BS: Trump again

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 11:08 AM

" Mrs Clinton is a proven Hawk who has supported military action in at least three abortive interventions, Iraq, Libya, and Syria and the last thing America or the world needs at this time is a warmonger."

   That is a subjective interpretation of her actions and voting history, not a "proven fact".
In Iraq, G.W. Bush and his minions asserted that they had clear evidence that Saddam had WMDs and was prepared to use them! He was president and supposedly had CIA information as proof. That caused many senators who would NOT have otherwise to approve the invasion. She has since said she regrets having voted that way on falsified data.

In Libya, the evidence WAS clear that Khadaffi was brutally treating his own citizens AND that he was complicit in crimes against Americans.... Now, you may not consider those situations were serious enough to warrant military force, but unlike Iraq, Mrs. Clinton had direct access to the intelligence data on what was happening. It hardly make her a "warmonger" to decide to help.... and do remember: the basic decision was still Obama's.

   In last year's debate with Sanders:
HILLARY CLINTON:" Well, first, let's remember why we became part of a coalition to stop Gaddafi from committing massacres against his people. The United States was asked to support the Europeans and the Arab partners that we had. And we did a lot of due diligence about whether we should or not, and eventually, yes, I recommended, and the president decided, that we would support the action to protect civilians on the ground. And that led to the overthrow of Gaddafi.

I think that what Libya then did by having a full free election, which elected moderates, was an indication of their crying need and desire to get on the right path. Now, the whole region has been rendered unstable, in part because of the aftermath of the Arab Spring, in part because of the very effective outreach and propagandizing that ISIS and other terrorist groups do."

"Hawk" is not a precise term... it is merely an indication of a 'leaning' toward meaningful intervention when needed, but it gets tossed about as if it's the same as 'warmonger'....

ALL this is interesting, but practically irrelevant when comparing her with Trump, who has already used the term "bomb the shit out of them" as HIS simplistic approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:36 AM

Bernie Sanders is no hawk. Neither is Noam Chomsky. Both of them, in common with any number of people who have worked for peace all their lives agree that Trump would be a disaster,and Clinton has to be elected.

The only reason to imagine that Trump might be less likely to wage war is that on occasions he has said he would stay out of trying for regime change in Syria. On other occasions he's talked about waging total war. The pont is, nothong Trump promises means anything whatsoever. If his lips are moving it means he's lying.

Though maybe that's going too far. I think it likely when he promised that as President he would authorise a return to torture, and that water boarding was just a soft option , he probably meant it.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:21 AM

"A rigged election" is nothing more than Trump's preemptive excuse for the embarrassing loss he's about to suffer and his low-information supporters, who lack the intellectual vigor to think for themselves, just parrot his lunacy. These accusations of fraud are the most irresponsible, unpatriotic words I've ever heard spoken from a presidential candidate and it's all done to assuage his fragile ego. He doesn't give a FF about anyone but Donald Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:49 AM

Trump was suggesting in early August that the voting would be "rigged" Even then he must have considered his chances of being elected were diminishing, if not actually none existent.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:38 AM

D, I watch us politics very closely the main large news media have a huge bias towards the establishment even the ones who support the Republican Party.

I know they say that ALL publicity is GOOD publicity, but in Mr Trump's case that is certainly not correct. One only has to look at the political threads on this forum to see that even amongst so called progressives there is a bias towards the political status quo come election time, no matter how much they may chunter on about change when they only need to talk the talk.

The status quo is deep corruption and manipulation, personified by the Clinton Dynasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:02 AM

Trump is now insisting that the election will also be rigged "at the polls" by hordes of fraudulent voters in Hillary's employ.

Trump is urging his followers to show up in numbers at polling places (with their friends and families!) to challenge people they think look suspicious and keep them from voting.

Think about that one.

Marco Rubio and other Republican office-holders have denounced Trump's claims.

Eighty per cent of Trump's followers believe that the election may be rigged against him, and half say it *will* be.

More:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-stokes-fears-of-voter-fraud/

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 06:57 AM

the use of obscene amounts of money to buy most of the media is undemocratic to say the least.

I wouldn't disagree, but it is only part of the story. Particularly in the early stages of the campaign Trump got a lot of air time to present himself without being subject to criticism. The Guardian said this was estimated it would have cost 2 billion to buy that time, which is of course far far more than was actually spent. Then when it comes to media you need to look at how the time is being spend.   There has been a massive focus on Hillary's email but almost no mention of the huge volume of emails deleted or mislaid by Bush when he was in office. The republicans are not whiter than white when it comes to concealing things via emails.

