BS: Empathy and the brain

Subject: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 10:40 AM

"Empathy allows us to feel the emotions of others, to identify and understand their feelings and motives and see things from their perspective. How we generate empathy remains a subject of intense debate in cognitive science.

Some scientists now believe they may have finally discovered its root. We're all essentially mind readers, they say.

The idea has been slow to gain acceptance, but evidence is mountiing."

a href="http://www.livescience.com/220-scientists-read-minds.html">Science - why some have it, others not 

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 10:43 AM

Science - why some have it, others not 

Let s try it again

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 11:08 AM

Interesting.

Are sociopaths unable to interpret mirror neuron input fully?

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 11:26 AM

I have certainly experienced mental telepathy (verified)
So I am sure that primitive man was fully equipped with a large number of "senses", which are gradually being lost as we become more "civilised"

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 12:00 PM

It's hard to wrap one's head around the concept/claim of mental telepathy but I had one experience which precludes me from denying it's possible existence.

I was sat upon a large fallen log way back in the woods waiting on partridge, about 50 miles from my city. I looked at my watch and it was 5PM. A sudden, overwhelming sensation came over me and my head spun in the direction of home. I heard her. I said aloud, "J*** needs me.", immediately rose and did not travel by road but ran as fast as possible through the woods directly toward my truck. I raced all the way home, changed and went to the hospital. It was her. I won't give you the details, except to say she was okay but, at the moment when I heard her, in extreme pain.

I am having a hard time to type this. I am actually trembling from the vivid recollection.

Proof? No. But there it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 12:11 PM

I've had a few 'similar type' experiences, gnu. It's hard to document, but we know the experiences happened and in the end, that is what really matters. BM

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 12:44 PM

intuition 

An interesting interview on intuition with Laura Day

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM

> in the end, that is what really matters.

To the experiencer.

But what really matters to the rest of us is whether more than coincidence was involved.

Not scoffing, mind you. Just observing.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 01:22 PM

I agree, Lighter.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 03:04 PM

No coincidence in my case Lighter, it was verified by a third party.
I have had several similar experiences.
gnu....what I'm talking about was very similar to your experience, I certainly believe you and believe there are powers in the mind which have never been explained.

As I said, my opinion is that it harks back to a time when these powers were needed for survival
I also believe that animals have powers of intuition, as well as heightened powers of sight, smell, hearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 03:08 PM

I agree too, Lighter. But, what happened to me was real. All I can ask for is the benfit of the doubt. It could not have been mere coincidence. I have had other similar experiences but they were mild in comparison. What I describe above was heart wrenching in more ways than one but I will not discuss the details.

Hmmmm... maybe an example of one I dismissed. I could not get to sleep. I had no idea why. For over an hour. Then, I knew someone was in the room. I sat up and there was my father who was dead for exactly one year. He said, "Thank you. You are a good son." in reference to something he asked me to do and he vanished. Surely one would dismiss that as a dream, as a subconcious wish created in my brain? I certainly did, in time. But the instance I spoke to above? No. That was real. It happened. I was there. That was no dream.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 03:13 PM

The article says.."... we practically are in another person's mind."

Fascinating article and discoveries... but..(you knew I'd have a 'but', hmm?)...but it amounts to equivocation on the term 'mind reading'.

It may well be that certain areas of the brain process data about the behavior of others and compare it to our own... and it may be that lacking certain structures make it difficult to DO this comparison, leading to a lack of what we call empathy........but using that to imply a proof of genuine "mental telepathy" is a stretch.

We compare our behavior with that of others constantly... that is part of what children do to 'grow up'. I am sure that most people are not lying about 'experiences' of supposed mind reading, but verification requires more than relating interesting stories and making assumptions. (It would be nice to have testable theory about the mechanism for such experiences)

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 03:42 PM

I totally agree, Bill D.

Having said that, do I believe there is a possibily of what I experienced? Of course. Do I believe there are "mind readers"? No.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:08 PM

Journalists, including science journalists, will go for the colorful cliche' whenever they can in order to keep the dry science interesting and understandable.

