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BS: The Pope's Survey
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Nov 13 - 06:57 PM I believe many Catholics in the West (to get back to the thread) practise contraception, have single-sex relationships etc and try to come to terms with their consciences as best they can. So do many Muslims in the west. It isn't good to treat ones religion as a pick-and-mix menu Well I wouldn't know, but I can't help responding to this by musing that that is exactly what Joe seems to be espousing, a pick-and-mix version of Catholicism. The trouble with coming to this accommodation is that it is far more available to people in the free-thinking west than it is to the people in sub-Saharan Africa or the Philippines or in Central America, who suffer severely at the hands of the Catholic Church's authoritarianism (I gave the example of the ridiculously-high birth rate in the 80%-Catholic Philippines, the undeniable fruit of Catholic policy). I doubt that baptism does any permanent harm to those tiny babies, nor does teaching them religious traditions and taking them to church instead of leaving them home. Well, to me this reads like the thoughts of a man in denial. The symbolism, even if not contained in the lack of gravity of the ceremony, is massive. You are now in a club, at the age of a month or two, that you will not be able to escape from without, in many cases, a ton of agonising and family confrontation, let alone lingering guilt - and all because the club was fearful of letting you go. Joe, as a rational chap you should be fighting tooth and nail to stop children being baptised until they are old enough to realise the consequences. 16, 18, mebbe, or even older. Choice is a beautiful word that instils mortal fear into the Catholic hierarchy. I have no quarrel with teaching children religious traditions, in fact I'd say that a good education could not be complete without it, but that is not really what we are talking about here, is it? We're talking about telling children that myth is truth, about making them bow their heads in parroted prayers and about herding them to church. By their fruits: how come every kid can parrot the Lord's Prayer, yet hardly a one could recite the similar-length Sonnet 18, far more beautiful by any measure? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Nov 13 - 07:04 PM Authoritarian education can inflict real damage - Steve is a living example. This is bitter, uninformed, patronising, prejudiced shite which demonstrates once and for all that you're not a person who deserves even the gift of snot from one's nose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Nov 13 - 07:51 PM I gave the example of the ridiculously-high birth rate in the 80%-Catholic Philippines, the undeniable fruit of Catholic policy. So, Steve, if it is true that religion (not culture) is the cause of population excesses, is the birth rate among non-Catholics in the Philippines and Africa significantly lower? To my mind, Steve, you are obsessed with ideology. If people don't live up to your standards of right-thinking, you see them as evil. I don't buy it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Nov 13 - 08:07 PM That is just denial again, Joe. Four people in five in the Philippines are Roman Catholic. The birth rate stats relate to the whole population. But I wouldn't have selected a nation that was, say, only 50% Catholic to illustrate my point, would I? Now if you have stats to show that non-Catholics in the Philippines have a significantly lower birth rate, or whatever, well let's have 'em. 80% Catholic is a pretty good demographic to work on, I reckon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Nov 13 - 08:16 PM To my mind, Steve, you are obsessed with ideology. If people don't live up to your standards of right-thinking, you see them as evil You really are struggling here, Joe. I doubt everything I ever say and, apart from recognising the truth of evolution, :-) I have no "ideologies", nor do I have standards of right-thinking that I expect anyone else to live up to, and you bloody know it! Joe, I speak as I find and I always stay cool (gosh, how annoying is that!). I recommend the approach! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Nov 13 - 12:28 AM I didn't find a religion-based study, but here's an interesting article on the birth rate in the Philippines: http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2010/philippines.aspx The article says that "Data from the most recent Demographic and Health Survey (DHS) show total fertility rate falling from 6.0 lifetime births per woman in 1970 to 3.3 children per woman in 2006." and "The use of family planning increased from 17 percent in 1973 to 51 percent in 2008." However "The DHS results also show that the mortality rate for children under age 5 decreased from 58 deaths per 1,000 live births in 1998 to 34 deaths per 1,000 in 2008." The article says that the birth rate decreases in inverse proportion to the income level of women, so richer women have lower birth rates. The government of the Philippines has had programs promoting population growth control since 1970, and it appears that the programs (and, I would think, the change in society in general) have had a significant effect. The article says "Average fertility for Southeast Asia in 2010 is about 2.4. With its moderately high fertility, the Philippines population of 94 million is growing by 1.8 percent annually." That being said, I agree with Steve that the Catholic Church should drop its opposition to birth control - but I still don't think its position has a significant effect on population growth. Religion is only one of a wide variety of factors that affect birth rate. It seems clear to me that nations that have had a traditionally low life expectancy, have higher birth rates. I would think that when life expectancy gets longer, the birth rate might drop, but at a rate less than the rate of increase in life expectancy - which would result in an increase in population. That seems to be the case in the Philippines. -Joe- P.S. Sorry, Steve Shaw, but I find you to be myopic, rigid, and overly dramatic - not to mention insulting. It's no fun discussing anything with you, because you don't play fair. And I quote:
