BS: scottish independence

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 02:46 AM

Watching Jim Sillers on Sky News sums up the Scottish error: anyone who disagrees with him, even the interviewer, is rude and ill-mannered. He is entirely egotistical and thinks the sun shines out of his arsehole. When his time ran out, he was sarcastic, thinking he had a divine right to spout nonsense until the cows came home. He utterly failed to realise that it's a two-way street, that a company has as much right to say no, I won't deal with you, as he has to choose to walk away himself.

It's the Scotish problem writ small. Scotland doesn't have the couraage to issue its own currency, so tells England it wants to keep on sponging off it despite being told by the Chancellor and Governor of the Bank, NO. It tells the EU it is going to continue being a member, when it isn't and doesn't qualify because it isn't prepared to take on the Euro/ It tells NATO the same, when it doesn't have ther income to qualify.

Where's the money going to come from when all the business leaves? Wake up and smell the coffee, once again you're in the hands of another Sir William Paterson, an ill-advised fool leading the Scottish nation over the edge of the cliff in the Darien Scheme, all promises and no effective ways of making them happen.

With no business, where's all the taxes, the money you need to have coming in to be able to spend it on the pensions for starters, going to come from? Or the wages, or - well, the list is long. Once again, you've fallen into the hands of insane mountebanks.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 03:07 AM

NATO says fine. But you keep the strategically placed nuclear subs.

I can understand the idea of simple folk who like to blame everybody else for their own failures seeing that from their perspective, you may as well vote yes because the only way is up when you are at the bottom. But the same people don't have any concept of how far from the bottom they really are.

You just have to see Mudcat's resident homophobe in bed, as it were , with the political champion of gay rights to see how surreal the yes camp are in their reasoning. They push the ideals of one particular party and say this is what independence would look like? Independent from what?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: JHW
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 04:48 AM

I'm all for letting the Scots vote how they wish.
No pressure, no scares, no this will or won't happen or work. Just let them decide and live with it.
And no wingeing or 'told you so' after, whichever way it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 06:14 AM

It appears to me that this is principally about mational pride and a sense of nationhood, both of which the Scots already have in spades. In terms of government, they already control most matters, including the NHS which Salmond claims is under such threat from Westminster. The impression is being given that this is simply a re-badging exercise, with nothing much changing except Scotland's legal status, everything else will be business as usual. However that's not true. Separation will tear down all the structures which currently underpin Scottish prosperity. They will have to be built up from scratch, and more importantly paid for.

Scotland will inevitably remain economically tied to its larger neighbour, but will have lost all influence over it. If it succeeds in joining the EU (still a big if) it will cede much control to Brussels. Is that independence?

I understand the emotional case. I describe myself as 'British' but I feel 'English', and I understand why Scots have such a sense of their own identity. However whenever I visit Scotland I am left in no doubt of that. Would independence increase that sense of identity?

Scotland already runs 90% of its own affairs. What is so important about the remaining few matters which aren't already devolved? Could an independent Scottish government actually deliver on these? It strikes me odd that a supposedly socialist country doesn't understand that 'unity is strength'.

It's an emotional argument against a logical one, so they're never going to come together. The 'Yes' responses to the logical claims are either 'we don't believe you' or 'we don't care'. Perhaps that's enough to build a new state with. If the vote is "Yes", I sincerely hope it is.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 06:23 AM

Willing to live with it?

Fine if it didn't affect you. But already, even before any outcome, the markets are down, investors are looking elsewhere and the largest single source of UK GDP is very concerned that this lunacy might just go ahead. Anyone booking their holidays for next year abroad will find prices have gone up over the last two weeks as the pound loses value (and influence.). Anyone living on state benefits will soon learn where the treasury will look to make the required savings..

Don't worry. The government can always cut pensions, cut benefits and let inflation creep up to make up the deficit. (Tory led government, remember?)

It's alright shouting eat the rich and investors can go to hell but don't scratch your head too much when the government (both North and South) cannot afford social infrastructure at the level people are accustomed to.

