BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?

Subject: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 07:22 AM

I get the impression that all Indian restaurants now arrogantly offer only halal meat - even those which are Hindu owned. Are there any exceptions?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 07:31 AM

There'd no be no reason for them to do otherwise, given that their customers are likely to be Muslim. (There aren't a lot of non-Muslim-run Indian restaurants around here, as far as I can tell).

In the near future the main thing you're going to want in a restaurant is that its meat isn't American. Halal will ensure that.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 07:35 AM

But a great many of their customers are likely to be British non-muslim surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 07:36 AM

In the UK, most of the major supermarkets sell ONLY halal meat (they don't advertise the fact though) in order to cover all religious requirements. So I imagine that restaurants of any kind are more or less obliged to purchase meat from animals slaughtered in this way.

I think it's deplorable. I don't agree with halal methods of slaughter.
The Government rules about slaughter procedures used to concentrate on humane stunning pre-killing, and on hygienic standards. Now, they seem to be bowing to minority religions and putting their rules above humane ones.

My husband's a Muslim, so he's obliged to eat only halal stuff.
I eat very little meat nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 07:51 AM

I have seen halal slaughter done and I've worked in one of the world's largest Western-style abattoirs.

The differences are more to do with scale than ritual, but the halal I've seen was vastly more humane.

Hygiene standarda are same for halal or other methods - they only affect what happens to the carcass, and the halal rules have nothing to say about that. The halal requirement that the animal shouldn't know what's coming is NOT met by the standard Western industrial slaughterhouse, where the animal is dragged screaming into an inferno of blood and guts. "Humane stunning" is irrelevant once the animal is in a place like the one I worked in. It made the Manson massacre look like a hospice.

Anyway, avoiding meat raised using brutal American industrial-farming practices is far more important as an animal welfare issue. That is what the EU currently protects us from. It's not just about how the animal dies, it's about protecting it from an entire life of misery and pain before that.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 08:14 AM

Anyway, avoiding meat raised using brutal American industrial-farming practices is far more important as an animal welfare issue. That is what the EU currently protects us from. It's not just about how the animal dies, it's about protecting it from an entire life of misery and pain before that.

pate de foie gras anyone?

The French, at least, aren't exactly the epitome of animal welfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 08:18 AM

Yes Jack,I didn't mean the Government has changed hygiene rules, just relaxed slaughter rules.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about animal welfare while being reared. In our area, although we're mainly arable, we have quite a bit of farming for meat too. Our pigs seem to be housed in outdoor fields with little huts for them to sleep in at night. They can gallop around the field all day. Many chickens here are raised 'free-range' although avian flu rearing its ugly head again has meant keeping the birds in barns for now. Lambs are out in the fields until slaughter. There isn't much beef farming here though.

My husband says halal is humane and quick, with dignity and respect for the animal (prayer and so on). However, UK Vets have disagreed and say it isn't humane at all.
There are very few Muslims here in Norfolk. Most Indian restaurants and takeaways are used by non-Muslims. I'm not sure what religion the proprietors/cooks are.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 08:30 AM

But a great many of their customers are likely to be British non-muslim surely?

Quite possibly but being British non-muslim does not exclude you from eating Halal meat as far as I am aware. Why is serving Halal meat a problem unless the meat is butchered in a non-humane way. Which Jack has said is not true.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 09:00 AM

The president of the British Veterinary Association said: 'Our view is that all animals should be stunned before slaughter, based on peer reviewed evidence that indicates an unacceptable time lapse between slaughter and the onset of permanent insensibility when animals are not stunned.

Animals must also be stunned before slaughter under EU regulations.

However Britain allows an exemption for those who oppose because of religious beliefs and the number of animals killed without stunning appears to be on the rise.

The Halal Food Authority, which polices slaughter methods, says stunning can only be used if the animal survives and is then killed under halal ritual. But some Islamic groups do not allow any form of stunning before slaughter.

Any meat offered for human consumption where the annimal has not been stunned prior to slaughter should be clearly labelled as such in my view.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 09:08 AM

I can't see why Britain allows an exemption for religious beliefs. Once one starts bending the rules, where does it stop?

There's a short article in VetTimes (March this year) by Nick Marsh. He's concerned because, as he states, goats and cows remain conscious for quite a time after their throats are cut, due to the physiology of their necks. He feels that the practice should be outlawed in UK.

The thing is, were it to be banned, various religious groups would be slaughtering in secret, which (like backstreet abortions) is even worse.
I would certainly rather choose stunned-before-slaughter meat.

I do admire my niece - she's a Vegan!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 09:18 AM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4391914/Halal-slaughterhouse-investigated-animal-cruelty.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shopping-and-consumer-news/11384505/Secret-halal-slaughterhouse-film-reveals-horrific-animal-abu

And to add some balance:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31411219

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 09:37 AM

Again I ask the question. If the animals are butchered humanely does it matter whether they are Halal, Kosher or neither? There seems to be some conflict about whether pre-stunning is required or permissible. From what I see in the linked articles and many others there can be as much cruelty resulting from stunning as from not stunning. Maybe rather than a statement of whether the meat is Halal or not it should be a required certification that the animals did not suffer unnecessarily during the process?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 09:48 AM

Maybe rather than a statement of whether the meat is Halal or not it should be a required certification that the animals did not suffer unnecessarily during the process?
But who is to decide what is meant by "unnecessarily"? Clearly Muslims will believe that any suffering which results purely from the halal method of killing is necessary (in order to meet with religious requirements).

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 10:08 AM

I object to having halal inflicted on us by some religion most of us have or want nothing to do with.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 10:17 AM

Halal and Kosher have the same requirements, say my Muslim and Jewish friends, and are the same for religious requirements.

If you don't want to do something, don't do it. I'm sure if you look you can find non-kosher, non-halal meats.   And why would anyone want to ignore a religion practiced by a billion people or so? It would be like ignoring China.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM

As the BBC report said:
The one area where some MPs and lobby groups tend to agree that more should be done is in labelling meat to make clearer to all UK consumers what methods were used in its slaughter, and in ensuring that all abattoirs have CCTV to ensure that the law is complied with.

Clearer labelling would also help Britain's Sikhs, who cannot eat halal or kosher meat.

21June 2017" The RSPCA, British Veterinary Association, the Farm Animal Welfare Council and animal rights groups say slaughter without pre-stunning can cause unnecessary suffering." That is good enough for me. If the professional organisation for vets does not support slaughter without stunning then who has equivalent professional standing to argue to the contrary?

Finally, why should I have to search for non halal meat when it is produced purely to pander for the religion of a minority?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 11:30 AM

"Finally, why should I have to search for non halal meat when it is produced purely to pander for the religion of a minority?"

Bloody right, make me very very mad.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 11:46 AM

It was not clear if Halal butchering is any more cruel than any other sort as reports seem to conflict but the one quoted is pretty recent and certainly carries a lot of weight. At the end of the day though rearing animals for food is a pretty cruel practice in itself so it is a question is of degrees.

I was not aware that Sikhs could not eat Halal and Kosher foods so, in that case, yes, it should be clearly labelled as Halal or Kosher.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 11:59 AM

Excellent post Iains. Cruelty in any form just shouldn't be allowed though. Labelled or not, how can one justify it?
It seems we are bending over backwards not to antagonise minority religions in UK, and in doing so are eroding our own cultural standards.
And halal meat is just one of the bones of contention. (sorry about the pun)

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Stu
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:14 PM

I get the impression that all English restaurants now arrogantly offer only bolt-killed meat - even those which are Scottish owned. Are there any exceptions?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:27 PM

I get the impression that all English restaurants now arrogantly offer only bolt-killed meat - even those which are Scottish owned. Are there any exceptions?
Never heard of a bolt killed chicken or any fish come to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:36 PM

Come on Chaps, let's be British about this..
All condemned animals about to be slaughtered should be offered a blindfold and a last cigarette...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:37 PM

It would make buying supermarket meat rather horrifying if the packaging had something along the lines of:

"This meat is from animals which had their throats slit with a sharp knife while still conscious, and bled slowly to death. However, the correct prayer was said while this was carried out."

Or the alternative, "This meat is from animals dragged into an abattoir awash with blood, had a bolt fired at their heads and were killed 'humanely'."

I can see why my niece won't touch any meat actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:38 PM

"Any meat offered for human consumption where the annimal has not been stunned prior to slaughter should be clearly labelled as such in my view."

Should it really now. And should your next pack of shrink-wrapped shoulder of lamb also tell you that this animal was transported hundreds of miles in a double-decker lorry to the slaughterhouse, packed in with hundreds of other terrified lambs like sardines, or that the cow that this beef came from was herded into a noisy abattoir running with blood and full of the tormented cries of other animals also in line to be slaughtered, or that this pack of chicken fillets came from a bird that was kept in a dark barn with tens of thousands of other birds for the whole of its life, forced to trample on the corpses of dead birds that had to be cleaned out every day, or that this this pork chop came from a pig that was never allowed outdoors but kept in draughty, overcrowded concrete Belsen-houses living in its own shit and the shit of hundreds of other pigs?   

Let me be the first to suggest a whiff of hypocrisy running through this thread, and, not least, a whiff of anti-Muslim sentiment...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:44 PM

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11469546


https://www.hsa.org.uk/concussion-stunning/concussion-stunning

Apparently I was wrong about chickens.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:45 PM

Same idea as me in a way Steve. Reality labelling.

I'm not anti-Muslim, but some Muslim practices repel me.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:54 PM

I'd suggest Quorn, but how can we really know how well those micro fungal organisms are reared and treated,
and how humanely they are killed for processing...???

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 01:34 PM

I doubt the stunning has changed much since I saw it being done. The sheep were kept in a small holding pen outside the plant, then forced or dragged up a ramp into the killing room, which for most of the day had its walls plastered ceiling-high with blood, with dozens of sheep within sight being strung up by their hind legs onto overhead conveyor chains. You can imagine the noise and smell of hundreds of sheep being transported across an area the size of a tennis court to be skinned and disembowelled. Once they got to the top of the ramp they were trapped in a narrow cage-like frame and given a short blast of current to the head. ECT alone doesn't induce unconsciousness in people so I don't see how it could with sheep. Most likely they were simply rendered unable to move by unimaginable fear. Then the slaughtermen would cut their throats - these guys were good at it, one slash went through all the blood vessels in the neck. Halal butchers will do exactly the same; it's the most humane part of the whole process. Once blood circulation to the brain stops, it takes about 18 seconds for a human to lose consciousness, so it must be about the same for sheep.

As far as I can tell, stunning is simply to speed the process for the human operators. It only increases the animal's suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:02 PM

A long time ago I read somewhere that suffering animals who die badly
result in poorer quality meat,
due to some last minute stress induced hormonal changes in body chemistry...?????

ie.. they don't taste as good as they should...

As consumers, that alone should be paramount reason for banning 'cruel' slaughter house methods...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:15 PM

There on the stair.. right there....!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:24 PM

Now listen here chaps, we British are a decent tolerant race.
We don't mind you lot living here and not being christians,
as long as you stop doing all these strange primitive fuzzy wuzzy mumbo jumbo native rituals and suchlike...

