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BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

akenaton 14 Mar 17 - 03:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 17 - 03:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 17 - 04:17 AM
Teribus 14 Mar 17 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 17 - 04:38 AM
Iains 14 Mar 17 - 04:56 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 17 - 05:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 17 - 05:26 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 17 - 05:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 17 - 07:19 AM
bobad 14 Mar 17 - 07:55 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 17 - 08:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 17 - 08:06 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 17 - 08:21 AM
Raggytash 14 Mar 17 - 09:24 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 17 - 10:00 AM
Teribus 14 Mar 17 - 10:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 17 - 10:49 AM
Greg F. 14 Mar 17 - 10:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 17 - 10:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 17 - 11:03 AM
Raggytash 14 Mar 17 - 11:51 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 17 - 12:17 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 17 - 12:22 PM
bobad 14 Mar 17 - 12:33 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 17 - 12:52 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 17 - 01:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 17 - 01:27 PM
Greg F. 14 Mar 17 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 17 - 02:35 PM
akenaton 14 Mar 17 - 03:01 PM
Greg F. 14 Mar 17 - 03:13 PM
akenaton 14 Mar 17 - 03:29 PM
Greg F. 14 Mar 17 - 03:37 PM
bobad 14 Mar 17 - 03:39 PM
akenaton 14 Mar 17 - 03:45 PM
akenaton 14 Mar 17 - 03:47 PM
akenaton 14 Mar 17 - 03:52 PM
Greg F. 14 Mar 17 - 04:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 17 - 04:28 PM
Greg F. 14 Mar 17 - 04:37 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 17 - 05:08 PM
Greg F. 14 Mar 17 - 05:12 PM
Teribus 14 Mar 17 - 05:24 PM
bobad 14 Mar 17 - 05:45 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 17 - 06:06 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 17 - 06:09 PM
Teribus 15 Mar 17 - 03:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Mar 17 - 03:50 AM
Teribus 15 Mar 17 - 04:23 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:10 AM

Sorry, wrong thread....A


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:11 AM

It was primarily your posts that were being removed and your intervention in threads that got them removed or closed, ake. If I remember rightly you are also banned from posting on a regular basis. Speaks volumes.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:17 AM

Steve, Bobad has supplied the best available stats.
The FBI figures and those for Canada are quite unequivocal.
The figures quoted in his link for Europe complete the picture.
In Europe and Britain special protection has to be provided for Jewish schools only.

Why is it so important to you to deny the persecution of Jewish people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:22 AM

"If I remember rightly you are also banned from posting on a regular basis. Speaks volumes." - DtG

Unlike yourself Gnome, Akenaton as far as I can see from his posting history has been a regular and frequent contributor who has not taken any "holidays" by adopting a GUEST identity nor has he been banned from doing anything by anybody. He is a person who you CAN have a conversation with, a person you CAN discuss things with even although opinions on various subjects and facets of subjects are diametrically opposed. With your little gang the opposite is the case. The format with you and your "crowd" is simple any point put that you disagree with (Irrespective of any detail that supports it) is subject to flat denial followed by personal abuse.

Also your memory is faulty with respect to the first part of your last post:

"It was primarily your posts that were being removed and your intervention in threads that got them removed or closed, ake"

Don't think that it was Gnome. The main culprits in getting threads closed and on a few occasions entirely deleted were "The Musktwats" (three people posting with one identity), Shaw, Carroll, Greg F, Raggy and yourself. For four years now that little gang, of which you are most certainly a member, have stalked, bullied, mobbed and tried to run at least two members from this forum. Thankfully you have been spectacularly unsuccessful in this venture. The latest tactic and attempt at achieving your goal is via the introduction of fatuous and inane twaddle which according to Shaw will apparently drive us all from the forum in a matter of a couple of weeks (Fat chance). I am so glad that throughout the course of his life he has learned to live with a stream of what must have been, on numerous occasions, bitter disappointments, because in this cause he is going to be disappointed yet again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:38 AM

"Why is it so important to you to deny the persecution of Jewish people."
Why do you persistently distort what people have to say Keith
The Israel regime's policy of using the Jewish People as human shields to protect themselves from charges of war crimes has led to a distorted picture of what is and is not Antisemitism and totally taken it out of context
This - from one of the leading Jewish commentators, sums up what has given rise to today's situation - mind you, his opinions have probably earned him the title of "self hating Jew" to people like you
Jim Carroll


DOOM-MONGERING
What U.S. Jews Don't Get About European Anti-Semitism JONATHAN FREEDLAND
01.14.13 2:30 PM ET
My inbox is giving me a queasy sensation of déjà vu. It's filling up with anguished claims that British schools are banning the teaching of Hebrew. As it happens, no such thing has occurred. The government has simply proposed that elementary schools be required to teach one of a list of seven officially recommended languages: French, Spanish, German, Italian, Mandarin, ancient Latin, or Greek. Hebrew is no more about to be banned than is Arabic or Russian. Jewish schools will still be able to teach Hebrew. It's just that, if the move goes ahead, they'll also have to teach French, Spanish, or one of the other approved seven languages.