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Musket curious Date: 21 Nov 13 - 02:21 AM Is practicing safe sex with a hard wired sense of guilt a reasonable outcome? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Nov 13 - 05:42 AM Bullshit? Well I might have couched it more diplomatically (I try to find different ways of not having to turn the record over), but that is indeed what happens. I haven't seen any baby managing to opt out of its christening nor have I seen any faith school making its religious instruction lessons voluntary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 21 Nov 13 - 07:07 AM Steve, Authoritarian education can inflict real damage - Steve is a living example.In this world of uncertainties, one thing is certain: if someone tells you to jump, you'll jump. You may recognize the slight (!) irony in my statement, but it is just a reflection of your self-contradictory argumentation, which you do not seem to notice. Others, including Musket, do. You claim science but deliberately refuse to act to its minimal standards, in this thread and in others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Stu Date: 21 Nov 13 - 08:30 AM This thread is rapidly becoming an excellent example of why religion and the secular administration of society should remain apart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Nov 13 - 09:09 AM I'm afraid that Grishka seems not to know what "irony" means. The rest of the post is gibberish. I could just remind anyone still here that the original post in this thread started with I realize that there are people at Mudcat that seek to prevent rational discussion of religious issues because they are certain that all religion is bad and all religious people are stupid... Perhaps the throwers of brickbats here might care to reflect on that unforced piece of defensive nonsense before moaning about rational debate not being possible, etc... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: akenaton Date: 21 Nov 13 - 10:14 AM Don't think you can have "reasonable debate" about "faith". It is a belief, a belief in the triumph of goodness over evil. That does not make it bad or wrong, though it is obviously "unreasonable" Ian and some others here have a belief in equality for all under a system that encourages us to compete in the most cut throat way with our brothers and sisters, and makes money its "god". They are entitled to their belief, though it is surely as unreasonable as religious faith? Seems to me the band of "messiahs" who ridiculed believers so harshly on the other thread are falling apart. Only Steve is left to fight his corner.....Steve, you must learn from Ian, who to suck up to, and who to abuse. Don't abuse Grishka....He/she is too smart, and will take you to pieces in short order. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Nov 13 - 10:31 AM That's an amusing take on things there all right, demonstrating that you are a serial miscontruer of events. Incidentally, I don't fight corners. I don't start religion threads either. And, as for Grishka tearing me to pieces, well he or she's going to have to do better than recent, rather incoherent efforts. I suppose we all have our off-days, but I still don't find meself quaking in me boots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Nov 13 - 10:48 AM Incidentally again, I don't think what we do here is really debating faith per se. Your faith is entirely your business, just like your masturbation techniques or whether you secretly pick your nose and eat it when no-one's looking. Such matters are entirely your affair and of no concern to anyone else. That is, until you decide to go large with them and pretend that you are the owner of the truth, so much so that you attempt to disseminate it to other people (especially to children). If you, as organised religion does, tell people that there is one true God, instead of telling them that you think there is one true God but that their MMV, you are a liar! The words "in my opinion" do not occur in The Lord's Prayer, and I never heard those words said about all the "religious knowledge" I was taught at school. I know many perfectly sane and sensible people who go to Sunday Mass or to the synagogue or mosque. Some of them are good scientists, perfectly happy in their own skins. A piece of you bearing a delusion does not disqualify you from being a good human being. In fact, imperfection is what being a good human being is all about. I happen to know that Liverpool FC are the world's greatest team but I'm still OK, more or less. And I intend to continue to tell the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: akenaton Date: 21 Nov 13 - 11:11 AM I used to think Rangers were the worlds greatest football team, then they went to Berwick and got cuffed so I realised they were just another team. Anyway if you have enough money you can BUY the worlds greatest team of footballers.....isn't equality wonderful? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Stringsinger Date: 21 Nov 13 - 11:45 AM "Somebody asked me about the Pope's survey in a personal message. I realize that there are people at Mudcat that seek to prevent rational discussion of religious issues because they are certain that all religion is bad and all religious people are stupid, but nonetheless I think that this is a good thing to talk about." Joe, this is a form of proselytizing. No rational discussion of religion can be realized if you are certain that there are people on Mudcat who are in turn certain that religious people are stupid. This is a form of intimidation. Religion has a history of intimidating non-believers by using erstwhile public media for their own agenda. The Pope may be a nice guy but he represents an institution that enslaves women, prohibits birth control and contraception, and the institution chastises non-believers and ostracizes those who don't espouse their beliefs. The theory of "just wars" is a Catholic precept and establishes a rationale for war which is unjustified particularly when the Church has committed it historically. "To my mind, Steve, you are obsessed with ideology. If people don't live up to your standards of right-thinking, you see them as evil." Joe, you appear to be obsessed with Catholic ideology otherwise you wouldn't have offered this post. I am a non-believer who has never said that religious people are stupid. I have kept my remarks to the institution of religion itself, not the people who believe in it. If you profess to "hate the sin and not the sinner", then I have every right to dislike the institution rather than the people who believe in it. That's only fair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Musket. Just that. Date: 21 Nov 13 - 12:09 PM Steve was doing alright till he got to the bit about Liverpoool. Then his blind faith crept to the surface.... Of course, were he brought up a proddy, he would say the same about Everton. Had he been brought up in a rational manner, his affiliation would of course be the other side of The Pennines in S6. Up the Owls! Anyone wish to guess what the nonsense above from Akenhateon concerning equality is all about? I bet you can't guess. Being on a "What makes a good catholic" thread, it for once has relevance, even if just to show that you don't have to be religious to justify blind bigotry..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Nov 13 - 04:02 PM Come now, Frank, do you really think this is the Catholic Church? -
The basic doctrine of the Catholic Church is fairly simple, the Nicene Creed that was defined in 325 AD. That's not going to change, although it is under constant study and redefinition, and there are differing theological views of almost every article of the Creed. Every organization has basic, foundational documents that remain part of that organization's history and tradition - but most foundational documents are constantly redefined and re-understood to adapt to a changing environment. Frank, you paint a very narrow, unrealistic picture of the Catholic Church, and it's hard for me to understand why you don't know better. Take a look at the Jesuit America Magazine to see the reality of the Catholic Church, and the diversity of culture and opinion that exists there. Remember that the church elected a Jesuit as Pope the last time around, so there must be some legitimacy to the diversity of opinion expressed in this Jesuit magazine. Blind obedience to the Pope, if it ever existed, went out of style in about 1950 - it was something that Pius IX tried to impose after the Catholic Church lost the Papal States in the 1870s, and the Pope became a self-sentenced "prisoner of the Vatican." No, the Catholic Church isn't perfect - it is an ever-changing organism that exists in real life and consists of real people. It is not the rigid, intolerant monolith you describe. Churches, for the most part, are not some sort of mind-control mechanism. They're for exploring and marking and celebrating the events and the mysteries of life. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Nov 13 - 08:27 PM Birth control? Well, I don't agree with the decision that was made on birth control, it it's not a decision that was carved in stone. I don't agree with the U.S. decision not to include single payer insurance in Obamacare, either. But churches and organizations and governments are in a state of constant flux, and it's up to members to work to change the things they think need changing. And Catholics all over the world widely ignore the birth control prohibition, and the Catholic Church has no power to coerce them. In fact, that church has always taught that individual conscience overrules church law. But you and I live in democracies which occasionally openly challenge organised religion's more egregious stupidities such as bans on contraception, blatant sexism and homophobia and illiberal abortion laws. It's not healthy enough but it's a damn sight healthier than in some countries in Africa, Latin America and parts of Asia (such as the Philippines). Why, you might fear for your life there if you're gay, women are condemned to a life of servile poverty and sexual abuse, and contraception and sex education are next to impossible to obtain - with the connivance of the Church. Mother Teresa was a big help, of course, and there are a good few Mother Teresa types around. We also know that other religions hold similar sway in many non-Christian countries. Incidentally, it is inaccurate to state that the Church has always taught that conscience may overrule Church law. I mixed it big-time with Catholicism until I was around thirty years old and I never heard that any resort to contraception bar the rhythm method was other than mortal sin, or that sex could ever be intended for any purpose other than conception. I got those messages as a child and grown-up in liberated, non-Catholic England, so I'll be blowed if those same messages aren't forced over ten times more vehemently in those other countries I mentioned, in many of which religion is little more than a blunt instrument of the state. Try overriding your laws by conscience to get an abortion in Ireland, even if without one you may die. In 1978, my conscience told me that three kids was enough, so I got a vasectomy. I had mine in 1981, but in my case only after protracted agonising over it with my missus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:48 AM Well, you have a point, Steve. The mainstream of the Catholic Church is a good 30 years behind the U.S. and Western European thinking on contraception, sexism, homophobia, and