Inanes - yeah.. what anti muslim sentiment...???? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:44 PM

Shaw the simple reason that I would like to have the meat labelled as halal is that 20% of halal meat is slaughtered without prior stunning.
Perhaps if you read the links you also could be aware of this salient point.
I assume you are either a vegan or complete hypocrite.
Your point is?

The reasons for long distance trucking is the reduced number of slaughter houses-partly due to economies of scale, partly due to EU regulations

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120414053640/http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/board/fsa080504a2.pdf

https://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare/practice/slaughter_en

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:50 PM

All meat eaters who refuse to accept cannibalism as an option are hypocrites...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:55 PM

Punkfolkrocker.
you may have a point.


http://sciencenordic.com/meat-stressed-animals-unhealthy


http://www.thebeefsite.com/articles/1454/meat-quality-and-animal-welfare/

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 02:59 PM

I'm not anti-Muslim. I don't care if people are devil worshippers or inmates of a monastery. It's cruelty to animals I object to. And certain other practices where unnecessary suffering is endured by women and children, for example, in the name of whatever religious or cultural beliefs they're bound by.
I also think a country's laws should be upheld, no matter who decides they don't apply to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 03:04 PM

The jury still seems to be out on whether stunning is better or not. There is bad stunning as well as bad killing without the prior stun. It seems that, if done properly, neither cause the animal undue suffereng. I am not voluteering to try it out though...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 03:21 PM

I am an omnivore, I believe I should take responsibility to kill and prepare my own meat as 'kindly' as possible...

But that's not the world we live in any more...

We have to trust corporate meat processors;
and as a mass of consumers lobby that they be forced by law to follow best practices...

I would be happy to see humanity mature out of a dependency on any religions,
but accept the unlikelihood of that ever happening in my lifetime.

Respect and tolerance for religious practices in animal slaughter,
should not be at the cost of animal suffering and poor quality meat products.

How this should be enforeced is the pronlematic nature of this discussion.....????

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 03:23 PM

I was listening to someone talk about local slaughter of animals here in Alaska. They relayed a talk they had with a farmer who raised goats and sold them to some local Muslims for Halal slaughter. The farmer, concerned for the welfare of her animals, witnessed the slaughter and was positively impressed with its humanity and efficiency. Since I'm relaying this third-hand I have no details.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 05:11 PM

Same here Greg. I wasn't singling out Islam as the sole religion with dubious practices. But in a discussion about halal meat, one is bound to concentrate on Muslim/Jewish food laws.

Many years ago I was chosen to take charge of a group of Egyptian teachers visiting the UK for a few weeks. They were worried about halal food, and in those days, Norfolk didn't have any specialist shops for this. But amazingly, I learned they'd found a Norfolk farmer willing to let them have a sheep to slaughter (illegally) under halal rules on his farm. (like robomatic's farmer in Alaska) I wasn't happy, but my Headmaster advised me not to do anything. They soon returned to their country. But it certainly made me think...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 08:46 PM

If you're really worried about halal, don't eat meat.   But don't come here pontificating about it unless you're prepared to pontificate about the widespread mistreatment of animals in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: BobL
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 03:22 AM

I can't see why Britain allows an exemption for religious beliefs
Better than the reverse. We've come a long way since the restrictions of the Puritan era.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bugsy
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 03:54 AM

I think that a lot of people didn't give a toss how their meat was slaughtered until they found out that Muslims use the "Halal" method. Then it gave them a new soapbox to jump on.

How come no one shouted about "Kosher"?

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:06 AM

The thing is, for me having 'halal meat' clearly labelled in supermarkets etc isn't going to satisfy me. Even if I personally avoid buying it, somewhere, some pitiable beast has gasped out its last for ages with its throat slit, and apparently that's completely within the Law, which nevertheless has forbidden the practice in the past, until a 'Religion' banner was waved .

As in the case of those Egyptian teachers, we seem to be more inclined to turn a blind eye for fear of creating a situation of 'discrimination' or 'offence' to minority sections of our society.

I feel just the same about other practices (as I said in a previous post) but cruelty to animals is surely not something we in UK condone?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:22 AM

Right. Read this wiki extract then tell me what this thread is all about unless there's an anti-Muslim subtext.

The animal may be stunned prior to having its throat cut. The UK Food Standards Agency figures from 2011 suggest that 84% of cattle, 81% of sheep and 88% of chickens slaughtered for halal meat were stunned before they died. Supermarkets selling halal products also report that all animals are stunned before they are slaughtered. Tesco, for example, says "the only difference between the halal meat it sells and other meat is that it was blessed as it was killed."[17] The British Veterinary Association, along with citizens who have assembled a petition with 100,000[18] signatures, have raised concerns regarding a proposed halal abattoir in Wales, in which animals are not to be stunned prior to killing.[19] Concerns about animal suffering from slaughter without prior stunning has resulted in the ban of slaughter of unstunned animals in Denmark, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland.[20][21] Generally, killing animals in Islam is only permissible for two main reasons, to be eaten[22] and to eliminate a danger, e.g. a rabid dog.[23]

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:25 AM

I am not sure it is just Halal or Kosher that may be cruelty to animals though, Eliza. As has been said here and elsewhere, done correctly the knife across the throat is less painful than some of the stunning methods. Prior to stunning a skilled butcher or slaughterman would perform the necessary with a minimum of distress to the animal to ensure good meat ensued. The introduction of unskilled labour has resulted in the need for stunning and, even then, someone not very good at it will cause untold distress.

The only way to ensure what you want is to revert to farming methods that allow the animals to lead a stress free life prior to butchering and a skilled slaughterman at the end of their life. The method of slaughter, provided that it does not cause undue distress, is an aside. Trouble is that is not going to happen now and to single out one potentially barbarous method of keeping and slaughtering livestock over another does not make sense.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:37 AM

You're right Dave. It's the 'industrialisation' of farming and slaughter methods that has resulted in unskilled/bodged practices.

I once spoke to a couple of Congolese chaps in Wroxham who worked in a turkey slaughterhouse. They said it was horrible, but they needed the work. From the things they told me, many types of slaughtering methods are pretty barbaric.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: JHW
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:48 AM

Standard meat? I don't eat meat but freind John and I ate in Indian Restaurant in the old town in Edinburgh. Bringing out John's meal waiter declared 'Beef Madras'. "But I ordered Lamb".
'OK, Lamb Madras' with beaming smile

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 04:48 AM

As I said previously 20% of halal meat in the UK is from animals that have not been stunned prior to slaughter. It is this minority that the BVA has concerns with, arising from an exemption to EU legislation granted by the UK government. In my view this exemption should not have been granted.

"BVA launched the Parliamentary e-petition because scientific evidence shows that slaughter without pre-stunning allows animals to feel pain and compromises animal welfare. This scientific evidence includes the EU-funded Dialrel project that ran for four years between 2006 and 2010 and that concluded "It can be stated with high probability that animals feel pain during and after the throat cut without prior stunning." It is a position supported by the Humane Slaughter Association, the Farm Animal Welfare Council, and the Federation of Veterinarians of Europe.

BVA notes that more than 80% of Halal meat is stunned before slaughter. BVA's concern does not relate to religious belief but to the animal welfare compromise of non-stun slaughter."

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 08:48 AM

JHW, that's really funny! Indeterminate meat, whatever you want it to be. Heh heh.

There are some excellent Indian restaurants in Edinburgh. In fact, it's a city with an enormous number of superb eateries. My sister is forever going down there from Perthshire to eat out with her two daughters. But they always make sure there's a good selection of vegetarian dishes for the Vegan one. (She's also a Feminist, a Communist and a Buddhist!)

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 10:14 AM

"As has been said here and elsewhere, done correctly the knife across the throat is less painful than some of the stunning methods."
Dave the gnome

"It can be stated with high probability that animals feel pain during and after the throat cut without prior stunning" Federation of Veterinarians of Europe.


So gnome you feel you know better than the FVE. Can you state your qualifications for such a statement or are you simply blowing smoke as usual? I think a vet is better qualified to state an opinion on this subject, especially when backed by scientific studies.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 10:20 AM

In the UK, most of the major supermarkets sell ONLY halal meat ...

I must see if I can pick up some halal pork chops next time I am in Tesco.

:-)
DC

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 10:33 AM

Wondering how people on small farms who slaughter and butcher their own animals do it. From my very small experience, they cut the throats of pigs, and probably send the cows elsewhere. Do they have a small version of a captive bolt stunner for chickens, or do they just behead them? I don't know. Maybe there are little stun guns out there for chickens. And what about fish? That particular scene is the most horrific. They yank them out of the water by a hook through their mouths, and often filet them before they're actually dead.

I think arguing about polite ways of ending life is silly. Dead is dead is dead, and people who're overly concerned about it should probably just be vegetarian. Then they would have something new to argue about, although it would be more difficult to work the "this religion is better than that religion" theme into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 10:39 AM

You can buy Bombay Duck again now. Luverly!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 10:40 AM

Haha Doug! I sometimes fry bacon, and my poor husband drools and always says how delicious it smells.
Luckily, we're each very tolerant of the other's ways.

I suppose historically, pork was rather a dodgy choice, since pigs roam freely and eat any old muck in developing countries and can carry tapeworms (but beef does too). Also, eating 'carrion' would be a mad thing to do. And avoiding blood or blood products is also sensible in the Tropics. (I adore black pudding myself)

In Tunisia and Morocco, I often saw the head and feet/hooves displayed outside a butcher's shop, showing what animal had just been slaughtered and prepared. A bit grisly, but nice to be sure what one is going to eat!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 10:45 AM

So gnome you feel you know better than the FVE. Can you state your qualifications for such a statement or are you simply blowing smoke as usual?

No, I don't know any better than anyone. I can only go off what has been reported and it is reported that some stunning causes as much if not more pain that slaughter without stunning. See this article in the New Humanist for a good explanation of what I say.

If you just want an argument, as usual, feel free to carry on but you are barking up the wrong tree here.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 11:54 AM

Iains - you should count yourself lucky that an injudicious mod intervention
has removed evidence of your earlier posted attempt at starting a row in this thread...

I'd have preferred it was still here for all to see what you do..

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 12:01 PM

Cooking kills worms. The only thing it won't kill (AFAIK) is prion disease. Rabies, apparently, is also possibly killed by cooking (or maybe it's something else involved in consumption).

When I was a vet tech in the Air Force, someone told me they'd been working in an AF vet clinic in the Philippines. Someone brought in a dead dog they were sure had had rabies. The vet and the techs went in another room, and when they went back to the dog, it was gone. Well... it WAS meat. Given that there was a lot of rabies in dogs, and people ate dogs, and nobody had ever developed rabies from eating a dog, I came to the conclusion that cooking kills the rabies rhabdovirus. I didn't really look into it, though, as I wasn't planning on eating any rabid rover roasts anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 12:23 PM

"I think arguing about polite ways of ending life is silly. Dead is dead is dead, and people who're overly concerned about it should probably just be vegetarian. Then they would have something new to argue about..."

Allelujah. So, so far we've worked out that some halal meat was stunned and some wasn't. And some non-halal meat was stunned and some wasn't. So I ask again: what IS the point of this thread?

I nearly said where's the beef...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 12:40 PM

Mad cow disease put beef off our plates for years...

After the official all clear, we all have to trust beef is now safe...???