So when it comes to media bias, I reckon there is more bias in Trump's favour than Hillary's. Oddly enough, he doesn't agree. Strange, that.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:12 AM

Sorry PWL!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:09 AM

"Not liking Hillary or agreeing with all her policies & decisions are one thing (there's seldom a political figure with a perfect record or universal appeal)... ".......True, but Mrs Clinton is a proven Hawk who has supported military action in at least three abortive interventions, Iraq, Libya, and Syria and the last thing America or the world needs at this time is a warmonger.

"Foreign affairs" at this particular juncture are of the utmost importance.

PDL...I accept your assessment regarding the "Rigging" controversy, but the use of obscene amounts of money to buy most of the media is undemocratic to say the least.....here in the UK there is a cap on the amount of money which may be used for party political purposes during an election.
The actions of the Democrats in undermining one of the two Democratic Party candidates in the Primaries is in my view symptomatic of the corruption at the heart of US politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 10:57 PM

The possible "rigging" that I am referring to... involves the role of the media and the political establishment of both political parties.....

That's not rigging an election. Rigging an election means precisely one thing: using fraudulent voting practices to alter the outcome of an election. It does not mean using less than scrupulous means to influence how voters perceive a candidate. That's called biased journalism or dirty politics, not election rigging.

If it doesn't have to do with the casting or counting of ballots, it's not election rigging. Period. Full stop. Mr. Trump is using the term entirely incorrectly to encompass entirely different areas of perceived political impropriety.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:36 PM

Trump's tweets about that add a little bit more. He apparently hated it. Warms the cockles, it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:19 PM

Jaysus, Jeri, you've cheered me up no end!😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:01 PM

Second debate

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:53 PM

Ake said: " involves the role of the media and the political establishment of both political parties.."

Oh indeed! Like stating clearly what 30 years of accusations toward HER have actually shown.... and what 20-30 years of factual, historical data on HIM have shown.

Not liking Hillary or agreeing with all her policies & decisions are one thing (there's seldom a political figure with a perfect record or universal appeal)... but treating months of frantic mud-slinging by Repubs who simply want another Scalia or two on SCOTUS as grounds to vote for a slimeball egomaniac is a lame answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:26 PM

It's VT to me ....numpty.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:49 PM

Whereas you are congenitally incapable of engaging seriously.

And it would be VN, not VT.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 04:12 PM

That must be the most inane post on this thread.....including Greg's
profound contributions :0)......only kidding Greg I know you are a sincere believer in the good ole USA's political system, and I respect that.

I don't respect cowardly trolls like V T, who make no effort to engage seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 01:08 PM

It amazes me that Ake doesn't have the sense to just shut up after he has painted himself into such a ridiculous corner. The nonsense and paranoia he presents is easily as bizarre as the nonsense Trump spouts.

Silence is Golden (so shut up and be rich!)

Someone, take away his keyboard, please!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 12:58 PM

Of course it's a ramshackle and gerrymandered system. That's why a minority of Republican voters can control both houses of Congress, though the Republicans get more votes.

But if Trump goes down in flames, and drags the Republican Party down with him, that's his doing, through what he has done and said.

As for Bernie Sanders and the Democrat establishment, equally obviously they will have done everything they could to stop, as their opposite numbers in tge British Labour Party did, and are still doing, to Jeremy Corbyn. But what else could you expect? That's done and dusted, and the only way the movement backing him will get anywhere is with a victory against Trump, and a running battle with Clinton's administration.

Trump winning offers nothing but a kind of national auto-da-fe.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:46 AM

What's an alienist? :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 10:18 AM

Ake, tell your story walking. And get thee to an alienist.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 02:17 AM

It amazes me that after what was done to Mr Sanders in the Primaries and the role of money in the process, anyone can believe in the "integrity of the US political system".

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 02:13 AM

The possible "rigging" that I am referring to BWL is much more subtle than that and involves the role of the media and the political establishment of both political parties.......as Rap says its really all about power and money..........democracy comes a pretty poor third.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:26 PM

To rig a national election, there first has to be a national election. There's no such thing. US elections are strictly local affairs, run by local officials. About half of those officials are Democrats and half are Republicans. Rigging the election in Clinton's favor would require rigging thousands of local elections, many of which are run or overseen by Republican officials.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:14 PM

Well Greg, we all KNOW that the Democrat establishment rigged the Primaries

No, Ake "we" don't.

so it is not beyond belief that they would combine with the Republicans to rig the presidential election.

