14 PM

That was sarcasm sweetie. :-)

Ohmmm and frustration.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Charmion
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 01:32 PM

Kendall, I read the law at the link posted by BBruce, and the related Wikipaedia article as well. I used my own experience to show both what I think of the value of the law and why I drew that conclusion. I understand that the law, as written, applies to retired law-enforcement officers, not ex-military personnel such as I, but I considered the two professions close enough at least in the area of weapons-handling practices to be comparable.

999, Jeri and my brother Andrew all addressed your point directly.

In choosing OMMM as the main alternative, you set up a false dichotomy. That's just bad logic and unworthy of a debater of your substantial calibre.

Pun intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 12:11 PM

"Apparently, my question is not well received. Well, I did ask."

I think the question WAS well received. Many people have read the law and put in their two cents. Some folks don't see it as a solution, but the whole world ain't in lock-step.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 12:06 PM

Ya don't SPB, but since guns ain't gonna go away, what do you offer as a solution instead?

Checking out people who own guns would certainly increase the public's safety level. In Twain's words, you can make something foolproof but you can't make it damned foolproof. In fact, similar things can be said of knives, bows, hammers, automobiles, etc. Life gives no guarantees.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 12:02 PM

Apparently, my question is not well received. Well, I did ask.

OHMMMMMM

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 11:45 AM

Is the present or past state of someone's mental health sufficient safeguard?. Functional mental health issues can happen in somebody's life - something like 25% - 30% of the population? So, to protect the rights of gun owners, is it then reasonable for everyone in the UK to be psychiatrically assessed several times a year, or is that a greater intrusion on individual liberties? Otherwise how would one guarantee that a gun owner will not, at any time in the next 50/60 years present a danger to themselves or others? In the case of having used a gun for any crime, how do you make sure that those who do not have police or criminal records PROVE they they have never done so, anf will never do so in the future?

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 08:32 AM

"well organized militia"

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 08:27 AM

"what he said was absolutely inane"

Not that anybody ever uses sarcasm on Mudcat to make a point.   Of course not. Certainly not I.


Look, in the future I envision, gun owners will have a choice. Either they can show up regularly for drill, as the Founding Fathers intended (which would fit with their own insistence on strict constructionism--and drill will include all elements I mentioned earlier on the thread.) Or they can recognize that the 2nd Amendment has long since lost any imagined utility it ever had---and it had precious little at the time of passage. Its main thrust, that a "well-organized miltia" could substitute for a standing army (due to the, at least partially justified, fear of a standing army which dominated political thinking at the time) was an almost unmitigated disaster from the start. As recognized by people like Washington at the time.

And as I have been saying, on this and other related threads, since the day of the Newtown shootings.

If this whole hideous situation has any ghost of a silver lining, perhaps a possible one will be a rise in respect for the study of history. If the NRA and its brilliant defenders on and off Mudcat--including 5 of 9 Justices of the Supreme Court--had made any effort to study the history of the Bill of Rights period, perhaps they would not make quite so spectacularly stupid and ignorant comments on the 2nd Amendment.

Unless of course they intend to stay ignorant.   Interestingly enough, continuing ignorance is in fact their best defense.

One of the many ironies of the situation is the degree to which otherwise sensible people have swallowed the mythology that seems to support the NRA defense of the 2nd Amendment--especially the notion that the Revolution was won by "guys with guns".    Wrong.    Washington despaired uncounted times before 1783 that he was expected to win with a bunch of guys with guns against the world's top military power.   What he wanted was not guys with guns but an army. To a large, but not total, extent, he eventually got one.   And even so, it was a near thing.   1781 was the last chance, he was told by the French, and only the constellation of events leading to Yorktown made it work. Many people don't realize the danger the 13 colonies were under in 1781 to have a mediated solution imposed on them--which very likely would not have included a US of all all 13 colonies--or perhaps not independence at all.

Even after Yorktown, as I've mentioned earlier on Mudcat,, American independence was not a sure thing. Only the change in government in the UK made it possible.

History is worth studying--if only to be able to make informed comment on current events.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 10:48 PM

9.... YES YES YES YES!!!!! I have been sayin that for ages regarding GOOD gun laws!!!! NOBODY LISTENS! NOBODY READS!!!! NO... NO.... NOOOOObody!

9... "I think no one is trying to take guns away from millions..."