Now some home truths are at last materialising, we can see that this affects The UK, not just the 10% voting in it. If Salmond seriously thinks the period of negotiation means him getting half what he promises, the other 90% will have to be asked if they are willing to have their lives affected so. You could fund The NHS for ten years with what the price of rearranging absolutely everything from currency to assets will cost.

Ed Milliband got it right for once when he said no UK minister can negotiate away the legitimate interest of the people in favour of foreign interest. It isn't a vote to affect you for the next four years, it is a once only deal and only delivers uncertainty.

Meanwhile, Salmond is quietly tying the SNP day to day policies into the vote so he can say that whoever governs Scotland, some SNP policies are enshrined in constitutional law.

Fucking scary if you ask me. Not to mention undemocratic.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 09:37 AM

Scotland already runs 90% of its own affairs. What is so important about the remaining few matters which aren't already devolved?

Taxation, military spending, social security, foreign policy. I'd say that was a bit more than 10%.

The Bedroom Tax alone shows what the Cameron/Clegg/Farage/Miliband clique want to do to Scotland if they get the chance.

Question for the NO-sayers. Would you advocate abolishing the UK Parliament and having everything it currently decides put in the hands of the EU? If not, what is the difference?

The only relevant difference I can see that the UK government is likely to be run on behalf of the US by a bunch of loony overprivileged right-wing sectarians for the foreseeable future, so it's obvious why a loony right-wing pro-American xenophobe would see a difference. For the rest of us it's equally obvious that having no vote at all and having everything decided by a colonial administration in Paris or Berlin would be an improvement on the status quo.

The most convincing piece of propaganda I've seen from the YES side is a sticker saying "Vote Yes and end Tory rule forever". There'll be a lot of folks the other side of the border wishing they had a way to sign up to that.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Over the bar
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 04:19 PM

WHat is ENland going to do about the cannon fodder?, if SCotland says yes.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,h
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:32 PM

In all wars the politicans should be forced to take to the front line with their families in close support---how many illegal wars would we have then Mr Blair? and you too Mr Cameron, who has, today, stated that he cannot rule out going to war in Syria/Iraq.
Is it little wonder thinking people wish to be quit of a regime which has opened up such a can of worms with their illegal acts.
At least a YES vote would give us the opportunity to oppose, with more chance of success, such people. It is of course the people who are sovereign in Scotland unlike England where the Crown stll reigns supreme backing the landed/wealth interest to the hilt.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:37 PM

Just watching Last Night of the Proms... In fact, got a few friends round for it and having a cracking good night.

Cameras cut to those watching and listening on big screens in Belfast and Swansea. Nothing in Och Aye the Noo Land though.

Are you really going to swop Pomp & Circumstance and Jerusalem for Donald Where's Your Troosers?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 05:55 PM

pity we've lost the Ian Paisley thread on the very day the orangemen are parading through Edinburgh.....

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 06:03 PM

I once saw a wonderful cartoon of the pied piper playing his flute, being faithfully followed around by old bastards in orange sashes...

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 07:49 PM

"Has the potential new interim governing body (or the "yes, lets separate" proponents) put forward a strategy to deal with the potential economic impact of starting a new government and economy - while starting out with a debt and likely significant deficit?"

It would seem that they have not!

There is online an analysis of Scotland's options absent Salmond's claimed currency union with rUK.

It suggests, based on the countries with population and GDP closest to Scotland, that the best case scenario is that Scotland would have to float a debt burden of more than 50% of GDP to support its independent currency alone, while that would increase significantly if start up costs were factored in.

The Scots economy would of necessity have to borrow massively, or be in a position where a run on its currency would mean bankruptcy.

And of course, if Salmond's plan to hold Scotland's share of UK debt to ransom in an attempt to force currency union ends in repudiation of the debt, this will be regarded worldwide as defaulting on commitment.

What price borrowing then?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Scabby Douglas
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 07:55 PM

I was at the Glasgow Proms In The Park concert. None of the Pomp and Circumstance section was shown on the big screens on Glasgow Green. The BBC learned a fair few years ago not to cut to Glasgow (or any place in Scotland for any of "Jerusalem". Similarly, I think "Rule Britannia" could have been tricky....

The stuff we got instead was very enjoyable....