Beef Burger Russian Roulette.... 🍔 ⚠

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:00 PM

I was talking with a kosher oriented friend the other day. His car had taken damage from a meeting with a deer. Since I know he always carries a sharp knife, I asked him why he did not a] put the deer our of its misery and b] take the venison home for later consumption. He advised me that the literal definition of "tref" is not only unclean but torn or damaged. As such, the meat was unfit for consumption.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:09 PM

dthe g. Your article by Harold Hillman 2010)seems to have very little in the way of sources or peer review. This makes the conclusions of one individual very suspect.

The New Scientist:"Neurophysiologist Harold Hillman has a serious career problem. He's out of step with his peers, and now he's out of a job as well."(1988)

The fact that most western legislation mandates pre-stunning prior to slaughter does rather lead to the assumption that this pre-stunning serves a useful purpose. i.e. it reduces suffering. I think it is fair to say that this legislation in each country was drafted with veterinary input and so far the case for stunning animals being more humane is overwhelming. Even most halal meat is pre-stunned prior to slaughter(around 80%, depending on sources) The only exemptions granted are on religious grounds
    A review of news items on abbatoirs would suggest that more needs to be done to police behaviour of slaughtermen to prevent cruelty to annimals while being processed. CCTV was supposed to be placed in all slaughterhouses. I donot believe this has yet happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:22 PM

EBarnacle, my husband still thinks it's a terrible waste not to stop the car and shove roadkill into the boot. He sees a dead muntjac/badger/fox/squirrel/pigeon on the grass verge and wonders why no-one takes it home to 'put in the pot'. Where he comes from there'd be a fight over who should get it, halal or not (definitely NOT) W Africans get so little meat, anything is welcome.

Steve, stop harping on. If you see no point to this thread then why are you lurking here grinding your teeth and muttering to yourself? And do you remember Mr & Mrs Smack? They've just bought tickets to Bottyland. Their bus is on its way...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:26 PM

This makes the conclusions of one individual very suspect.

Which is why I have not come to any conclusion. The phrase I think I used was 'The jury still seems to be out on whether stunning is better or not.' I have seen the article from the FVE and the one I linked. There are many more from both sides and I am sure you are as unqualified as I am to pronounce which are more correct. The point is that both stunning and Halal/Kosher slaughter can cause pain and distress to the victims. There is no point in playing the holier than thou card when you eat meat slaughtered by any method.

Your tone indicates, as PFR says, that you are only here for the argument and are not really interested in what anyone else has to say. I am more than happy to accept that the FVE know what they are talking about but I also accept that others, including slaughtermen who have been involved in the trade for many years, may have an opposing views that could also be correct. Will you accept that too?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:30 PM

I've never personally witnessed the slaughter of an animal (except pheasants, partridges, pigeons, rabbits and hares, by shooting), but I lived, for many years, about 100 yards from a traditional abattoir, and I've seen video of a sheep subjected to Halal slaughter.

In the case of the abattoir, the cries of the animals were heard all day long, and they were clearly cries of terror, not the usual sounds you hear from cows, sheep,and pigs. The terrified cries stopped abruptly - presumably when the animal was stunned.

The video of the Halal slaughter was very different, the animal did not appear unduly stressed, the slaughter men were very gentle and spoke softly to the animal before and after its throat was cut. It appeared not to know what had happened to it, it didn't cry out or struggle, and it was held and gently lowered to the ground as it lost consciousness. 'Respectful' and 'kind' are the two words that sprang to mind as I watched the video. Not claiming that all Halal slaughter is performed in such a gentle, humane way - I don't have that much experience.

No judgment intended here, just my experience (such as it is).

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:32 PM

Meant to say also that, in the case of the Halal slaughter, the knife was at all times hidden from the animal's sight, so it didn't take fright.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:33 PM

But you're not really giving sources yourself. Your argument appears to be based on appeal to authority, a well-known logical fallacy. Vets favour stunning therefore it must be more humane. Legislation in so many countries must mean that stunning is more humane. Sorry, but neither is evidence, nor do they represent sources. The arguments I've read that suggest that stunning may lead to just as much distress as not stunning, along with the descriptions of physiological reactions apropos of sensory and motor nervous systems, seem quite persuasive and are not so easily dismissed. So let's have your peer-reviewed studies. This is what you said (and I've stripped out the routine insult): "I think a vet is better qualified to state an opinion on this subject, especially when backed by scientific studies." Good. So let's be having those studies then, chapter and verse.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:37 PM

That was directed at Iains. This is directed at Senoufou: you contribute what you want to and I'll contribute what I want to. In fact, I've contributed a fair bit to this thread after doing my homework. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:40 PM

d the G.
I think the fact that only a small minority of meat is slaughtered without pre stunning makes its own case. In reality no method can be totally stress free and painless. It is a question of degree. Needless cruelty in slaughterhouses is probably far more of a problem.


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/aug/28/fsa-4000-breaches-animal-welfare-laws-uk-abattoirs-two-years

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:43 PM

Shaw you can use google as well as I can. Do your own homework!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:44 PM

What case?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:49 PM

You are making claims that, so far, you haven't substantiated. So what scientific studies are referring to?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:50 PM

you

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 01:55 PM

I think the fact that only a small minority of meat is slaughtered without pre stunning makes its own case.

No it doesn't. The fact that things are done that way does not make any case at all. In scientific studies the norm should always be questioned. Without this simple act we would never make any progress. All I am saying is that all types of slaughter can and do cause animals distress. I am just not convinced that shooting a bolt into and animals brain or electrocuting it prior to slitting its throat is any better than just slitting its throat. As I said, as far as I am concerned, the jury is still out.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 02:00 PM

As I said earlier:
1June 2017" The RSPCA, British Veterinary Association, the Farm Animal Welfare Council and animal rights groups say slaughter without pre-stunning can cause unnecessary suffering." That is good enough for me. If the professional organisation for vets does not support slaughter without stunning then who has equivalent professional standing to argue to the contrary?

I think it is quite safe to assume the necessary studies have been carried out to support this position.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 02:06 PM

Just for a laugh I was going to link to "Meat is Murder" by the Smiths..

But after struggling though the lengthy boring intro and the first few bars of Morrisey's whiny singing,
decided it would be far too cruel to humans... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 02:15 PM

I think it is quite safe to assume the necessary studies have been carried out to support this position.

What position? "slaughter without pre-stunning can cause unnecessary suffering"? That is probably right. Does it say anywhere that slaughter with pre-stunning does not cause unnecessary suffering? My position remains that all slaughter can cause unnecessary suffering. Do the "necessary studies that support this position" say anywhere that pre-stunning is a foolproof way to eliminate all suffering? I think not.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 02:21 PM

I would have enjoyed the Smiths, PFR, but maybe this Monty Python sketch is more suitable.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 02:22 PM

D the g do you actually read what is posted?

"slaughter without pre-stunning can cause unnecessary suffering."

Nowhere does anyone state the procedure is painless.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 02:31 PM

I try my best not to be a hypocrite, or be completely indifferent to animal suffering... but I am a meat eater.

This is no excuse or justification, but every day all around the world sentient creatures are captured and devoured, ripped apart whilst still conscious, by predators higher up the food chain.
With absolutely no consideration for the terror or pain of their food animals..

Your cute cuddly fluffy pet cats routinely playfully torture and kill smaller animals they have no need of for food and survival.

We are just another predator, but hopefully with more compassion for the animals we eat.

How much can we trust the global corporate food industry to be minimising animal suffering on our behalf...????

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 02:32 PM

I read was was posted and repeated it thank you. Did you read my follow up question to it? If you accept that the procedure is not painless, as you seem to indicate, you are simply replacing one sort of pain for another. In either case it can cause the animal suffering and in either case we chose to ignore that fact when we cook our Sunday roast. Neither standard meat nor Halal/Kosher meat is free from pain.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 02:35 PM

"As I said earlier:
1June 2017" The RSPCA, British Veterinary Association, the Farm Animal Welfare Council and animal rights groups say slaughter without pre-stunning can cause unnecessary suffering." That is good enough for me. If the professional organisation for vets does not support slaughter without stunning then who has equivalent professional standing to argue to the contrary?

I think it is quite safe to assume the necessary studies have been carried out to support this position."

Spot the logical fallacy, not to speak of the weasel words. 😂😂😂

If you want to make serious points you should be prepared to give us those "necessary studies" chapter and verse. The fact that you clearly can't can't makes you....Keith....

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 02:38 PM

well we finally agree on something.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 06:12 PM

Shaw you are rather fond of chapter and verse are you not. So here are a few chapters and verses for you to gnaw on. Don't leave out the bibliographys.
"A number of notable bodies including the Farm Animal Welfare Committee and the EU Food Safety Authority all agree that there is a high probability that the cutting of sensitive tissues at the neck will trigger a significant pain response in a conscious animal."

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17972-animals-feel-the-pain-of-religious-slaughter/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/more-animals-die-in-pain-because-scholars-are-ignorant-of-stunning-fsz83krtn
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00480169.2014.964345
http://www.fve.org/news/position_papers/animal_welfare/fve_02_104_slaughter_prior_stunning.pdf
https://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/3818629/religious-slaughter-briefing.pdf (plus extensive bibliography)
http://animalstudiesrepository.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&context=acwp_faafp
https://www.bva.co.uk/uploadedFiles/Content/News,_campaigns_and_policies/Campaigns/welfare-at-slaughter-june-2015-final3.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 06:21 PM

A number of notable bodies including the Farm Animal Welfare Committee and the EU Food Safety Authority all agree that there is a high probability that the cutting of sensitive tissues at the neck will trigger a significant pain response in a conscious animal

Of course it will. No one is disputing that. What you keep ignoring is the fact that a bolt in the head or a severe electric shock will also trigger a significant pain response. If you doubt that, I suggest you try it out yourself.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 06:26 PM

My niece says she won't eat anything with a face

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 17 - 06:38 PM

"A number of notable bodies..." Yeah, well, you never learn, do you. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 03:52 AM

well shaw and gnome lets have some of your counter arguments with the scientific evidence to support it. Chapter and verse if you don't mind. Interesting how you twist the argument.
   Now I wonder how far I would have to dig in the 30000 +posts you have jointly generated to find identical behaviour.
And I believe I have clearly stated that the legislation is to prevent unnecessary suffering. Even a trip   to a dentist involves suffering.
D the g do you actually read what is posted?

"slaughter without pre-stunning can cause unnecessary suffering."

Nowhere does anyone state the procedure is painless.
Now what part of the above can you not understand?
Shaw for what you regard as a pointless thread one can legitimately ask. Why are you here? To Provoke? How unusual.
I am surprised you have managed to plough through all the references
appended to the articles I supplied but judging by the tone of your response you probably have not bothered after demanding they be supplied. Rather demonstrates the nature of the man eh shaw?
m

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 05:10 AM

Yes, I have read it and repeated it. I will do so again as you obviously missed it.

slaughter without pre-stunning can cause unnecessary suffering

You have still not responded to my follow up question.

Can stunning an animal cause unnesessary suffering? I am pretty sure that having a steel spike driven into the brain or being electrocuted is no picnic. Is there any of that that you do not understand?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 05:32 AM

I think the fact that only a small minority of meat is slaughtered without pre stunning makes its own case.

