BS: scottish independence

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: selby
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 04:49 AM

I did not realise reading some of these posts that England was a colonial power in Scotland. I thought the whole UK through thick and thin stuck it out for good or bad together.
With a Scotish Grandmother I have always had a strong affinity with Scotland but listening to some of the petulant spoiled child statements been made I feel nothing but sadness that a proud and well respect family member is behaving this way and now feel, go as you as a independent country and your elected representatives bring nothing to the table. This is not about party politics this is about your future and I am afraid some of you do not get it, you give the impression that when it turns bad for you the rest of the UK will go oh come back we still love you unfortunately we wont. Sadly I feel that your Yes parties behavior makes many people in the rest of the UK not wish to be a good friend to Scotland. You seem to forget there is a whole country indeed the whole world look at you and your leadership does not present Scotland in a positive light.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 04:53 AM

Alex. You have given your name and location on these threads many times.

I have asked The SNP if they support your claim that their party leader doesn't give a damn about equality and is manipulating the press whilst having an agenda far more in tune with your own odious views.

You said that on this thread and as you claim to know Mr Salmond and be a member of his party it is quite legitimate to ask if they wish to disown your comments. The link to this thread I gave to The Scotsman newspaper was in the same manner.

For all your crap about being stalked, you are the one who upsets gay Mudcat members with your criminal homophobia and lies.

Payback time, sick puppy.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 05:44 AM

Akenaton a word of advice for your young friend:

No matter how well qualified you think you are if there is a job then take take it - a job is a job and work experience is work experience - It is far better for you to work than sit at home and sponge off your parents and the State - It is called having a "Work Ethic" Akenaton, something that is apparently a "foreign concept".

Pray tell us how voting YES will deliver a new life to this young man?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Stu
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 06:16 AM

"I did not realise reading some of these posts that England was a colonial power in Scotland"

There's a fair bit of revisionist thinking going on at present on both sides. It seems insane that our current politics are defined by the actions of Norman-descended aristocracy in the middle ages. The imposition of the Hanoverians and current incumbents Saxe-Coburg and Gotha wrankles as much as the rule of the Normans and Plantagents, but then it does across these islands, including England, where we're still under the Yoke as well. Everyone on these islands have been fucked over by our the toffs for a thousand years.

The Scots were willing and vital participants in empire (Edinburgh is the most imperial city I've ever been in, even more so than London in some ways), with all the good and bad that role brings with it. The Scots were a huge part of the enlightenment and were an intellectual powerhouse that stood alongside England and Wales as they made their presence felt across the globe.

The real struggle here is the ordinary, working people of these islands who have lost their lands in clearances, plantation and enclosure, who have organised to secure their rights only to see them destroyed by the piggies with their snouts in the trough and their political shills, who stood side by side and suffered the horrors of war started by over privileged royal scumballs, fascistic madmen or the oil-obsessed, lying poltroons that are modern politicians of all countries and creed.

Expect history to be re-written again and again during the coming years, especially if after the result either way recriminations and blame instead of progress become the new way.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 06:35 AM

Well, I suppose that after David Beckham gave a view it was only a matter of time before the sage advice of naval cooks got everybody to stop and think.

Greasy food. The effects of which make the cost of health and social care in Scotland almost untenable.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 08:10 AM

So the Scottish NHS is safe in the hands of the YeSNP is it? Vote YES to protect the Scottish NHS Jowly & Co spouted:

NHS Scotland SNP Generated Funding Gap £450 million

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 08:45 AM

The problem is, and no political posturing or even money is going to alter these two basic facts;

The health inequalities of Scotland are far greater than the rest of The UK. Whilst you can look at a council ward in say, New Town of Edinburgh and compare it to Tower Hamlets or Middlesborough favourably, the overall health in Scotland is lower than the the overall health in England. Wales and NI are between the two.

Whilst policy and practice can help overcome this long term, it is a generational issue.

The other huge cost for much of Scotland is rurality. There are high cost small patient number services based out of Elgin as an example that a district general hospital in England with three times the served population wouldn't be viable to provide. The Royal Colleges are concerned that some consultants do not see enough cases to keep up to date with practice.