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 Sep 14 - 08:08 PM

One of the things I find really annoying about the British is that they seem to have decided that English men and women from the home counties are the only people who matter and everyone else is a joke. I'm not surprised a few of the everyone else are getting fed up.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 04:16 AM

Are you sure about that LadyJean?

You see "the British " describes 68 million people, 10% of whom are in Scotland and the majority of the rest have little in common with the Home Counties as you put it. Even a huge number of those who live there.

Sweeping condemnation of people who don't fit your particular bill is neither helpful nor accurate.

Leave that nonsense to Salmond and his personal mission to screw up a country that is trying to recover from err.. following idealistic dreams of low intelligence politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: selby
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 05:06 AM

Why does Mr Salmond never give robust replies to the issues being raised. Surely he cannot continue to kid people that it is all a plot and personal against Scotland. There is also the issue of Scotish Elections does he think that the SNP is elected for life or is that something that will be made law if the Yes vote win. My Father used to say when elections came and the Party he wanted to win lost "empty heads voted them in but empty stomachs will vote them out"seems to me to be relevant at this point. We where in Edinburgh last year to witness a young man in a kilt with the flag painted on his face shouting at someone you can take my country but you cannot take my soul methinks to many of them have been watching a Hollywood film made and starring a Australian actor and have lost the plot. All the north has suffered while the south has flourished I suspect the south west and wales will say the same a lot of young people from these areas with degrees can only get work in London investment in the north is nil but Scotland gets more titbits from the London table than the north does. My only hope is that whatever happens the Scots People will be happy with the Majority want as there is no going back in four years time this is for life and their children's children
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 05:40 AM

ladyjean has a point. the governance of Britain has always been a bloody mess.

Scottish independence got its biggest push by the Thatcher government   - so many callous decisions. but it didn't stop there, and that's why if they're wise Scotland will take over their own affairs -whatever the immediate problems. the tory government has all its support in the south east and most of the marginal seats are there - so that's labour fucked - and there lies the problem Musket.

sadly i can't agree with you. whether independence is the answer - i don't know. but it will be a reaction born out of the realisation of many Scottish people of how desperate the situation is.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 06:36 AM

That's more or less spot on, Al.
Tony Blair made Labour 'Tory light' leaving Scotland with no choice but turn to the SNP

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 09:28 AM

Whereas a smaller Scotland with less oil assets than many third world countries and uncertainty as to currency and banks could make a better go of it?

The devolution Max would be the best solution as nationalism is just another word for bigotry whereas pragmatism might just put food on the table. Cameron refused to offer that though as he felt he could keep the union. The third way would have been best all round and would have got a resounding majority.

You can't blame the blue rinse brigade Al. Labour offers them fuck all in the same way Conservative don't understand an idealised "Oop North."

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 14 Sep 14 - 11:36 AM

Oh, they've already cornered the market in curling stones. Somebody forgot to tell Salmond that women use tongs.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 03:28 AM

"The Bedroom Tax alone shows what the Cameron/Clegg/Farage/Miliband clique want to do to Scotland if they get the chance." -Jack Campin

What "Bedroom Tax" are you talking about Jack? Could you please explain it to me - I ask because I have unoccupied spare bedrooms and I am not paying a penny on any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 04:04 AM

Now Brenda's getting involved. She really ought to keep her overprivileged mouth shut on political issues.

The parcel of rogues lining up to endorse the union is enough to make the most hardened voter want to vote yes I imagine. If I had people like Farage, Cameron, Clegg, Campbell etc telling me we're better together I'd be off like a shot. Can't they see they're part of the problem?

The fact they can't make a coherent, passionate case for the union says it all; the union was fine for managing empire, but it's caved under pressure from stateless multinationals (see the TTIP deal that's about to erode our sovereignty further) and now is not fit for purpose. If we had a federation of home nations, each nation having devolved powers and it's own First Minister (with the English parliament situate outside London's reality distortion field) then that would be progress.

C'mon Scotland. Vote yes.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 08:37 AM

Considering how high passions are running, and how many people both inside and outside Scotland are engaged in the debate, the reluctance of both sides to engage with the difficult issues is disappointing.

