BS: Why I am gone

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 06:56 PM

Backwoodsman. I am confused on a number of points. I don't recall reading your posts on rounding up gays? Perhaps you can point me, because my post was about Michael feeling sorry for someone who posts hatred and he knows it.

I don't occupy any moral high ground. My first marriage fucked up because I couldn't keep my dick in my trousers, I loved beer more than I should have and I'm about to enjoy a good fart. I have no moral high ground to feel smug about. I'm as normal as the next average bloke. Luckily, The NHS was still there the last time I checked?

Saying something is wrong does not mean you try and polish your halo. I don't have one. I'm a bit of a cunt according to some, a good lay according to some others and limp dicked according to a few. Luckily, since retiring twelve years ago, I have found somewhere to try and put a bit back. Seeing and supporting those working each and every day making lives better, it makes my blood boil when people spew lies like Akenhateon does to support his wish to have a list of all gay people.

Why is that I wonder? Luckily, I notice more and more on this thread are starting to ask the self same question.





Ps. Being a cunt, I have nothing to lose speaking directly to you I suppose. Holding your breath might just help push a bit of needed blood into your brain. Flush out some of the bitterness. Campaign to keep your views quiet, that would be a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 06:27 PM

"Perhaps if the person referred to was to use his energy and campaigning to help rather than hinder, the world would be just about a slightly better place."


Come on now Ian old pal, make up your mind! You've got ME confused now.

Have I to.... "campaign to help", or "just stop breathing"?

I can't do both!! :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 06:12 PM

Ok Ed...I take it that you accept that within male homosexuality there is a serious problem with sexually transmitted disease?
If you do not accept that premise as a fact, there is no point in continuing with this discussion.

If you do accept the premise, then it is surely obvious that the sexual behaviour of the demographic has a bearing on infection rates?

Whether it be the methods employed in this behaviour, or the very large number of sexual partners which are often associated with male to male sex, is as yet unclear.

I would be interested to hear your personal views on the matter under discussion, as you seem to be exceptionally good at asking questions, but rather poor at answering mine.

I also think you are being slightly disingenuous, as I can clearly remember you being involved in several previous threads on this issue; so, I am a little puzzled as to your professed ignorance of my position?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:32 PM

Ah, BWM ~~ thank you.   I asked him whom he ref'd to; it might have been you, or it might have been me. That was why I needed clarification. I am really getting a bit confused as to who is saying what to whom...

Think I'll go to bed!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 03:10 PM

My reference to the NHS is a bit of a clue too!   :-)   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 02:56 PM

Michael, I quoted in italics at the top of my post an extract from a post by Musket which took a sideswipe at me (what a sore loser that man is!), I thought that would give a clue to whom my response was directed? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 02:53 PM

Not quite clear whom BWM & GSS are addressing in their last posts.

Clarification, please?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 01:48 PM

If You dont like it.go. but do not come back to haunt us and try and put a guilt trip on the remaining members, to quote Cromwell,"You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:57 AM

OK - Thanks Kendall. I am just as guilty of sloth on many occasions :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:50 AM

Dave, I was simply being lazy when I mentioned the past few posts. They are just examples of the negativity that has invaded this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:33 AM

Ake Ok, thanks for putting to rest that you are not associated with to one of these groups. If you were, I would not see the point of continued discussion of the topic.

However - you added something else that concerns me: ""My belief is that there is something intrinsically wrong with sex between males, which is causing the yearly rise in infection rates.""

I am a bit puzzled by this statement, you say it is your "belief" rather than it is a question you have as to the reason why different groups are impacted by HIV at different rates? It is very difficult to have a discussion with one who has already established "a belief" versus one who is genuinely seeking knowledge through discussion with others with a variety of perspectives (possibly in an attempt of converting others to their beliefs).

Could it have been a error in what you posted?

Or, have you formed a firm (or, even soft) conclusion that puts it into a different dimension, a belief?

If it is the latter, (an actual belief,or conclusion) it seems unproductive for me to continue the discussion - as, I don't a valid reason to take the discussion further, as I mostly avoid trying to sway people away from their "beliefs".

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:11 AM

"Not easy when he has a few suspect apologists saying he should be getting a fair hearing."