???????? That is what I just QUOTED and written above and written in theread after thread! and I pointed out AGAIN and SO MANY times in the past as the inane bullshit that STOPS good gun laws from even having a snowball's chance in hell. Sweet JAYSUS! I give up. Youse can all let the guns that you apparentltly fear shoot yourselves in the foot. YOU are pulling the triggersssss. Have fun with that.

gnightgnu

Go ahead and shit on me after I leave... again. I really can't be arsed to respond any more. Youse deserve what you get on accounta yer the ones that cause it. Twits.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 08:27 PM

I think no one is trying to take guns away from millions--make that hundreds of millions--of people. But what's wrong with having to demonstrate you are competent with gun safety? Having to show you do not, due to mental disability/inability of one form or other, present a danger to yourself or others? Show you have never used a gun in the commission of a crime (misdemeanor or felony)?

I find the aforementioned to be reasonable, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 07:13 PM

Charmion... I don't care what you believe. What he SAID was absolutely inane. It's WHAT HE SAID. It's in writing. It's not open to interpretation because that is WHAT HE SAID. And THAT is the problem.

YET AGAIN... when people say inane fucking shit... it IS inane fucking shit and THEY are a VERY LARGE part of the problem in moving forward with getting good gun laws in place, and until the gun nuts and the antigun nuts start talking commone sense, SFA is gonna get done and people are gonna die. THAT is MY point. And I have been trying to get SOMEond, ANYone, on EITHER side to understand it for years.

And, I have failed again. The 2nd amendment is fuck all. It's words on paper and those words can be AMENDED! fer fuck sake! But, one last time, they will never be amended by a bunch of idiots who couldn't organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a hand full of hundred dollar bills and a half dozen drunk sailors. WTF don't any of youse on either side GET about the very simple fact that you CANNOT take MILLIONS of guns away from MILLIONS of people? If that is the level of intelligence of anti gun nuts, WE will NEVER get ANYwhere.

Go ahead and whine about the (true & whacko) gun nuts and pontificate about how superior you are to ALL gun nuts but few of you actually demonstrate your "superiority".... rather, just the opposite. And that is why you will never be successful. Irrationality is only successful if you are well armed.... I have proof.... and so do YOUSE. Apparently, youse can't figure out that shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:20 PM

gnu, I don't believe Ron seriously expects gun owners to start parading with the National Guard. I think he's reiterating a point I have made myself, that the Second Amendment is a relic of a far-distant past and therefore ripe for repeal, or whatever it is Americans do with bits of their Constitution that have ceased to work as the founding fathers intended.

Like it or not, the Second Amendment is the foundation stone of all weapons-related law in the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 04:57 PM

"I trained on the FN-C1, too. (Never did know why it was taken out of service.)"

$ and mobility and something that some may dispute BUT I will say it anyway. Experts will (at least one that I know of) post to this and say I am full of shit but the guy that told me this was a Golden Bullet RCAF Canuck Airman so... ya know what I'm sayin eh?... a 762 140 (the Russian 762 bullets are a different weight) whizzer (all of which are full metal jacket, of course) wounds as intended and agreed in the RsOE of the Geneva convention (yes, I know why) and so does the 556 55. However, the 556 fires in a FAR different pattern on full auto (or even in 3 burst for that matter) than the 762 even when the optional gas adjustment is turned to full and it does so in a fashion that KILLS because the bullets "tumble" - essentially, on full auto, you have a long range shotgun in your hands which delivers a wide pattern of 55g "shot" which, when not travelling in true "trajectory", can kill a man if it hits him in any majot joint or bone structure... or just about anywhere else. Such a burst is exceptionally effective in theatres in which western forces have been engaged since WW2.

"And that they can defend their castles, in the time-honored macho way (at least in Westerns and similar genres) by blowing away anybody they don't like."

Silly statement.

"So all gun owners, from now on, will have to show up for drill on a regular basis--just as the plan was back then."

Sillier. You miss the whole point of good gun laws and go straight to a position which you can NEVER accomplish, thereby wasting your time and breath. Can't you... any of you who say such silly things... understand that your position will only halt any and all progress that can be made by good gun laws because the guys with the guns HAVE FUCKING GUNS?! and they won't LET you take them away??? Who is gonna take those guns away from them? Not me. And CERTAILY not you. Wake the fuck up and start talking some common sense.

Oh... yeah... shit... I said I wouldn't say that again on any more gun threads on the last gun thread. WTF was I thinking? Common sense? Thing of the past... apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 02:21 PM

It was a question!