abortion. Part of the problem is that to change policy in a church, you have to satisfy everybody, not just a majority. In other words, the process for policy change is different from what you would like to impose. And Steve, the primacy of conscience has always been taught in the Catholic Church - even conservative EWTN will tell you that. The fact that you didn't learn it, means maybe you didn't read enough, or didn't pay attention, or were blinded by preconceived notions that would not allow you to understand. Or maybe the only Catholics you knew were the ultra-conservative ones. The policy really makes the conservatives squirm, but it's policy - people are morally obliged to do what they truly believe is right. You claim to know a lot about the Catholic Church, but you seem to have no concept of the thinking that goes on what happens in the church. All you see is authority, and a requirement to obey authority. That, sir, is a distorted view of the reality of the Catholic Church. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Musket arbitrating Date: 22 Nov 13 - 05:07 AM It may be so Joe, in more enlightened areas of the world. But not only does strict adherence to the pulpit exist in many countries to a huge degree, including due South of you... Also, The Vatican is of the opinion that Catholics fall into two categories; those who follow instruction faithfully and those who should. It seems to an outsider, or at least an outsider with the unfortunate honour of sharing my mindset, that the Catholic Church, especially in terms of this survey, consists of progressive enlightened people trying to make their faith relevant to today's challenges and those who feel society should adapt to them instead. I reckon the latter are the ones with the keys to the executive toilet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Nov 13 - 05:47 AM But not only does strict adherence to the pulpit exist in many countries to a huge degree, including due South of you... Also, The Vatican is of the opinion that Catholics fall into two categories; those who follow instruction faithfully and those who should. Got data to prove that, Musket? I've had contact with Catholics from a huge number of Third World countries. The Catholics from the poorer countries tend to be more conservative and quite pious, but I've seen no particular evidence that there's significant authority exerted over them by church authorities. And I've also seen no evidence that the issues spoken of above (contraception, sexism, homophobia, and abortion) are frequently discussed from the pulpit in poor countries. Priests are required to speak on the scripture readings at Mass, and the readings are the same worldwide on any given day. That being said, it does seem that most third world countries may be what you would consider homophobic - but is that their religion, or their culture? Same with sexism, and with population control issues. I read the official documents. They're not as authoritarian as you might think. But yeah, there are a good many autocrats scattered among the Catholic bishops of the world. And for most matters, the buck stops at the local bishop's office, not in Rome. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 22 Nov 13 - 07:34 AM Thanks, Joe, for pointing us to that EWTN text, seeming to be a concise summary of official Catholic doctrine on ethics. The main problem is that popes and bishops are assigned a superior expertise by the mere fact of succession. ("Self-appointed", in Steve's words.) Similarly to absolute monarchy, the concept had some practical advantages in former eras, but lacks systematic justification. Theologians and clergy should study ethics, but their authority in these matters must only be derived from their reasoning. Thus they compete with other ethicists on an equal footing. This is what most people feel in modern times, including many Catholics, including many Catholic theologians when discussing inside their academic institutions - I know some in person. It is the Catholic hierarchy system that still has to go a long way, the pope now being at the first step. In congregations and classrooms, the problem is not so much official theology, but individual power. Even in "liberal" protestant churches, clergy are tempted to abuse their authority. So are other teachers, politicians, policemen, etc. It is important to emphasize that this has little to do with religion in the narrower sense, which deals with the identity of a community through history. Existing holy scriptures contain some details about ethics, derived from the moral frameworks of the times and societies in which they were written, but fortunately not lending themselves to application in modern societies. Trying to extract their essence usually leaves us with the "Golden Rule", i.e. back to zero, amounting to "A human got to do what a human got to do!" (The gold content lies in its observance.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Nov 13 - 09:44 AM That being said, it does seem that most third world countries may be what you would consider homophobic - but is that their religion, or their culture? Same with sexism, and with population control issues. Bit of the ol' Pontius Pilatism here, Joe. You can't so easily separate religion from culture, not even in secular western countries. The Church connives in these things. If you think not, show me evidence of any mainstream Church organisations that actively oppose them. Standing quietly by while these things go on, when you could have a strong protest voice, does not absolve one from all guilt. And Steve, the primacy of conscience has always been taught in the Catholic Church - even conservative EWTN will tell you that. The fact that you didn't learn it, means maybe you didn't read enough, or didn't pay attention... Well it was never clearly articulated so that we could be sure where we could or could not apply our consciences (and, er, we