Support for the principle of free speech does not equate to support for the opinions of everyone to whom free speech is granted. It indicates a belief that they should have the right to express those opinions, however odious they may be, and that others should have the opportunity to challenge and defeat them in open debate. The tactic of "Shut the fuck up" does not win an argument, and does not persuade one's opponent of his errors. If you aren't sufficiently intellectually equipped to understand a simple principle like that, there's little wonder that the NHS is in such a precarious state.

Suppression of free speech has long been one of the chief weapons in the armouries of those who would oppress others, and I'm astonished that one such as yourself, who claims to occupy the highest of moral high ground, would stoop to such behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:03 AM

Ed....I belong to no "group" religious or otherwise.
I base my views on the facts on HIV/AIDS, which are provided by CDC in the US and HPA in UK

I concentrate on MSM simply because they are many times more severely affected by this virus than any other demographic.

Had the most severely affected (epidemic rates) been for example, IDUs or "Sex Workers" I would be concentrating on them.
The MSM demographic is massively over represented in the HIV/AIDS statistics and that should be of concern to everyone.

Actually the rates amongst IDU's are actually quite low and those for "sex workers" slightly higher, but nothing near the rates for MSM.

My belief is that there is something intrinsically wrong with sex between males, which is causing the yearly rise in infection rates.
Do you have any ideas on the subject? You seem to have a serious interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,ED T
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 10:45 AM

I believe a return to civil discussion is in order, folks.

Ake,, I suspect you believe that those in the most danger of HIV infection (drug users, sex workers and people who engage in less then careful and unprotected sex) do not knosw they are at a high risk for infection. It also seems that you focus your attention on homosexual males (regardless of their lifestyles).

A question to you: do you have an association with any orhanized group with a ar concern? A Google search led me to a few organizations (some of them religious) whose posted information closely match some of what you post. Coincidence? Maybe. But, I leave that for you to explain - if you wish to do so (it is not compulsaryn as many here respect your rights to keep your personal associations personal. However, disclosing any such associations may clear the air on the reasons for your continued focus on this one issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 09:20 AM

Like Michael, I can make no sense of your last post.
It's just like the jargon some pen pusher would post.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 09:17 AM

Ian.....I don't gamble much these days, but I would be more than willing to stake a large wager that more people here are sickened by your foul language and abuse, than by civilised discussion of a very serious problem.

Do you really think that this subject should not be discussed, or is it just that you have no cohesive answer or alternative to the points being made?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 09:09 AM

DtG...Of course I am still in favour of compulsory testing, as at the moment, MSM seem unwilling to regulate themselves.
All the money and effort which has gone into cutting infection rates up until now, has had absolutely no effect.

If a regime of compulsory testing and contact tracing was instigated, it may just bring home to male homosexuals, the risks they take with their own lives and the lives of all their sexual partners.

When anti smoking laws were brought in it soon became socially unacceptable to smoke in public places or even in the home.
Same thing happened with drink driving....in this area people used to laugh when someone got behind the wheel under the influence....now they would report them to the police.

Sometimes people need a good shove in the right direction, the freedom of the individual to do exactly what he pleases is also socially unacceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:16 AM

Then what did you mean by "you, of all people,

I do believe I already answered that, Michael, by saying "I meant that you are, or were I understand, an intelligent person with influence in the media."

Maybe it was a peculiarly unfortunate choice of phrase. but that only goes to prove my point. There are very few people, including yourself, who have the literary skills and potential platform to swing the majority for or against a section of the population. If you had known that in a number of threads I have lambasted the press for their part in stirring up hatred you would have probably gleaned that meaning. There is no reason why you would know my views as I accept that my poor scribblings are not universally know so I apologise for that 'poor choice'. Equally I have not read everything that you have posted so I do hope you will excuse me for not knowing that you would jump to a different conclusion.

Ake - is that is will soon become socially unacceptable to refuse testing. So are you now saying that you do NOT approve of compulsory testing?

Kendall - You know I respect you and your posts. Why the 'last few' posts in particular? I have just re-read through the last half dozen and compared to earlier ones they seem to be a perfectly civilised exchange of views with no abuse therein. Am I missing something?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:08 AM

Awful lot of hints & nods'n'winks in that last post, Ian. Not clear to whom you are referring as having suddenly withdrawn; who is supposed to have apologised by implication & for what & to whom. A bit of exegesis as to your precise meaning & identifications thruout that post would be much appreciated, please.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Musket again
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 04:58 AM

You can't have a thread pondering over people who carry on reading what they don't wish to (makes you wonder what they could be doing instead) and comparing them with those who stop reading (seems logical) and not have people say things they are ashamed of after reflection. The rather abrupt stance not to carry on discussing by one regular contributor above being an excellent example.