The feeling of déjà vu arises because six years ago I received an email titled "In Memoriam." It announced that British schools had banned the teaching of the Holocaust, lest Muslim pupils be offended. The email declared this to be "a frightening portent of the fear that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving into it." Spurred into action, the New York Post published a lament by Barry Rubin, denouncing "UK Schools' Sickening Silence."
Sickening it would indeed have been. Except not a word of the accusation was true. The teaching of the Holocaust was and remains compulsory in English schools. (Indeed, a long-running scheme in operation then and now ensures two seniors from every high school in the country visit Auschwitz on trips subsidized by the U.K. government.) The story was a fabrication, arising from a research study that had found?and criticized?a single teacher in a single English school who had avoided selecting the Shoah for specialist coursework because she suspected a resistance to the topic among some Muslim pupils. Government ministers condemned the action of that single teacher and reiterated that the subject was a mandatory part of the curriculum.

Nevertheless the email kept coming, circulated and recirculated. In almost every case the point of origin was the United States. I remember drafting a standard reply, which I would cut and paste and send to concerned American friends, putting the record straight. The myth proved so persistent, however, that in 2008 the education secretary felt compelled to take the apparently unprecedented step of writing to every ambassador in London, refuting the In Memoriam email and reiterating that the teaching of the Holocaust was "non-negotiable."
Forgive all the detail, but this is becoming a regular task for a British Jew: reassuring our American friends that, no, we are not living in a new dark age and, no, the lights are not going out all over Europe. We are getting used to the fact that U.S. Jews seem ready to believe the worst of this part of the world. In the two cases I've mentioned, many Americans were all too willing to accept that British Jews were about to become latter-day Marranos, driven underground by an anti-Semitic government and its jihadist allies, huddling together to teach their children about the Holocaust in Hebrew whispers.
You'd be surprised how often my fellow British Jews are required to disabuse U.S. friends of such delusions. One leading communal professional recalls a London meeting with an American counterpart, the latter first insisting on a tearful embrace: "You're going through what my grandmother went through in Russia, with the pogroms," he sniffed. Another asked if a Jew like him would be safe walking through the streets of London.
Such fear is fed by emails spreading bogus scare stories, but also by the claim that the British capital has become Londonistan, a sharia-ruled outpost where al Qaeda sheiks preach on every street corner, and by the breathless description of London as "the hub of hubs" when it comes to "delegitimization" of Israel. In this conception, the calendar might say 2013 but the year is forever 1938, with the Jews of Europe on the verge of another catastrophe?and once again too blind to see it coming.
So are those sounding the warning guilty of hysteria? Or are those who dismiss it guilty of a terrible naiveté? The clearest answer can be found in that most Jewish of practices: the drawing of distinctions.

