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Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O

DigiTrad:
CRUEL MOTHER
THE CRUEL MOTHER
THE CRUEL MOTHER (4)
THE CRUEL MOTHER 2
WELLA, WELLA


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Clifton53 16 Dec 99 - 12:43 PM
16 Dec 99 - 12:55 PM
16 Dec 99 - 12:56 PM
MMario 16 Dec 99 - 01:01 PM
IceWolf 16 Dec 99 - 01:11 PM
Metchosin 16 Dec 99 - 01:11 PM
dick greenhaus 16 Dec 99 - 01:19 PM
Susanne (skw) 16 Dec 99 - 06:28 PM
Clifton53 17 Dec 99 - 12:45 AM
Phil 17 Dec 99 - 01:03 AM
Metchosin 17 Dec 99 - 01:45 AM
Sandy Paton 17 Dec 99 - 02:17 AM
Bruce O. 17 Dec 99 - 02:26 AM
Susanne (skw) 17 Dec 99 - 05:37 PM
Bruce O. 17 Dec 99 - 06:12 PM
Metchosin 17 Dec 99 - 06:27 PM
Philippa 17 Dec 99 - 06:33 PM
Bruce O. 17 Dec 99 - 08:17 PM
Sandy Paton 17 Dec 99 - 08:24 PM
Clifton53 18 Dec 99 - 12:15 AM
Sandy Paton 18 Dec 99 - 01:16 AM
Susanne (skw) 18 Dec 99 - 07:20 PM
Stewie 18 Dec 99 - 08:05 PM
Stewie 18 Dec 99 - 08:12 PM
Sandy Paton 18 Dec 99 - 10:05 PM
Stewie 18 Dec 99 - 11:10 PM
Sandy Paton 18 Dec 99 - 11:48 PM
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Subject: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Clifton53
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 12:43 PM

I'm looking for the lyrics to a version of this song. I have a tape with the artists unidentified, but it may be called "Doon by the Greenwood Sidie-o". It's not "The Cruel Mother", but instead is about a young girl who falls in love with a knight, and is slain by her brother because the knight neglects to ask him for permission to wed.

The recording I have is by a group, and sung in what sounds like a Scottish accent. The first half is slow, and after an instrumental break is sung at a much faster pace as the girl is slain by her "brother John"

Can anyone tell me who this group may be? I can't find these particular lyrics in the D.T.

"There were three ladies played at ball, Hey wi' the rose and linsey O

Til yon knight came by and bedeviled? them all"

Also " Take me te yon high, high hill Hey wi the rose and lindsey-O

And lay me doon and I'll mak my will

Doon by the Greenwood Sidie-O"

Thanks folks, Clifton


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From:
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 12:55 PM

Creul Mother, Child #20. In DT.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From:
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 12:56 PM

Cruel that should be.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: MMario
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 01:01 PM

searching on #20 (type into the lyrics search box in the upper right corner of this page and hit the "go" button) gives you 4 versions....but I believe from your comments the version closest to what you want is at http://www.mudcat.org/!!-song99.cfm?stuff=Spring99+D+2903188

blue clicky thing


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: IceWolf
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 01:11 PM

Sounds VERY similar to "Rolling of the Stones" which is here in one flavor on DigiTrad. The version I have (on CD) has at least one more verse (which I don't recollect offhand).

"Rolling of the Stones" was also recorded by Bok, Muir, and Trickett, and appears on "the first fifteen years, Vol I" (might be Vol II...)

--IceWolf


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 01:11 PM

Clifton I found your version by clicking on the letter C and going to Cruel Brother, then when an entirely different song comes up about Yarrow you click "entire next page" at the top of the wrong song and up comes your version.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 01:19 PM

Or you can search for #11. Traditionally, many different refrains were used for any particular song and vice versa.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 16 Dec 99 - 06:28 PM

Clifton, the Old Blind Dogs sing 'The Rose and the Lindsey O' on their album 'Legacy' (1995). The words are in the booklet, so I'll copy them out as soon as I've done those Archie Fisher songs ... Christmas break, I suppose. - Susanne


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Clifton53
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 12:45 AM

Thanks again folks, you never cease to amaze me.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Phil
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 01:03 AM

I seem to recall that this was on one of Joan Baez's very early recordings.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 01:45 AM

Susanne.. Its nice to find someone else who is familiar with Old Blind Dogs... I love em!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 02:17 AM

Andrew Rowan Summers recorded, with dulcimer, an Appalachian version (from the Cecil Sharp collection) of the "Cruel Brother" (Child #11) on a Folkways album, years ago. Refrain lines were "I-O, the lily gay" and "And the rose smells so sweet, I know." I've never heard the ballad sung with the "Doon by the greenwood sidey-O" refrain, which I always associated with the "Cruel Mother" (Child #20) instead. I guess I should go back to the first volume of Francis James Child's The English and Scottish Popular Ballads and look it up. But then, you could do that, too! Let us know what you discover.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 02:26 AM

There are no traditional versions with tune in Bronson's 'The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads', #11, with that interlaced refrain, so I suspect that is a made up version based upon Child's #11 C, where Bronson gives the tune as his first for the ballad.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE ROSE AND THE LINDSEY O
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 05:37 PM

Sandy, the OBD song is actually Child #20. I copied the words out today:

THE ROSE AND THE LINDSEY O
(Trad)

There was a lady in the North
Hey wi' the rose and the Lindsey O
And she's fa'an in love wi' her faither's clerk
Doon by the Greenwood sidey O