It shows it's much easier to cut an animal's throat while it's paralyzed with fear after being put through an extreme epileptic seizure. It's got nothing to do with reducing the animal's suffering.

Put yourself in the animal's position and imagine that as in the state of Utah, someone is giving you a choice of how to be executed. You can either have all the blood vessels to your brain severed instantly (which will cause unconsciousness within seconds) or you can be given a blast of ECT (without premedication) first. Which would you go for?

More significantly, there is absolutely no question that American methods of intensive stock rearing cause lifelong suffering to all the animals subjected to it (read Jeffrey Masson's books for some horrible examples). Why let Christian America off when it's causing immeasurably more misery to vastly more animals, and for their entire lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 05:53 AM

That is what I have been trying to get across, Jack. No method of slaughtering is entirely free from suffering. By its very nature it can't be. No one can be holier than thou when it comes to eating meat, myself included.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 11:23 AM

That's the whole point. A massive song and dance is being made in this thread over whether the last few seconds of animals' lives matter more than the previous rest of their lives, which in all probability were spent in miserable, unnatural conditions, which we're not even talking about much. But, of course, if it's what Muslims do...

And sorry, Iains, but as you're the claimant it's up to you to produce the evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 01:04 PM

So.. does any predator in nature cause less suffering to it's prey than the most humane and skilled quick kill butcher [irrespective of religion]...???

Most lives end in suffering and pain one way or another..
Would I really care, would it make any difference, if I was eaten afterwards...???

Of course being eaten alive, nature toot hand claw, is an entirely different proposition on the painometer .....

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 01:07 PM

toot hand claw...!!!???

that's sending my imagination off on one...
[I used to work in an artificial limb appliance clinic...]

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 01:39 PM

Well there is this... Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers Thanksgiving dinner, it's probably elsewhere on the web but this one is on Facebook..

https://www.facebook.com/TheFabulousFurryFreakBrothers/photos/a.233240485386.294467.62255865386/10154882374565387/

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 04:11 PM

shaw"A massive song and dance is being made in this thread over whether the last few seconds of animals' lives matter more than the previous rest of their lives, which in all probability were spent in miserable, unnatural conditions, which we're not even talking about much. But, of course, if it's what Muslims do..."

No shaw the thread was about halal meat. I believe you went out and bought yourself a soapbox to stand up on and pontificate about totally separate issue of annimal welfare, transportation, and conditions in abbatoirs. All this on a thread that by your own admission is pointless. These issues you raise are valid, besides being cruel they impact the bottom line. Raise annimals in poor conditions and you are shovelling food with restricted weightgain. Cruelty during transportation and slaughter can create carcass bruising and impacts on the value of the annimal. Better policing of animal welfare is required with more cctv. I would also like to see far more inspection of the comprehensive controls on medication and elapsed time prior to slaughter. I suspect this can be open to abuse.
However the main stumbling block for both you and the gnome is the efficacy of prestunning. You are both obdurate and obtuse. SO I will illustrate the argument with a simple analogy that both of you should be capable of understanding.
If you go to the dentist for a root canal(SLAUGHTER) would you like it performed without anaesthetic(PRESTUNNING)
There. Made it easy for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 04:58 PM

Actually, though it's totally irrelevant, I have ALL my dentistry done sans anaesthetic, at my insistence. 😂

You are an obsessive Iains, and your arguments are shaky and unsupported. And "animals" has only one n. Are you sure this isn't about your dislike of Islam?   Not sayin', just wonderin'...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 05:13 PM

Iains's arguments are far from 'shaky and unsupported'. He has provided numerous links to reputable and relevant bodies who should know what they're talking about.
Typos happen. Iains writes intelligently and in an educated way. I'm sure he knows how to spell animals, and I'm sure you know he does. It's a bit pathetic to use a typo with which to insult a poster.

And why are you so determined to accuse some of us of anti-Muslim attitudes? I can hardly be included in that category. I've been married to a black Muslim for decades, and all my (many!) in-laws are devout Muslims too. Some of their practices and doctrines do not meet with my approval, but I love them all dearly nonetheless.

When discussing halal meat, and the opportunity to avoid it in restaurants, one is naturally going to consider its consumption by Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 05:49 PM

I'm not determined to accuse anyone of anything. I'm simply asking certain people here, yourself not included, to examine their consciences. And if you think that Iain's arguments on this forum are intelligent and well-educated, well either you don't read his posts or you're his doting auntie.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 06:04 PM

I do indeed read his posts Steve. For instance, on the Charlie Gard thread, Iains provided a most interesting reference to another case of unnecessary resuscitation involving a policeman; a case which gave another perspective on the discussion.

I am certainly not his doting auntie.

I'm not your doting auntie either. If I were, I might be able to react with more patience to your posts, which seem lately to be getting increasingly confrontational, personally insulting and stroppy.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 06:37 PM

So, Eliza, you accuse Steve of being "increasingly confrontational, personally insulting and stroppy" yet have said nothing of the following unprovoked attacks?

Shaw the simple reason that I would like to have the meat labelled as halal is that 20% of halal meat is slaughtered without prior stunning.
Perhaps if you read the links you also could be aware of this salient point.
I assume you are either a vegan or complete hypocrite.
...

So gnome you feel you know better than the FVE. Can you state your qualifications for such a statement or are you simply blowing smoke as usual?
...

Shaw you can use google as well as I can. Do your own homework!
...

D the g do you actually read what is posted?
...

well shaw and gnome lets have some of your counter arguments with the scientific evidence to support it. Chapter and verse if you don't mind. Interesting how you twist the argument.


Are you sure you want to tie your colours to this particular mast?

All I have ever said on this thread is that I am unsure whether stunning is any less painful than cutting the throat in a proper and controlled way. That view is backed up by articles I have posted and by the experience of others. I have never said that I am sure either way but have pointed out that anyone who eats meat has no right to condemn the slaughter methods of others. Slaughter is slaughter. It all causes pain. If that upsets your sensibilities then give up meat. But don't shoot the messenger.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 07:01 PM

Thank you, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 07:09 PM

No shaw the thread was about halal meat. I believe you went out and bought yourself a soapbox to stand up on and pontificate about totally separate issue of annimal welfare, transportation, and conditions in abbatoirs.

I think I raised the larger and more important animal welfare issues before Steve did. So try pontificating at me.

Threads are about whatever their posters want them to be about. The pseudonymous thing that started this thread has a track record going back years of posting disgusting white supremacist little-Englander racism on this forum. So of course it wasn't concerned about animals when starting the thread: the whole point of it, for that vermin, was to abuse Muslims and motivate other people to discriminate against them and subject them to violent attacks. It's a dog-whistle issue which has been used by the fascist right in the UK to bully Jews and Muslims since before the rise of Hitler.

My intention in taking the thread in the direction I did was to say, fuck that, go to Stormfront if you want an audience for that crap - let's see what happens if we take your professions of concern for animals at face value. And the thing hasn't come back to comment in any way about the much more significant cruelty issues I've been talking about. It doesn't give a shit about the suffering of animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 07:42 PM

" if you think that Iain's arguments on this forum are intelligent and well-educated, well either you don't read his posts or you're his doting auntie."

"I do indeed read his posts Steve. For instance, on the Charlie Gard thread, Iains provided a most interesting reference to another case of unnecessary resuscitation involving a policeman; a case which gave another perspective on the discussion."


...easy....

Iains is capable of posting intelligent, researched, meaningful contributions...

Inanes just posts confrontational right wing invective...

It just depends which one of these multiple personalities is occupying his head at any time he is posting at mudcat...??? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 17 - 08:13 PM

Good on ya, Jack!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 05:21 AM

A wider perspective:As far as the UK is concerned the last 30 years has seen a huge increase in legislation concerning food safety and animal welfare. This has mainly been driven by EU legislation. Many years ago I was able to put a couple of pigs in the back of a landrover and drive 5 miles to a local smallholder/butcher who processed much of his own meat.2 Days later I could pick up a couple of boxes of processed meat including virtually everything but the squeak. Today the increased legislation has destroyed all but a few of the old traditional abbatoirs. leading to large factory scale enterprises, created by the additional costs required for compliance. As a result animals travel further to slaughter houses. Not ideal but increased vigilance for food safety comes at the price of probable increased stress for the animals due to vastly increased journey times. (although even this is regulated)

Despite comprehensive legislation, inspections and controls, some abuse does occur, hence the call for cctv surveillance.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/farm-animal-welfare-during-transportation

https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/foi-approval-slaughterhouses.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1191286.stm (old but useful history)

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20150401003646/http://www.food.gov.uk/enforcement/monitoring/meat/reviewofmeatcontrols

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/welfare-of-animals-at-the-time-of-killing


http://www.oie.int/en/for-the-media/editorials/detail/article/the-role-of-the-veterinarian-at-the-abattoir/

https://www.gov.gg/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=102135&p=0

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 05:35 AM

Are you sure this isn't about your dislike of Islam?   Not sayin', just wonderin'...
What a weaselly cur you are shaw to make totally unsubstantiated allegations like the above.

I do think the moderators should make a stand on shaw's racist remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 06:54 AM

If you're really worried about halal, don't eat meat.   But don't come here pontificating about it unless you're prepared to pontificate about the widespread mistreatment of animals in general

I pay extra for organic milk, meat and eggs because the animals are reared in more natural and humane conditions.
That gives me the right to pontificate.

If veterinarians say Halal slaughter is less humane I believe them, and I want to have the choice as with "free range" "organic" "corn fed" etc.

Why do you want secrecy about it Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 07:15 AM

I would advocate the opposite of secrecy. All meat products should be clearly labelled as to how the the animals were treated during their life and how they were slaughtered at the end of it. Maybe even have videos taken from the CCTV that has been suggested playing at the butchers. I would then only purchase products from animals that had been treated to all the best things in life and slaughtered with love and tenderness. Or, better still, only eat animals that want to be eaten such as the Ameglian Major Cow.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 08:52 AM

Dislike of Islam...???

Basically... I don't like any religions or strict authoritarian cultural / political orthodoxies...

I wish they'd all pack up shop, release their followers, and vanish into history...

But that ain't ever gonna happen...

I'd like less hypocrisy from meat eaters, all animals are potential meat products.. including your beloved horses, cats and dogs.. even me and you...

Veggies and Vegans deserve respect to a great extent, but they are not without failings, and can be obnoxiously strident in their self righteousness...

I want best quality meat at the lowest prices I can afford.. so can't be too blind to the worst practices of the global meat industry...

Let us meat eaters not kid ourselves all our meat is from completely ethical [or non criminal] humane sources...

..and while we are carping on about animal cruelty.. spare a thought for carp in central & Eastern European street markets...

I'm off for a Tesco ham sandwich..

It looks like real ham at 3 or 4 quid a pack .. but I'm not convinced... 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 08:58 AM

I'd also like an easier way to put one word in italics when I'm just waking up...

ahem...

I'd like less hypocrisy from meat eaters, all animals are potential meat products.. including your beloved horses, cats and dogs.. even me and you...
Veggies and Vegans deserve respect to a great extent, but they are not without failings, and can be obnoxiously strident in their self righteousness...

I want best quality meat at the lowest prices I can afford.. so can't be too blind to the worst practices of the global meat industry...