The "Yes" side has seemed reluctant to admit that independence means separation - not just from Westminster but from everything else. In many cases that will have significant effects and significant costs. The "Yes"es response has been to accuse anyone who points this out as either liars or bullies. It may be possible to mitigate these effects if both sides can negotiate ways of dealing with them, but the assurance that everyone will simply accept whatever Scotland demands, on the pound and EU membership for example, when those who will decide have said categorically they will not, is simply delusional.

The "No" campaign has been dire. The Union is probably not going to set Scottish pulses racing the way Scotland the Brave and Braveheart can, but the "No"'s message seems to come from Hilaire Belloc: "Always keep a-hold of Nurse, for fear of finding something worse". Even that has been appallingly managed.

As an Englishman, I find it disorienting to discover that the country I have lived in for 60 years isn't what I thought. It seems that half the Scots don't want to remain with us, and the other half will stay only if granted special terms and special privileges. Whatever the outcome, things won't be the same. I sense there will be a hardening of attitudes towards Scotland, with less willingness to be generous in negotiating separation terms if the "Yes"es win than I'd expected when this process started. If the vote is "No" and Scotland gets even more devolved powers, I think the expectation will be that you will have to pay for them all yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 08:59 AM

You're absolutely right, Howard, Scotland thinks it only has to sulk and it'll get its way. They're putting themselves in a position where they'll be dependent on goodwill from RUK to get anything, goodwill which will be in remarkably short supply. Two lovely black eyes, two lovely black eyes, only for telling DC he was wrong, two lovely mince pies. Thankfully they've already got a cage in Glsgow zoo for the laddie, with them he'll look like a panda, perhaps they'll be able to claim he's the offspring and charge to see him, it's about the only way he'll make a significant contribnution to the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 09:14 AM

The NO case is just not viable....if we are one family(UK), why should one part of that family(Scotland) be "promised" special privileges, why should we continue to have free education for our children, free care for the elderly, free prescriptions, council tax freeze etc, when the rest of the family do not?

If I was English or Welsh, I would be protesting vigorously.

Does it not make you think that Westminster must have a bloody good reason for holding on to the country that they like to present as a basket case, a country that is unable to run its own affairs, that cant be trusted with a shared currency, a country from which the leaders of industry cant wait to escape?

Its all fucking lies....Scotland is wealthy and we have not yet had every ounce of national pride kicked out of us......Aye we are a hard lot, but we love our ain country, its songs, its poetry, the guts and determination of Scots folk.
We love the English to..... the nation they were before dilution and their rulers starved bullied and brainwashed them!
Take Stu's advice, grow some balls, stand on your own feet, a federation of nation states would work, co-operating on currency, and must other "issues"
Vote AYE and hold yer heid up high!

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 09:54 AM

"a federation of nation states would work, co-operating on currency"

Like the Eurozone, you mean? Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 09:54 AM

Governments have to juggle priorities from the pot.

The bigger the pot, the better the risk pool.

Howard's point about hardening of attitudes is interesting. Assuming naivety is in abundance and there is independence, I notice that Salmond has said The Uk will have to negotiate currency union because he will have a mandate to do so from Scotland so they must.

Notwithstanding that no government has to give quarter to foreign politicians, I wonder how popular Salmond will be when a year in he says to the Scottish people;

1. To remain in NATO, the nuclear subs have to stay. Sorry, I tried.

2. We can't get currency union so The Uk will be setting our bank interest rates without discussing it with us first. Sorry I tried.

3. The exodus of finance, banks and large multinationals means we can't afford the free education, social infrastructure or anything else we promised. Sorry, I tried.

4. As an independent Scotland, we rely on the rest of the UK, but no longer have any control or influence over it. Sorry, I tried.

5. Oh, and they won't have us back. Sorry, I tried.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 10:00 AM

"It seems that half the Scots don't want to remain with us, and the other half will stay only if granted special terms and special privileges." - Howard Jones

Now I really would like you to explain how on earth you reached that point of view Howard knowing full well that there are those for, those against and those who are as yet undecided.