She's coorted him for a year and a day
'Til it's her great belly did her betray

She's leaned her back against a tree
Thinkin' that she micht lichter be

And she's leaned her back against a thorn
And it's bonnie was the boys she' born

But she's ta'en oot her wee penknife
And she's pit an end tae their sweet lives

She's buried them 'neath a marble stane
Thinkin' tae gang a maiden hame

She's lookit ower her faither's wa'
And she's seen thae twa bonnie boys playin' at the ba'

Oh bonnie bairns gin ye were mine
I wad dress ye up in the silk sae fine

Oh cruel mither when we were thine
We nivver saw ocht o' the silk sae fine

Oh bonnie bairns come tell tae me
Fit kind o' a death I'll hae tae dee

Seven years a bird in the wood
Aye an' seven years a fish in the flood

Seven years a turn tae the warnin' bell
Aye but seven years in the caves o' hell

Welcome welcome bird in the wood
Aye and welcome welcome fish in the flood

Aye an' welcome turn tae the warnin bell
But God keep me oot o' the flames o' hell

[1995:] This song is based on the version found in the Child collection of Ballads # 20. Learned from the singing of The Gaugers. (Notes Old Blind Dogs, 'Legacy')

Yes, Metchosin, I like them very much, though 'Legacy' is the only one of their albums I have, and I haven't heard the new lineup. I particularly liked Ian Benzie's voice, so I'm a bit wary ... - Susanne


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 06:12 PM

In the original J. Deacon issue, 1690's, of the broadside text, "The Duke's Daughter's Cruelty", ZN2495, (26 verses) the interlaced refrain goes:

There as Duke's daughter....
Come bend and bear away the Bows of Yew,
So secretly....
Gentle hearts to me be true.

Child found this late, and it's not in vol. 1 with the other texts of #20, but in the Appendix to vol. 2.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Metchosin
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 06:27 PM

Susanne, with good reason, they also seem to have veered away from the more traditional stuff, which I don't object to but they aren't Old Blind Dogs anymore as far as I'm concerned. I just prefer the music on the first five CDs.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Philippa
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 06:33 PM

UI too have heard the Cruel Mother sung in that way (by Ewan MacColl). But Clifton53 seeks a version of Child#11, The Cruel Brother


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 08:17 PM

The song Clifton53 wants looks like a recent made up version, as I noted above, and probably is to be found on phonorecord, tape and CD only.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 17 Dec 99 - 08:24 PM

That was my point, Philippa. Clifton's quoted verse is not from Child 20, the "Cruel Mother," but suggests, instead, the "Cruel Brother." I suspect someone liked MacColl's rendition of the "Cruel Mother" (Hey the rose and the linsey O) and simply applied the text of the "Cruel Brother" to that tune. It ain't the first time that's happened.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Clifton53
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 12:15 AM

Yes Philippa, it is "Cruel Brother" that I seek,and I think Bruce is right that it is a modern recording, the tape I have of it I received from a friend who taped it off of the Fret and Fiddle Show, in I think the mid-eighties. Also contains another verse not listed on Child #13, as follows, And what will ye give to your brother John's wife? Hey wi the rose and lindsey O A well turned? blade te end her life

Down by the greenwood sidie-O


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 01:16 AM

The Sharp text I once learned had it as:

What will you give to your brother John's wife?
Grief and sorrow the balance of her life.

as I remember it. But you'd better check it. That's just off the top of my head and it's been a lot of years since I verified my recollection.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 07:20 PM

Sorry, Clifton, I wasn't paying attention. I noticed only afterwards this couldn't be the song you wanted. Still, you got me to type out the words! Hope someone will come up with the set you're loking for. - Susanne


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Stewie
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 08:05 PM

The Gaugers, mentioned by Susanne as the source of the OBD song she posted, also recorded a version of 'The Cruel Brother' on their 1975 'Beware the Aberdonian' record for Topic. However, the refrain they use is that in Child #11C: 'Hech, hey an the lily gey' and 'An the rose is ay the redder aye'. There is a note on the record sleeve by Duncan MacLennan: 'The text here is a collation of various versions in Child (No 11) where the tune is also to be found. I cannot readily see which versions have been collated and the comment about the tune can only make one wonder.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Stewie
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 08:12 PM

The rest of my message dropped out after the italics. The command not only stopped the italics, but also the rest of the posting. Should I have started a new para? Just when I thought I was getting the hang of this HTML stuff!

The rest of my posting was: 'I cannot readily see which vesions were collated and the comment about the tune can only make one wonder!'


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 10:05 PM

Archie Fisher recorded the "Heck, hey, and the lily gay" version on his Folk-Legacy recording, now available as a CD (CD-61). As I recall, his source was Tam Spiers of Aberdeen, and his text was collated by Duncan McLellan of Inverness (predominantly Child's version C, with additions from other texts in Child). Archie's original recording was released in 1976.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Stewie
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 11:10 PM

Sandy,

Tom Spiers from Aberdeen was a member of the Gaugers.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rose and the Lindsey-O
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 18 Dec 99 - 11:48 PM

I see. That makes sense, doesn't it? And you're probably right about McLennan rather than McLellan. I might have misread Archie's writing when I typed up the notes to his album. His CD, by the way, adds one additional ballad that we had no room for on the old LP. Mudcatter Kath Westra is playing cello with him on that cut, too. Now she gets a "Folk-Legacy artists' discount" on all the stuff she buys from us! That's gonna cost me!

Sandy, the proverbial Scotsman.


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