That is a garbled way of saying I accept your apology, delivered by snapping at somone else rather than saying you made a bad judgement call defending the worm, but such an apology isn't needed. I'm not important. Those who are labelled before they open their mouths, they are the ones you should apologise to.

In the meantime, Akenhateon rolls out his diatribe and challenges people to challenge him. Not easy when he has a few suspect apologists saying he should be getting a fair hearing. Fair hearings can be distressing for those innocently opening a thread, not realising Mudcat cannot differentiate between freedom of speech and promotion of hate, or hate crime in The UK, as it happens to be.

Catch 22. I'm not willing to ignore and join the gone crowd because lack of challenge can be seen as acceptance by shallow people promoting a hateful agenda. That will never do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: kendall
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 04:13 AM

Well folks, the last few posts indicate why so many good people have left Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 07:38 PM

What do you mean Ebbie?
The infection rates in most demographics are falling, but in one demographic the rates are rising rapidly.
Does no one care about why this is the case?
Are you not even a little curious why so many mostly young men are being condemned to a life sentence of ill health?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 07:26 PM

Dave...testing and contact tracing, whether voluntary or compulsory, is of course designed to stop the spread of the virus......and to inform the person tested whether or not they are HIV positive.
It is a criminal offence to knowingly infect a partner with HIV/AIDS.

As I have said already the main thing about a testing and contact tracing regime, is that is will soon become socially unacceptable to refuse testing, if one is a member of a demographic affected at epidemic rates.

This will massively reduce the transmission of the virus.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:37 PM

Then what did you mean by "you, of all people, are happy to give credence to any policy that can only result in discrimination against an already abused minority"? Why, in particular, "of all people"?

Come now. In what other ways but my genetic origins do I differ round here from "all people"? You are either being disingenuous, Dave, or the combination of 'of all people' with 'discrimination...abused minorities' constituted a peculiarly unfortunate choice of phrase.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:02 PM

Errrr, I said or implied nothing of ethnic origins Michael. Please point out where in my post I did. I meant that you are, or were I understand, an intelligent person with influence in the media. I have never met you. I know nothing of your 'ethno-genetic origins or beliefs' and care even less. What I do care about is promoting the idea that anyone should be forced to undergo medical procedures against their will.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:47 PM

I meant to add, after "concern of yours"

and pray spare me the impertinence of knowing better than I do what obligations they lay upon me as to what opinions I am permitted to hold on any matter..

Again, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:42 PM

I have done — no more to rejoin. My points have been made, and further reiteration would be tiresome and otiose.

But I will add, DtG, that Jews, whether practising, lapsed, or converted, of which I happen to be all three, do not need or appreciate outsiders constantly harping on their origins. Antisemitism largely consists of stereotyping Jews, knowing better than they do themselves what they think and how they will/should behave. It is not welcome: kindly keep your nose out of my ethno-genetic origins or beliefs, which are absolutely no business or concern of yours. Thank you.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:52 PM

I have heard nothing from the "warriors" about any ideas they might have to lower MSM infection rates.

Yes you bloody have, but you don't hear because you don't listen because you don't want to. We can read you like a book.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:40 PM

I have heard nothing from the "warriors" about any ideas they might have to lower MSM infection rates.


There have been plenty of suggestions, including better education and a safe environment. You Ake, on the other hand, can only suggest compulsory testing of gay men with no indication whatsoever what will happen to those tested and found to be carrying the HIV virus.

How will compulsory testing help unless it is used to prevent those infected from infecting anyone else. And how would you achieve that? Stop them having sex? Isolate them? Terminate them?

Michael. I am surprised that you, of all people, are happy to give credence to any policy that can only result in discrimination against an already abused minority. Have you not learned histories lessons either?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:03 PM

The answer appears to be clear:

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/09/23/hiv-rates-reach-historic-low-in-children/
"The overall rate of HIV infections in children and adults fell significantly during the last decade, hitting a historic low in adolescents last year, according to a new report released Monday.

