BS: Triage, or 'where am I'

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: olddude
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 10:23 AM

Here there and everywhere

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 05:06 PM

Glad you're here.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 05:37 PM

"Progress already."

I wouldn't bank on it. What's true is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: olddude
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 05:42 PM

Most of the time I forget where I am

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 07:28 PM

But in science nothing is certain..

What's true is true.

Still work to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 11:35 PM

Always a little wary when I or anyone thinks we know what is 'true.'

Loaded words, 'true' and 'truth.'

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 04:46 AM

We had a history teacher at school who never gave anyone more than 8 out of 10 for a piece of work, no matter how good. It made a mockery of the ten-point scale. Likewise in language, having words we're wary of using is a shame. I like "true" and use it a lot. Anyway, I know what's underlying this, of course, so let me say without fear or favour that evolution is real. It's a true phenomenon! We also have a theory for it which is very good at trying to get closer to the truths therein. That's what science is all about, trying to look for what is really true. Of course, there is one area of human thought that routinely misuses the word, We call it religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:31 AM

I quite agree, Janie. Declarations of Truth make me uncomfortable, especially in a scientific context. Finding that when you challenge such statements you just find them repeated over and over again without further justification doesn't help.

Steve Shaw
Of course, there is one area of human thought that routinely misuses the word, We call it religion.

Just so.

I'm not sure that I've got the energy to reopen that debate. If I have, I'll start a new thread. My main intention was to draw attention to the new softer, kinder, gentler Steve Shaw compared with the one I'm used to.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:46 AM

In the bad old days, when I worked for a living, I never gave anyone a maximum score in appraisals - even someone who was excellent in every way 'only' got, e.g. 4/5 or 'very good' rather than 'excellent'.

My boss for seventeen years, a man I held in very high regard, always said that you should never give full marks, no matter how good someone is because, by giving the top mark, you remove the employee's motivation to try even harder, and that everyone, no matter how good they might be at their job, is capable of doing 'better'.

Makes sense to me - obviously! 👍

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:49 AM

I was fervently hoping that you wouldn't reopen the debate but I felt the need to be fearless in putting our exchanges in this thread on an honest footing. 😉

Suffice to say that my declaration of truth in the matter to hand was not intended to be made in a scientific context. I regard it as a truth irrespective and independent of science, an irrefutable natural phenomenon. Now had I said that the theory was true, or any aspect of it, you could justifiably have had me on the ropes. Theories try to get us closer to the truth, but at the end of the day they're just our attempts to explain nature.

OMG, "only a theory..." Aargh! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 02:06 PM

Thankfully there are several "Breeze Shooting" threads where members are thoroughly enjoying their ongoing disagreements, and I can stay out of their way and let them do so without me.

It's just that too often, any "ongoing disagreement" reminds me of the old pattern of fixed [I said "decided"] positions being repeated and nobody listening. Said another way:
there is "listening to," and there is "listening for." I am certain Wysiwyg is well acquainted with the distinction, judging from her posts.
It is very convenient and expedient to "listen for." There, one listens for words from others as a cue to launch into one's fixed statements, and to repeat them emphatically.
"Listening to" can be a real inconvenience because one cannot "listen to" without making oneself receptive. In my experience, receptivity is NOT passive, however quiet it appears: I find it is really hard work to accept and receive from a place of tranquillity. For me, to let somebody else in, to allow them time and space, to pay attention to them and to stay vigilant and alert to what they communicate, and to stay tranquil and calm, takes concentrated, sustained effort and it is a lot more difficult than it looks.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 05:22 PM

What you may see as fixed positions being stated along with hands clasped over ears may not be quite as clear-cut as you think. It could be that you are, in a way, doing the same thing yourself by not looking a little deeper. I admit freely to having a settled position on God and religion. Not so much so on politics, a moveable feast if ever there was one, and history, on which my knowledge is shaky. I'm way too slow on the uptake face-to-face in argument, but I'm in my element here because I can express myself in a measured manner and revise my posts before sending, which can be hours after someone or other has got my gander up. But I'm probing all the time and trying to find out what makes other people tick (in one or two cases, it pushes patience to the limit). There's more to everything here than meets the eye. Sticking around here is seriously nerdish, but it's intriguing nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 12:27 PM

Why do we have to be prophets, with or without honor? Look, if you have a prophet's vocation, I will leave you to it. I don't find it easy to listen, as stated earlier, but I have also learned the hard way that if I do not listen, I am likely not to be listened to.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 03:09 PM

Was that directed at me? As a matter of interest, I find that you're very listenable to!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 03:44 PM

That's kind of you, Steve, not directed at you or at one individual though. In the end, my fear is that I will start mouthing off and saying something I wish I could take back.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: olddude
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 04:24 PM

Steve won't care he and I use to always argue and pick on each other, but he knows he is my buddy.. Pick away

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 11:47 AM

As to where am i, for one day I was on the outside and could not even look in. Whenever I logged into a public computer (the only kind I have access to) it refused to bring up Mudcat even with the URL in place. Now the computer brings it up as though nothing had happened.
Um, nothing else to report.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 06:18 PM

Mudcat has been offline Keberoxu, seems to be working again.

