BS: scottish independence

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 08:21 AM

I suppose Stalin sat wondering if democracy helped him work out what is good for people before dismissing it as not giving him the answers.

Whilst the disillusioned idiots here carry on thinking people don't know what's good for them, the population of Scotland is waiting to see how the future holds now their status as part of The UK is confirmed.

As Salmond says Scotland is so rich, I look forward to the rest of us sharing the riches. However, the reality being different, I suppose more of my taxes will drift North.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 08:24 AM

""Nothing is inevitable in politics""
Michael Ignatieff

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 08:32 AM

"If a Scottish government could gain an irresistible mandate to negotiate independence then I think it would have to happen." - Howard Jones

Now what would in your mind constitute "an irresistible mandate" - like winning an election on their flagship policy of "An Independent Scotland" - If so they got that in the 2011 Scottish Parliamentary Elections the only trouble with that is that less than 45% of the electorate turned out to vote so that the SNP Government was elected by less than 21% of the electorate - In 2011 more of the people who turned out to vote voted to keep the SNP out than voted to get the SNP in - so hardly what anyone could describe as having "an irresistible mandate"

Future attempts at destroying the United Kingdom of Great britain and Northern Ireland should meet the criteria that the people of any one of the constituent countries must vote in a referendum to establish whether or not THEY want a referendum IT SHOULD NOT BE LEFT TO THE AGENDA OF A SINGLE POLITICAL PARTY. Population of Scotland 5.3 million, electorate of Scotland ~4 million v SNP voters ~0.9 million, SNP members 45,000

Here Howard is the voice of the electorate of Scotland on independence as of 18th September 2014:

2,001,926 voted NO to independence
1,617,989 voted YES to independence

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,gutcher
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 10:04 AM

Cognizance must be made of the fact that the voting system set up for election to the Scottish Parliament was meant to ensure that no party could have an overall majority in that Assembly.
Scottish Labour, if there be such a beast, have never recovered from their defeat in the 2011 election and the events of last week when five areas,at the very heart of their support, voted YES must be giving them much to think about at their current conference.
These five areas contain some of the worst areas of deprivation in Europe. this despite some of them having been controlled by Labour Councils for over Seventy Years.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 10:30 AM

Teribus, I agree the result of this referundum was convincing. On the other hand 45% of Scots wanted to leave, and it appears at least some of the No voters will have to be bribed to remain. At best, the vote to stay in the Union was conditional.

I think the time may come when there is a clear majority support for independence. I don't have a particular figure in mind, although in some countries a 2/3 majority is required for changes to the constitution. However if there were a convincing majority in favour I don't see how the UK government could ignore it. In those circumstances it would be better to negotiate first and then vote on the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 02:15 PM

""I think the time may come when there is a clear majority support for independence""

Possibly, given time, Scotland may be like Quebec-where the topic of separation never goes away, but support has deminished over time? (Though, it could resurface again, under a different climate).

In Quebec, where the population mostly speaks a different language than the rest of Canada, separation from Canada is now estimated to be at an all time low (over 44 years) -below 40 percent. This number is down from the 49.4 percent vote for separation in the 1995 referendum. The reason, according to most who do attitude surveys on the topic, is "sovereigntists are getting older and dying, or giving up on splitting from therest of Canada. There is low renewed support for sovereignty to replace them among the younger generation, who currently focus more on economic issues, versus the language, culture and constitutional issues that turned many strongly towards separation many years ago.

Could the situation evolve differently in Scotland? Well, yes-especially if the central UK government does not heed the recent messages given by the Scottish citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 02:32 PM

Hi Guest Gutcher

I did not mean my comment about the spelling mistake to be taken seriously. It was meant to be a friendly joke.

I am sorry that you did not take it that way.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 02:42 PM

I think from his comments over credentials of other people, he is slightly unhinged anyway. Incidentally, the areas he speaks of are also controlled by the parliament in Edinburgh. Perhaps he might ask his clever friends what that means.

Scotland is part of The UK. Currency is safe, jobs in defence, oil and banking are safe so the parliament in Scotland can now concentrate on providing a sustainable future for its people, using the devolved powers they have. Some of which they don't use, preferring to blame others for situations within their power to address.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 03:43 PM

A Scottish neighbor (he came over long ago) said that the Scots have become too "Britified" to vote for independence.