The NHS is a bit of a red herring here in this debate because the Scottish system is organised, run and governed under Scottish law and always has been. There are huge differences between how each country within The UK provide NHS care. An independent Scotland would be subject to the same Royal College guidelines, NICE and accreditation. Regulatory bodies such as GMC, NMC etc would remain as they are in an independent Scotland, as no doctor would wish to train where their training and experience was not recognised. This has been acknowledged by the Scottish government.

I was at a Royal Medical Society dinner in Edinburgh recently and there is huge concern that continuity is not enough. The universities are concerned they might not attract medical students as they do hitherto and consultants are considering how peer group and clinical networks will be affected, making the lack of doctors even more acute.

At present, the spending per head in Scotland is higher than the UK average, and the call on that is also higher.

There are legitimate concerns over NHS Scotland regardless of the vote, and neither camp is in a position to make the problems go away.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 06:51 PM

And now we see the worst and lowest form of brownshirt menace being wheeled out by the Yes campagne. Is it any wonder the English are fast coming around to my way of thinking, that we should be given a vote whether we want Scotland?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 04:05 AM

I wonder how many have ignored the political nonsense and found the facts for themselves.

ONS and treasury figures concur that grouping all public spending, Scotland spends just over £1,200 per head of population than the combined rest of The UK.

It isn't hard. Verifiable audited accounts. You can google them and with five mins and a pocket calculator see it for yourself.

So, if more is spent on social infrastructure, where is it going? SNP have control of spending it, so what are they doing with it, and what difference would the other 2% make if they controlled the lot?

By following nationalistic dreams, the idiots have divided a nation. The UK will feel divided regardless of the outcome. Scotland will feel divided regardless of the outcome.

Well done Salmond. I assume your grandfather fought against repugnant nationalism in the same war my father did?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 06:54 AM

About 10,000 Germans living in Scotland will have the right to vote for or against Scottish independence. That's why we can read in our press how they will vote and, more interesting, why they will vote with yes or no. Two opinions:

One woman with a small export oriented business will vote with YES because she thinks Scottish independence makes it more likely that Scotland will stay in the EU and that will help her business.

One young man (could be tongue in cheek, but that was difficult to say from just reading his words): In the few years I am living here I got so fed up with the Scottish always moaning and whining that everything that's bad is the fault of the English that I am voting YES just not to be forced to listen to that complaint any longer.

Wolfgang (more than just a bit puzzled that Germans and other foreigners have the right to vote in that decision)

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Stu
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 07:11 AM

"more than just a bit puzzled that Germans and other foreigners have the right to vote in that decision"

It's nothing to do with ethnicity, it's whether you're resident in the country that counts.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 07:20 AM

The comment about remaining in the EU is surprising, as everyone apart from Salmond is saying Scotland will automatically leave the EU and will have to reapply. This would take years. The Spanish PM has repeated his opposition, and a survey has shown that most European businesses aren't bothered whether or not Scotland leaves, which suggests they won't be pushing for it to be readmitted.

As for foreigners having a vote, I suspect Salmond's strategy is that residents in Scotland with no British allegiance are more likely to vote for independence.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 08:13 AM

It's astounding that we're still rehashing this question of who should have the vote. It's perfectly simple and fair. If people have moved away from Scotland - to the extent of no longer being resgistered to vote in Scottish elections - then they don't get a vote.

If people, wherever they are from, are registered to vote in Scotland, then they get a vote. And bear in mind the biggest group of non-Scottish-born voters eligible to vote in the referendum are actually *English* - about 370,000.

How could being born in Scotland entitle anyone to a vote?
It's nothing to do with gerrymandering of the electorate, as Howard Jones implies. It's about steering the fairest possible way through a problematic process.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 08:39 AM

I agree with that, Scabby Douglas.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 08:44 AM

I'm not suggesting its not simple and fair. It's admirably simple, and it would have been impossible to decide who outside Scotland would be eligible. It would also be difficult, if not unlawful, to exclude Scottish residents who were not 'Scottish'. So no gripes about that.