It's useful, for example, to distinguish between Western Europe on the one hand and Eastern and Central Europe on the other. There are troubles for Jews in both, but they are not the same and they are too often misleadingly conflated. So, yes, in Western European countries the tension between established Jewish communities and emerging Muslim ones can be perilous. The most extreme case is surely last year's multiple homicide?the victims, three children and a rabbi?in Toulouse, apparently by a jihadist maniac. Others have long been alarmed by the case of Malmö, Sweden, a city whose 45,000 Muslims make up 15 percent of the population and where Jews have been on the receiving end of persistent anti-Semitic attacks?a fact denied by the town's Social Democratic mayor, who instead criticized Malmo's Jews for their failure to condemn Israel. As he put it, "We accept neither anti-Semitism nor Zionism in Malmö."
Beneath these two headline cases are a hundred other lesser points of friction, often on campus, situations where Jews and Muslims have clashed, frequently over the politics of the Middle East. A consistent trend, noticed by those who monitor anti-Semitism, is a surge in anti-Jewish hatred whenever the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians escalates.
Leave Western Europe, to head east or more recently south, and the picture alters. Here the threat to Jews is of a much more familiar variety. The far right, white and bellicose, has surfaced with a vengeance especially in those former communist nations where ultra-nationalism was once repressed. Witness the rise of Jobbik, a Hungarian neo-fascist party that is the country's third largest. One Jobbik M.P. recently called for all of Hungary's Jews to be registered on a list, as a threat to "national security." The resonance of a list of Jewish names in Hungary, where 500,000 Jews were rounded up and murdered during the Nazi period, hardly needs to be spelled out.
In Greece, the Golden Dawn party concentrates its fire on the Asian and African immigrants whom it blames for the country's economic woes. But like so many rightists of the old school, when it comes to Jews, Golden Dawn can't help themselves. According to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, "Golden Dawn's leader, Nikolaos Michaloliakos, denies there were gas chambers or ovens at Nazi death camps and has a penchant for giving the Nazi salute." The party spokesman recently rose in Parliament to read out a passage from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
But here's where distinctions matter. The Greek fascists speak of Israel as a "Zionist terror state," but that sets them apart from many of their comrades on the European far right, who have become late converts to the cause of Israel?chiefly, it seems, as a way of confronting Muslims. The British National Party leader Nick Griffin is fond of boasting that his was the only party that supported Israel during Operation Cast Lead in 2008?9, while activists in the rival English Defence League have grown oddly fond of the Israeli flag.
Tellingly, this habit can lead many of those U.S. doom-mongers, constantly warning of European Jewry's dire plight, to be rather selective about which threats they see. While they can be relied upon to highlight any Islamist clash with Jews, they often stay hushed about those ultra-rightists who have no love for the Jews but who, for their own reasons, have decided to declare themselves pro-Israel. So there was no email circular about Michal Kaminski of the Polish Law and Order party, even though Kaminski began his career in the National Rebirth of Poland movement, inspired by a 1930s fascist ideology that dreamed of a racially pure nation, and even though in 2001 Kaminski upbraided the president for daring to apologize for a 1941 pogrom in the town of Jedwabne that left hundreds of Jews dead. (Kaminski said there was nothing to apologize for?at least not until Jews apologized for the suffering they had inflicted on the Poles.) Presumably the email circulators hesitated to condemn the Polish politician because he had branded himself as pro-Israel.
Similarly, Marine Le Pen, leader of the Front National, found very few ambassadors willing to meet her when she paid a 2011 visit to the United Nations in New York?save for Israel's then U.N. envoy, Ron Prosor, who later had to apologize for giving the impression that he was happy to turn a blind eye to Mme. Le Pen's record because she had made the right noises on Israel. For some, it seems, anti-Semitism is only worthy of strenuous opposition when it is combined with hostility to Israel or comes from a Muslim source.
Which brings us to another crucial distinction. Episodes that Americans see as evidence of growing European hostility to Jews are often understood by European Jews to be criticism of Israel?in fact, not even criticism of Israel itself, but rather of a specific strain of Israeli policy: what we might call the Greater Israel project of continuing and expanding settlement of the West Bank. When European governments either abstained or voted for the Palestinian upgrade to semi-statehood at the U.N. in November, plenty in Israel and the U.S. saw that as yet another example of age-old European hostility to the Jews. But very few Jews here saw it the same way. We understood it for what it was, an attempt by governments avowedly sympathetic to Israel's right to security to revive the two-state solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Their calculation might have been wrong, but it was not anti-Semitic. Yet one regular on the academic anti-Semitism studies circuit tells me that U.S. speakers repeatedly cite examples of anti-Israel discourse as if they were synonymous with instances of anti-Jewish racism. A scholar in his own right, he is infuriated that his colleagues fail to make this critical distinction.
Above all, those stubbornly committed to the view of twenty-first century Europe as one large Auschwitz-in-waiting have a one-eyed view of Jewish life on this side of the Atlantic. They rightly report the chilling news of an apparent ban on religious circumcision in Germany or the move to outlaw shechita, the ritual slaughter required to produce kosher meat, in Poland?but fail to report when those decisions, initially taken at a lower level, are swiftly overturned.
More importantly, they fail to notice the intriguing paradox of European Jews' current position?that there are dangers, but also great triumphs. Take Britain. Jews here can feel unease at the tenor of the national conversation on Israel?a newspaper cartoon here, a politician's turn of phrase there?but they also enjoy a Jewish life that is in many ways richer than ever before. Limmud, the annual festival of Jewish learning that has gone global, began here, while Jewish Book Week has become London's biggest literary festival. The Booker Prize for 2011 was won by a novel about Jews, The Finkler Question, written by a man who has chronicled the British-Jewish sensibility better than anyone, Howard Jacobson. British TV currently airs not one but two highly rated sitcoms depicting Jewish family life. Meanwhile, if the current polls hold till 2015, Britain's next prime minister is set to be the first Jewish leader of the Labour Party, Ed Miliband?who repeatedly stresses the pride he takes in his Jewish roots. Not bad for a Jewish community that, according to the latest census, numbers just over 260,000, less than 0.5 percent of the British population.
This is why the Community Security Trust, which monitors anti-Jewish racism, opens its report with an insistence that "British Jewry should be defined by its success and vibrancy rather than by anti-Semitism." That is true of Britain but also beyond. Mark Gardner, director of communications for the CST, used to compare the European-Jewish situation to a glass that some will see as half full, others as half empty. Now he says, "There are two glasses, one half full, one half empty, and they stand side by side." That sounds sufficiently nuanced to be correct. But don't expect anyone to be putting that message in an email.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:56 AM

Dthe G
"f I either fail to understand something or fail to make something clear I know that I am partially at fault."

