BS: Trump again

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:16 PM

with Sanders in the Senate with a squad of similar minded people and a movement in the country trying to hold a President Clinton's feet to the fire, it might be a better option.

Niow you're talking sense!!! ( Whatever nonsense Ake may come up with.)

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:14 PM

The polls did actually suggest that Sanders stood up better against Trump than Clinton. But I suspect in the actual campaign the media demonisation of him would have kicked, much the same way as it has against Corbyn.

Still, what with Pussgate and all Sanders might have made it. Probably the only chance of a socialist president they'll have. Though making any headway against Congress would have beenn pretty unlikely. As it is, with Sanders in the Senate with a squad of similar minded people and a mocement in the country trying to hold a President Clinton's feet to the fire, it might be a better option.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:34 PM

And as usual, Ake is apparently living somewhere in a parallel universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:33 PM

with the successful efforts to make the party opt for Clinton over Sanders.

That's just practicality and realpolitik, Kevin. While I fervently wish it were otherwise, in the U.S, Sanders had no chance whatsoever of winning the election with the "socialist" albatross around his neck, and President Trumpshit is too horrible an eventuality to be thought of.

Now, why "socialist" shouldbe the kiss of death ( Eugene Debs from my home town never did better than 6% of the popular vote) is a whole other question, but it is what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:15 PM

I agree Mr McGrath, I have always said that Mr Sanders had more chance than Mrs Clinton of beating Mr Trump.....the early polls confirmed that and played into the disgust of the people towards the political establishment.

Unfortunately, for many reasons the media and the Democratic party conspired against Mr Sanders and people here who aught to know better were taken in.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:44 PM

That's really the point I was making - as in the UK with the Labour Party, the core values of the Democratic Party do not appear to be the values of the those who front it and run the party machine. That was demonstrated by what happened in the primary campaign, with the successful efforts to make the party opt for Clinton over Sanders.

It's fascinating to imagine how the present contest would be working out if Sanders was the candidate. I Imagine Trump would have dropped his friend-of the-workers stuff, and be going all out as the defender of the American Way against this Commy. He'd probably have a lot more media support than he has against Clinton. I suspect he'd have more chance of winning too - and no need to offer phoney promises about upsetting the system.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 02:12 PM

distinctions between the two establishment parties, either in the UK or the US are pretty marginal and cosmetic.

In the U.S. - NOT. You're falling into the Amenhotep Trap.

I'm no fan of Hillary Clinton (or Bill for that matter - best Moderate Republican president we've had in the last 50 years) but they're not representative of the core values of the Democratic Party.

Perhaps this current debacle will have the positive result - ably assisted by Bernie Sanders - of reminding the Dems what they historically stand for.

One can hope, anyway-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 02:03 PM

In fact it was pretty evident that those who would term themselves feminists in the US were on the whole more likely to be for Bernie Sanders than for Hillary Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 01:28 PM

Disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:48 PM

If you base your choice simply on gender or imagine everyone who opposes your choice is a misogynist, you would certainly qualify as "illogical and dogmatic"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:20 PM

"illogical, uncritical, dogmatic, and poorly informed"

No, you're describing yourself, Ake, when it comes to the Democratic Party in general and Hillary Clinton in particular.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:10 PM

The trouble, the distinctions between the two establishment parties, either in the UK or the US are pretty marginal and cosmetic. When the party grassroots erupt and pur Corbyn in place, the establishment gangs up to destroy him. The same for Bernie Sanders.

Voting for Clinton is marginally better than for Voting for Tony Blair, or George Bush, but margins matter. And Trump is something else.

Here is the most accurate portrayal of Trumpery I've seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:55 AM

Democrat every bit as much as Republican

More of Ake's false equivalency, Kevin. I expected better.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:24 AM

They've been betrayed and abandoned by the whole political establishment, Democrat every bit as much as Republican. There's no good result on offer in November. It's just that one of the outcomes is a great deal worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 10:25 AM

They feel betrayed and abandoned because they have been betrayed and abandoned,

Indeed they have been, Kevin - by rich buggers like Trump and the Republicrap Party which they are falling over each other to vote for so thay can be more effectively betrayed and abandoned yet again.

That's where the stupidity comes in.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:23 AM

But you were talking about interviewees generally...oh, never mind...😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:18 AM

"Mr Trump speaks of..."

Whatever Trump chooses to say in the course of the election campaign is only relevant if you believe him. The test for that is to look at what he has said at other times, and what he has done in the course of his life. And he doesn't pass that test.

I could let you have the Eiffel Tower for an incredibly low price, aken. How can you afford to turn down a bargain like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:54 AM

Why on earth would I misuse the word Steve, you are the one who habitually does that.

In the interview "equally" would have been completely out of place as there was only one interviewee?
Don't even think about telling me what I meant to say, you cannot even control your own posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:46 AM

Lighter....That description could just as easily be levelled at supporters of Mrs Clinton...given her record in office.

"illogical, uncritical, dogmatic, and poorly informed"

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:43 AM

"Andrew Neil is a well informed interviewer and commentator who appears to treat interviewees with equanimity regardless of their political leanings."