"About 260,000 children were affected by the AIDS-causing virus in 2012, a 52% drop since 2001, the UNAIDS report found. In addition, the combined rate in children and adults fell to 2.3 million new infections, a 33% reduction during the same time period.

"We are beginning to see true impact on the scaling of interventions over the last decade," Mitchell Warren, executive director of the AIDS Vaccine Advocacy Coalition, told MSNBC. "Frankly it's essential news because over that decade we have seen an explosion in funding and investing."

"A decade ago the world invested less than a billion dollars toward HIV prevention, but now about $16 billion is being spent.
The report cited a worldwide expansion of access to preventative treatments as a reason for the decline."



http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.DYN.AIDS.ZS

UK 0.3 - HIV rate unchanged from 2008-2012
US: 0.6 to 0.7 HIV Rate 2008-2012

My suggestion to you, ake, is to be faithful to your significant other and be sure that your SO is also faithful. Of course, both of you should be tested first.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 12:54 PM

Funny. Thought you were finding more reasons to discriminate.

I can read and so can anyone else.

Back in your hole worm.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:52 AM

I have given my views on how hiv infection amongst male homosexuals may be reduced, I have heard nothing from the "warriors" about any ideas they might have to lower MSM infection rates.

Discrimination and stigma are now almost non existent, money has been poured into the MSM demographic to fund education and promote condom use, but the rates of infection rise steadily every year.
The agencies are "hog tied" by the "equality agenda" and the people who suffer are of course homosexuals themselves.
We live in a mad world, and it's getting madder by the day.
If the current rates of infection amongst MSM, applied to heterosexuals compulsory testing and contact tracing would be brought in immediately and anyone refusing to test would be incarcerated to protect the rest of society. Human rights take second place when an epidemic of infectious disease is to be fought.

Ian, I don't like using the word "liar" on this forum and perhaps you made a genuine mistake, but Don asked me "if Hiv/Aids did not exist, would I still be opposed to "gay marriage"......I said that as far as "gay marriage" was concerned there were "other issues" to be considered and I would still be opposed.
This is totally different to what you were trying to imply.
I have always said that there are several valid arguments concerning "gay marriage" legislation.

At the moment we are discussing sexual health rates.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 09:54 AM

Dear me, Michael. Ake is no messenger. That would be like calling my postman the messenger were he the one typing the final demands he delivers. His statistics serve one purpose only for him, to reinforce his horrid bigotry. Messenger implies neutrality. I don't see any of that in his crusade.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Musket repeating
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 09:13 AM

HIV is down. It is up in clusters due to, (according to The last annual report of The Health Protection Agency) small numbers of gay men living in cluster communities. The local Government Association in their paper on the subject put this down to fear of stigmatisation in the wider integrated communities. ADASS (the association of directors of adult social services) cite this as reasoning for the difficulties in health and social care reaching out to some people in this group.

It is a huge problem and will remain so whilst ever nasty bastards publish views to say all gay men should be forced to come forward and be tested for HIV. What that would achieve other than make a list of people base on their lifestyle I do not know, as the HPA AGAIN, to quote them, feel that GU clinics are now seeing the majority of people with HIV+ status.

What part of the myriad reports can't you read properly? Perhaps the bits stating that clamydia is the number one issue? If Akenhateon is as interested in public health, why isn't he advocating his solution for young women?

Why when Don asked him what his views of gay people would be if HIV was eradicated, he said that there are other issues? What about his claim that gay marriage is a liberal plot?

My motivations? I have no fucking motivations, but I can smell evil bastards when they fart. Questioning those who question bigotry? Nice new hobby you've got. I hope you find a club of like minded fools.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 07:23 AM

Long gone!

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 07:20 AM

I repeat, Ian ~~ I find no evidence, other than the evidential urging of these statistics [which, I reiterate, you have not disputed, except to claim, erroneously as I have shown, that they are in some way atypical -- tho of what, precisely, you are far from clear], to justify your accusatory denunciation of Ake as indulging in 'hate-filled bigotry' & having a 'fascist agenda'. Perhaps you could drop your patronisingly pained tone at my asking the question, and your implied impugning for reasons unclear to me of my motives for asking it, and specify where precisely in his posts you claim to have located such manifestations; and what, precisely, you accuse him of 'hinder[ing] rather than help[ing]'.