Let us meat eaters not kid ourselves all our meat is from completely ethical [or non criminal] humane sources...

..and while we are carping on about animal cruelty.. spare a thought for carp in central & Eastern European street markets...

I'm off for a Tesco ham sandwich..

It looks like real ham at 3 or 4 quid a pack .. but I'm not convinced... 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 09:00 AM

.....it is not "Islamophobic" for someone to criticize everyday conservative Islam generally and Islamism in particular. On the contrary, criticism is a prerequisite for any lasting reformation within Islam.

Kacem El Ghazzali
Writer, activist, IHEU representative at the UN Human Rights Council

Huff Post

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 09:36 AM

In the meantime acts of cruelty such as this seem to pass without comment from those who would have us believe some other religions are barbaric :-(

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 09:40 AM

Dave's link is about bull fighting in Spain and nothing to do with any religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 03:44 PM

I don't know Keith. I know nothing of Foios, but Pamplona which it imitates is a different matter, and that is a celebration of the festival of San Fermin. It begins with a benediction before rockets are fired and the bulls are released. Not much which happens in Spain is nothing to do with religion. That is a legacy of Franco.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 06:52 PM

"I pay extra for organic milk, meat and eggs because the animals are reared in more natural and humane conditions.
That gives me the right to pontificate."

No it doesn't, you bloody hypocrite. It gives you the right for us to call you a pompous, self-righteous, holier-than-thou, sanctimonious, middle-class, smug git. Who gives a flying shit whether a turd like you has the extra disposable income that is not enjoyed by tens of millions on disability benefits/unemployment benefits/zero hours contracts/minimum wage/bogus self-employed/bogus apprenticeships/totally insecure employment? I hope your bloody organic nonsense gives you bellyache. Twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 07:39 PM

might be interesting to google "is organic meat cruelty free "...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 08:12 PM

If veterinarians say Halal slaughter is less humane I believe them

But Professor, are those LIVING veterinarians? Are they MAINSTREAM veterinarians? Are they EMINENT veterinarians? Are their books available in regular high-street bookstores?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 04:08 AM

Greg Your last post is simply provocation as you obviously have not bothered to read the previous links and the professional standing of the vets is quite obvious even to me.(a mental midget according to your tame acolyte jimmie.) However you just carry on doing what you and the rest of your ferrety little friends do best. We all know who they are.

Anyway below you can check out the standing of the vets and with a little effort you can understand what they say.

http://www.vetcontact.com/en/pdf/fve_ritual_slaughter.pdf


https://www.bva.co.uk/News-campaigns-and-policy/Newsroom/News-releases/BVA-calls-on-Government-to-end-non-stun-slaughter-on-day-


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-top-vet-sparks-controversy-with-call-for-ban-on-slashing-animals-throats

http://www.fve.org/news/position_papers/animal_welfare/fve_02_104_slaughter_prior_stunning.pdf

http://www.eurogroupforanimals.org/gaia-obtains-landmark-ban-non-stun-slaughter-flanders


https://lawyerssecularsociety.wordpress.com/2013/10/24/ritual-slaughter-whats-the-beef/
>

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 04:37 AM

Steve, your post is just personal abuse.
How many more decent members like Sen are you people going to drive away with your nastiness?
It is you people who should go so that Mudcat could be a nice place again.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 04:42 AM

Returning to the subject Steve, why do you want secrecy about how the animal was killed.
It is hugely important to Muslims, and they need to know if it is Halal or not.
People who prefer other methods also have a right to know.

We put other information on food labels, so why not that?

What is wrong with honesty and openness?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM

No word on the list I provided earlier then, Keith?

Shaw the simple reason that I would like to have the meat labelled as halal is that 20% of halal meat is slaughtered without prior stunning.
Perhaps if you read the links you also could be aware of this salient point.
I assume you are either a vegan or complete hypocrite.
...

So gnome you feel you know better than the FVE. Can you state your qualifications for such a statement or are you simply blowing smoke as usual?
...

Shaw you can use google as well as I can. Do your own homework!
...

D the g do you actually read what is posted?
...

well shaw and gnome lets have some of your counter arguments with the scientific evidence to support it. Chapter and verse if you don't mind. Interesting how you twist the argument.

Or does that not count as nasty personal abuse because it is not directed at you?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 05:11 AM

Dave,
No word on the list I provided earlier then, Keith?

I did not think you were being serious Dave.
Of course there is a sensible limit on the amount of information that can be put on labels.
Just because you can not say everything does not mean you must say nothing.

To know if the meat is Halal is of vital importance to millions of consumers, and of interest to millions more.
That is not true of anything on your "list."

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 05:19 AM

My list is the one at 04 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM. No idea which one you are referring to.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 05:23 AM

That was a justified direct attack on your naked hypocrisy, Keith, not personal abuse. You never can face the truth about yourself, If you want praise for buying your organic stuff, go and buy yourself a halo. While you're at it, you might just care to check how some of your organic stuff was actually reared and where it came from. I bought a bag of organic spuds last week that came from Israel.

And what's this twaddle about "secrecy" you keep accusing me of? You really are a tedious, vexatious man.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 05:25 AM

Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM
No word on the list I provided earlier then, Keith?

That list Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 05:26 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 06:52 PM
No it doesn't, you bloody hypocrite. It gives you the right for us to call you a pompous, self-righteous, holier-than-thou, sanctimonious, middle-class, smug git. Who gives a flying shit whether a turd like you has the extra disposable income that is not enjoyed by tens of millions on disability benefits/unemployment benefits/zero hours contracts/minimum wage/bogus self-employed/bogus apprenticeships/totally insecure employment? I hope your bloody organic nonsense gives you bellyache. Twat.

I enjoy well-reasoned, articulate debate.

The above posting totally fails!

Television may choose to prepare us for programmes with "Strong language". It is a misnomer. The type of language above is weak language. It is used by those without the wit to articulate themselves clearly without the use of invective and swearing.

I think I shall take the example of Senoufou, and leave this part of the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 05:28 AM

Steve,
That was a justified direct attack on your naked hypocrisy, Keith, not personal abuse.

Of course it was personal abuse. It was very abusive and I said nothing to deserve such a nasty personal attack.

And what's this twaddle about "secrecy" you keep accusing me of?

I thought that you objected to Halal meat being so labelled.
Do you or don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 05:48 AM

The list is in the posting of 04 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM and is a repeat of one I posted earlier. What has it to do with labels?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 06:22 AM

Go and boil your head. You have no reason to think that I have an opinion on that one way or the other.

Too bad, Nigel. He said that his purchasing of organic food gives him the right to pontificate. Well I don't think it does, frankly, and I think it was a pretty stupid thing to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 07:00 AM

Steve, this is the reason I believed you to be against labelling.

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 31 Jul 17 - 12:38 PM
"Any meat offered for human consumption where the annimal has not been stunned prior to slaughter should be clearly labelled as such in my view."
Should it really now.

You went on to list a whole lot of things that are not added to labels.

That gives the clear impression that you do not agree with labelling Halal.
Please clear up any confusion.
Do you or don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 07:04 AM

Dave,
. Maybe rather than a statement of whether the meat is Halal or not it should be a required certification that the animals did not suffer unnecessarily during the process?

How would that help Muslim folk who need to know that their meat is Halal?
Why not just label it?

You went on to say, " yes, it should be clearly labelled as Halal or Kosher. "
I agree.

What do you think Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 08:11 AM

I suggested labeling to give people a clear idea how the animals were kept while alive and how they were slaughtered. If they were slaughtered in accordance with Halal or Kosher rules it would say that in how they were killed. Do you agree or do you not think that everyone else is entitled to know what they are eating?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 08:12 AM

Oh yes, I'll clear up the confusion for you all right. My post had nothing to do with whatever opinion I may have about food labelling. My post was about the hypocrisy behind the suggestion that a method of slaughter should be indicated whilst all the outrages concerning animal welfare throughout their lives should be given a pass. The clear sentiment behind the suggestion was anti-Muslim. Hope this helps. Now just clear off, will you, you vexatious man.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 08:18 AM

You can't just keep telling him to clear off, Steve. You are sounding like him to me on the Labour party thread :-) Sorry, just had to point that out.

See, Keith. I do not always support Steve.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 08:48 AM

I sincerely hope that you're not trying to lose, Dave...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 09:08 AM

So should Halal meat be labelled as such, or not?
It can hardly be simpler!

Trying to get a clear statement of opinion from you two is like pulling teeth!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 09:35 AM

"So should Halal meat be labelled as such, or not?"

I don't care.. if it's meat... I'll eat it

I couldn't give a monkey's what religion the butcher and abattoir workers are..

I'm more concerned that the meat isn't actually monkey, or other endangered illegal bush meat..

or horse falsified as beef.. [if I fancy horse on my my plate, I'd ask specifically for it..]

or condemned diseased meat passed of as fresh..

We had enough exposure to Bovine spongiform encephalopathy to explain how some folks routinely behave in BS threads... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 09:57 AM

ALL animal products should be labeled with some sort of certification that the animals were well kept and slaughtered as humanely as possible. If they were slaughtered according to Halal or Kosher rules it should say that. I thought that I had said that but maybe I had not made it simple enough.

Are you saying that ONLY Halal and Kosher products should be labeled? Why have a set of rules to cover religious practices but not one to cover humanist ones?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 10:09 AM

One of the purposes of food labelling is to tell us where the food came from and to what standards it was produced. That way I can decide whether I want to buy or eat it. The let's-label-halal suggestion was anti-Muslim in intent. Asking whether halal meat should be labelled as such is of no interest to me whatsoever as it tells me nothing about its quality or whether good standards of husbandry were used. When Muslims need to know the specific nature of their meat, they can and do handle that very well. The suggestion that meat should merely be labelled halal as a priority over stating its other welfare standards, as Keith and Iains suggest, is no more than a very badly-disguised attack on Islamic tradition. The great thing about Keith and Iains is that they always badly disguise their prejudicial attacks. See Labour thread. Or, better for your health, don't bother.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 10:46 AM

This seems a very specious argument:
One of the purposes of food labelling is to tell us where the food came from and to what standards it was produced. That way I can decide whether I want to buy or eat it. The let's-label-halal suggestion was anti-Muslim in intent. Asking whether halal meat should be labelled as such is of no interest to me whatsoever as it tells me nothing about its quality or whether good standards of husbandry were used. When Muslims need to know the specific nature of their meat, they can and do handle that very well. The suggestion that meat should merely be labelled halal as a priority over stating its other welfare standards, as Keith and Iains suggest, is no more than a very badly-disguised attack on Islamic tradition.

When Halal meat was not easy to find, labelling it was helpful to Muslims, and not decried as being anti-Christian.
Now that it is becoming difficult to find non-Halal meat, asking that it be suitably labelled is "a very badly disguised attack on Islamic tradition".

As to "Islamic tradition", this would relate to dietary laws handed down to peoples living in much sunnier climates. The Christian tradition is based on the Bible (both New & Old testaments). We have (had) similar laws passed down from the book of Leviticus. We no longer follow these as they are not relevant to our climate and way of life.
That does not mean that we oppose others following these 'traditions', just ask that they do not impose them on everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 10:54 AM

I wouldn't mind having some meat imposed on me right now..

just eaten a dead boring cottage cheese sandwich...