Obviously no "reading" of minds is implied in the article, regardless of the attention-grabbers used.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:11 PM

To be clear, I don't believe in mind readers either.That considered,
that side issue does not deminish the main concepts brought forward in the link in the op.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:58 PM

Well, like gnu, I don't want to go into details, but I told someone what I was thinking, couldn't sleep etc....just like gnu,

Within 2 hrs my thoughts were verified through an horrific accident.
All witnessed by a third party.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 05:18 PM

Personally, I'm more inspired by the questions than the answers. I don't know why some things happen, but I'm sure they do, and I'm sure all sorts of people will keep trying to find explanations. I think it probably comes down to butterfly wings. Things too small for us to notice can add up to something that looks like magic.

I used to love the TV show "Touch". At least for most of the first season, until it fell into the trap many shows do of sacrificing the small, interesting, but not-so-important things in favor of the usual plot of having some ultra bad guy or bad guy organization trying to do away with the main character. It went from being something really special to being another dumb show. But it HAD been all about the connections, and about a kid who could see them.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:05 PM

"Some scientists now believe they may have finally discovered its root. We're all essentially mind readers, they say."

I guess the key word is "essentially" I doubt that the experiment describe can fairly be described as mind reading. I have my doubts about "empathy." The monkeys are observing and picking up on physical cues. If a human watched an animated film of someone grasping a peanut, I think the same area of the brain would light up. I'm very confident it works that way with porn. I think not. Are you reading the mind of a cartoon? doe you feel empathy for the animated mouse? Maybe but it is just a response to visual and auditory cues. The part about the autistic made me think of this. Autism spectrum includes attention deficit problems does it not? Could it be that the problems that autistic have in reading emotions are related to them not paying attention to visual cues?

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:19 PM

Is empathy a learned behaviour, or something different - possibly related to some ancient social benefit related to survival? I suspect it is an imoprtant aspect of being a part of the human society that we could benefit from understanding? Finding out where it lies in the brain may lead to a better understand of those who don't have it, those who lose it and those who may be on the extreme end of the scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:19 PM

I've been aware of the research on 'mirror neurons' for quite a few years. No scientist makes the claim that it has anything to do with 'mind reading'.   Rather, what it is, is something in our own mind that becomes stimulated by somebody elses' activity.

For the most part I agree with Jack----but I think it is genuinely the 'roots' of empathy, and some people have this to a greater degree than others.

And I think Lighter is right on about the media. Always suspicious of the way research findings are reported by the mass media.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:40 PM

additional information 

Some additional information on thecsite above.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 07:31 PM

Empathy, in and of itself, is felt by all cognizant creatures. A mother's "love" for her offspring and vice versa, is universal (an arguable term). I was speaking to mental telepathy as I understand it.

In any case, some of you know what I am trying to say and some of you don't. Therefore, my further participation in this thread doesn't matter. >;-)

Besides, I 'know' the damn snowplow just plowed my driveway shut and no mental telepathy was required. It was all premonition and the fact that I heard the plow.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 07:39 PM

I trust the snow plow operator holds this "all-creature-empathy" (learned through mirror neurons, or not) for you and the plight of your driveway, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 08:26 PM

Ya ever see the 22 Minutes snowplough bit, Ed? Love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 08:48 PM

Never saw it, gnu. But, will look for it online.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Janie
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 09:14 PM

There are loads of interesting research out there. The neurosciences are in their infancy. I'm an old fart of a psychotherapist who often has trouble understanding or keeping up, but it is all very exciting and provocative.

re your post above, Ed T. Is empathy a learned behaviour, or something different - possibly related to some ancient social benefit related to survival?

My limited understanding of the research possible thus far indicates that biology shapes learning and that learning, i.e. experiences, mutually shape how the particular biology of an individual develops - particularly both the biological development of the brain and the neural pathways that develop (or don't).