However it is naive to believe that Salmond didn't think very carefully before agreeing who and who should not be franchised. He's a very wily and skillful politician. From Salmond's point of view the 'foreign' vote is low-risk. I also doubt he would have allowed 16 year olds to vote if we wasn't confident most of them would vote Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 08:49 AM

But if you are not careful, you end up with the Irish national football team when Jack Charlton was manager. Full of English and Welsh players, on the basis your Grandma owned an Irish Wolfhound.

Of course Salmond was gerrymandering when carving up the criteria. He can't get a yes from the good people of Scotland without lying, cheating and threatening, so for an idealist like him, the end justifies the means.

A bit like when Yasser Arafat was caught lying and he said it is OK to lie in order to achieve your aims. Achieving your aims is your focus.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 09:13 AM

yes, but i as an englishman living in ireland am not allowed to vote on irsh referendums or whether ireland should have agreed to the lisbon treaty or on matters of the irish constitution or abortion, following this logic germans or other europeans resident in scotland should not be allowed to vote, so much for democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 09:15 AM

Wait, Musket, wait. You're saying that Alex Salmond can't win without "lying, cheating and threatening". You've defined, in your own mind, that it's the only understandable way for independence to be achieved. Therefore, if there is a Yes vote tomorrow, then you already know how it will have been achieved: lying, cheating and threats. Lovely circular reasoning.

There are plenty of lies being told, much threatening, and attempts to cheat. But most of them are emanating from the No campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 09:27 AM

Schweik, I'm afraid there's nothing much anybody here can do to help you on what rights you have in Ireland. Those are Irish rules.

If it helps, if you had moved to Scotland early enough to register, you could have voted in the Scottish referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Dazbo at Work
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 11:06 AM

Wolfgang - I don't think he spoke tongue in cheek as that's the way many of us English feel. Being blamed for things that aren't our fault or within our control and then whinging about not being represented when they have more MPs per head of poputlation than anywhere else in the UK and a disproportionate presence in senior government and civil service posts. Not for nothing was the last labour government called a Jockocracy. Bear in mind that since devolution Scottish MPs in Westminster have voted on matters that affect England that English MPs can't vote on when it affects Scotland; even on occasion ensuring unpopular English legislation was passed only with the help of the votes from the Scottish labour MPs.

The Scots have come across for the last forty five years that I can remember as spoiled brats who blame all their ills on the English yet ignore all the privileges they have been granted and jobs preserved. Why, for example, are the major UK navy dockyards located in Scotland and the English ones all closed down or downsized?

Akenaton is whinging about the unemployed youths in Scotland. He doesn't mention that it costs a Scottish student a lot less to get a degree than an English Student (bear in mind also that a Student from an EU country also pays less in a Scottish university than an English student at the same Scottish university on the same degree course). England is the only country in the UK that has to pay prescription charges. etc etc etc.

Basically the Yesers want their cake and eat it and grab as much of the English cake they can get their hands on and still claim we are cheating them.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 12:00 PM

Dazbo, with all due respect, you are missing the point. "Yesers", as you call them, are actively seeking to step away from this relationship that causes you to feel so aggrieved and put-upon. We're not voting Yes to gain new concessions, or to get a better kind of devolution. We want to be responsible for our own governance, our own future.

Precisely because we've had enough of being seen as spongers, whiners, freeloaders.

(And this is where you come back and pour scorn on the very idea that Scotland can do it, where you tell us that we'll be crawling back in a few years, once we're broke, etc, etc. )

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 12:07 PM

Not sure of your point Scabby Douglas?

Well, considering Salmond has told some corkers where I either know the facts by virtue of what I do or the facts are there for anybody to get their hands on, either my point stands or he is misinformed.

Either is somewhat scary...

Of course, the real culprit here is Cameron who was so cocksure nobody would vote yes, he agreed to a process that affects The UK without 90% of The UK getting a say in it.

Pandora's box is well and truly open. I don't get to vote of course, but if it is a yes, I get to vote in the next general election where parties will be looking for mandates to negotiate, and I don't see much chance of anybody getting elected on a pro Scotland ticket any more than a pro Europe one.