1: "It seems that half the Scots don't want to remain with us"

That is the "nationalist", or "separatist" view and they do not represent half by any stretch of the imagination.

2: "the other half will stay only if granted special terms and special privileges"

Utter nonsense among those who are happy with Union, who have always intended to vote NO, you will find the majority want no additional powers, special terms or privileges whatsoever - there are even quite an number would be only too pleased to see the idiotic Scottish Parliament disbanded as an utter waste of space, time, resources and money. Hell's teeth the useless bast**ds in Holyrood have clearly demonstrated over the past 15 years that they can't even be bothered to rouse themselves off their big, fat, useless backsides to use the powers they have let alone use any additional "powers".

The "Devo-Max" deal being offered is to try and seduce the more faint hearted "separatists" and the "undecideds" who might be leaning towards a YES vote.

I agree with you entirely when you say that irrespective of the outcome things will never be the same. Irrespective of the outcome England, Wales and Northern Ireland will still be a "united" United Kingdom, Scotland whether in or out of it come next Friday morning will be a nation riven apart, split into two camps sulking and waiting for the next round.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 10:13 AM

When this all started, I didn't sense a great deal of interest down here. The view I came across most was "we'll be sorry to see you go but it is for the Scots to decide", and an expectation of an amicable and fairly pain-free divorce in the event of a "Yes".

The "Yes" campaign may have gone down well in Scotland but down here it has often come across as arrogant, nasty and based on misinformation. It may claim to be anti-Westminster rather than anti-English, but it doesn't feel like it. Salmond's sense of entitlement that we must give him whatever he asks for is not going down well this side of the border, especially as it begins to sink in that it's going to be expensive for us as well as for you, and that the ramifications are far wider than most of us had first assumed.

Scotland will quite rightly expect its representatives to negotiate hard for the best terms they can get. We will expect ours to do the same. It will not be pretty.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 10:30 AM

The currency issue is a problem. I tackled my (tory) MP about it and he started foaming at the mouth, adamant there would be no currency union. But why should there be? The key word here is 'union' or 'shared'; it'll be a sodding huge whole in Scottish sovereignty if the BofE still dictates some economic policy. Have some balls Scotland and start afresh with a new currency.

A currency union would have to go to a referendum in rUK, and given Salmond's threat to lumber the poor of rUK with Scotland's share of the national debt (as it will be the poor who pay as usual) it's likely the vote would go against; the Scots are going to have a devil of a job persuading the ordinary working folk of rUK to underwrite their sovereign debt, the debut of a foreign country.

On the subject of oil, it's sad how quickly the kerching! of hydrocarbon dollars induces myopia in otherwise intelligent people. If Scotland is intend on wringing the North Sea of every drop of oil then we can kiss goodbye to any chance of preventing the worst consequences of global warning. Of course the Scots aren't alone in wallowing in the carbon mire with all the other troughers whilst the planet is tortured to death; they're about to frack the fuck out of England, but it exposes the lie in Scotland being any more progressive and forward-thinking than the rest of us. Never mind, our grandchildren can all suffer as one people.

Still, I'm massively in favour of independence. The Scots will be in charge of their own destiny, will no longer be "colonised by wankers" and will have to look inward to address their own failings or risk looking like mewling, petulant brats. The English have been doing that for years and look where we've ended up; a tilt to the right and the loss of our tending towards radicalism and social justice and equanimity. And you don't want to go there!

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 10:44 AM

Good name for a band..

Pseudo Jock and the Chippy Whingers.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 12:10 PM

"a federation of nation states would work, co-operating on currency"

It seems odd that a central nation would accept to have a currency without strong influence or control of the economic factors (which are broader than financial matters) that directly influence it. Using a currency to assist with trade and to base a currency on, such as some use the USA dollar, would likely be a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 12:19 PM

As one who has a large Scottish ancestry, but no opinion on this decision, I really worry about the tendency toward a closely split vote. No matter what happens, many people are going to be angry/frustrated. I really wonder about 'how' most are deciding.

a metaphor using a Scottish icon

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 12:33 PM

the first thing they ought to do is remove that tax on whisky. then everybody would go up there and stock up.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 12:48 PM

i am english. i live in the republic of ireland, i would like to see an independent scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 01:58 PM

Bill...."I really wonder about 'how' most are deciding."