I am sorry to say it yet again; but I continue to feel that it is your motivations, rather than Akenaton's, which are open to question.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Ian Mather
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:18 AM

What an unfortunate stain Michael.

It saddens me.

Political correctness saddens me too.

As does using the term to give respectability to hate filled bigotry.

Justice is when people are judged and treated as equal members of society, not prejudged because of their choice of lover. Deliberately using statistics out of context to further what is a fascist agenda is low, but supporting and encouraging it sinks even lower, as you are capable of rational unblinkered reasoning, and completely failed to exhibit it.

In the meantime, dealing with health issues, especially with hard to reach groups remains a challenge that real people, armed with public health intelligence strive to achieve. Ok, harder whilst hate and prejudice make contact with some people harder, but I am proud of those, some of whom I serve and give management support to, who get on with tackling, with huge successes, cluster health issues.

Perhaps if the person referred to was to use his energy and campaigning to help rather than hinder, the world would be just about a slightly better place.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:12 AM

Ake ~~ You are welcome. I value justice above political correctness.

Thank you for your kind and appreciative response.

Best

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:08 AM

I have followed these correspondences on all threads, Ian & DtG. I have differed with Ake on ones about such topics as gay marriage &c, because I haven't seen his statistics as relevant there. But, I repeat, I see no reason to question the statistics themselves, or impugn their sources. And they have been more widely applied than you assert ~~ see his response a few back to Eliza re sub-Saharan Africa. I still think you are starting from the wrong end ~~ the acute PC posture whereby anything that can be said to the apparent disadvantage of any demographic ~ racial, sexual, whevs ~ must be denounced instantly for being unquestioningly motivated by hate. I see no evidence of any such unworthy motivations in anything that Ake has written, but continue to think that your reactions to it are mere politically correct kneejerkery.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 03:51 AM

Many have provided genuine counter arguments, Michael, including Musket. Human rights, unworkable, sexual inclination based prejudice and many more. Ake simply passes them over and dogmatically repeats the stanza 'it is to stop the epidemic'. Once all reasonable arguments have failed to detract someone from an odious course of action, all that is left is a swift kick in the bollocks. Figuratively of course.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 03:04 AM

MGM....We have had or "civil" battles, but that was kind and brave of you....thank you!

Ian you are the one with the agenda....as a "medical" pen pusher you should be quite ashamed of yourself.
Most people here are unaware of the situation, you don't even have that excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:56 AM

ED...from what I have read, the LA folks were talking about setting up a voluntary register of men who have sex with men(MSM) and publicising it to make young MSM more aware of the dangers they face.
Of course "rounding up" as mentioned above would be unworkable, and is just some of Ian's obstructive rhetoric.
Once on the register it would be compulsory to test every six months.
I don't think criminalisation would have to be brought in, as it would soon become "socially unacceptable" NOT to be tested.
I would make sense to contact trace every new positive test.
Just another tool in the armoury against the epidemic.

The agencies are at last beginning to understand the gravity of the problem by proposing routine testing in designated areas, but this is a huge, time consuming operation to no real purpose as they are aware that by far the greatest rates of infection are amongst MSM.

"Routine testing in designated areas" is simply a piece of window dressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Musket gettin
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:52 AM

M.

He is not just doing what you say he is. He has an agenda. Ask him about health issues and he merely is interested in a cluster statistic in certain cities with large gay communities and his solution of making HIV testing compulsory on the mere basis of being gay, UK wide.

Ask him if he wants to add women to his list to combat clymidia and, well you ask him. I don't like to keep having to wash my hands.

Don asked him if HIV was eradicated by a single inoculation would his disdain of gay people remain? The bastard replied "There are other issues. "

Just because a respectable person such as yourself hadn't read some of his filth, doesn't make it any better.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:40 AM

I really feel it time someone objected to all this abuse of Akenaton. He seems to me simply to be trying to draw attention to a statistical conclusion which he finds of concern. He repeatedly quotes the actual statistics, which seem to be from respectable sources, but which nobody SFAICS has actually disputed. Instead, he has been cast in the role of The Messenger To Be Shot.

