BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?

Subject: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 06:47 AM

Is this old and dead and just cherry picking or is it sound?


??????????

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 07:20 AM

I wonder if DNA testing might shed some light? Could one test samples of indigenous native American peoples and compare them to those of the European areas whence the supposed migrants originated?
I remember some interesting scientific data about the inhabitants of Orkney and Shetland and the Vikings. It appeared to show that most of the present Scots up there have no Viking DNA at all. My late father would have been disappointed. He came from the far north, and always swore he had Scandinavian blood (very blond and blue-eyed) from his 'Viking ancestors'.
Given the navigational and sea-faring skills of the Polynesians for a start, it's not impossible to imagine they crossed vast stretches of ocean.
I think the artefacts found (as mentioned in the link) are most interesting, with their differences to known types of tool from Native American finds.

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 08:55 AM

The thesis of European migration to the American continent appears to be sound. However, the problem with DNA testing is that the subsequent history of those European colonists is unknown. Did they leave descendants whose DNA can be found in present-day Americans? Or did they colonize and then die out?

There's modern research from special air-to-ground observations in North America that Vikings (for example) reached further south than previously suspected. But what happened to them - did they leave DNA traces in local inhabitants, or did they leave, die out, etc.?

It's a fascinating topic. There's a whole set of modern research papers, based on group DNA testing, which challenges the history of Celtic/Roman/Saxon history as set out by Bede - i.e. the Celts were driven out of the body of England by the Romans and, when the Romans left, the Saxons poured in. However, DNA group tests suggest that the pre-Roman inhabitants of England were related more to the Germanic tribes of Europe, that the Celts were more in evidence in Cornwall, Wales, etc., and that there is very little evidence in archaeology, of Celts in the main body of England.

All interesting stuff, and ripe for good, heated arguments!

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 09:07 AM

With you on most of that Will. The link suggest Europeans getting across the pond much earlier than the Vikings - possibly pre-Clovis. Looks like cherry picking to me. What, for instance was European boat building like around 15,000 BC?

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Stu
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 09:44 AM

"and that there is very little evidence in archaeology, of Celts in the main body of England."

The Celts (if you must) are found all over these isles, and the evidence for the existence of Celts in modern England is well supported by the archaeology and by early literature; the Celts (Britons) were still present in Wessex at the time of Alfred and are mentioned in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. Meanwhile, Celtic artefacts and burials are found everywhere; Lindow Man was a Celt, the Battersea Shield, numerous La Tene Beaker burials... the list goes on.

A look at Sykes' "Blood of the Isles" shows that our ancestors on these islands are predominantly neolithic and probably older, and the genetic traces of Roman, Saxon, Viking etc are small, and they were absorbed into the indigenous population. Culturally however, the influences of Celtic, Saxon and Viking culture gave rise to a unique art form that was practiced all over these islands but is best seen in the illuminated manuscripts such as Lindisfarne.

It's fashionable to give the English a kicking over their lack of cultural heritage, when in fact they have forgotten or ignored their own heritage, especially their Celtic heritage which is still seen in place names, the artifacts in their museums, stories and legends. It would be good if the English could embrace their Celtic heritage more fully and perhaps appreciate the common heritage we all share on these islands.

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 12:33 PM

That article from the Smithsonian is four years old. There is likely some discussion of it if you want to look at scholarly (peer review) journals for essays, book reviews, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 01:57 PM

Clovis points have been found in Clovis, New Mexico (duh!) and in Virginia, along the banks of Chesapeake Bay. A polar projection overlaid with the maximum glaciation of the last Ice Age (ca. 18,000 BCE) will show the possiblity that people following the ice could have visited North America.

As for boats, I very much doubt that they weren't available, as dugout canoes or logs lashed together at the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 08:03 PM

I havent read the book. But, is this the normal route to publish research claims like this one, or would it be more credible if first presented through a research peer review process -if that has not been done?

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 08:12 PM

And, yet another theory:

From a year ago 

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 09:05 PM

"However, DNA group tests suggest that the pre-Roman inhabitants of England were related more to the Germanic tribes of Europe,..."