Well I can tell you how most of the NOs are deciding Bill.

Most come from the well off semi retired, early retired demographic, or simply settled into a comfortable lifestyle and not wishing to rock the boat.   It is a purely selfish mindset, There are huge areas of deprivation in Scotland, youth unemployment is rife, and those who are employed are on short term, short hours, dead end jobs.
They have no future just measly benefits that would hardly keep a young man or woman.
We need control of the wealth we produce, to train our young folk, inspire them out of their torpor.
National pride may be anathema to some here but its all we have left to change our young people from hopeless cases into contributing, fulfilled citizens of the new Scotland.

Out of NATO, ban WDMs, get back to being a proud trading nation.
We have the BRAND, all we need is the will and the guts.
Vote AYE to make Scotland great.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 02:25 PM

It isn't selfish. It just means they got on with making a success of their lives instead of being a bitter hate filled failure.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 02:32 PM

i always wanted to be a bitter hate filled failure.....but godammit! musket - you're just so loveable...!

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 02:45 PM

Akenaton, you say "We need control of the wealth we produce, to train our young folk, inspire them out of their torpor." But aren't education and training, and economic development, already devolved? What would independence add that would make a difference?

This is a genuine question. So much of the discussion seems to have been about things which Scotland already controls, including the NHS. I'm puzzled by what difference independence is supposed to make, besides national pride (which I've never noticed any shortage of)

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 04:00 PM

The answer Howard is money. Training programmes on a scale which Scotland requires need adequate finance.

The Barnet formula only give back to Scotland, a part of what Scotland contributes to the UK exchequer
The money has to be spread thinly over a huge range of social policies it is not infinite.

With control over our finances, we can bring forward policies that would never see the light of day under a Tory controlled government.

That is what we have to look forward to in the UK family....another 20 years of right wing rule....from ALL the UK parties.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 04:02 PM

You're not a failure Al. I bet lots of people want your autograph!

A failure requires blaming others. The details might include, for instance, saying that those who vote differently to you don't deserve a vote because they are comfortable. Assuming anybody would be comfortable by anything an independent Scotland would offer them, presumably it would be their fault that Akenaton still gets upset by success, gay men, travellers, Scottish residents who weren't born there and anybody who doesn't share his corrupt outlook.

The little shit brings out the worst in me, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 07:06 PM

Just a point for any mods who may wander this way, I am getting rather sick of being stalked by this sad person.

A few days ago on this thread he announced that he had access to my name and home address...how he obtained these I know not, as we appear to live at opposite ends of the UK.

However I think we could do without any of the abuse which appears to be his trade mark.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 07:17 PM

If it's about money, the Scottish government already has had the power to vary tax rates, which it hasn't exercised, and more powers are already coming in.

Why haven't the Scottish people been insisting their government raise their taxes?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 07:33 PM

If Scotland had complete independence, all revenues would go directly to the Scottish exchequer, there would be no need to raise ADDITIONAL taxes from the Scottish people.

A large part of these revenues at present are retained by the Westminster govt to fund High Speed Railways in England, and foreign Wars in Iraq, Libya, and soon, Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 08:21 PM

Posting another song, Wolftone's version, to sort of go along with Stu's Diggers song:

(My Ancestry: Irish-Scots-Welsh-English, one American Indian)