Yes, Ake, it is.

The media has been arse licking Mrs Clinton for the whole campaign,

Actually, no, Ake, they've been giving The Trumpshit more coverage and the benefit of the doubt all along- until very recently.

Your ridiculous bullshit, fantasy nonsense and ignorance of the facts is getting really tiresome and annoying.

From above:

Other supporters at Trump rallies have gone even further, attacking the political system as a whole and even threatening violence.

Rather like our own Ake, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:16 PM

Michael Moore also suggested, sort of half seriously, Trump actually had no thought of winning, and doesn't want. He said it was about making sure his TV career didn't go down the drain.

I think he was watching Citizen Kane, one of his favourite movie. Kane of course run a populist campaign to get elected, and doesn't win, so Trump thought he could do better.

It's got nothing to do with politics. I doubt very much if he had any notion it could get this far. It's a kind of joyride that got out of control.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:07 PM

Well Greg, we all KNOW that the Democrat establishment rigged the Primaries.....so it is not beyond belief that they would combine with the Republicans to rig the presidential election.
The media has been arse licking Mrs Clinton for the whole campaign, especially trying to bury her misdemeanours in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 05:48 PM

More Republican cockroaches ginning up the Trumpist cockroaches:

WASHINGTON — Donald J. Trump on Sunday intensified his claims that the presidential campaign is "rigged" against him, sowing doubts about the integrity of the country's democratic process even as his own running mate and other Republican leaders sought to assure voters they viewed the election as legitimate.

"The election is absolutely being rigged by the dishonest and distorted media pushing Crooked Hillary — but also at many polling places — SAD," Mr. Trump wrote on Twitter on Sunday.

Newt Gingrich, the former speaker of the House, and former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani of New York, both advisers to Mr. Trump, used television interviews on Sunday to suggest that Democrats tend to cheat in elections, accusing them of counting votes from dead people. And Senator Jeff Sessions of Alabama, Mr. Trump's closest congressional supporter and a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, has warned "they are attempting to rig this election."

Other supporters at Trump rallies have gone even further, attacking the political system as a whole and even threatening violence. To Democrats and a growing number of concerned Republicans, the gestures of intimidation, just over three weeks before Election Day on Nov. 8, are an ominous sign of how Mr. Trump and his backers might conduct themselves.

NY TIMES, OCT. 16, 2016

HEIL TRUMP! HEIL TRUMP!   HEIL TRUMP!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 01:09 PM

When it comes to which candidate is more likely to destroy us, I'd sooner trust the judgement and relevant experience of Noam Chomsky than yours, aken. And of course Chomsky is strongly critical of Clinton - but he sees her as a far better choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:10 AM

Here's the latest from your hero, Ake:

PORTSMOUTH, N.H. — Escalating his criticism of Hillary Clinton's debate performances, Donald J. Trump came to a state battling a drug epidemic and suggested without any evidence on Saturday that his opponent had been on drugs during their second debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:06 AM

I fear the proven warmonger's finger on the nuclear button more than I do the finger of a "social illiberal"

We know you do, Ake - but that fear is based on fantasy, bullshit, and delusion.

the "liberal" media

Thank you Tricky Dick Nixon.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:04 AM

I wonder how Trump knows he's "really good at war."

Of course, he also "knows more about ISIS than the generals do," so that might explain it. He's probably also seen "Inglourious Basterds."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:34 AM

And as for Trump's boast, recently reiterated by his pathetic stooge Chris Christie, that he's the only one who can fix the U.S. tax system because he knows how to screw it so effectively, does anyone believe that he has the attention span to read and understand our very complex tax code. He just turns it over to a bevy of tax lawyers and accountants and says do your best (or worst, as far as people who actually pay U.S. taxes are concerned).

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 06:48 AM

Trump is an ignorant buffoon who I'm certain couldn't pass an 8th grade Civics class and is totally unfit to serve in any political office I can think of, let alone POTUS. I come to that conclusion not due to any mythical "liberal media conspiracy" but from a trail of readily available audio and video images that he's left,and still leaves, since the eighties when he first started to promote himself as a media star. The depth of his shallowness is easy to perceive for anyone whose judgment isn't tainted by extreme right wing bloggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 06:00 AM

Both candidates have severe flaws, but that is a reflection on the US political system.

Regarding foreign policy ,Mrs Clinton has much previous form for doing extremely stupid things when in office. Her stance on Iraq, Libya and Syria being typical examples.
I fear the proven warmonger's finger on the nuclear button more than I do the finger of a "social illiberal", which is the reason for most of the hatred we see on these pages.