That's what you said. You clearly meant "equally," "fairly," "in the same way" or "even-handedly." You misused "equanimity." That much is certain. I care not a jot, to be honest (which is more than what you're being), and it's entertaining to watch you try to wriggle out of it, but I would be obliged if you could refrain from trying to belittle me while you're at at.

Actually, I care not a jot about that, either, come to think of it, as it's you. Isn't life amusing?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:38 AM

"Poorly educated" obviously doesn't mean stupid, but it can very well mean illogical, uncritical, dogmatic, and poorly informed.

Trump loves the "poorly educated."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:58 AM

Nice post Mr McGrath, but it you believe sections of society have been abandoned by a corrupt political system, why vote for a continuation of establishment politics?

I'm sure that you agree foreign policy is at the present time of the utmost importance.

Mr Trump speaks of drawing closer to the other major world powers in an attempt to stamp out terrorism, especially the obscene scourge of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism. Mrs Clinton advises a return to the blame game and Cold War threats

Our society is about to change and our political system must also change.....the West no longer controls the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 07:53 PM

"Poorly educated" doesn't mean stupid. No more than poorly fed or poorly dressed or poorly housed. All things which are true of a lot of people who are expected to be likely to vote for Trump from what I have read and seen.

And they won't be doing so because they are stupid but for the kind of reasons Michael Moore eloquently explained in that film. They feel betrayed and abandoned because they have been betrayed and abandoned, and angry and desperate to do something to get back at the system that has betrayed and abandoned them.

And true enough there are also a lot of people who don't fall into that category who are also planning to vote for Trump for very different and much nastier reasons. Which is what Hillary Clinton presumably meant when she made that ill-advised crack about half of the Trump supporters as being "deplorables". Ill advised, but accurate.

But "stupid" is a pointless insult to throw around in politics. Stupid people are just as likely to be on the right side as clever people, and clever people are just as likely to be on the wrong side as clever people.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 06:05 PM

"Equanimity"............"mental or emotional stability or composure, especially under tension or strain; calmness; equilibrium."

I think Mr Neil is an extremely good and composed interviewer, even when tackling the most difficult "subjects"

Wouldn't IT BE EASIER FOR YOU JUST TO BUY A DICTIONARY?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:53 PM

just because people are feeling angry and desperate doesn't mean they have to be stupid.

Thjey don't HAVE to be, Kevin, but most of the Trumpists most assuredly ARE.

Don't forget that Trump "loves the poorly educated" (direct quote) and they love him as well.

God Help AmweriKKKa.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:44 PM

I didn't say either Neill or Portillo were stupid, which would b a stupid thing to say. I said I'd not be surprised if they might think they knew more about the Syria situation than they actually do. A good few clever people seem to delude themselves that way. After all, unless I'm very much mistaken, both those people backed the Iraq War at the time. (Which Michael Moore did not - much more unpopular position in tye States than it was in the UK.)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:30 PM

"Equanimity?" 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:10 PM

Although I had no time for Mr Portillo's policies, I doubt that anyone could questions his intelligence.
I listen to radio quite a bit and follow his contributions on "The Moral Maze"
Andrew Neil is a well informed interviewer and commentator who appears to treat interviewees with equanimity regardless of their political leanings.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:05 PM

I see they've switched Michael Moore on Chennel 4 to 11pm Maybe they got confused, what with the clocks going back one hour tonight...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:01 PM

But surely anyone with the least regard for Trump has to have a degree of partiality to hot air ballons.

Anyone who claims to have a real understanding and adequate knowledge of the situation in Syria has to be regarded as deluded. I think I missed the interview you mentioned aken, but I doubt very much if Michael Moore would have claimed to having those things, though I can perhaps imagine the other two doing so. Claiming I mean, not having.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:38 PM

I heard Mr Moore being interviewed by Andrew Neil and Portillo on BBC TV.....I was amazed at his lack of knowledge regarding the situation in Syria and politics in general.

The guy is a hot air balloon.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:26 PM

For UK Catters, I've just noticed that "Michael Moore in Trumpland" is on Channel 4 at 10pm tonight (Saturday).

I see Trump has tried sticking out ads with a chunk of the film where Michael is imagining how great pissed off workers might feel when voting for Trump, and why they might feel that way. Leaving out the next bit where he goes on about how bad they will feel if he gets elected and they rapidly find out all his promises have been lies, because that's what he does.

Big mistake, since the ads are only too liable to steer people seing them into looking at the film itself.