Where is the flag of England? Go North, South, East or West. Wherever there's wealth to plunder or land to be possessed. Wherever there's feeble races to frighten, coerce or scare. You'll find the butcher's apron, the English flag is there!
It waits upon blazing hovels where African victims died, to be shot the explosive bullets or wretchedly starve and die, and where the pirate hammers the isles of southern seas, at the peak of the hellish vessel the English flag is free!
The Maori often cursed it with his bitterness dying breath, and the Arab hath hissed his hatred as he spat at its folds in death, and the helpless Hindu feared it, and the Kenyan did the same, and the Irish blood hath stained it, with a deep indelible stain.
Where is the flag of England? Go North, South, East or West. Wherever there's wealth to plunder or land to be possessed. Wherever there's feeble races to frighten, coerce or scare. You'll find the butcher's apron, the English flag is there!
It is floated on scenes of pillage, it is flaunted on deeds of shame. It has waved o'er fell marauders, as they ravished with sword and flame, it has looked upon on ruthless slaughter, and massacred dire and grim, and has heard the shrieks of victims drowning the jingo hymn.
Where is the flag of England? Seek lands where the natives rot. Where decay, and assured extinction must soon be a people's lot. Go search for once glad islands where death and disease are rife, and the greed of colossal commerce now fattens on human life.
Where is the flag of England? Go North, South, East or West. Wherever there's wealth to plunder or land to be possessed. Wherever there's feeble races to frighten, coerce or scare. You'll find the butcher's apron, the English flag is there!
Where is the flag of England? Go sail where rich boats come. With shoddy and loaded cottons, and beer and Bibles and guns. Go where brute forces triumphed, and hypocrisy makes its lair.        In your question you'll find the answer, it was and still is there!
Where is the flag of England? Go North, South, East or West. Wherever there's wealth to plunder or land to be possessed. Wherever there's feeble races to frighten, coerce or scare. You'll find the butcher's apron, the English flag is there.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,.garglyle
Date: 15 Sep 14 - 09:24 PM

How long will it take for the counting of absentee ballots?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

The five Scott's I know are ex-pats living in three different countries.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 02:54 AM

1: " I can tell you how most of the NOs are deciding Bill.

Most come from the well off semi retired, early retired demographic, or simply settled into a comfortable lifestyle and not wishing to rock the boat.   It is a purely selfish mindset,"

Ehmmmmm No Akenaton, you are wrong both in describing the group you refer to as the "NOs" and in attributing a motive for them being "No" voters. The YES camp is based in emotion and fairy stories, on a number of occasions during the campaign senior SNP figures have been caught out telling lie after lie, lies in fact that were so blatant that they did not even stand up to even cursory examination. Thus marks the stamp of those you wish to see lead and govern our country - you might trust in the word of Jowly Eck & Co I certainly do not.

So NO voters do not wish to rock the boat eh? I think that those you describe will the ones asked to pay through the nose to fund Scotland's little "Marxist" Utopia, if you doubt that then I think that you should check up on the number of Scottish Tax payers who are net contributors to the Exchequer (~40%, if indeed that high) - and the prospect of funding this doomed project is what makes them NO voters.

2: "There are huge areas of deprivation in Scotland, youth unemployment is rife, and those who are employed are on short term, short hours, dead end jobs.
They have no future just measly benefits that would hardly keep a young man or woman.
We need control of the wealth we produce, to train our young folk, inspire them out of their torpor."

Who have the electorate in all these areas of utter deprivation voted for since Keir Hardy was a bairn Akenaton? Since the end of the Second World War that Party has been in power as the National Government for as long as their political opponents, while in civic government they have had a clear run almost for that entire time - Tell me what good has it done those who voted for them? Who do you think they are going to vote for now? Something different or will they go for the "same old" - if the latter they can expect the same result whether that is in a Scottish Parliament or one based in Westminster. Pin a red rosette on a donkey in Glasgow and it will get elected, that is the political nouse and understanding of the voter.

The Scottish Parliament "socialist" in nature since 1999 has had the power to raise tax in Scotland by 3%, a power granted under devolution, yet not once has it been used - care to tell me why this source of revenue was not used at the insistence of Scottish Members of Parliament to alleviate all this deprivation Akenaton? These of course will be same MPs that will be standing for election to any Parliament of an independent Scotland won't they?

Your argument that if Scotland had control of its entire income things would be different are a bit hollow - the wankers in the SNP haven't even costed out what independence will cost let alone worked out what they would view as how their promises to the electorate will be funded. As Members of the Scottish Parliament they were I presume elected to do whatever was necessary to look after the best interests of both the people and the nation of Scotland - Since 1999 they have failed miserably - I do not see any prospect of, or have any confidence in, them improving that track record.