Listen to your man Salmond properly. He promises the benefits, then says he then has to negotiate said benefits with The UK. He has his excuses lined up ready. He sounds like the German finance minister who, when they were preparing for The Euro, said The UK will have to drop the pound and take on The Euro. Their denial is just political posturing...

Saltire? Satire more like...

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 02:29 PM

Go or stay, I don't think this has done Anglo-Scottish relations many favours. The case for independence seems to be, "we're not just distinct from you, we're different from you". The anti-English feeling which is never far below the surface has been evident. That's not a good basis for a future relationship, whether as neighbours or within the Union. I think there may be an English backlash which will make it harder for Scotland to get the terms it wants.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 02:43 PM

You put the position very well Doug, we just want to take responsibility for our own affairs.

The UK has been granting independence to ex colonies for years, time this particular "colony" stood up for its young people, who are the future of Scotland, not the wealthy pensioners, the crooked bankers, absentee landlords, or the pen pushers who turned our National Health Service into a business and almost destroyed it in the process.

I have been out canvassing, and have spoken to hundreds of customers and locals.....I am amazed at the numbers who were unsure but are now moving to YES....I have yet to encounter one person who has moved from YES to NO.

AS I said at the beginning, the final vote will be decided on gut instinct, National pride, and personal responsibility.

"Freedom come all ye"

Roch the wind in the clear day's dawin
Blaws the cloods heelster-gowdie ow'r the bay,
But there's mair nor a roch wind blawin
Through the great glen o' the warld the day.
It's a thocht that will gar oor rottans
– A' they rogues that gang gallus, fresh and gay –
Tak the road, and seek ither loanins
For their ill ploys, tae sport and play

Nae mair will the bonnie callants
Mairch tae war when oor braggarts crousely craw,
Nor wee weans frae pit-heid and clachan
Mourn the ships sailin' doon the Broomielaw.
Broken faimlies in lands we've herriet,
Will curse Scotland the Brave nae mair, nae mair;
Black and white, ane til ither mairriet,
   Mak the vile barracks o' their maisters bare.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: selby
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 06:28 PM

Whatever the result tomorrow its goodbye United Kingdom the union has been shattered by the attitude of the YES voters.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: olddude
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 07:38 PM

if i may render a guess i think maybe Wales will be next what do you folks in the uk think

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Stu
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 03:59 AM

The issue with Wales is one of economics and is very different to that of Scotland. independence would have to look quite different for Wales as the countries are so different, and Wales is much more closely tied to England in an economic sense.

I think some sort of devo-max for Wales could work and I for one (having a Welsh parent) would love to see Wales stand up for herself more; she's a wonderful country with wonderful people and although her traditions are not as well-known the Scottish ones, they are deep and ancient.

"time this particular "colony" stood up for its young people"

Oh Lordy Ake, Scotland isn't and never has been a colony. It's a tad disrespectful to those countries that were colonies to include yourself alongside them as victims. The Scots were equal and eager partners in Empire and like it or not you were the coloniser alongside the English and Welsh, not the victim.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 04:10 AM

Be fair Stu. They weren't very good at it when they tried it on their own in Central America. They needed to be part of something bigger in order to successfully colonise.

Methinks Akenaton would do well to get someone to read out some Scottish history books to him. For someone so in love with a vision that doesn't exist, his lack of understanding of Scotland is breathtaking.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 06:38 AM

URGENT REFERENDUM UPDATE: Electoral Commission have decided that due to expect large turn out that they are splitting polling day over two... important that if you are voting Yes do so on Thursday 18th and if No voter go to polling stations on Friday 19th.

Please spread as wide as possible to avoid delays.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 07:02 AM

Why are you lying, gnu?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 07:14 AM

Don't laugh. Polls suggest enough poor buggers up there are gullible enough to fall for it.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 07:52 AM

Robo-gnu?
;)

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 08:46 AM

i think it will be a surprise yes vote about 52 per cent

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Stu
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 08:59 AM

I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 09:06 AM

Only residents will be able to vote in the referendum, however, expats and Scottish-Americans alike are discussing the issues on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 09:08 AM

There is a nice little scenario if the Yes side wins. Suppose the Scotland does then join the EU, as the 'yes' side always claimed. But there is already a promise of an rUK vote for an EU in-or-out referendum in certain circumstances. What exactly happens if that occurs and rUK votes to leave, presumably leaving Scotland still in the EU. The ramifications are interesting ...