I do not like the implication of his statistics either; but they do give pause for thought. I do not think the 'whataboutery' to which they have been subjected in any way argumentatively convincing. I particularly think Musket's messenger-shooting, in the form of constantly rendering the penultimate syllable of his nickname as 'hate', to be, not only unwitty in the extreme, but an exceptionally cheap shot: think about it a bit more deeply, Ian -- please.

Instead of constantly abusing the man, why don't some of you try to find a few genuine counter-arguments. You are all reminding me of the ones who oh-so-predictably scream 'racism' any time the values of any ethnicity are questioned or impugned. So why not look for a few convincing arguments to replace these constant squeals of 'gayist', which add nothing to the concerning question as to whether SMS does or does not appear to show a statistical unbalance in regard to STDs?

I repeat ~~ I hate the idea that this might be the case; but accusing the person who adduces evidence ['evidence', I repeat -- not mere assertion] of being purely hate-motivated seems to me but an unworthy, vain, irrational, and counterproductive reaction.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:36 AM

To everyone...who thinks I am some sort of monster, I am talking about treating "infectious" disease, not exterminating a race, or a group.
Get a grip.

Why are you people not complaining about abortion on demand, or selection of sex of a foetus by abortion?

Where do "human rights" start and end?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 02:12 AM

Joe Offer and I don't agree on a few things, have met half way on others and agree on certain points. But we can debate.

I am not going to alter his deeply held views and I very much doubt he will ever get me to lead with my left foot. Or the right one for that matter.

But you know what? I could entertain the idea of sitting down over a bottle or four and discussing theology with him. Because he has a view. A view that inadvertently in my opinion gives inferred respectability to zealous bigots but Joe makes his disdain of them very clear.

He is a good example of why the BS section of Mudcat.org is valid as a function.

Akenhateon on the other hand doesn't give respectability to odious views, he originates and proposes odious bigotry in the first place.

Rather than a few bottles and discuss it, I could do no more than I said a few posts back. Sup up and wipe my feet on the way out.

The late wonderful Jake Thackray once said "I can't tolerate intolerance." Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 09:27 PM

Well, Bobert TIA said clearly he was leaving in the OP. Since he is no longer here, what's the point in taking that topic any more, as he is not here (I see no reason not to take his persopnal decision as he stated it)?

BTW, there have been plenty of threads and posts about why Mudcat is what some see as " not as good as before", and about disrespectful folks and posts. So, why would that line of discussion be a "new one. And not an old fight"?

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 09:15 PM

Threads have their own inherent outcomes...

I'd just like to interject that this thread was started by TIA about why she was leaving... Not about old fights...

Maybe we need a "Fight nThread" for the same ol' people who can't stay on topic...

Normal Mudcat...

If you are still reading, TIA, just know that this ol' hillbilly loves you... Sho nuff...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 09:07 PM

Oops, last one was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 09:05 PM

Ake, Let suppose, for arguments sake, that you could persuade those in power that your belief in a crisis is considerable enough to act (noting that you haven't done a very good job persuading folks here), and, that human rights issues could be ignored. Lets also imagine that you could get the health-medical community's support that mandatory intervention would make a difference, and you could get the support and cooperation of the gay community.

So, how exactly do you propose to identify the millions of gay people scatterd in every nook and cranny to enact mandatory testing on? They aren't easy to identify (they aren't black, red or purple), and they look and act mostly like you and me. I don't suspect there is a registry for the authorities to draw on to "round 'em up and bring 'em to testing" I suspect many may likely protest being tested under such human rights violations. Ignoring that, let's say you had a route to separate the gays from the straight, and had a good list - what would you do to ensure they are tested, and what would be the recourse if many, or most said "fuck off, Ake, I am not doing it"? And, what would you do with those who were tested positive, to limit the future spread? Isolating them in "homo camps" is hardly an option in today's societies (BTW, that term came from an old issue of National Lampoon magazine).

Surely you can see what you propose (while possibly well meaning) is not reasonable, nor workable.

Some people have suggested alternatives, if the issue is proven to be as serious and as focused as you claim. I am puzzled that you refuse to allow that focusing on what would work better, while not perfect, is much more reasonable and workable than what you broadly propose. What some suggested is addressing formally that a problem exists, increase education, increase awareness on how to avoid the spread, increase voluntary testing,encourage safe sex, increase research, and broaden the education and awareness to the entire community.