One of the reasons for the success of us humans has been our tremendous diversity among individuals of our species in expressing the attributes along a continuum that at one end is "all about me" and on the other "all about us." Actually, several continuums (I don't know the plural of continuum and am too lazy to google the answer.)

The potential for any attribute, it seems to me, is likely to be genetically (evolutionarily) based. Our individual genomes can be understood - at least that is what I happen to think right now - as representing many, many possibilities for how they might be expressed individually. Experience, nurture, social learning which in some ways can be synonyms - can and apparently often do have significant influence on what attributes are likely to get more strongly expressed in an individual. But the genetics of each individual also influence what is learned from experience, nurture, social learning. Hence the diversity and variability.

Now that the globe is so crowded, will be interesting to see how it plays out for us as a species from an evolutionary perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Janie
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 09:36 PM

> in the end, that is what really matters.

To the experiencer.

Yes!

gnu and Ake (and any others), take Lightner at his word.

We all have very personal experiences. We all strive to make "sense" of those experiences. To make meaning, find meaning, or some combination thereof. As long as the sense or meaning one makes of an experience does not stem or result in "being mean" to oneself or to others, go with whatever conclusion at which you arrive, go with the mystery and wondering if you arrive at an ambivalent or paradoxical space - go with what works for you when it comes to what you make of those intensely personal experiences.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 03:09 AM

What Janie said.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 05:10 AM

Interesting, and well put, perspectives, Janie. Also, good advise on gnu's and others experiences, possibly such experiences will be better understood in the future as research progresses - and who can accurately predict where that will lead.

On one hand what makes us up is clearly our shared and individual genetic make-up on the other is our unique mix of experiences - and many (though not all) contend, to a varied degree, a third relates more closely to the yet unknown. What we are lies somewhere in that delicate mix. Fortunately, research is giving a greater understanding, though there is much more to be learned. My experiences, (and possibly my genetic make up) leaves my mind "open" to all types of new information from future research on all three aspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 08:35 AM

A young man I used to meet every day in the 1950s [he was assistant manager in the hotel near Gloucester Road where my mother was director & where I lived when in London] had a disconcerting habit of saying suddenly, "You know a man who...", followed by a very close and accurate description of someone whom one knew, and he didn't, and couldn't. One of them for instance, was my closest friend at Cambridge where I was studying at the time, who lived in Bradford. When one replied, "Yes, I know him", he would reply, "He was
standing behind you just now".

Worked every time. On one occasion, I remember saying, "No, I don't know anyone like that. You've missed out this time, Norman."   He said, "OK, just leave it for a while". Several days later, in the middle of a conversation on quite another topic, he suddenly exclaimed "Look around you next time you have your hair cut.... Now, what on earth made me say that?" "Because," I replied, "that man you described so exactly the other day that I couldn't identify is my barber by South Kensington Station. You don't think of your barber between haircuts, do you?"

I contributed this story to Rupert Sheldrake when I read some of his books on telepathy and "morphic resonances" about 10 years ago; he replied that he found it of much interest and would keep it on file.

Sheldrake's work is much relevant to this thread: as, It seems to me, are my recollections of my mother's assistant manager, Norman Robinson.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 10:23 AM

I'm a word person, and I see in this thread (so far) what I think is a confusion of several expressions. I think it worthwhile, in the interest of clarity, to take some of the language apart, and then to examine the various concepts that apply to Gnu's experience.

The term "mental telepathy" has been thrown around. What other kind(s) of telepathy are there? I think the word "mental" is excess, or redundant; "telepathy" means the same thing.

The term "mind reading" is often used as if it were the one-to-one equivalent of "telepathy". To me, "mind reading" connotes an individual's (the mind reader's) purposefully picking up details of another's (the target's) experience, emotions, or knowledge, either with the knowledgeable cooperation of the target person or even despite resistance by the target. "Mind reading" in some descriptions may be known to the target when (if) it happens or not known.