Schools are not the only places where nut cases shoot people.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

Keeping both eyes open while taking aim is advised in the UK as well. I always find it difficult.

Back on topic, I don't see how Public law 108-277 provides any sort of solution to the gun problem. How many cops or ex-cops go shooting up kids in schools?

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 11:35 AM

Solution: curtail the NRA or even dump it. Arrest LaPierre.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 11:20 AM

Never enjoyed firing a real weapon--lean more towards rubber darts.

From Army basic training the incident I most remember is when we were separated into scorers and "marksmen" (switching off).   They weren't happy with the scores so they went along the line telling the scorers to get the scores up.    They weren't talking to the "marksmen", just the scorers.

Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 11:11 AM

I know Andrew's an expert, but I'm a non-Canadian. As an American, we were taught it's best to keep both eyes open, but I know it was hard for some to do, and I occasionally had to work at it. I had to keep telling my left eye not to let my right take over. We got the same advice when using microscopes and cameras.

I never carried a weapon around as a routine part of job, except once, and yes, it was a huge pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 10:40 AM

Andrew, this is a bit off topic, but you'd be the guy to ask. As a right-handed youngster I shot with my left eye closed. As a teenager I started keeping both eyes open (mostly for safety's sake: didn't want someone running from my left into my field of fire). Now it just seems 'natural' to shoot that way. My question is, is this a particularly Canadian thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 10:26 AM

At my remove from wearing uniform of a dozen years, I would not want to have the carriage of small arms imposed on me--and I was an artillery instuctor, and a qualified range and safety officer (everything from .22" to air defence missiles) to boot! The management of a weapon is of constant concern for those on whom it is imposed. You must not carry anything on which you have not passed Tests on Elementary Training and range qualification. Range qualification takes time and money.

I loved shooting--and became a better shot than my sister, once I learned to leave the disengaged eye open, contrary to the Rule of Aim--but I was always happy to turn in weapons and relieve myself of the responisibility involved in keeping track of it and keeping it ready to be brought to bear. Keeping track of a weapon when you need to have a nap or a crap is not fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 08:40 AM

"not glamorous or exciting".       That's the crux of the problem.    So many are convinced that it is glamorous and exciting.

And that they can defend their castles, in the time-honored macho way (at least in Westerns and similar genres) by blowing away anybody they don't like.

And not have to answer to anybody else.

They want the "every man his own militia" approach.

That's why "well-regulated" is the solution.   Just interpret the 2nd Amendment as the Founding Fathers intended it---which, as I've noted elsewhere, is what the NRA et al. keep whining about anyway (they constantly bitch and moan about how judges "make law rather than interpret it".    Fine, let's go along with the conservative insistance on strict constructionism--let's divine exactly what the authors of the 2nd Amendment had in mind at the time it was passed. It's not hard to do. At the time of the Bill of Rights the militia, yet again, was to substitute for a standing army.

So all gun owners, from now on, will have to show up for drill on a regular basis--just as the plan was back then.

Drill will not just be shooting your weapon, but also learning how to march, handle weapons in a uniform way, salute officers you probably think know less than you do, and be prepared to leave your state at a moment's notice to meet a danger you may not think exists.   By the way, you won't be paid for any of this.

I wonder how much enthusiasm gun owners will have then for the 2nd Amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:57 AM

There is a brillant summary of the approach of many politicians to problems in the venerable BBC series "Yes, Minister"

1. We must do something
2. This is something
3. Therefore we must do it.

It is not really a case of introducing this law or saying 'Ohmmmm', is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:53 AM

OHMMMM

I'm on it!

OHMMMM

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:45 AM

I see a lot of anti cop rhetoric here. What's the matter, too many speeding tickets? That cop didn't give you a ticket, you earned it!

Naturally, any ex cop would have to qualify for a federal license to carry. We are not old, decrepit, blind cripples you know!
I expect there would have to be an age limit; damn few people are in the same condition I'm in at my age.

Or, we could just do nothing and all say OHMMMM real loud and hope the killing stops.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:04 AM

""I need to stop dropping into your stink hole down below.""

Feel free to stop anytime. You rarely add anything of merit, as you seem to appear only when you want to add some crap.

And I don't recall seeing any interesting posts from you above.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: Songwronger
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 10:46 PM

This seems a good idea in general. Cops carry weapons on the job, so why shouldn't they continue to afterward? But then, I've known some cops who should never have been armed in the first place. Good in theory, problematical in application.