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Dazbo at Work
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 11:00 AM

Seems like the SNP have told the Shetlanders that they can't have a referendum to leave Scotland and become an independent crown colony. Seems like's what good for the gander isn't good for the goose - especially one that's got a huge oily egg.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 11:25 AM

So, when will we know (or start to know?) the outcome? Is it by paper or electronic ballot? When do the polls close? Will haggis be served?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 11:29 AM

BBC... "Votes will be cast at 5,579 polling stations until 22:00 on Thursday. The result is expected on Friday morning."

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: skarpi
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 12:28 PM

I heard that Iceland is supporting Scotland independence :)
Go Scotland say Yes ....
Don´t listen to that Mr, Brown the Elite is afraid ....take change ..
be independence . ,

Stop the Elite ..say YES ...
all the best Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 01:27 PM

Hows the bank balance Mr Iceland?

Remember when Salmond wanted to emulate your economy?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 02:42 PM

Scots' main reason for considering independence is that the regime in the UK in the last 20 or 30 years has been increasingly foreign to Scottish values. They don't like the growing distance between classes, the 'austerity' values, the lack of egalitarianism.
If Scots vote to become an independent country, it is unlikely that any of the scenarios envisaged here will take place.

* Currency: a country can peg its currency to any other currency it wishes, and trade it at that value. Ireland pegged its currency to the British pound for a long time, and then to the EMU and then the euro, before joining the euro.
* EU membership: the EU would be only gumming to have Scotland - with a major chunk of the world's oil reserves, and rich fishing grounds, plus a vibrant financial service sector - as a member.
* Non-EU: however, Scotland could make an alliance with countries like the similarly oil- and fish-rich Norway, which has thrived outside the EU, while for instance Ireland's once rich fishing grounds have been fished out to barrenness by being opened to all EU fishing vessels.
(The EU's clumsy quota system means that fishermen throw back millions of tons of dead and dying fish into the sea because they're not acceptable within their catch quota. The EU's farm payments system has deformed farming and ruined small farmers, while chucking money and advantage at the ranchers who farm on an industrial scale. And the EU which was born with such noble promises that small and large countries would have equal advantage has become a Reich of bullying big countries.)

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 02:54 PM

Would that be the same Norway that complains that in order to trade, it is stuck with EU rules without influencing them or having a say?

Would that be an independent Scotland that would be saddled with its share of the debt without said debt featuring in any SNP promises or forecasts?

Would that be an independent Scotland so independent that it could not set its own interest rates?

Would that be the same welcoming EU that includes Spain?

What gets me is that when reality pops in for a sandwich, it is seen as part of a no campaign rather than a demonstration of the risks Salmond and his cronies has already subjected the whole of The Uk to purely to feed a nationalistic dream borne of bigotry and blaming others for the state of the country he has been governing for a while now.

It'd be funny if it wasn't so potentially tragic.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 03:02 PM

Spain is likely to have its own questions to deal with as Catalonia moves towards independence.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 03:23 PM

If yes - I dare anyone to ask Dick Gaughan how he likes being a foreigner!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 03:41 PM

300 years is one hell of step backwards!

Here's what Neil Oliver has to say:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11102155/Now-is-not-the-time-for-Scots-to-think-small.html

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 07:59 PM

I don't know anything about Neil Oliver, but I hope they listen to him. This should be a time of unions, not partitions.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 10:16 PM

As I head to bed, the early returns from The Hebrides and the Orkneys are all 'no'. Lots more to go, but they expected more yes votes.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: PHJim
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 12:55 AM

Sounds like the "Nos" have it, but Edinburgh's not in yet.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 01:15 AM

And finally, Fife says No.

Alas, it appears the fat lady has stopped singing.