were impressionable teenagers, of course). Oh yes, I remember lessons in which the many kinds of conscience were analysed, and it was made perfectly clear to us that the correct kind of conscience that would permit our breaching of the Church's laws was too high a barrier for almost everyone. The conscience getout was very much on paper only. As for not reading enough or not paying attention, I did rather well at school as it happens, thanks. Largely by reading and paying attention. Stop guessing. or were blinded by preconceived notions that would not allow you to understand. Shame you have to spoil the discussion by resorting to the lame old, patronising "bitter ex-Catholic" ploy, Joe. I really can't be bothered to keep on refuting it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Nov 13 - 09:51 AM In congregations and classrooms, the problem is not so much official theology, but individual power. Even in "liberal" protestant churches, clergy are tempted to abuse their authority. Point well made. I'm just thinking how well it applied to me and the other impressionable teenagers in those "conscience" lessons I mentioned. The cassock and the fact that we had to call the bloke "Father" might have bolstered that power just a little as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Musket Date: 22 Nov 13 - 10:51 AM Your life was so different to mine Steve. We called our RE teacher "Larry Gooseneck." He once told us there was more evidence that Jesus existed than Hitler. When a lad questioned this, he hit him across the back of the head and told him to get the dictionary and look up "blasphemy" then read it out to the class. God is love and all that...... Sorry Joe, I don't have data to show that the Vatican expects people to be good Catholics and live by their rules. I assume you may have such evidence though if you look. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Nov 13 - 12:15 PM We had one called "Jug". But the guys who forced the message most ardently were often not our regular teachers, who were uninspiring to say the least, but the outside guys brought in to take the not-infrequent "retreats", which involved shelving the whole curriculum for several days in order to concentrate on our God-fearing moral side. One of these drafted-in priests told a big bunch of us fifth-form lads that we must not be tempted whilst in the bath washing our privates, which we shouldn't even look at. Instead, we were to avert our gaze upwards and think of the Virgin Mary. I did try hard, but it was always Betty Swollox's fit sister who infested me mind instead... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 22 Nov 13 - 02:06 PM I never could and still can't understand the ingrained horror of sex as an untold evil and enormous sin which is a tenet of most of the world's great religions. Violence, theft, lying, cruelty are self-evidently wicked, but why sex for goodness sake? It's perfectly natural, pleasurable and does no harm as far as I can see. I'm not including rape of course, but consensual sex is a great joy. Is it due to the self-inflicted celibacy of the teachers, monks and nuns, priests and wizened old spinsters who unfortunately have powers over the young folk in their charge? Sinister! I had a colleague who was at a boarding school run my the Sisters of Mercy. She told me they were completely Merciless, and ordered the girls never to wear shiny shoes, as 'boys might see their knickers reflected there'!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 22 Nov 13 - 02:44 PM Very easy to answer, Eliza, and it has nothing to do with religion: Most societies want to profit from fathers who are by nature highly motivated to foster their genetic offspring. Therefore they go / went at great length to discourage the other strategy of fathers, to maximize their offspring in number without further investment, leaving the raising to the mothers, cuckolds, and to society in general. The masturbation obsession seems to have started only in 18th century, when the "enlightened" medical profession discovered that inmates of lunatic asylums masturbated frequently - they had no reputation to lose - and astutely concluded that masturbating causes mental illness. Ethicists quickly adopted the notion. Most dropped it again in the 20th century, but Catholics had the idea that whatever they once pronounce as God's will must remain true forever. Similar considerations apply to homosexuality, which many people seriously believed to be caused by seduction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Musket Date: 22 Nov 13 - 02:52 PM The sad bit being, many priests enjoy sex as much as the next person, but perhaps more than the person they are abusing..... A religion based on enjoying yourself being a sin is ultimately a controlling religion. As much as I respect where Joe is coming from, at the end of the day that is the fundamental elephant in the room. Err.. Sorry Steve. Betty doesn't have a sister... Her brother was a stunt stand in for Danny La Rue if memory serves me well....... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Nov 13 - 02:57 PM Musket at 5:07 AM: The Vatican is of the opinion that Catholics fall into two categories; those who follow instruction faithfully and those who should. Joe at 5:57 AM: Got data to prove that, Musket? Musket at 10:51 AM: Sorry Joe, I don't have data to show that the Vatican expects people to be good Catholics and live by their rules. Musket, I can come up with data to prove your latter statement, but not the former. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Nov 13 - 03:28 PM Her brother was a stunt stand in for Danny La Rue if memory serves me well. Bugger... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Nov 13 - 04:18 PM Eliza speaks of the ingrained horror of sex as an untold evil and enormous sin which is a tenet of most of the world's great religions. Oh, there have been times when this has been true, Eliza - but is it true now? I can answer that - yes, it is true among some people. All of the horror stories told above are true, but are they anecdotal incidents or are they a true, complete view of religion? I think they're anecdotal. Churches have lots of members and leaders who are assholes, as do all other segments of society. I've spent my life opposing assholes in the Catholic Church. I currently have a pastor who can be a real asshole, and I take wicked delight in devising devious ways to thwart him - with some success. But my overall experience of the Catholic Church is good. I find there a good place for rich discussion, for building deep friendships, for working for social justice for the homeless and immigrants, and for expressing my faith in worship. I could wish that the management structure of the Catholic Church were otherwise, but it has its good points. The Second Vatican Council set forth "collegiality" as the basic principle of management for the Catholic Church. Decisions are supposed to be made by consultation and consensus, not by the individual fiats of autocrats or the tyranny of majority rule. Individual parishes and dioceses are supposed to have consultative councils, and the Pope himself is supposed to make decisions in consultation with all the bishops. This doesn't always work, but it does work very well in many situations in the Catholic Church. Most religious orders in the United States and Western Europe take collegiality very seriously, and they've made it word (don't know about orders in other parts of the world, but I get the impression this success is worldwide-with exceptions). I'm an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy. Our region has 700 sisters and 700 associates. We elect a regional president and a five-member governing body every three years. All the members of the region are invited to "consultation network" meetings twice a year. The sisters find their own employment and pool their resources. We associates don't take vow of poverty or chastity, so we don't participate in the pooling of resources; but we do participate in almost all other activities of the religious community. I've worked very closely with nuns from four different religious orders, and also with four different orders of priests. Most seem to be very happy, stable people who enjoy their lives very much and do excellent work - especially in serving the poor and immigrants. I think there tends to be more unhappiness among diocesan priests who live on their own, but the community life of religious orders seems to be quite healthy and fulfilling nowadays. I also know of some religious orders that are rigidly conservative and still in the "obedience" mode, and it upsets me that these neoconservative orders are the ones that are growing and recruiting large numbers of young, backward-thinking members. The older orders are relying on lay associates like me as their future. There are lots of things about the Catholic Church that upset me, and I have worked all my life to make those things better. But on the whole, I would say that I've found a way to live happily and prosper within a flawed church. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 22 Nov 13 - 06:12 PM I too have known, and made retreats with many nuns (both Protestant and Catholic) who seemed very pleasant and well-balanced. But many anecdotes are still heard about a quite different side to some priests and religious. It has to be admitted that there is a great deal of preoccupation with sex and sexual feelings as being somehow 'base' and not holy. But I did say in my last post that this occurs in most of the world's great religions, Muslims and Jews for example, and I think Grishka's point about genetic control by men is a valid one. It just seems to me that of all the 'sins' one could commit, consensual sex for mutual pleasure would be the most innocuous! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Nov 13 - 06:46 PM I dunno, Eliza - I think most of us have "a great deal of preoccupation with sex and sexual feelings," and most of us occasionally have a hard time figuring out what to do about it. I'm happily married, but I've been bothered by "crushes" off and on over the years. In the last fifty years, the Catholic Church has published reams of official documents about the sacredness and beauty and joy of sex between married persons. I think other religious groups have done the same, and I've even seen some writings in a religious context about the sacredness of sex between lovers whether married or not, whether heterosexual or homosexual - if there is fidelity between the two. I don't expect churches to approve sex outside of marriage (that's pushing the issue just a bit too far), but I think you'll find that very few churches have published much recently to condemn it. That kind of stuff is from another age, and only from conservative extremists in the current day. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: mg Date: 22 Nov 13 - 07:09 PM I wonder how many bishops will ask their parishioners to complete or respond to a survey. Also, I glanced at it but is there anything at all about the abuse situation? The criminal abuse situation? And all the US bishops met recently...was that on the agenda? Not on the public agenda for sure..does anyone know if it was on the private one? I urge everyone, whether their desire is to reform the church, defend it, explain it away, to begin their day as I do ..reading the bishop accountability abuse tracker. Read today's http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AbuseTracker/ The same sort of stuff with a new cast of characters is repeated every single day. Read about Australia. If this has gone on in first world countries ..and some is decades old but still...what is it going to be like when the spotlight is turned on Thailand? On India? Mexico? Poland? And the same system that created these unfortunately monstrous priests (and