Seriously, how on earth can any good healthy tasty belly filling meat be an imposition on a meat eater...????? 😕

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 11:16 AM

Just to reiterate...

I believe all religions have more than their fair share of hard core nutters,
and all religions could be encouraged to be positively modified,
and unshackle themselves from their barmier antiquated traditions and practices...

If only the will for change existed...

Ignorance is bliss....???

Now I'm not saying the UK population is uneducated and really thick,
but apparently in inner cities many children don't even understand that meat is a product of killing live animals...????

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 12:02 PM

Dear me, Nigel. A racist post. You're saying that we Christians are the only enlightened ones and that Muslims still live in the dark ages. Well, as I'm neither, let me tell you that I discern very little difference. I wish there was no religion at all, but, while we have it with us, it ill-behoves adherents of any particular brand of that area of superstition to assert superiority over any other. Next time you go, say one for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 12:21 PM

just trying to work out how many thousands of tasty pork sausages, bacon sarnies and pork chops I'd eagerly consumed;
before my mum sat me down and blurted out the full hidden truth...

Son, you are 18 now, you need to know that grandad, RIP, isn't your blood grandad,
your real grandad, RIP, is a Jew......

Well.. thanks for telling me all that mum... that's.. errrmmm.. interesting...

bollocks......
So can't a modern Jew openly enjoy a pork banger in public...???

Might partially explain why my parents brought me up to ignore religions and work out my own path in life.....??????

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 12:30 PM

Have you ever seen Leon the Pig Farmer, PFR? Wonderful film. Very funny, with a good message and the late, great Brian Glover. I am sure you would enjoy it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 12:36 PM

yeah.. when it came out.. but buggered if I can remember anything about it..

There was another hilarious pig oriented film back then ... post war rationing..??
was it Michael Palin...???

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 12:55 PM

Yep - A private function. Also very funny. I have been inspired to seek out both :-)

Must make sure I get a Kosher copy though...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 02:10 PM

The great thing about Keith and Iains is that they always badly disguise their prejudicial attacks

Well stevie chunder hows about you substantiate that statement or retract it.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 02:25 PM

Inanes - how about he does neither.. it's not necessary.. that'd be boring for all the rest of us..

From the limited number of BS threads I even bother to look at..
It's quite apparent what your 'team' get up to..

Your basic tactics are easily recognisable... 😣


On the other hand, your story about pigs in the land rover is interesting,
and chimes with memories of my childhood favourite uncle and piglets in a sack in the back of his transit...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 02:48 PM

If Halal meat is not labelled, how can a Muslim person know it is acceptable.
It is too important to most to take a chance.
It may not matter to you, but this is not about you.

You people see racism where there is none.
What possible objection can you have to honest labelling about something of vital importance to millions of consumers, and of interest to millions more.

How does it help anyone to keep it secret?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 02:54 PM

Keith [and others] - if Meat is clearly labeled "Halal" - would that be a deal breaker that would cause you to refuse to purchase it...???

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 03:04 PM

I would not buy it because I believe the veterinarians that it causes unnecessary suffering.
Nothing racist in that.
I choose organic for the same reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 03:32 PM

The only label that I would like to see is that slaughter was in line with EU legislation, not as the result of a dispensation. This would encompass all meat other than the approx. 20% halal that is not pre stunned prior to slaughter. At the end of the day dead is dead. Both religious and secular slaughter is supposed to be humane. The EU legislation has clearly been framed from the perspective that pre stunning is more humane.

I have no problem eating meat, but as I eat it I want to be satisfied it was not tortured prior to slaughter. Legislation concerning livestock controls every aspect of the animal's life from birth to death, with welfare being the main driver.
As I have previously outlined good stockmanship generates the greater profit. Poor shelter, poor feed, poor welfare, poor transportation impacts profit. Unlike certain donkey homes, farms are run as profit centers, not charities. Those fluffy lambs that get caught up in gorse or brambles cost money to dispose of, instead of making money when they reach killweight. There is sufficient risk in livestock farming, especially upland sheep, without adding cruelty to the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 04:11 PM

So do tell us, Keith, about how on EARTH have "Muslim folk" (patronising twat) managed until now to identify the kind of meat they are allowed to eat?

You couldn't make this up!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 04:56 PM

I am less than impressed with requirements of 'stunning' laid on by supposed professionals or experts. It may be a precurser to a form of killing that is undeniably coarse and painful. It may be an attempt to justify any kind of killing by assuring it is done in a pro forma manner.

I am guided by the works of Temple Grandin, someone whose story I've read and whose ideas on animal treatment I take seriously. Some of her writings on the internet are available here.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 05:51 PM

believe the veterinarians that it causes unnecessary suffering.

But Professor, Is that ALL veterinarians? Are those LIVING veterinarians? Are they MAINSTREAM veterinarians? Are they EMINENT veterinarians? Are their books available in regular high-street bookstores?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 05:57 PM

robomatic. interesting series of links, but I think the EU regulations are based on scientific standards at least of equivalence.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:303:0001:0030:EN:PDF

I am afraid I am slightly dubious of "scientific reports" written by advocates of halal or shechita slaughter. The results have to be agenda driven.

Religion versus reason has been a stumbling block in many spheres-and applies to most if not all religions and in my view the above "controversy" is but one more manifestation.
History shows that the advance of science faces numerous stumbling blocks without adding the vagaries of religion to the mix.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 06:18 PM

I am afraid I am slightly dubious of "scientific reports" written by advocates of halal or shechita slaughter.

Don't be afraid.

Are you equally dubious of "scientific reports" written by opponents of halal or shechita slaughter?

Possibly like the Professor's anonymous "veterinarians"?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 06:32 PM

WELL DONE GREG> It looks like you have finally managed to construct proper sentences. Did you pop up out of your burrow to make a meaningful contribution or just be a Vexatious little troll?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 06:49 PM

And Inanes: are you also dubious of analyses of halal slaughter made by anti-Muslim bigots like the OP of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 04 Aug 17 - 08:03 PM

we raise meat animals and have butchered some for our own use... since many of our neighbors are farmers and/or hunters we use a rifle to do the killing and then cut the jugular to bleed them out. Since the animal is at home and offered a favorite food they are not stressed and never know what hit them. we only do one at a time and away from the rest...

it's the big industrialized farming corporations that are run by bean counters, not husbandrymen that know and care for their stock, that I see as the real problem

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 06:26 AM

Steve,
So do tell us, Keith, about how on EARTH have "Muslim folk" (patronising twat) managed until now to identify the kind of meat they are allowed to eat?

If it is not labelled they can not be sure and are forced to go elsewhere when perfectly acceptable food is available.
They HAVE to find a source that IS labelled.

Do you object to labelling or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 06:34 AM

The Independent,
"Yet now the RSPCA says that, when compared to methods that involve stunning the animal beforehand, it can cause unnecessary suffering, pain and distress."
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/what-is-halal-meat-the-big-questions-about-religious-slaughter-answered-9331519.html
I believe the RSPCA.

The Guardian,
"The president-elect of the British Veterinary Association (BVA) John Blackwell said he wanted to discuss the (slaughter) issue with Jewish and Muslim groups in order to find a compromise that puts more emphasis on the welfare of the animal.
"I don't think an outright ban is a long way off, there is enough of a view that this practice is inhumane and causes suffering at the time of death," said Blackwell."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/reform-of-kosher-and-halal-slaughter-practices
I believe him.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 09:34 AM

Ok.. a more humane compromise...

Don't stun or kill animals for meat... eat them alive... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 09:40 AM

pfr how about you start to show us how it is done. I suggest you start with a saltwater croc and work up.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 10:06 AM

saltwater...???

sorry can't do... high blood pressure, salt is off the menu...

... and I don't like any fish or sea foods apart from cod in batter...

Actually, we haven't mentioned lobsters yet...
How humane is being boiled alive...????

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 10:45 AM

Back to the original question which still requires an answer!!!

I get the impression that all Indian restaurants now arrogantly offer only halal meat - even those which are Hindu owned. Are there any exceptions?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 10:58 AM

Bonz - all Indian Restaurants...????

Wot.. even the veggie restaurants...!!!??? 😝


[there used to be a great Indian Veggie Restaurant 'all u can eat' buffet in Islington...wonder if it's still there...???]

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 11:04 AM

Ah I hadn't thought of the veggie restaurants, but I think that we'll stick to Argentine beef which is reared for us "normal" meat eaters!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 11:42 AM

Bonz - whatever your reasons for starting it, this thread reminds me of militant food politics issues from my student days in the 1980s..
Stuff i no longer think about after years of succumbing to 'normal' consumer lifestyle intellectual torpor...

I tried being a veggie on and of for a few years, shared a flat with a completely spaced out vegan who had barely any sense of 'normality'...
I wonder how she's coped since, after 35 years of harsh reality...???

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 11:58 AM

So is it OK to label Halal or not?
I think it should be and have given my reasons.
I think Dave does too though he has been a bit ambiguous, but after all these posts who knows what Steve, Rag or PFR think about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 12:14 PM

Keith - what do i think about it...???

Well... I think you are really making an almighty meal of all this...

I've said quite explicitly in several posts I don't care..

It does not matter at all to me what religion butcher's and professional animal killers believe in.

Animals will suffer to some extent on the painometer however they are slaughtered...

I can't stand sanctimonious hypocrites...

That's what I think... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 12:30 PM

all Indian restaurants now arrogantly offer only halal meat

What exactly do you mean by "arrogantly"?

Anything like your arrogant disdain for all things Muslim?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 01:02 PM

PFR, you may not care but many people feel they have a right to know so they can make an informed choice, and do you not care about Muslim people's absolute need to know?

This is not just about you, and if you really do not care why do you keep posting?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 01:11 PM

Keith - remember.. your debate 'tactics' don't work with me..

I keep posting for my own amusement, and because I care deeply about food quality,
and genuine concerns about animal welfare for those that are killed to sustain me...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 01:15 PM

Btw.. my next door neighbour is a young catering manager, I think he may be muslim..
Shall I knock on his door and ask him to join mudcat to talk with you...??

Though I suspect he might be too busy with his work shifts and new born baby...

Poor chap looks very stressed enough as it is...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 03:01 PM

I am no devout anything, but I suppose that devout Muslims who want halal meat will go to a halal butcher.

Fer chrissake. They don't need labels, and if you want to know if any meat you buy is halal, well you've got a tongue in your head.

I buy a lot of stuff from my favourite butcher, with whom I have a great relationship, and I always ask him where his meat comes from. I can tell you precisely where he gets all his beef, pork, chickens and lamb from. A very odd thing, Keith, is that not one scrap of meat have I bought from him that ever had a label of any sort attached to it. Just for fun, one day I'll tell him all about you and ask him whether any of his meat is halal. I predict a funny uncomprehending look.

Why don't you join the real world instead of looking for trouble all the time? Go and have a foaming pint or ten in that nice pub down the canal in Hertford and mellow out.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 03:13 PM

I'm sure British Muslims will be so delighted that a goodly kindhearted christian is championing their dietary needs..

Without labels how would they ever know for certain what to buy,
and with them you'll have the immediate convenience of knowing what to avoid... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 03:55 PM

Anything like your arrogant disdain for all things Muslim?