As a Canadian, I shouldn't comment, but the vote seems to have supported his view.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,gutcher
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 03:48 PM

Apology accepted Mikel 2

Have become so used to lies and rat like squirmings from an obvious source that I may have been inclined to take a jaundiced view of other posts appearing to uphold his reprehensible conduct.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: selby
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 03:55 PM

Was it not agreed by Alex Salmond and David Cameron that the referendum was a straight majority even if that figure was one.

Each thought he could win with this deal and it went to the wire.

So why does no one from the Yes camp want to build a better Scotland?

Why does no one from the yes camp feel pleased that they have given their English Welsh and N Irish brothers hope?

What does the yes camp continue to behave like petulant children rather than Adults with a brighter future than at the moment the rest of the UK

Keith

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 05:11 PM

Even when they rattle on about Salmond's "reprehensible conduct" they confuse him with those of us who understand and respect the Scottish people and their democratic wish.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:47 AM

"and it appears at least some of the No voters will have to be bribed to remain"

What is your basis for that assumption? The vast majority of those who voted NO had you asked them the instant the referendum question came up would have told you that they:

A: Never wanted a referendum in the first place
B: Fully intended to Vote NO

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 05:04 AM

All the UK parties had to pile in with promises of further devolution and the 'No' camp is insisting that they keep these, no less than the Yes side are.

Teribus, I don't question that many No voters had already made up their minds, nevertheless these promises do seem to have swayed some. Would the Nos have won so convincingly without these promises? Scotland's vote to remain appears to be conditional.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 05:12 AM

Just last week, Yes campaigners were extremely jubilant and boasting that victory was in sight. They "poo pooed" the so called scare stories of the No campaign and the late hour offer of extra powers saying then that it would have no benefit for their opponents and actually drive even more people over to the Yes side.

Now that they have lost, they are now blaming the No side for scaremongering and attempting to bribe the electorate. This "wot swung it" they bleat but they didn't say this would be the case the week before and the negative campaigning by Better Together was always stated to be one of the reasons why Yes support was so high. Now, we're expected to swallow the notion that all Yes voters did so as they supported Independence as an ideal and were all committed to the cause.

Of course, The Yes campaign also continually tried to bribe the electorate throughout with promises which could not be guaranteed i.e. more childcare, no more wars, Tory free Scotland and so on. They also spread their own fear stories re The NHS and so so on.

Further, they exploited the fact that many poorer people who wished to be rid of the Tory Gov and had temporarily lost faith with Labour felt that they had little to lose and encouraged them to vote Yes.

However, these voters didn't necessarily support Independence either but just hoped that "their lot" could be improved some way of other.
If, and I realise it's a "big IF", we do get the promised extra powers and these prove to be adequate, many of these disaffected voters will no longer worry about Independence and all this extra "YES" support will soon melt like snow off a dyke.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 05:25 AM

"the 'No' camp is insisting that they keep these, no less than the Yes side are"

As far as I can see Howard nobody in the NO camp are really all that fussed about "additional powers" and if the YES side shut up about them there wouldn't be a murmur.

Your additional power "bribe" came on the 16th September the referendum was on the 18th September if you check there was no "effect" whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 02:43 PM

Hi

IMHO many of the potential NO voters were swayed over the to YES by the appearance of " The Three Stooges".

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 03:47 PM

If the idiots rattling on about being duped are representative of the yes voters, which of course they aren't* then they have a low opinion of the intelligence of the majority of voters in Scotland and deserve to be marginalised and ignored by normal people anyway. They certainly don't know fuck all about Scotland nor its people despite their pretence otherwise.



* There is one in every village. Scotland seems to have a commune of the sad sods.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 08:22 AM

To be honest I wasn't that bothered about Scottish Independence one way or the other (chances of me ever going there is quite remote as I am not a lover of cold weather)except for the fact that it has caused ripples and discomfort at Westminster. As far as I am concerned politicians have needed a kick up the backside for a while now. It has been a good thing to bring it home to all the parties concerned that not all people in the UK are happy. Even if the 'Yes' votes haven't won it is still a big voice of disgruntled people to take into account let's hope Cameron keeps to any promises that he has made, although I doubt it.