HOOOOORAAAAAY! You fiinally get the point. If you don't know what you are saying, and don't understand it when you say it, one could perhaps legitimately ask:- What in hell are you doing here?
You really must have a serious conversation with AKELA CONCERNING YOUR FUTURE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:17 AM

It would be good if you didn't deliberately misrepresent what I've said, Keith. I haven't denied anything. I've simply asked some challenging questions in order to elicit corroboration for an assertion made by bobad. What he says may well be right. But I want to know how that conclusion was reached. So far we haven't got information from anything like "most of the western world," the numbers given from the US are peculiarly low to say the least considering the size of the country and the nature of the alleged crimes and how many of them were prosecuted hasn't been revealed. A hate crime could be anything from murdering a Jew at random in a subway to calling a Jew "yid!" across a crowded bus. Just over a thousand unspecified crimes in the US over a year is hardly convincing evidence in itself of a major problem. If we've now been given the best stats available, as you allege, then all I can say is that they fall well short of confirming the original assertion about "most of the western world."


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:26 AM

Teribus

nor has he been banned from doing anything by anybody

I happen to know different. You could ask him but even if you don't believe me it is still the truth.

Iains

You seem to fail to grasp the concept that communication is a 2 way process. I suspect you get that from your mentor. If I am partially to blame for any communications failure you need to ask yourself where the rest of the blame lies.

As to what I am doing here. Well, meeting Mudcatters from across the globe in real life. Arranging Mudcat events in real life. Contributing useful knowledge above the line. Annoying you apparently. How about you?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:28 AM

Just to be perfectly clear Keith
You with your Jewish pacts of silence and Bobad, who refuses to condemn your debasement of Jews and his associating Israeli war crimes with the Jewish People ? are the only anti-Semites here
Vacuously insulting as ever, I see Iains
Have you really nothing to say?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 07:19 AM

Jim, no-one is discussing Israel so stop trying to make this yet another Israel thread.

Steve,
So far we haven't got information from anything like "most of the western world,

We have figures for Europe, USA and Canada.
They are a very large chunk of "the Western world" and likely to be representative. What major region do you have doubts about?

You have had what you asked for. An acknowledgement would be acceptable.
Or, have you any evidence at all, however trivial or slight, to the contrary?

calling a Jew "yid!" across a crowded bus.

That is no more likely to enter the hate crime statistics than any other BME person being abused across a crowded bus, so that is not a flaw in the interpretation of them.
In fact, Jews are usually much less identifiable in a crowded bus than other BME folk.

Jim,
You with your Jewish pacts of silence and Bobad, who refuses to condemn your debasement of Jews and his associating Israeli war crimes with the Jewish People ? are the only anti-Semites here
Vacuously insulting as ever, I see Iains
Have you really nothing to say?


Yes. I have to say that you are lying.
I have never claimed any "Jewish pact of silence."
That is a made up slur.
I have given Bobad nothing to condemn.

Also, no decent democracy has ever accused Israel of any war crimes.
It is an invention of its enemies, and anyway we are not discussing Israel!
You are obsessed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 07:55 AM

Don't sweat Shaw and Carroll, they are knee jerking just as I expected they would and showing their true colours. Present them with irrefutable statistics and they will claim that that it's not a hate crime because it doesn't fit with THEIR definition of anti-Semitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 08:00 AM

"Jim, no-one is discussing Israel so stop trying to make this yet another Israel thread."
The only possible reason for any rise in Antisemitism is due to Israel's use of the Jewish People in defence of its war crimes - thatat has had an international effects - it's bound to.
How about responding to ewhat the "Self-hating Jew" has to say on the matter?
Everything here is directly traceable to Israel's attempts to block BDS
How dare you attempt to stop that fact being raised - who do you think you are - Donald Trump?
If you start this attempts at censorcship again, I shall get you stopped
You do this far too often.
I'm thoroughly pissed off with being called a liar by someone who is unable to distinguish the difference between truth and lies
If you have any proof of my lying, put them up individually and see how they stand up
"Muslim implants" - a fact - show it wasn't
Child marriage - likewise
Accusations of Jews in Parliament staying silent because ofg their love for the party - same again
You have said them all and have reiterated your filthy accusations over and over again.
You even made up an invisible army of experts to hide behind because you had no other way of getting out of what you said you believed.
Israel is a TERRORIST STATE that has been saved from being put on trial by U.S. vetoes - we watched the result of those crimes on our televisions - we don't need the silence of self-serving politicians to show us otherwise
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 08:06 AM