Gnu's described experience, on the other hand, seems not to have been purposeful on his part, but rather a passive reception of some sort of a signal, forming his concept that "J*** needs me." What sort of signal might it have been? Taking this at face value, J***, aware of some accident or physiological change, might have generated some sort of mental or emotional wave signalling the emergency, to which Gnu resonated and responded as he described.

Another scenario might be that some other person (e.g. EMT, physician, nurse) at the accident scene or sickbed, wherever it was, might have served as a mental source for what Gnu felt. To me, this seems unconvincing, although conceivable.

I suppose yet another scenario might be Gnu's more direct sensing of the accident(if that's what it was) or physiological development, not involving J***'s conscious or unconscious "sending" of anything. This would not be an instance of either telepathy or mind reading, but a sort of remote sensing or remote seeing without Gnu's volition. This is much less convincing to me than a telepathic explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 10:36 AM

If some people have these mirror neurons, while others are a bit deficient in that department, does this mean that unfeeling, sociopathic personalities can be exonerated because they were born that way? And conversely, are those well-endowed with the special neurons, and therefore empathetic and responsive to others' needs, not in any way praiseworthy, just using what nature gave them? (My answer to these questions would actually be 'yes'!)
I agree with Dave above, telepathy if it exists, can take place without the presence of the other person. But empathy requires observance of tiny subliminal clues giving rise to some kind of imagination of how the person is feeling.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 11:10 AM

I have heard that people who are emotionally close, like mother/father/ child relationships, can "make contact" if one or the other is under severe emotional stress?

This is certainly what happened in my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 11:21 AM

"... does this mean that unfeeling, sociopathic personalities can be exonerated because they were born that way?"

If exonerated means 'allowed to keep inflicting trouble in society', then I disagree. We all have the experience of behaving badly, then 'repenting' and changing our behavior, if only in minor ways.

If someone causes trouble in 'major' ways, this still needs to be controlled in some way. There is a phrase for doing this to someone who seemingly cannot control himself... "punishment without prejudice".... that is, "we see no other way to protect ourselves, no matter what the cause of his flaws." The details vary.

This is a HIGHLY debatable topic, leading to complex opinions about capital punishment... etc. It is not easy to work out.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 11:45 AM

Eliza said, in part:

I agree with Dave above, telepathy if it exists, can take place without the presence of the other person.

Assuming that I am the Dave referred to, I did not say that.

Of course one needs "a recipient mind", like Gnu in his incident; otherwise you have no event.

But my last scenario, the remote seeing or remote sensing of the emergency event, does not require "the other person" as "a sender". If it exists, it seems to me sort of a supernatural or spiritual concept, rather than telepathy or empathy. I TEND to categorically reject senderless remote perception. I can't make an absolute statement that it cannot exist, although I'd like to do that. Proving that negative is way beyond my logical powers.

Either telepathy (if it exists) or empathy require what I'll call "a sender"--J*** or an EMT, etc. in Gnu's case.


Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 12:33 PM

"Either telepathy or empathy require what I'll call "a sender"--J*** or an EMT, etc. in Gnu's case."

Analysis of gnu's experience is problematic because it is practically impossible to verify experimentally.

Who is going to volunteer to go off into the woods to see if they get a "feeling" when their loved one are injured? Combine that with the likelihood of loved ones willing to volunteer to be injured for the sake of an experiment and you have a very small group of possible experimental subjects.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 07:24 PM

It can't be proved Jack, because it is presently beyond science.

But it does happen.....why should anyone lie.
My experience was verified by my wife because I told her almost exactly what was happening, at almost exactly the time it happened and it involved the tragic death of someone very close to me.
In fact two people, one killed and the other subjected to an extended period of terror and emotional stress.

I put it down to primitive senses, others may say it is supernatural.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 07:41 PM

Its impossible to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 07:54 PM

""Analysis of gnu's experience is problematic because it is practically impossible to verify experimentally. ""
Curious:
Why does a personal experience shared by someone need to be analysed?