I'm sorry to say the "liberal" media rule the US and to a lesser extent the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 04:33 AM


"I'm really good at war. I love war, in a certain way, but only when we win



This immediately reminded me of:

On the quilted battlefield.of soldiers
Dazzling, made of toy tin,
The big bomb, like a child's hand
Can sweep them dead just so to win.


Putting someone.who behaves like a petulant child in charge of the big bomb who likes winning wars is not an encouraging thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 06:48 PM

Ake.

The Trumpshit HAS no ideas worth the name on Foreign policy in the middle east and North Africa. He's an ignorant idiot. See http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/08/politics/republican-national-security-letter-donald-trump-election-2016/

As for "Islamic Terrorism which may yet destroy Western civilisation"(emphasis mine) please do get that psychiatric help which you desperately need.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:15 PM

"The idea o fTrump commanding service men and women, sending them into battle is sickening"......of course it is, WAR is sickening.
It would be just as sickening and much more likely that they be sent into battle by Hillary the Hawk.

Mr Trumps ideas on Foreign policy in the middle east and North Africa would ensure co-operation between the great powers to defeat Islamic Terrorism which may yet destroy Western civilisation, Mrs Clintons ideas take us back three or four decades to a time when a nuclear holocaust looked imminent. Her record in making war is second to none.

The US electorate seem to be moving towards the "least worst" option....I agree with them, but my priority would be to avoid mutual destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 04:51 PM

Trump to Howard Stern in 1997:

"[Avoiding venereal disease] was my personal Vietnam. I feel like a great and very brave soldier."


Trump at Fort Dodge, Ia., Nov. 12, 2015:

"I'm really good at war. I love war, in a certain way, but only when we win."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:36 PM

The idea o fTrump commanding service men and women, sending them into battle is sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:25 PM

I think the real reason such a large number of the US electorate support Mr Trump is that the opposing candidate is so obviously untruthful and hawkish regarding foreign policy.

Any supporter of Trump has to have a remarkably high level of tolerance for untruthfulness. Including on foreign policy, where he still persists in the claim that he opposed the Iraq War, in face of cast iron evidence that he did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:09 PM

Somehow, I don't see the logic in trying to combat "the proven corruption of both political parties" by attempting to elect someone as personally corrupt as Mr. Trump.

It's a bit like trying to clean up a corrupt police department by replacing crooked cops with hit men and dope dealers.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:44 PM

I agree, Stu. Mr. Obama is a fine orator but he may be only second best in his own family.
Here it is

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:23 PM

Ake, your anti-Clinton delusions appear to be unhinging you completely. You make less and less sense, and make increasingly fantasist and irrational statements as time goes on.

As for your nuclear war fantasy I think you really should seek psychological help.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:18 PM

Michelle Obama's speech last week was the perfect riposte to the blatant misogyny and emotional and intellectual immaturity of Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 11:14 AM

I think the real reason such a large number of the US electorate support Mr Trump is that the opposing candidate is so obviously untruthful and hawkish regarding foreign policy.

Another reason of course is the proven corruption of both political parties, both of whom are heavily financed by and represent corporate interests. They make a mockery of the democratic system.

How long can the US voters continue to ignore the leaked e mails which prove the political corruption at the core of the establishment and the Clinton Foundation.
They no longer even attempt to deny the validity of these e mails, but instead "blame the messenger"
While diverting attention to the personal flaws of the opposition.

The situation is complete madness......A Clinton victory means a return to a "cold war mentality" and probably hot war just down the line.
If that happens, the UK's nuclear weapons are stored only a few miles from my house.....right against the highest centres of population in Scotland ......we will be one of the first targets, so I and the Scottish people have a vested interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 10:26 AM


The Republicans were happy to back Trump whn he looked like a winner - any hatred that may now exist only showed its head when he became an embarrassment.

Wrong - he wasn't accepted happily by mainstream moderate Republicans (there are still a few). But as the momentum grew the Duck Dynasty trailer court crowd piled on, and there you have it. Many of the rest of the party members decided they had to settle for this candidate, how bad could it be; many of them still absurdly support this cretin because they can't imagine voting for another party.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 01:49 PM

Dewey, I think...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:11 PM

Its too soon to call just like another time in history when the morning paper said CLINTO DEFEATS TRU
MAN

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 02:34 PM

To be fair, once you cut through all the crap, detritus, meaninglessness excrement and shitty lies you will find Trump is indeed the actual crap you just cut through.