No axe to grind in this particular argument but the question that springs to mind is what kind of hate crimes are we talking here? I have heard about a lot of shootings and beatings metered out to Muslims. Are the same crimes being committed against other religions? There is a huge difference between calling people names, no matter how nasty, and shooting them.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 08:21 AM

No-one is denying your statistics and no-one is denying hate crimes. The figures you've provided in no way confirm the assertion you made. I'm not moving the goalposts here, simply asking the same question every time. Your US figures are just weird, given the tiny number of offences in such a huge country, and your over-interpreted Aussie figures come from a biased source. Which doesn't mean they're not true, but I note your usual modus operandi (and can predict your response to that). As for the European stats, they are largely just percentages, not numbers, and give us no concept of the scale of the problem. The numbers given for the UK are both low and they contradict your case. Similarly, the Aussie numbers are low. In the context of other types of crime such as robbery, burglary, assault and domestic abuse, you have failed to show that the crimes you're complaining about amount to any kind of crisis. Maybe they do, but you seem to be having difficulty demonstrating that. We need the numbers, and we need to know the nature of the crimes. You simply have not delivered. I'm not being awkward. I have no axe to grind and I detest all hate crime. I'm saying that you made an assertion that you seem unable to confirm, nothing like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 09:24 AM

The day is gloriously sunny here on the Connemara, the broom is in blossom, a sublime yellow. A gentle breeze blowing and I'm sitting in a bar having a pint with stunning views out across the strand to the island.

Wonderful, truly wonderful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 10:00 AM

The sun's battling the murk this end, kind of a metaphor for what's going on here on Mudcat. But, to continue with the metaphor, the sun gains in strength every day and the murk will disappear. I've been emptying my freezer to clear out the ice, long overdue. Found a boneless smoked pork loin three years out of date. I'm going to cook it anyway. Either it'll make good butties or the bin can have it. The blackbirds are currently enjoying a pound of blackberries from 2014. 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 10:42 AM

"I have heard about a lot of shootings and beatings metered out to Muslims."

Really?? Where Gnome? Who was responsible for these shootings and beatings Gnome? Wouldn't be beatings and shootings carried out by other Muslims by any chance would it?

Shaw:
"The figures you've provided in no way confirm the assertion you made."

In what way do they not confirm what bobad stated Shaw? Explain yourself:

"Jews are targeted more than all other religious groups combined in most of the western world today." - bobad

USA:
Anti-Semitic attacks = 52.1% of all reported religious hate crimes
All other combined = 47.9%

Statement made by bobad IS supported wrt the USA

Nothing ambiguous or unclear about it. 52.1% is a greater percentage than 47.9% - True?

"In the context of other types of crime such as robbery, burglary, assault and domestic abuse, you have failed to show that the crimes you're complaining about amount to any kind of crisis." - Shaw

No-one is looking at it "in the context of other types of crime" Shaw - (Nice try at deflecting the argument Shaw but do have a go at "valiantly sticking to the point" in order to stay on track) - and nobody is claiming there is a crisis

Here is the claim once again - "Jews are targeted more than all other religious groups combined in most of the western world today." - bobad

Plain statement of fact - I see no mention of it being of epidemic proportions Shaw, nor do I see any claim there of there being a crisis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 10:49 AM

Steve,
The figures you've provided in no way confirm the assertion you made.

Yes they do.

We have figures for the four countries, all Western, with the biggest Jewish populations plus Australia.
Only Britain showed crimes against against Jews to be a minority, but increasing so fast that they probably are a majority now.
You might dismiss FBI figures as "weird" but they are the official USA figures, accepted and used by all agencies who do not think them at all weird.

your over-interpreted Aussie figures come from a biased source.

Over-interpreted how, and why biased?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 10:53 AM

Interesting to note that you consider the U.S.A. to be "most of the Western World", Mr. T. Strange for a old-style, imperialist King-And-Country sort of fellow, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 10:55 AM

Really?? Where Gnome? Who was responsible for these shootings and beatings Gnome? Wouldn't be beatings and shootings carried out by other Muslims by any chance would it?