I postulate that the Germanic Tribes indeed did invade "Britain", more than once, the most successful being in 1066 (to present), all paid for by the Romans. Many Roman archeological finds have been made in the recent decades in England but MY thought is that these were introduced by the Germanic victors of such invasions as acquired from the Romans, although some may be from a true Roman settlement facilitated by the Germanic Tribes invasion. However, I again postulate that the Romans financed these ventures with gold and goods. To expound on my suspicion would take pages. I have read much over the years but to attempt to actually give a modicum of credence to my "hunch" (which it what it is without far more research) is insurmountable for me as I am a lazy sod.

I have since, more or less, given up that quest and studied the history of the invasion of North America since the mid 1400s as it directly affects me at present... a work in progress and the sheer volume of information available with the advent of the internet is as astounding as it is daunting and terribly unsettling.

I hope that made sense. Kind of difficult to sum up so much in such few words.

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 01:04 AM

Ed, it depends. That book may have been the result of a Ph.D. dissertation, and if lucky, the newly-minted doctor was able to revise it and produce a publishable book. It is put out by the U of California Press, one clue leading to that conclusion. Theses and dissertations are often times the accumulation of several course papers on a given topic, massaged together into a larger topic and a longer document.

It's nice if you can get papers published as you write them (for classes), but it isn't always possible. I published a couple while working on my master's degree and that was apparently fairly unusual. (I didn't publish my thesis, it wasn't long enough to be a book.) Not publishing them makes it easier to use them in your dissertation, then you don't have to worry about so many citations (citing yourself). So, waiting isn't all that unusual.

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 06:00 AM

Columbus never found America, it was never lost it was always there!

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 03:19 PM

Following the Clovis points are great clues. What was tragic was their awful timing. An impact event in Eastern Canada, is what greeted the Europeans as far south as Virginia and challenged their survival in the extreme. It makes me wonder how Yellowstone kept civilization at bay in western north America. It might explain some things about Mesa Verde and the like.

On another minor note , it is my hunch that Neanderthal genes were carried to North America by some of the Europeans that could only be expressed by back breeding or incest in early isolated communities.

roughly speaking
There are tests that can tell you how much Neanderthal you have in your genes. If European, the percentage is above 0. In Africa it is 0.



;-) has anyone noticed that some European women slowly turn into pre Columbian fertility symbols ?

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 08:35 AM

I plucked my copy of the book from the shelves and have started to re-read it.

One thing in the introductory chapter (where the terms are defined, etc.) is that expedition after expedition, since the 1930s, have found zero Clovis-type points in the postulated ice-free corridor from Beringia through Alberta. Nor have Clovis-type points been found in Siberia.

People wander, people migrate (witness now!). With the maximum spread of ice and the resultant decrease in sea levels more than one way would have opened up. I see no problem with people coming to North America via several routes and methods. I would even suggest that it's likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 10:51 AM

If they had boats, they would almost certainly have been of one of three types.

Type 1, raft. Generally rafts are cumbersome and difficult to use against prevailing currents and winds. They almost certainly would not have been using sails.

Type 2, dugout vessels, either single or multiple hulls, lashed together. Again, no sails. Much easier to paddle. Note the Polynesian voyages for equivalent distances. The Basque peoples have been noted voyages for a very long time.

Type 3, skin boats, either curraghs or bull boats. Relatively easy to construct, capable of voyaging. Within the capabilities of Neolithic humans. Used in Asia, Europe and North America. Prototypes for canoes and similar boats. Note the Brendan voyage for a long voyage in this type of vessel. They are still in use in various parts of the world.

Yes, such a voyage is possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 11:29 AM

I first heard of this theory a good decade or so ago..

The proposition was that west coast Europeans followed the hunting and fishing across ice masses..
Paddling boats between the ice, and draging the boats over the ice.

This was long before Florida Disneyland was such a magnet for European tourists..

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 10:12 AM

THAT is it!! If we could only find that neolithic Disneyland our questions would all be answered!

The "Frozen" exhibit might be interesting, with real smilodons and mammoths.

Subject: RE: BS: Pre-Columbian Europeans in US?
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 05:57 PM

Are there wax pre-Columbian European figurines?