some are beyond belief in what they did) created some of us. And the idiotic beyond comprehension bishops and cardinals..at least one of the cardinals seems malevolent to me. Others just seem stupid. They are not fit to run a carwash, much less human lives. It is past time to wonder how they (we?) got this way. It is part and parcel of how we were raised...perhaps the best ones..the ones trying the hardest to be holy..are the ones who got so perveted. I am sympathetic to them...to have compulsions that are, as it has been recently pointed out to us, are or were hanging offenses in Australia. And this is not on the forsaken survey? Well I am glad there is a survey. Watch some of the US bishops skittle around and try to get out of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Nov 13 - 07:27 PM No, mg, there is no direct mention of child molestation on the UK version of the survey, the only official one I've seen. There's plenty of room for people to make comments on the matter if it's pertinent, however. In the United States, this matter was studied extensively in the late 1990s, and reforms were put in place in 2002. The matter is on the agenda of every U.S. bishops' meeting, but usually only for updates on the progress of the reforms. Similar reforms have more recently been put in place in the rest of the world. I think if you look at the dates of the offenses on the bishop-accountability.org Website, you'll see that very few offenses were committed after the year 2000 - and those were dealt with swiftly and severely by church authorities. The Catholic priest child molestation scandal is more-or-less behind us, although the consequences will linger for a long time to come. Note, by the way, that bishop-accountability.org is a lay organization established to confront Catholic bishops with the reality and scope of the scandal they were responsible for. For the most part, the bishops finally got the message and took action. But I just looked through the list of Wisconsin priests who were accused. I knew a lot of them when I was in the seminary in the 1960s, and some of them were people I liked very much. That's very troubling to me. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: akenaton Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:14 AM "I don't expect churches to approve sex outside of marriage (that's pushing the issue just a bit too far)," What you don't seem to realise Joe is that the people you debate with here, in the main, want to see the end of all forms of religion and worship science and technology instead. The boundaries will be pushed until your faith is marginalised and to propagate such ideas will be viewed as extreme "bigotry" Regarding child abuse, I have always said that the Celibacy rule" is outdated and must be removed. Priests should understand real life, the family and the problems of bringing up children in an increasingly "godless" society. Married priests...preferably with children should be the norm. The battle between religion and secularism on these pages is basically political...so keep your chin up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:45 AM Maybe so, ake, since that's where the thread is drifting, but the motivation was a discussion between Joe and another Catholic about how well the survey explores or helps the Bishop's in the declared objective of preparing for a conference. That seems to be a valid discussion. And by its nature it will take place between bishops and their congregations who are all (more of less!) practising Catholics. It may be true most people here want to see the end of all forms of religion, but that is not going to be something the bishops discuss as a goal, I would think! Now, since the conference is about the relationship of the church and the family, the question of sex outside marriage is distinctly relevant. And it comes in a wide variety of forms, some of which are distinctly less socially acceptable than others and are likely to remain so. For example, a married couple where one of them repeatedly has affairs outside the marriage is likely to remain less acceptable than long term relationships without either being interested in the formality of marriage. Whilst this is distinctly off-thread, I think the emphasis on sex outside marriage is ultimately social, not religious. A few other, small, societies have a different structure to ours, but in the main there are a host of implications for society - inheritance, lines of authority and legal responsibility, how costs are shared between society and individuals, and so forth - that are directly influenced by such things as whether a relationship is permanent or temporary, or who the parent of a child is. It is a source of constant concern to me that so few people who choose to live together rather than marry "because the don't believe in it" are unaware of the legal ramifications if one should die without clearly sorting out things like inheritance and pension rights. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,DMcG Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:46 AM That was me, DMcG, above. The Cookie Monster has struck again |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: DMcG Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:56 AM And re-reading what I said, I should have stuck to either 'so few are .. aware' or 'so many are .. unaware'. What I actually said - 'so few are .. unaware' - is naturally enough the exact opposite of what I meant. (hits forehead and shouts 'Doh!') |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Nov 13 - 06:05 AM What you don't seem to realise Joe is that the people you debate with here, in the main, want to see the end of all forms of religion and worship science and technology instead. Wild broad-brush inaccuracy aside, I need to mull over this. "I want to see the end of all forms of religion..." Really? I don't think so. The world might well be a better place without organised religion (though we'll never see it), but individuals' private beliefs are nothing to do with me. As for "worshipping science and technology", well there you go yet again with that lame old false equivalence. False because atheism is predicated on the almost certain non-existence of God. Nothing else. The worship of science and technology ("worship"??) is equally and fairly distributed among believers and atheists alike, old chap. The boundaries will be pushed until your faith is marginalised and to propagate such ideas will be viewed as extreme "bigotry" Pushed by who? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Musket being sick Date: 23 Nov 13 - 08:55 AM By me apparently. Too bloody true if your "faith" is stigmatising people on the basis of their situation. I think we are about two posts away from society's problems being the fault of "liberals" and people being forced into a gay agenda. As I have stopped letting myself be disgusted by him, I am capable of enjoying reading his outbursts. Snag is, what if you were reading Akenhateon for the first time? Not a nice prospect for unsuspecting decent people. The issues for any religious body go far deeper than trying to adapt to the times though. I suppose this Pope is trying to save his church in the western world by moving the emphasis towards being servant of his flock not master. The issue of sex outside of marriage is always going to be a thorny issue. After all, any perceived taboo element just makes the prospect more exciting for most people. In addition, opposing sex outside of marriage and not wanting gay people to be married is a bit of a double whammy. If the many gay Catholics feel they belong, the theologians need to reconcile the catch 22 which at present puts such people in a position only bigoted beasts would welcome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Nov 13 - 09:32 AM I think we are about two posts away from society's problems being the fault of "liberals" Yeah, woolly-minded, Guardian-reading, pinko, beardie-weirdie, CAMRA-supporting, sandal-wearing, guilt-ridden liberal apologists... Shit. I fit every single one of those criteria. But socks with sandals is a bridge too far. In fact, I've banned it from the new religion as of immediatement. Gotta toughen ourselves up. Where's me pipe and slippers... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Musket being sick Date: 23 Nov 13 - 10:25 AM Your pipe and slippers are stored next to my Jesus sandals and bong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Nov 13 - 11:35 AM Musket says: I think we are about two posts away from society's problems being the fault of "liberals" and people being forced into a gay agenda. I do know (and despise) one priest who blames everything he disagrees with, on a "homosexual agenda." ...but then, he is almost universally despised in the diocese. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 23 Nov 13 - 11:44 AM Whereas (being happily married) I personally would never indulge in extra-marital affairs, I don't think anyone has the right to insist on celibacy and abstinence for young people until the moment they marry. It seems to me natural that they should want to experiment with sex, and that they should not be made to feel guilty or sinful if they do so. Apparently (and Joe may perhaps put me right on this) if a young married Catholic's spouse should leave them and obtain a divorce, he/she must remain celibate for the rest of their days, as in the eyes of the Church they are still married. As long as he/she stays 'chaste' they can receive the sacraments, but they can never again have sex or remarry. This is terribly cruel and to me unacceptable. The only other way (apparently) is for the marriage to be annulled, involving a long and involved investigation and many personal, intrusive questions. I had a very nice friend at Uni, a Catholic lass aged twenty, who came to me distraught because the priest had told her she was committing a sin by kissing 'passionately' her fiance. The pleasure they both gained was condemned and she was instructed merely to hold his hand and no more until after the wedding nearly a year ahead. I was first amused and incredulous, then angry and disgusted. I found this priest's attitude to be repressed and a bit sinister to be honest. Surely this is one of the things that the Pope should address. No-one has the right to condemn safe sex between normal healthy young folk and in modern times things need to be seen in a different light. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Stringsinger Date: 23 Nov 13 - 11:54 AM The Pope represents the church who preaches misogyny, in that women are not allowed to the priesthood. It also enables the shielding of predatory pedophile priests forced into celibacy warping their view of sex. This is aside from the issue of anti-choice, and the edict against contraception. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: Stringsinger Date: 23 Nov 13 - 12:03 PM Until the Pope speaks out on these issues, his credibility will remain in question by rational people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey From: akenaton Date: 23 Nov 13 - 12:07 PM Joe... I'm a bit surprised by your last post, "homosexual agenda"? who said anything about that I agree completely with your stance on abortion, I wish I was strong enough to practice a "faith", I don't share your views on gay "marriage", but no not "despise" you for holding them. As I said, and as can be seen from these pages, the war is wholly about politics, most here, and on the "liberal" left, see the "church" as the last bastion of conservatism and will never stop ridiculing and abusing people of faith till they get what they want, a completely secular society. You appear to know the good that can be done by the church for society, yet you seem to have fallen for the "homosexual agenda" cliche to describe folks who only want to offer constructive criticism ? |