Yes, other Muslims as well as some non-Muslims. It really doesn't matter who does it. It is still a hate crime based on religion. Do you think it is any different and should not be counted for some reason?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 11:03 AM

Jim,
The only possible reason for any rise in Antisemitism is due to Israel's use of the Jewish People in defence of its war crimes

Of course it is not. There was anti-Semitism before there was an Israel!

Everything here is directly traceable to Israel's attempts to block BDS

You are obsessed! Nothing here is anything to do with Israel!

If you start this attempts at censorcship again, I shall get you stopped

Good luck with that.

Accusations of Jews in Parliament staying silent because ofg their love for the party

They did not stay silent.
Just like those who complained of misogyny and homophobia they gave full details of their grievances to the Party, which they do no doubt love.
If I have ever said anything different, then quote me.
Good luck with that too, liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 11:51 AM

I have already stated that all such hate crimes are not acceptable.

Context is needed. 1400 crimes of which those carried out on people of the Jewish faith total about 700 is tantamount to SFA in a population of 300,000,000.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 12:17 PM

Crisis, Teribus? What crisis? 😂 If there's no crisis, why are you, Keith and boobs making such a big issue out of it? If those US figures are true then hate crime against Jews in the western world's biggest nation is almost negligible! And of course it's relevant to put the statistics in the context of other crime. The reason you don't want to is that the numbers, at least the ones we've managed to squeeze out of you lot, are so low! And not one of you has yet managed to tell us the facts about the crimes - what kinds of crimes or whether they were prosecuted or merely recorded as complaints. Take this as a rather outrageous conjecture: in the US, which victim of a hate crime is likely to be taken more seriously, a Jewish victim or a Muslim victim? Who is the more likely to complain in an environment in which antisemitism is the issue of the day whereas Islamophobia comes under "don't be silly, now?" Is that really more outrageous than your claim that Muslims attacking other Muslims skew the stats? And once again, Teribus, percentages as opposed to numbers tell us nothing about the scale of the problem. From the evidence so far presented it seems that you're around 50% as likely to be struck by lightning and hundreds of times more likely to be killed by gun crime in the US that be the Jewish victim of religion-driven crime. Lies, damn lies and statistics, Teribus!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 12:22 PM

That should be around 25%, not 50%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 12:33 PM

Good article on the poison of anti-Semitism raging through Europe today in the The Atlantic "Is It Time for the Jews to Leave Europe?"

France's 475,000 Jews represent less than 1 percent of the country's population. Yet last year, according to the French Interior Ministry, 51 percent of all racist attacks targeted Jews. The statistics in other countries, including Great Britain, are similarly dismal. In 2014, Jews in Europe were murdered, raped, beaten, stalked, chased, harassed, spat on, and insulted for being Jewish. Sale Juif?"dirty Jew"?rang in the streets, as did "Death to the Jews," and "Jews to the gas."


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 12:52 PM

In 2014, Jews in Europe were murdered, raped, beaten, stalked, chased, harassed, spat on, and insulted for being Jewish

How many? Were they all murdered, raped, beaten etc. just for being Jewish or did it happen for some other reason and they just happened to be Jewish. If they leave Europe, where is it suggesting the go? The USA where things are, seemingly, just as bad? Poor comment. Poor journalism. Sensationalism just for the sake of it.

In my opinion.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 01:11 PM

No crime stats. We can't judge without numbers. If the numbers are anywhere near as low as you allege for the US and UK I'd say we have a virtually irreducible problem. How many crimes, what kinds of crimes, were they prosecuted or simply recorded as complaints? I know you think we should all be terribly shocked and not question things like this lest we get called antisemitic, but you can't go on like this, and we remember only too well the song and dance you made about a few handfuls of Labour members out of 600,000. You're peddling propaganda only and avoiding the hard reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 01:27 PM

Getting back to something more sensible. I just played 'Constant Billy' through about half a dozen times without a hiccup! Wonder why the title reminded me of someone?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 02:32 PM

Good article on the poison of anti-Semitism raging through Europe today in the The Atlantic "Is It Time for the Jews to Leave Europe?".