But I imagine Trump may be assuming his voters are too stupid to realise that they can do that. Even bigger mistake - just because people are feeling angry and desperate doesn't mean they have to be stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 09:13 AM

Well that's the long and short of it I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 07:51 AM

"We need neither giants not pigmies" You're being a bit sizeist there, Steve, whatever way you spell pygmies. All sizes are needed.
.....................
I've just been watching Michael Moore's latest opus, "Michael Moore in Trumpland". It's basically an hour or so of him on stage rapping about Hillary and Donald and stuff. Right now it's available on YouTube. Amazing man. (No, he doesn't appeal to everyone, but then there are benighted souls who don't appreciate Marmite, there's no accounting for tastes.)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 07:22 AM

I need your advice like I need a hole in the head, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 03:24 AM

Don't worry to much about the spelling Steve, concentrate a little more on the content.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 07:38 PM

Pygmies, damn you, spellchecker.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 07:37 PM

We need neither giants nor pigmies. Well-educated people don't need to be led by the nose. I doubt very much that either Jefferson or Lincoln were actually that great, though, of course, distance lends enchantment to the view. We can't hold our leaders to account because our system deliberately keeps us ignorant about politics (it would far sooner spend huge amounts of time telling us what to believe about irrelevancies such as God, etc.). The key to democracy is not to select charismatic leaders. If history has taught us anything at all, it's that. Instead, it's to have a well-educated, involved and vigilant electorate. Exactly what the current political systems in our countries are frightened to death of. That's why we have Tories in power and why Trump has any supporters at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 07:22 PM

Lanfranc,
I believe it takes a 70 year old atheist to carry the mantle of moral authority with a foundation of wisdom based on history to teach candidate's and the public that domestic and foreign policy are separate from nasty bits.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Lanfranc
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 06:41 PM

As Paul Simon wrote many years ago, "Every way you look at this you lose". We're it not for my atheist proclivities I would say "God help us". IMHO neither Trump nor Clinton is worthy of the mantle of Lincoln and Jefferson. In a world where we need giants all we get on both sides of the pond is pygmies.

When our grandchildren end up paying jizya it will be too late to regret the media bias and inadequate self-serving and/or deluded politicians who negated 1400 years of progress. I'm glad I'm 70 and not 17.

But I'm only an aged Brit, what do I know?

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 05:39 PM

Pussy Riot's video "Make America Great Again".

It's rude, but personally, I'm more offended by Trump than a music video.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 05:05 PM

FBI reopen the Clinton e mail enquiry.


Story here.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 09:52 PM

That crap Ake posted is a bunch of statements but there isn't a straight line between any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 07:33 PM

McGrath, I'm sure "a number of people" won't vote for Hillary simply or largely just because she is a woman, but all the thoughts and reactions I'm hearing first hand indicate to me that it will be so small a number as to be of little or no significance. I do think she will gain substantially more "gender card" votes than she will lose. {And please, I'm not meaning to imply that women will, wholesale, be voting for gender; certainly not with the comparison between these candidates).

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 07:01 PM

I imagine the fact that Hillary is a woman is one major reason a number of people will be voting for Trump.

It works both ways I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 06:13 PM

And, yet another perspective 

"WHO will uphold the torch of openness in the West? Not America's next president. Donald Trump, the grievance-mongering Republican nominee, would build a wall on Mexico's border and rip up trade agreements. Hillary Clinton, the probable winner on November 8th, would be much better on immigration, but she has renounced her former support for ambitious trade deals. Britain, worried about immigrants and globalisation, has voted to march out of the European Union. Angela Merkel flung open Germany's doors to refugees, then suffered a series of political setbacks. Marine Le Pen, a right-wing populist, is the favourite to win the first round of France's presidential election next year."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 03:54 PM

So the US political establishment is not corrupt?
Ever heard of "
Common Good"?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 01:15 PM

From the same New York Times article:

"You go through any neighborhood and see how many Trump signs there are and how many Hillary signs there are, and I guarantee you it's not even going to be close," said Bill Stelling, 44, of Jacksonville, Fla. "The only way they've done it is by rigging the election."

I would suggest to Mr. Stelling that it's more a case of Clinton supporters being cautious about overt displays of support for fear of Trumpers' reactions. Nobody wants their house burned down for the sake of a yard sign.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 09:50 AM

And the cockroaches take to the streets!!!

***

Jared Halbrook, 25, of Green Bay, Wis., said that if Mr. Trump lost to Hillary Clinton, which he worried would happen through a stolen election, it could lead to "another Revolutionary War."

"People are going to march on the capitols," said Mr. Halbrook, who works at a call center. "They're going to do whatever needs to be done to get her out of office, because she does not belong there." "If push comes to shove," he added, and Mrs. Clinton "has to go by any means necessary, it will be done."

****

Mr. Swick, by his own estimation, also owns "north of 30 guns," and he said Mrs. Clinton would have trouble if she tried to confiscate the nation's constitutionally protected weapons. (Mrs. Clinton has said she supports the Second Amendment, but she favors certain restrictions, like tighter background checks for gun buyers.)

"If she comes after the guns, it's going to be a rough, bumpy road," Mr. Swick said. "I hope to God I never have to fire a round, but I won't hesitate to. As a Christian, I want reformation. But sometimes reformation comes through bloodshed."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/28/us/politics/donald-trump-voters.html

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 11:25 AM

basing ones selection of president purely on gender is not a very sensible thing to do

But basing it on ignorance, fantasy, lies, wishful thinking and crackpot theories as you and The Trumpists do IS?

And BWL, you owe a sincere apology to the mustelidae.