Didn't New York state, in their anti-gun hysteria, just slap the same rules on cops that they did on the peons? Should be some lawsuits from that.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem-??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 10:24 PM

I trained on the FN-C1, too. (Never did know why it was taken out of service.) I can't and never have been able to shoot a handgun worth a darn, but I could use a rifle pretty well. It would take me a good hour to get familiar with the FN again, and as Charmion said, substantial range time. And as for

"I wish people would get it through their heads that bearing arms is not glamorous or amusing, but an onerous duty that one should be grateful to avoid.",

truer words were never spoke.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 09:45 PM

I have been out of uniform for a very long time.

Back in the day, I was more than competent with a FN-C1 service rifle, actually rather good with a Browning 9-mm pistol, and freakin' dangerous -- to myself, mostly -- with a 9-mm Sterling submachine-gun. However, if someone handed me an FN or a Browning today, I would require a long stretch of range time before I would consider myself safe to carry that weapon among people not wearing body armour and covered by the Supplementary Death Benefit.

I believe I am far more the rule than the exception.

To expect retired military and law-enforcement personnel to accept the responsibility of carrying weapons in middle and old age is to impose on them a burden of care that I, for one, would not be willing to bear. If properly implemented, it would mean requiring these folks to train and submit to fitness testing -- do you want your purblind uncle toting a gun? -- long after they have been released from active service.

I wish people would get it through their heads that bearing arms is not glamorous or amusing, but an onerous duty that one should be grateful to avoid.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 07:00 PM

You begin with a FALSE supposition...."there is a gun problem".

Next...every USA law officer I know "carries" while off-duty. There are thousands of stories.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I need to stop dropping into your stink hole down below.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 06:02 PM

When you consider the the number of alcoholics in the ranks of retired (and not-retired) cops, I'm not sure that a blanket concealed-carry ok for them is such a swift idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:40 PM

Read it and don't really see how it solves any problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:35 PM

This law is just another loophole for ex-cops to have fewer restriction on gun ownership...

Not sure how this is supposed to fix anything...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 04:54 PM

The problem stems from much deeper cultural issues. The solution to the gun problem is not thinking the gun is the solution to problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 04:35 PM

Does anybody else see the flaw in the concept of putting thousands of superannuated ex officers with failing eyesight, hearing and/or reflexes, not to mention memory, on the street as volunteer gunslingers?

I, for one, would not feel safer on thoose streets. Quite the reverse in fact.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 04:10 PM

I had, of course, read the law before I commented. On my reading, it does not (normally) affect who can carry what but only affects concealment; in the other cases it allows certain people to carry weapons even if the state decided they shouldn't. As I say, I can't how that constitutes a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 04:06 PM

Thanks for posting that BB.

What that would do is put thousands of armed unpaid officers on the streets, in theaters, grocery stores, wherever people gather.

Of course it's not a real solution, I forgot the question mark, but it would be better than what we have now, untold numbers of whackos looking to do harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 03:59 PM

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-108publ277/html/PLAW-108publ277.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 03:53 PM

gnomad,

what exaggeration???

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 03:53 PM

So read the law, then comment! I'm asking for opinions, so it doesn't matter if you are American, British or whatever. I think it's a good idea. Probably the only one Bush ever had.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: gnomad
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 03:49 PM

I would echo DMcG's comment above, and add that "the gun problem" is defined quite differently by different groups.

One lot seem to believe that every 5 year old should take weapons training, and a couple of concealed handguns when visiting the school cafeteria.
Others apparently believe that the coyote visiting Ma Olsen's chicken coop forty miles from a paved road will be deterred by a feather duster.

Until the two groups each start to at least acknowledge that the other group is not a mob of idiots hell-bent on the destruction of all civilisation (and damn commies to boot) then a solution seems well out of reach. Yes, I am aware I have exaggerated the positions, it is done to make a point.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 03:37 PM

Maybe people who'd like to comment can't locate the law you're referring to.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers_Safety_Act

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 02:35 PM

As a UKer, it's none of my business, but I don't see how in any sense it is a solution to the gun problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 02:23 PM

Kendall,

Note the date- you should KNOW anything done by Bush must be bad, just as anything done by Obama must be good. I have been told that often enough here...

Subject: RE: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 02:16 PM

I can't believe how little interest this gets!

Subject: BS: Solution to the gun problem
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:11 AM

Do some reading. check out Public law 108-277