Interesting. Have they also got a good article on the rampant Islamophobia raging thru Europe and epecially the U.S. & in the age of Trumpism, is it time for Muslims to flee the United States for safe sanctuary elsewhere? Mexicans ditto?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 02:35 PM

"Of course it is not. There was anti-Semitism before there was an Israel!"
And the horror of the Holocaust tended to put it on the back burner.
You rightists turned your attention to Muslims - they became the new victims of your bigotry
Israel has re-kindled the flames of antisemitism by claiming its State Terrorism to be on behalf of the Jewish people - it vindicates its having done so by inventing New antisemitism - which is criticism of Israeli policy.
I am not obsessed - it's called humanitarianism when you object to seeing Israelis persecuting Muslims just as the Jews were persecuted by the Nazis
Accusations of antisemitism e#appeared within weeks of Corbyn reiterating his support for BDS
Each time those accusations died down, they were reignited by right wing Lablour supporters who returned from meetings with Israeli leaders.
Your shitty - "no decent nation..." shite as a defence of Israeli terrorism is as pathetic as it gets.
These people have remained silent on Israel's atrocities, just as they continued to support Assad when he was filling his torture chambers with opponents, or as Cameron went to pay his respects to the founder of the regime in Saudi while it was administering 1000 lashes to a journalist who spoke out of turn.... or all the other monsters we have sold weapons to or backed up with our support.
That's how "decent" your decent nations are.
Now about all tehse "liesw" I've been telling.
Put them up and let's see how they work out
You described Muslims as culturally implanted to rape under-age girls -fact
You invented a phantom army f supporters who you claim saidf the same thing, yet have consistently refused #to quote them - fact
You claim never to have attacked the Muslim religion yet, in the middle f a discussion on Muslim criminality, you put up as argument a thousand year old Muslim Child marriage as evidence that the Muslim religion = under-age perversion - fact.
At a loss to com up with examples of antisemitism in the Labour Party, you accused the Jewish members of Parliament of refusing to describe the antisemitism
I have put your quotes up to you on all of these claims and will continue to do so as lonng as you go on denying you have made them - fact
I ask again - what lies have I told
Jim Carroll

A JEWISH VIEW of ANTISEMITISM

Alon Ben-Meir - from The Jewish Post
Dr. Alon Ben-Meir is a professor of International Relations and Middle Eastern Studies at the Center for Global Affairs at New York University and is also a Senior Fellow and the Middle East Project Director at the World Policy Institute. Dr. Ben-Meir is an expert on Middle East politics and affairs, specializing in peace negotiations between Israel and the Arab states. For the past 25 years, he has operated as a liaison between top Middle Eastern officials and has been directly involved in various high-level negotiations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:01 PM

The point Keith has been making for months, is that there is a "culture" of Anti Semitism in the left of the UK labour Party.

I have no doubt this is correct as I used to hear anti Jewish sentiments expressed regularly among the left wing people with whom I attended demos and protests in the seventies.

These people opposed the policies of the Israeli Govt vis a vis, the Palestinian question.......but abused all Jews on the fact that they were Jews, regardless of their personal views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:13 PM

The point Keith has been making for months, is that there is a "culture" of Anti Semitism in the left of the UK labour Party

That indeed has been his claim, however it is devoid of any evidence to support said claim.

In the Age of Trump and "alternative facts", this should come as no surprise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:29 PM

Greg I haven't been following this thread very closely, but I'm sure Keith has provided evidence from other Labour members and I have definitely heard the comments which I have mentioned.

As far as most of the Left are concerned it is "easy meat" to blame the policies of the Israeli govt on ALL Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:37 PM

Suggest you try actually following the thread, Ake, before posting gratuitous uninformed nonsense.

And one more time: Nobody here - except idiots like yourself, Bobad & your fellow travellers, have EVER blamed the policies of the Israeli Governemt on "All Jews", or any Jews for that matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:39 PM

Have they also got a good article on the rampant Islamophobia raging thru Europe and epecially the U.S

Yes, there is Islamophobia in the world today but hate crimes directed against Muslims are but a fraction of those directed against Jews even though there are some 1.8 billion Muslims in the world as compared to 16 million Jews. Why do you think that is? Why are Jews leaving Europe in record numbers, for their safety, while Muslims are arriving in Europe for theirs? Anti-Semitic incidents in Britain are at levels never before seen while in Germany attacks on German Jews have increased by 200%. Why is this happening?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:45 PM

Jim, the aims and actions of Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists are not to be confused with the very complicated and nuanced Palestinian /Israeli question.

Islamic Jihadists are dedicated to the overthrow and destruction of any who do not support their cause.....they discriminate against women and butcher homosexuals out of hand.....they are a menace to humanity, a menace which is becoming more dangerous and insidious by the day......how can a devout man of the left like yourself raise his voice in support of such an abomination?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:47 PM

I presume the Israeli govt is composed of Jews Greg?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:52 PM

I think you are going round with a bad lot Greg, surely no need for insults my responses to you are always civil.

Other than the odd bit of banter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:18 PM

I presume the Israeli govt is composed of Jews Greg?