I thought perhaps someone had self detonated in admin, but all is well. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Apr 16 - 02:59 PM

growing up is hard to do sometimes. Had another sleepless night of it. Good to wake up and find you all here. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 08:34 AM

Steve Shaw
But I'm probing all the time and trying to find out what makes other people tick

Not in my experience you aren't. You state things to be categorically true then hurl insults at anyone who dares to question you.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 12:18 PM

No I don't! And not "things," just evolution!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 01:49 PM

Not much probing or trying to find out what makes other people tick there.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 01:51 PM

How's about what makes people pricks there?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 05:35 PM

A couple of years ago I might have said that about Snailie, Greg. But now that I'm the new, milder me, I just sympathise with his rather sorry lack of warmth. Maybe he'll grow out of it, just like you and me!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 07:36 PM

Just a thought, guys:
This thread started with Keberoxu sharing some very personal feelings; that led to a period of very gentle and thoughtful exchange. I won't say that the thread is a total loss yet, but we've somehow got back to a go-round, much as in, what, a year or more ago, about the exact terminology that's appropriate for expressing the understanding that there is very solid evidence for the reality of evolution. Can some of the parties here see themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 07:49 PM

My first post mentioned Wysiwyg and a post of theirs from a thread sometime back. My conscience is nagging me to quote that post on this thread, so anyone can see why I put the word "triage" in the thread title.   The date was 4 Oct 2008.

[quote]
The secret of surviving in the ministry -- to always keep yourself healthy enough to remain a step ahead of the crowd so you can help them when they need it...because one of our favorite sayings is, "They know who to call." But another one is, "They prefer the hope to the reality." Eventually, as we get older, if we survive, we learn to take both the hope AND the reality.

A case in point. I have twice now offered some seriously-reality-based thoughts to an individual I am thinking of today, who prefers not to listen at the moment. That tells me that this individual is not yet at the place where their own "smarts" have gotten them into enough trouble that they can tell the difference between their hopes and a real, solid upward path. And that's fine -- because the day that person realizes that they need to listen up, they will recall what I said and/or my phone will ring. Till then I have my hands full of the last one who needed to call. And so it goes, around and around. (And of course sometimes I'm the one calling others when my "smarts" wear thin.)

Several times a year I get e-mails, calls, or in-person indications that whatever I said years ago finally kicked in, and usually an apology for not listening. The acknowledgement is nice because it updates me on what their next level of of help/need may be, but the apologetic mindset helps them, not me; after I hear them process their thoughts about this, I just tell them to pay out that line, that kind of slack, to someone else when they get the chance. My mom taught me this pattern: we laugh and laugh when I call to tell her what lesson from her parenting kicked in "yesterday."

Community. It has its own triage built in, because not everybody can listen and accept at the same time. Good thing, too, or we'd all be overwhelmed and panicked at the same time!
[endquote]

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 07:51 PM

Speak kindly to Snail, frogprince. Some of us are actually trying.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 02:36 PM

Just did some forum research on what's new with Wysiwyg, until this moment I had not realized -- being rather new here -- how much upheaval and crisis there has recently been in her life.

No wonder her participation here is limited at the moment. Sending her positive thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: mg
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 03:16 PM

I am not sure what you mean by triage. To me it has a military meaning which is very dismal and has four groupings, not three.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 03:32 PM

Just posted, quoting another thread, and a post from Wysiwyg. I don't know Wysiwyg but I don't believe she is in the military; sounds as though she is a pastor's spouse. So her point of reference must be the helping professions in general, and the ministry in particular; it is she I was quoting when I chose the word "triage."

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 04:51 PM

Some of us are actually trying

Very!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 05:08 PM

...you mean, very trying ?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 05:11 PM

I thought triage was something that happened at our medical centre to stop us from bothering the real doctor!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 07:22 AM

Yes

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 08:05 AM

A couple of weeks ago I said "Hi Steve, does this mean we'll be able to talk about evolution and the nature of science without you resorting to comments about slime trails?".