3: Your empty phrases such as:

"We need control of the wealth we produce, to train our young folk, inspire them out of their torpor."

AND

"National pride may be anathema to some here but its all we have left to change our young people from hopeless cases into contributing, fulfilled citizens of the new Scotland."

Are a complete and utter joke, they can't be bothered to get out of bed to look for even the most basic of jobs, which they would do if either they or their parents had any sort of "work ethic", but there again why should they, they can get more on benefits than they can working.

So rather than rattle out empty phrases Akenaton give us some details as to how it would be done, how much it would cost, who would pay for it. But like a true "socialist" it is all too easy just to sit back and blame others - well as that is what you are doing then blame the right people - those you have elected to the Scottish Parliament at Holyrood since 1999 - they have had the power since that date and they have consistently failed to use it.

4: "Out of NATO, ban WDMs, get back to being a proud trading nation."

After getting out of NATO and banishing WDMs [sic] Who is it that you are going to trade with? 80% of Scotland's trade is with the rest of the UK who you will just have pissed off mightily. For Scotland's former customers in the rest of the UK trade with Scotland, being a non-EU member, will instantly become more expensive. So it will be in the best interest of those companies to find alternative suppliers either in the UK itself or elsewhere within the EU, that they will do in the interim period between the 19th September 2014 and the 24th March 2016.

In that interim period should a YES vote be returned on Friday all five of Scotland's Banks will shift their registered offices South and they will then shift their operations South as well, they will not leave thousands of personnel up in an independent Scotland where they will have to pay tax, in the best interests of the UK Treasury those jobs and that tax revenue will be brought South - doubt that then take a good look at who is RBS's biggest shareholder - The Treasury will call the shots and RBS will do as it is told.

Standard Life (90% of its business is in England) they will do the same, as will the likes of Aegon and Brewin Dolphin - Scotland's financial sector will be destroyed.

Scotland's GDP estimated at US$269 billion for this year will shrink dramatically in the interim as the flight of jobs, capital and people make itself felt.

Musket is perfectly correct Jowly's mantra on every pre-referendum promise will be - Sorry but I tried

Predictions by experts are that the economies of both independent Scotland and the UK will take a hit if the Union is dissolved. In the first five years both economies will decline the UK's much less than Scotland', in the following five the UK's economy will have recovered but Scotland's will continue to decline.

Prats like Jim Sillars threatening businesses with a "day of reckoning" don't help the independence cause one iota.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 03:44 AM

Not much point in refuting all that Teribus, most of it is simply your take on things.

Since the start of the campaign, I have been shocked by the numbers of intelligent young people who simply have no chance of a well paid job.
The only jobs available are short hours and low pay, with no prospects of advancement.

One young chap had written dozens of job applications, finally went to America on an exchange scheme, loved it, but had to return in 3 months under the scheme rules, now back on benefits which do not support him and living with his parents.
This young man is highly intelligent, but says there are hundreds in his position....he is voting yes, not to protect his wealth, but to get a life.

As they say Mr T, ..."yer tea's oot!!".....On Friday we will know if the future is in the hands of our youth of this country, or the wealthy pensioners, bankers, and industrialists, who contributed so much to the failure of our economy.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 04:06 AM

Guest, it's not the English flag that song refers to but the British one. Scotland profited from the British Empire just as much, perhaps more, than other parts of Britain, and to this day Scottish engineering can be found in the remotest corners of the globe. Scots were at the forefront of developing and ruling the Empire. So don't try to claim some kind of moral superiority for Scotland, you were as culpable as we were for its excesses and mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 04:20 AM

Akenaton, my own sons here in England are in a similar position. It may have escaped your notice, but we are coming through a global recession. Have you thought how much worse it would have been had Scotland already been independent and could not turn to the British Government to bail out RBS and the other failed Scottish financial institutions?

Self-determination is an illusion in a global economy. Even the UK does not have full self-determination, it is constrained by formal political relationships and informal global and economic pressures. However as a larger entity it is in a stronger position. Scotland seems to think it can turn in on itself and be unaffected by outside factors. In particular, Scotland cannot avoid being affected by the RUK economy but will have given up any say in it.