Entirely missing the point as ever, Ake. Willfully or idiotically is open to question.

hate crimes directed against Muslims are but a fraction of those directed against Jews

And your documentation for that assertion is what, exactly, Boo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:28 PM

Another strange assertion

but hate crimes directed against Muslims are but a fraction of those directed against Jews

Have you the remotest idea how many Muslims have been killed in hate crimes against their religion? How many Shia have been killed in Jihads by Sunnis? How many Sunni Muslims killed by Shias? Just because they believe a different version of the same fairy story. Or, because it is Muslim killing Muslim, is that OK?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:37 PM

Or, because it is Muslim killing Muslim, is that OK?


Of course it's OK, Dave - ANYONE killing Muslims is OK for these folks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:08 PM

Nah then, chaps. Time to lighten up. These two clueless chappies (I'll lump them together and call them boob-ache just so you know to whom I refer) are having a desperate go at getting the poison back in. No debate is possible. I'm going to change the subject. They can't complain because they're already off-topic themselves, innit. So here goes.

What have we not talked about recently?

Er, lessee... maybe not footie (even though I'm jubilant about Man U getting beaten by Chelsea last night - where's old Mike when you need to gloat!) Not cheese - already come up in another thread...School dinners, done it already...

I know. Eggs. Don't worry, I won't rehash that Yorkshire omelette joke. I love eggs in any shape or form. Used to drink 'em straight from the shell until Edwina Currie put me off with her Salmonella scare. Used to beat three eggs with a drop of brandy and drink 'em for brekkie when I was at university. Cold hard boiled in a picnic, beautiful. Scotch eggs, glorious. Waitrose do one with black pudding. A little belter. Sunny side up, sunny side down, I don't care if they're a bit snotty. Share, fellers, share. And don't bloody tell me you're allergic to eggs. You'll be getting baseless assertions if you do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:12 PM

Is yer talkin' aboot eggs or aigs, then, Steve?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:24 PM

"Where Gnome? Who was responsible for these shootings and beatings Gnome?"

I suppose answering one question out of three is a marked improvement, now answer the first two, so that we get the context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:45 PM

Another strange assertion

We're talking in the West, but you knew that and are just misrepresenting, as usual, to further your agenda - you should be ashamed of yourself. If you want to bring the Middle East into the discussion then we can talk about anti-Semitism in the Islamic world but I doubt you would like to hear about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 06:06 PM

Before Dave gets a chance to reply, Teribus, I'm going to ask YOU three very serious questions.


1. How do you like your boiled eggs?


2. Do you wear Asda five-pairs-for-eight-quid boxers?


3. We (yes, WE) demand the whole truth about your trouser-drop on Blackpool Tower in 1975, and we (yes, WE) will not accept grubby photoshopped 8x10s.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 06:09 PM

Are you trying to sell me life insurance now, Greg? Pointless, mate - I've made a will and you're not in it! 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 03:09 AM

"Have you the remotest idea how many Muslims have been killed in hate crimes against their religion? How many Shia have been killed in Jihads by Sunnis? How many Sunni Muslims killed by Shias? Just because they believe a different version of the same fairy story." - Gnome

Here is the statement made by bobad that is being discussed, so far the evidence put forward seems to support it:

"Jews are targeted more than all other religious groups combined in most of the western world today." - bobad

What do you understand as being "the western world" Gnome? And could you let us know in which countries in the western world Muslims are being slaughtered wholesale in this Sunni/Shia Jihad to the extent where those countries are being consumed by it?

I see that those challenging bobad's statement have yet to introduce any evidence to disprove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 03:50 AM

No, fair's fair Steve. Teribus did ask some other questions - 4 actually rather than the 3 he states.

Really?? Where Gnome? Who was responsible for these shootings and beatings Gnome? Wouldn't be beatings and shootings carried out by other Muslims by any chance would it?

And I did only answer the last one so here are the other answers.

1. Yes
2. Various places around the world
3. Various criminals
and
4. I already answered.

So, now Teribus, maybe you will answer my question.

Do you think it is any different and should not be counted for some reason?

Over to you.

As to your most recent post, my statement was in answer to poobads assertion that "hate crimes directed against Muslims are but a fraction of those directed against Jews". Do try to keep up.

Eggs - Do you want to hear my egg joke?

Would you like one egg or two?

Just one please. I think one egg is an oeuf.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 04:23 AM

Greg F and bobad are specifically addressing the situation in North America and Europe Gnome, as can be plainly seen from their respective posts so in terms of the discussion what one sect of Muslims is doing to another sect elsewhere in the world is irrelevant apart from demonstrating that they are about 500 years behind when it comes practicing religious tolerance, perhaps like us they will eventually get over it in time. Up until such a time, if they wish to slaughter one another then they'd best restrict their efforts to their own countries.


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