To be fair, Steve hasn't mentioned slime trails but apart from that, declarations of Truth and personal attacks. Can't really see much difference between the new softer, gentler, kinder Steve and the old one.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 09:04 AM

You can't improve on perfection, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 09:42 AM

WYSIWYG is well known to long-time Mudcat members, and if she spots this thread will no doubt speak for herself. I suspect connectivity issues at the retirement house, and logging on with a tablet is not as easy as staying logged on with a computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 10:33 AM

That's my Steve! Stick to the same old same old. Saves you ever having to think or, horror of horrors, admit you're wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 10:36 AM

That isn't very nice. And you appear to be stalking me over two threads just a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 11:08 AM

TheSnail, do you have anything to contribute or are you simply interested in getting up Steve's nose?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 12:09 PM

Getting up my nose doesn't usually work. I'm a fool to myself sometimes by responding.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 01:01 PM

Dear moderators: some posters have objected to the word "triage" in the thread title. Actually I can take or leave the word. So I leave it to your judgment: should you find that the thread title is more acceptable without "triage" in it, feel free to alter as you see fit, thanks -- original poster

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 01:43 PM

Where am I has a short, clinical answer today: depression, the kind that requires medication. I am on meds, have been for years, and need them more than ever.

The warning sign got me yesterday:
Listening to music hurts. Normally music makes me feel better. When the same feel-good music makes me feel worse instead of better, that adds up to depression.

Obviously I know my way about this territory. It has been a number of years since this kind of hurt made itself felt. Invariably it is old repressed post-traumatic emotion; it was so before, and it is so now. Of course there are present-day triggers, I'm going to keep those private for the moment.

Whether I like it or not, something deep is surfacing in order to be dealt with and healed. If it's anything like my past depression cycles, it will last a while, it will require attention, and it will be temporary, giving way to something different. I guess I am as ready for it as I'm going to be. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 01:52 PM

keberoxu, you sound as though you know how to deal with your depression which is a good thing, as it can be overwhelming at times. (My niece suffers from it) Have you got support from friends and family? And is your doctor helpful?
Wishing you all the best, and hoping you feel better very soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 06:29 PM

Let's keep talking about music!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Andrez
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 06:49 PM

Well for all its bright hopes since my earlier post, this thread also seems to have gone downhill like so many others after all. What a shame. Hope you are getting all the help, support and hugs you need to get through your current situation Keberoxu.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 07:38 PM

Andrez, thanks for the sympathy and good wishes; and maybe instead of "what a shame" we should think of this as an inclusive thread, that is, inclusive within the policy change about BS/below-line threads at Mudcat. Only members can post on threads below the line; all members are welcome to post on this one, including the group of members whose clusters of posts bring to mind a short story by James Herriot.

Yes, you know where this is going, because you remember that this author (a pen name, as some readers know) was a veterinarian, God be good to him. Or is that, Dog be good to him? Anyway, I first saw this short story in the collection of James Herriott stories about dogs, "James Herriot's Dog Stories."

"A Triumph of Surgery" is the story in which an eccentric, wealthy widow must be parted from her boon companion, a Pekingese. They have to be separated because she is slowly killing the dog by overfeeding him. The only thing for it, is to bring the Pekingese to the veterinary surgery for fourteen days and keep the widow at her home away from the dog. The story title comes from the widow's exclamation when, two weeks later, she is reunited with her thoroughly healthy dog.

There was no surgery, of course. Nor is food forcibly withheld from the Pekingese. He is free to help himself to the food given, at their feeding time, to the other dogs. But at first he is so out of it that he cannot even move, so the vet keeps him well hydrated, giving him plenty of water; since the dog is listless, the other dogs (residents, some of them) give him one sniffing over and leave him in peace.

When the Pekingese actually feels well enough to take an interest in solid food -- this takes a few days and nights on liquids -- then the vet checks him over, making sure the dog is healthy enough in every other respect, and lets him out into the fenced areas of the converted property where the vets have their surgery, and where the other dogs get fresh air and exercise. A week or so of that is all it takes to bring the dog back to life.

"A mass of dogs, hurtling round and round the lawn..."
"....he began to whimper when he heard the dogs in the yard. When I opened the door, [he] trotted out and was immediately engulfed by Joe the Greyhound and his friends. After rolling him over and thoroughly inspecting him, the dogs moved off down the garden. [He] followed them....
"From then on, his progress was rapid. He had no medicinal treatment of any kind, but all day he ran about with the dogs, joining in their friendly scrimmages. He discovered the joys of being bowled over, trampled on, and squashed every few minutes. He became an accepted member of the gang, an unlikely, silky little object among the shaggy crew, fighting like a tiger for his share at meal times, and hunting rats in the old hen house at night. He had never had such a time in his life."

pp. 20 - 22, copyrights in the 1970s. New York, St. Martin's Paperbacks (the anthology)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 08:39 PM

keberoxu, I hope that relaxing and rolling around a bit with the shaggy individuals here helps you a bit in coping. I've been just to the borderline of clinical depression myself, but family members have had more serious struggles.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:17 PM

Dunno about the rolling around bit 😉 but I thoroughly echo that sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 06:54 AM

keberoxu, Been there, done that. Hang in there, things will get better.