Would that be like your arrogant disdain for all things Christian [sic}?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 04:09 PM

All things arrogant and disdainful
The lord god* made them all...


[* other gods are available]... 😇

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 04:19 PM

I am speaking purely from a Church of England viewpoint of course!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 04:50 PM

The foxhunting ban was created to prevent what was seen as needless cruelty of hunting foxes with dogs.
If this reasoning was sufficient to change the law then it is equally reasonable that the 20% of halal meat sold in the UK that is not prestunned should at least be labelled clearly so that those that feel strongly about it can make an informed choice. Many people buy meat from convenience stores and supermarkets so enquiring as to the provenance of the meat is not quite so straightforward as some would like to imagine.
There is an audit trail of the meat from birth to butchery and eventual sale, so recording the type of slaughter and labelling accordingly should be no big deal.
It seems to me that those that managed to work up a frenzy on the foxhunting thread should have similar feelings about needless cruelty on this thread also.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 05:11 PM

Iains - your reasoning is at least honest and to the point,
and deserving of more serious consideration than Keith's spurious excuses for labeling...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 05:11 PM

Iains - your reasoning is at least honest and to the point,
and deserving of more serious consideration than Keith's spurious excuses for labeling...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 05:11 PM

"...so recording the type of slaughter and labelling accordingly should be no big deal."

Great. So recording the whole upbringing of the animal from its birth, the level of welfare applied, whether intensively reared, free-range (whatever that means - have you ever looked into it, Iains?), organic, "freedom food," that vacuous thingie with the little red tractor, what antibiotics were routinely used in order to enable safer overcrowding... all this is not any of your concern. Well, obviously you don't want your label to be too complicated. Just the last few seconds of the animal's life needs highlighting. But only if it's halal. We're not asking for any other slaughter methods to be highlighted. Perhaps because "halal" is such a short, convenient, emotive word. That's all that seems to matter to you. That's your obsession. That last few seconds that just might have been brought about by an Islamic practice.

Know what that makes you, Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 05:13 PM

Back in the fifties my grandfather had a small poultry farm, he sold eggs and chickens to the butchers for small money to eke out the family budget.

At that time there were very few foreigners around only a few Indians and Pakistanis selling clothes from suitcases.
They wanted to buy some chickens from grandfather, but insisted that they had to be live.
My grandfather refused to sell them after finding out how they were to be slaughtered.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 05:23 PM

And how were they to be slaughtered? And did Grandad buy his pants from those guys? Bet they were good prices. And what is the point of your post?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 17 - 05:58 PM

Would that be like your arrogant disdain for all things Christian [sic}?

So you rather like rank hypocrites who claim to be Christians then, Boo?

No surprise there.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:14 AM

I think in the not-too-distant future we'll all be regarded as barbarians for eating animals

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 03:32 AM

That may be, robomatic, who can say?

However, I think it unlikely: the moral dimension of eating meat has been discussed for many centuries without being settled. More likely, I think, it that it will more influenced by fashion and economics than morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 05:11 AM

Shaw.
" So recording the whole upbringing of the animal from its birth, the level of welfare applied, whether intensively reared, free-range (whatever that means - have you ever looked into it, Iains?)"

For a man that claims to do his homework Shaw you appear woefully ignorant.
Are you here to stimulate discussion or merely to provoke argument and dissent????????????????????????????????

The links below are an incomplete brief synopsis of the required records for all livestock to satisfy EU regulations.
AS can be seen each animal has a discrete herd number and unique tag.Records must be kept of it's movement, feed regime, and veterinary treatments up to the time of slaughter. With computerised records it is the press of a button to generate the necessary labels.
If you wish to start a thread about little red tractors, feel free! Perhaps the more adult of us can then continue.
Furthermore you must be remarkably dense or pursuing a clearly racist agenda with your fixation on halal food. I have clearly stated innumerable timess that my concern is with the 20% halal meat that is not pre-stunned.
Your constant harping on about racism is clearly just to provoke argument. Do you not think you have done enough damage driving people away over the last couple of days?
Shaw"Perhaps because "halal" is such a short, convenient, emotive word. That's all that seems to matter to you. That's your obsession. That last few seconds that just might have been brought about by an Islamic practice."
Again an example of you carefully missing a clearly stated argument in order to pursue your racist labeling. You are a disgrace!


http://smallholderseries.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=382:legal-documents-a-paperwork-a-guide-to-registeri


https://www.daera-ni.gov.uk/publications/templates-required-records-animal-food-and-feed-hygiene

https://www.gov.uk/topic/keeping-farmed-animals/cattle-identity-registration

https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/animals-and-agriculture/keeping-veterinary-medicine-records

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:14 AM

Still no answer - I get the impression that all Indian restaurants now arrogantly offer only halal meat - even those which are Hindu owned. Are there any exceptions?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:19 AM

"And how were they to be slaughtered? And did Grandad buy his pants from those guys? Bet they were good prices. And what is the point of your post?"

They were to have a small incision made in the throat and hung up till they had bled to death. The incision had to be small to prolong life so that all blood had drained from the carcase.
My Grand father was a born and bred countryman with a wonderful understanding of animal and human life, he was also an expert beekeeper, specialising in Scottish heather honey.
There was not an inch of cruelty in his body, he is still fondly remembered in these parts, though he died in the 1960s.
He was appalled when he learned about the means of slaughter which were to be employed
When hens had to be killed for local consumption, grandfather would "thraw the neck" a skill which made death instantaneous and pain free.

As the Indian traders sold mainly rubbish at inflated prices grandfather used the draper who ran a mobile shop over a wide local area....They point of my post is that IMO the halal method of slaughter is cruel and based on a warped religious doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:35 AM

It's rather odd to be accused of being fixated on halal when I'm posting in a thread about halal...😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:38 AM

Just to demonstrate my default stance of relative neutrality and objectivity...

It's the 21st Century.

Labels could be based on bar code or similar technology and easily scanned with mobiles phones.
Giving scope for as much text as required.

The problematic area is obviously what information and why...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:41 AM

Suppose you put "halal" on a label. I wonder how many people would know what it meant...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 07:53 AM

"Suppose you put "halal" on a label. I wonder how many people would know what it meant... "

Probably not the poor schoolchildren that you taught. They were probably fixated on escaping from your "winning ways"

Alternatively it gives the rest of us a wonderful insight into your arrogant air of superiority. The rest of humanity are not as ignorant as you would presume shaw.

Now where were we before you butted in?(again)

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 08:06 AM

What a silly post. Each and every one of the thousands of children lucky enough to be taught by me is now a senior professor at Oxbridge, except for one. Disappointingly, one of them only managed it at Imperial College, but I'll get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 08:06 AM

I'd expect "Halal" is a trigger word demonised by the likes of the Mail and Express, and even more virulent online blog sites..
So a large proportion of their mass readership would probably be conditioned into a response of disgust and terror if seeing it on a food label...???

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 08:25 AM

Exactly, pfr. In other words, the campaign to get halal on food labels has racist undertones. I mean, why not put on the label "this chicken was injected with antibiotics to enable the farmer to keep it in overcrowded conditions in a darkened shed with 40,000 other birds". Or, "this milk was produced by a highly-bred cow with an udder so huge that it has trouble moving around the field for half the day". Or, "this pork chop came from a pig that was force-fed in stinking concrete sheds crowded together with other pigs, covered in shit, for the whole of its life and it never saw the light of day..."

Anyone else detect the rank smell of hypocrisy...?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 08:36 AM

Irate Diner - "Waiter.. Waiter.. what's this Halal meat doing on my plate !!!!!!!???"

Waiter - "I am so sorry Sir, please try to stay calm and still..
it's plotting the downfall of Christian British traditions and values..
I'll report chef immediately to the anti terrorism authorities..."... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 09:21 AM

Pfr Could have been worse. It might have been cloned meat.
    (The language is strong!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZm0yMNud9g

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 09:47 AM

You eat cloned potatoes, cloned apples, cloned strawberries, cloned lots of things already. Every Bramley apple ever eaten is a clone derived from a single original tree. It's over 200 years old. Last I heard it wasn't very well. Funny, innit.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 10:18 AM

You may be right Shaw but humanity is saved. There will not be a clone of you!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 10:30 AM

I grew up on Bowyers Steak and Kidney pies and Brain's Faggots...

[council estate factory pay packet affordable diet]

Lovely natural healthy nourishing grub.... 😬

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 11:36 AM

all Indian restaurants now arrogantly offer only halal meat

Lets try for the third time:

What exactly do you mean by "arrogantly"?

Anything like your arrogant disdain for all things Muslim?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 11:50 AM

Pfr,
Keith's spurious excuses for labeling...

Why do you have to say nasty things like that?
I stand by everything I have said, and none of it is "spurious."
Why can we not just discuss the issues without being personal and nasty about it?

This is not about food quality. I am aware of no difference in quality between Halal, Kosher and regulation meat.
My only case is about labelling which you say you do not care about, so why even address posts to me?

Steve,
Muslims who want halal meat will go to a halal butcher.

Yes, and they are always clearly labelled and no-one objects.
There are none here or in any of the local towns that I know of, and Muslims shop in our local supermakets where meat is not labelled.

if you want to know if any meat you buy is halal, well you've got a tongue in your head.

So any labelling is superfluous? We should all form orderly queues to ask if it is Halal or organic or where from or free range or full fat or........

We label for other information so why not Halal, Kosher, etc.
What is your problem with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 11:54 AM

Keith - "Why do you have to say nasty things like that?"

I am so sorry Sir, please try to stay calm and still... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:03 PM

Keith - "Why do you have to say nasty things like that?"

at mudcat I indulge in sarcasm and absurdity;
if in the 3D world you were to ever experience me being nasty [rare.. but it has been known],
then you would really know the meaning of that word...

Word of advice.. stop playing the pitiful victim.. it's embarrassing to witness for a grown man of your mature years... 😒

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:06 PM

Steve,
Suppose you put "halal" on a label. I wonder how many people would know what it meant...

Why does that matter?
Some people need to know, some would just like to know, and many just do not care.

Why would you want to conceal it?


Exactly, pfr. In other words, the campaign to get halal on food labels has racist undertones.

What utter nonsense. There is nothing racist about it, or are the RSPCA and the British Veterinary Association all racists?
You are like a modern day witch finder with your obsession with racism.

I mean, why not put on the label "this chicken was injected with antibiotics to enable the farmer to keep it in overcrowded conditions in a darkened shed with 40,000 other birds". Or, "this milk was produced by a highly-bred cow with an udder so huge that it has trouble moving around the field for half the day".

No need for that label. It all is except for organic products, which are clearly labelled.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:09 PM

Pfr, it is possible to have a serious discussion without being nasty.
Nastiness like that drives decent people away, as witness Senoufou and Nigel.
It will never drive me away however.

Yes you can be nasty, but you do not have to be.

Subject: OpingRE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:16 PM

Keith - Coping with my mother's dementia has vastly improved my threshold of patience
and ability to humour less than reasonable and rational behaviour...

