Racist songs .... arghhhh!

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 May 09 - 01:03 PM

My apologies for not having followed this thread much, but some of the references to early songs with negative racial implications, sparked thoughts of 'The Fair Ellender' which I ironically rather love for it's sheer abundance of grotesque attitudes belonging to the upper classes in England thus depicted, and so comfortably related in this ballad!: mysogyny, racism, avaricious money grabbing and hypocrisy in spades, it's all there:

Lord Thomas and Fair Ellender

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:06 PM

Haven't we discussed this exact line of lyric business about The Rare Ould Times before? I have been to that site several times and never was taken by any reactionary or racist comment.

Pete St.John's history and reputation are without reproach. I believe that the lyric is in St. John's eyes exactly what Azizi is hoping for. Merely a description and not a condemnation.

Don

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,JedMarum
Date: 08 May 09 - 04:25 PM

agreed, Don.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: meself
Date: 08 May 09 - 04:48 PM

For Azizi and anyone else who doesn't know the song, give it a listen: Dublin in the Rare Ould Times.

As for the line in contention - I don't think there's any reason to feel that the speaker is a virulent racist - but by the same token, there's no reason to suppose that his attitudes are more liberal than those of any other white working-man of his supposed time and place. I think Azizi is on the money when she says (to paraphrase) that probably the fact that the speaker lost the girl to a Black man is supposed to make the loss sting even more - along with the fact that the Black man was a "student chap". Either characteristic could be a source of some humiliation for the speaker: he loses the girl to a social superior - "a student" - who as such is also less of a "man" - at the same losing her to someone he might have expected to be a social inferior, or at least to be disadvantaged in the competition, not only as a newcomer (presumably), but as a Black man. All of which, to my mind, adds to the strength of the song, rather than detracts from it - however uncomfortable it may or may not make us.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 08 May 09 - 04:53 PM

I saw a lot of old school racism in southeast Texas in the 1940's and '50'. I know what it is. I've always believed that it was well to remember inappropriate behavior so that you knew what it was when you beheld (or heard of) it. In a historical context, a lot of traditional folk material, along with compositions of a few years back, would not pass the P.C. test of today. That was as far as I took it.

It was mostly an intellectual exercise until I was sitting with my four-year-old grandson last week, reading from an old story book that had been in the family. The first section was from Joel Chandler Harris ("Uncle Remus" stories). I soon realized that the only way I could relate the story was by editing the material as I went, line by line, and altering the minstrel show dialect. When was the last time anyone saw Disney's "Song of the South?" Sometimes, it takes a child to bring it home to you.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 09 - 06:32 PM

Look at Pete St John's "Spirit of the Gael" for an explanatory footnote to "The Rare Ould Times".

Apart from the bits that are just plain witless (shamrocks have souls?), the content is unadulterated fascism.

This land is mine
By ancient Royal decree

He can only mean the kings of Ireland, and any decrees they made certainly didn't allocate any land titles to Gypsies or Blacks. He's saying the land of Ireland is not theirs.

And whatever this may be saying through its godawful muddled grammar:

The times have changed, but Irish ways
Are carved in culture's stone
Our Race as one
When peace is won
And no hero stands alone!

you can't read it as being anywhere to the left of Carlyle or Mussolini.

I suspect the guy isn't actually a committed fascist; he realized there was a lucrative market for this sort of garbage in the American plastic-Paddy scene and being entirely devoid of principles he just went for the fast buck.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: meself
Date: 08 May 09 - 06:52 PM

I'm no authority on the man or his songs - but those bits seem very much like what you get in a lot of Irish songs that I've always understood as expressing pride in being Irish as opposed to being English, and/or expressing nationalistic sentiments that only make sense in the context of perceived oppression by another nation. Nationalism, of course, can always slide toward chauvinism.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Ernest
Date: 09 May 09 - 09:45 AM

I think Catter meself got it right when it comes to the narrators/ singers feelings.

Maybe it is a mistake taking the narrators/singers view for the composers/songwriters. Those ballads often were not freely invented but inspired by a real incident or a person the author had met. In this case it would have been an extenuation leaving out this persons flaws. Certainly the Dublin of the "rare ould times" hasn`t been a purely bucolic place but one where also poverty existed, which often goes together with bad education which often goes together with prejudice like the one shown in the song.

So it might have been honesty instead of racism that made the author include it. It gives the song a realistic edge and keeps it from sentimemtality. Anyone who would have been into writing songs for the fast buck would probably have avoided controversial statements.

Unfortunately I don`t know "Spirit of the Gael". Does it mention Sinti and Roma or Afroamericans at all?

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: goatfell
Date: 09 May 09 - 10:19 AM

maybe the lassie loved blackmen how is this racist, what you're saying is that the reason she ran off with a student chap who was black is wrong but these are just my thoughts, I'm not being racist I don't really care what colour of skin, or which God you beleive in or not all I'm intrested is what the person is like inside.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 09 May 09 - 10:28 AM

"Spirit of the Gael" is on Pete St John's website.

I've never heard anyone sing it, but he's obviously proud of it or it wouldn't be there. It's a direct political statement, and certainly doesn't suggest St John was using an unreliable narrator in "The Rare Ould Times", as Ernest suggests.

He could have written something with the inclusive spirit of "The Freedom Come-All-Ye" or "Both Sides the Tweed". He chose not to.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Ernest
Date: 09 May 09 - 11:23 AM

I still disagree with the thought that it is a direct political statement. If so it would have been contradicted by the line "the gargle dimmed me brain".

And "Spirit of the Gael" while far from being a great song does not say anything negative about Sinti and Roma or Afroamericans (or other groups of people).

The biography part of Pete St. John`s website says that after moving to the USA he

"...became deeply involved in the Peace Movement and International Civil Rights before returning to his native city of Dublin in the late 70's.

Finding the face of his city greatly changed he began writing songs in a very distinctive and unique style depicting the social conditions around him. Redundancy became the core element of his work and the city soon recognised his talent with the major folk artists recording his songs with great success."

This does not sound like it is meant as an direct political statement. To me it sounds mor like the realization that the narrators character does have his prejudices.

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:30 PM

right on Ernest.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 06:13 AM

The way I heard that song was...some folks say that a TRAMP won't steal but I caught three in my corn field I'm on my way, I'm going back to Alabam.
One had a bushel, another had a peck one had a roasting ear tied around his neck I'm on my way...

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 02:10 PM

Right, Kendall. I don't know if that way was original with Cowboy Copas or not, but that's who I first heard sing Alabam' somewhere about 1960 or 61.   I even had the privilege of hearing Cope do it from the stage of the Grand Ol' Opry at the Ryman. Wonderful memories. . .

It wasn't until years later when reissues of the old stuff became more common that I heard Frank Hutchison do Coney Isle. I heard that and thought, Whoaa! Cowboy Copas did a direct "lift" for Alabam'. I have not researched as to whether Coney Isle was original with Hutchison in 1927 or whether he got it from someone else, but he sure didn't sing tramp in Coney Isle.

Point is though, that back at the time we were listening to Copas, we couldn't have known the history of the song, at least most of us couldn't. Our late friend, Dr. Bill McNeil, would certainly have known, but the average person like me had to wait until the reissues came out for the light bulb to come on.

You can hear Hutchison at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdILtctzofs and Copas at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Rku2HjUFqU That's especially nice, as it's a great recording of a LIVE performance, not just a recording set to pictures.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 02:33 PM

The first time I ever heard that line, it was "hippie"... it was several years before it dawned on me that it was originally a racial line.