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 08:50 PM

The importance of the issue is that, IF 'some' humans do have these unusual experiences and can do stuff others cannot, it could be very valuable to know why, and to use the data/ability for the 'greater good'. I am a science fiction fan, and would LOVE to know that telepathy and precognition and telekinesis... etc... are genuine, even if not by me.
Anecdotes are fascinating, but sorting true anecdotes from 'just stories' is hard. Replicibility under controlled conditions would be wonderful.

I was just reading today an article by Stephen J. Gould about 'continental drift', and how it was flatly denied for decades because no one could imagine the mechanism by which it could occur. Once a new theory was developed, along with new science, that explained how even old data supported it, everyone was suddenly on board!
We need SOME idea how telepathy might work. that is, something that can be measured... not just language about "I felt it".

One has the experience one has... and I would never doubt they had it, but base cause is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 01:20 AM

Agreed, Bill. Jack's "impossible to know" requires the rider "at present". But there is presumably a physical cause for these oft-observed phenomena without any need to invoke any sort of supernatural, or whatever, element, which will be identified some time in the future. Is any reputable group or foundation currently working on it, does anyone know?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 09:42 AM

Jack the Sailor:

"Analysis of gnu's experience is problematic because it is practically impossible to verify experimentally."

If you reread the fourth paragraph of my first post, you'll see that I stated plainly, "taking this at face value". In neither of my posts did I endorse or deny the reality of what Gnu told us; as I stated, I was dealing only with the various concepts.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 10:16 AM

MtheGM, I don't forsee the day when experimental testing of Gnu's experience will be possible, that's what I meant by practically impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 10:42 AM

It is valuable to remember that there are many instances of emergencies, deaths, and various 'intense' events that happen to friends & loved ones that we do NOT have any inkling of until informed later. It seems that the 'knowing', if it actually does happen, is not automatic or predictable.
   If it happened regularly or someone could reliably demonstrate it under controlled conditions, I submit that it very well might be tested and/or measured experimentally. If one brain/mind can 'send' a.... whatever... to another, that 'whatever' ought to be detectable. We DO detect brain waves and measure electrical activity, and progress is being made for quadriplegics to do things like operate computers by 'mind power'. Who knows what will come next?

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 11:05 AM

Yes you're right Jack, testing would never work. I think there has to be real "stress" involved and a very strong emotional attachment between the people involved
The conditions required for testing could never be replicated.

When people are under extreme stress, like facing death or serious injury, I believe their mind cries out for help....I know that's an over-simplification, but its how I feel about this phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 11:07 AM

I suppose "prayer" works in that way also.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 11:20 AM

Yes you're right Jack, testing would never work. I think there has to be real "stress" involved and a very strong emotional attachment between the people involved.

Yes and isolation of the "receiving" subject from conventional forms of communication and removal of observational bias and influence. Knowing that a "scientist" is going to hit your loved one at a random time is hardly the same as them having an accidental injury which you cannot have observed.

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 11:21 AM

I don't understand what ' "prayer" ' means. Why the quotes?

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 11:32 AM

I've never seen "Empathy and the Brain" but I have watched "Pinky and the Brain" and I sincerely recommend it over this thread.........

BRAIN: He's about to engage the machine!
PINKY: I didn't know they were even going steady!

Much more fun and a higher degree of intelligence than this thread.



Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Empathy and the brain
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 11:40 AM

None of these 'knowings' that people are referring to quite resembles the different sort of telepathy demonstrated by my friend Norman 60 years ago, as related in my post above of 23 jan 0835. They might require some different sort of neurological base, or might employ similar quasi-perceptions [if that is the exact term I want]. I can't see why, if there is any physical base or cause involved in these phenomena -- and what other sort could there be? --, some of you seem to regard it as so utterly impossible that it could ever be isolated or identified. What a counsel of despair. Learning and progress do not proceed along such pessimistic paths. I ask again: does anyone know of any respectable academic research into such questions currently ongoing. Sheldrake can surely not be the only academic interested in the matter.

~M~