Be happy you [and others] are reaping the benefit.... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:27 PM

No it all isn't. Don't talk daft. You are racist for highlighting your desire to see halal labelling only and no other aspect of welfare or husbandry because you want to see your fellow tabloiders "outraged" by what you would like to be the fact that Muslims are leading us all by the nose. It's the same as the confected outrage about "Sharia Law taking the country over." Halal butchers may say what they are over the shop but the meat inside is no more labelled than the meat in any other butchers. Not once has anyone in this thread indicated that lack of labelling is a problem for Muslims. To me, that's the only thing that matters.   And watch your language. You've just referred to halal, kosher and "regulation," as if there's something wrong with halal and kosher. Subliminal...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:29 PM

Pfr, please identify any less than reasonable or irrational posts from me.
I say you can not, and you are resorting to more personal abuse because you can not actually challenge a single thing I have posted.

Prove me wrong why don't you?
I do not think you will.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:31 PM

I wouldn't worry about Keith's definition of nasty PFR. If he say that someone has shit morals, that their opinions are just mindless whims and then tells them to fuck off it is fine. I would apply the same rules if I was you.

You have set me off thinking though. I have just been to see my Mum who also suffers from dementia and you have just helped me put 2 and 2 together. One of the symptoms is going on and on about the same pointless things. I have, like you, learned to very patient. I have just realised that I should be more patient on here and keep repeating the same answers no matter how many times I am asked.

Thanks.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:34 PM

Another symptom is believing they are being perfectly reasonable and rational. The picture is getting clearer by the minute...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:43 PM

D tG - at least my mum never learned to use computers and the internet... 😜



[shame really, skype would be so helpful..
seriously considering getting broadband for her house,
with view to eventually installing strategically positioned 24/7 monitoring web cams...]

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:46 PM

Steve,
You are racist for highlighting your desire to see halal labelling only

Also Kosher, and for the same non racist and purely rational reasons I have given.
You call me racist and other nasty names because you can not answer what I actually say.

and no other aspect of welfare or husbandry

For myself, buying organic means I know it is not injected with hormones or anti-biotics or reared in intensive systems.
Anyone who cares about those things has the choice because organic food is labelled.

It's the same as the confected outrage about "Sharia Law taking the country over

I have never expressed such a ludicrous view and never would. Why mention it?

Halal butchers may say what they are over the shop but the meat inside is no more labelled than the meat in any other butchers

The sign is as good as a label.

Not once has anyone in this thread indicated that lack of labelling is a problem for Muslims

I have, and it must be where Halal specialist shops are not available.

To me, that's the only thing that matters.

Lucky you. What about the millions who need to know and the millions more who would like to know.

You've just referred to halal, kosher and "regulation," as if there's something wrong with halal and kosher. Subliminal...

You are truly obsessed to the point of being deranged. Halal and Kosher butchers are not bound by the regulations on slaughter that apply to others.

The RSPCA and the British Veterinary Association say that there is something wrong with Halal and Kosher slaughter, because it causes unnecessary suffering.
Do you know better?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:48 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:51 PM

Dave and Pfr, please identify any less than reasonable or irrational posts from me.
I say you can not, and you are resorting to more personal abuse because you can not actually challenge a single thing I have posted.

If I am wrong, produce a quote of mine to support you abusive assertions.

Instead of slandering others, why not just discuss the issues?
I think it is because you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:54 PM

So you didn't tell me I had shit morals, that my opinions were mindless whims and to fuck off then, Keith? Are you sure of that?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:55 PM

Steve, you imagine you know more about animal welfare than the RSPCA and the British Veterinary Association, but you are deluded.

You are just race obsessed and your hubris makes you laughable.
Ha ha.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 12:56 PM

Keith - have you actually asked any British Muslims
if they need your altruistic intervention, and persistent campaigning, to champion Halal labeling on their behalf...???

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 01:15 PM

Have you actually asked any British Muslims if they object to labelling or find the lack of it inconvenient?

I was once with a Muslim who was wrongly told a sausage was Halal, and saw his distress when he found he had in fact eaten pork.

I do not need to ask as it must be a problem in areas without specialist shops.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 01:17 PM

So you didn't tell me I had shit morals, that my opinions were mindless whims and to fuck off then, Keith? Are you sure of that?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 01:21 PM

Pfr...I think you are being needlessly obstructive here. Keith is obviously making a serious and accurate point, I don't understand why you are trying to obstruct him in that.

Well meaning tip.......Don't join that gang you are several classes better.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 01:33 PM

ake, using Keith's rules it is reasonable and rational to tell you to fuck off. But I will not do that. Just point out that it is difficult to take any notice of a someone who says he has been a lifelong socialist and then tells us he votes tory.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 01:33 PM

Ake - I remain as always an asocial misfit.. i never join any gangs...

I let objective reasoning guide my judgement..
and in this 'debate' i find keith to be even more lacking & questionable than others I might disagree with...

.. and that's all there is to it..

no malice or 'nastiness' intended..........

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 01:37 PM

Dave, here is my comment on your morality in context.

"I would defend any faith from such an attack.
Why do you only and always attack Christianity?
Because you feel safe from getting something nasty in return.
That is your morality, and I think it is shit."

The "fuck off" was in reply to you saying, "I am just not prepared to discuss anything with a devious sociopath who will stop at nothing to win imagined points. Is that clear enough?"

I repied, "Then fuck off and allow anyone else to discuss what they want with who they want, instead of joining the continuing domination of the thread by your gang of cronies."

I do not remember the "mindless whims" but I think it was because you could not support your assertions with any actual facts, or any evidence at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 01:40 PM

PFR, instead of just asserting that something I have said is" lacking & questionable" please produce an example.
Make it a really bad one!

The fact is you are just slandering me because you have no reply to what I have actually said.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 01:47 PM

A survey carried out several years ago.: I draw your attention to the last line in the article:"But Maajid Nawaz of the Quilliam Foundation, a Muslim think-tank set up to challenge extremism, said: "All halal meat in the UK should be pre-stunned."


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/halal-meat-most-britons-want-3524498

An interesting extract from an article about definition of halal:

"Some Muslims, however, insist that stunning is not halal. They can say so with some confidence, because there is no single halal authentication body: five different certification authorities exist in the UK alone (and dozens more abroad), each with a different interpretation of what exactly is permissible.

The Halal Monitoring Committee or HMC, for example, based in Leicester, considers all pre-stunning an offence against Quranic law and tradition. The more progressive Halal Food Authority or HFA is perfectly happy to permit stunning, providing of course the animal is still alive at the time of slaughter.
Advertisement

Other authentication bodies around the world are reportedly even more liberal, allowing the Shahadah or Islamic blessing to be recited just once, at the start of the day, in abattoirs using fixed automated blades – or even to be pre-recorded and played continuously on a sound system.

With no consistent, internationally recognised labelling system, the result is that consumers may often have no idea they are buying halal meat, let alone how the animal was slaughtered. "It would all be a lot easier," says David Bayer of one of Britain's largest meat wholesalers, DB Foods in Poole, Dorset, "if there was more transparency, a more unified approach."

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 02:05 PM

..and as unhealthy for mudcat as it is to dwell on this and indulge Keith's excesses...

Keith - You personalise this, you always resort to whining accusations of "why is everybody always picking on me"

You always distract from and hijack a debate with your oversensitive, over defensive, paranoid obsession that any disagreement with you is a nasty attack on your character..

You are just simply detrimental to the mudcat community.

I was instructed by a high rank mod to stop interacting with you a year ago, because you were unwell...
I tried my best...

Thankfully, you now appear much better and in good enough health again for the rough and tumble of BS..
and my sincere best wishes, long may you continue...

So act like an adult and not a winging manipulative schoolkid goody two shoes..


I seriously really like and respect Sen.
I am so annoyed that you are claiming ownership of her, and blaming those who stand up to you for driving her away...

is this clear enough...???

I really would not like to have to resort to being genuinely 'nasty'...

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 02:07 PM

So, basically then Keith, what you are saying is if you feel you can justify it, any amount of abuse or invective is OK. Fine. As long as I know the rules I can live with that.

Now, go and stick your futile excuses up your arse and let normal people discuss things in a grown up manner.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 02:18 PM

Well Shaw are you still going to argue the toss over a PIG IN A POKE and insist the entire EU is racist for requiring labelling.

Once again your arguments are clearly shown to be specious!



http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=84933
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/new-eu-rules-require-compulsory-labelling-of-halal-meat-2006114.html
http://www.evana.org/index.php?id=56622
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/if-we-cant-ban-halal-meat-we-should-at-least-let-people-know-when-theyre-buying-it-a7178481.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 03:17 PM

Its good to see people are still passionate about murder.
It beats apathy. Now someone will become indignant about beating apathy as being cruel and inhumane.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 17 - 05:37 PM

Silly Inanes. Silly Keith. Inane Iains. Inane Keith. Quite possibly, though I'm no medic, insane Iains and insane Keith. Thread gone daft. Much ado about bugger all. Once again, Keith makes everything about "me the victim." Move along please. Nothing to see here.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 03:03 AM

End of!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 05:49 AM

PFR
Keith - You personalise this, you always resort to whining accusations of "why is everybody always picking on me"

Completely untrue.
I object to nastiness whoever it is directed at. I objected to Greg's abusive post against Senoufou and Steve's aggressiveness to her.

Why must you do it?
Why not just discuss the issues.
You say you have no interest in the issue I am discussing anyway so you only post here to to be abusive.
Why do you do it?
Please all of you stop.

Dave,
So, basically then Keith, what you are saying is if you feel you can justify it,

No. Basically I am saying that taken in context I was not being abusive.

any amount of abuse or invective is OK.

No. I hate it and have constantly campaigned against it.

Now, was I correct in saying that you do not oppose labelling Halal meat?

Steve, you oppose the labelling of Halal meat but have completely failed to make any case at all.
Just more of your obsession with race, which has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion.

I favour labelling and gave clear reasons for it supported by facts and hard evidence.
You produced nothing but abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 05:59 AM

Basically I am saying that taken in context I was not being abusive.

In that case then, Keith, neither was I.

Now, was I correct in saying that you do not oppose labelling Halal meat?

I don't know how I can make it any clearer. I think all meat should be labeled with how it was kept when alive and how it was slaughtered. By default that includes Halal and Kosher methods. I do not believe that ONLY Halal meat needs to be labeled.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 06:21 AM

I have also made the same case as Dave in a number of carefully-considered posts in this thread. I regard your accusation that I've made no case to be bullying and abusive. Your case appears to be that halal meat should be be labelled as such. You are silent about other aspects of welfare and husbandry, unlike me and Dave who have tried to balance the discussion by bringing in aspects that we may regard as far more importantt than the few seconds surrounding the animal's slaughter. You brag about your expensive organic habit in Holy Joe fashion and profess that this qualifies you to pontificate. Your words. Halal is an Islamic tradition. You have homed in on it as though it's some kind of egregious practice that we simply must be told about, far more significant than all the other welfare issues. To focus obsessively in veiled pejorative terms on an Islamic tradition that is actually fairly innocuous when set alongside the other things that we do to animals is racist. Now that's my case. It is not "no case." It happens be be at odds with yours, and, what's more, it's far more carefully-considered and neutrally-expressed than your single bleat that halal must be labelled.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 06:27 AM

US prisons are a huge market for kosher and halal products.
Allegedly those meals are superior to 'Christian' food.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 06:44 AM

Steve,
You are silent about other aspects of welfare and husbandry,

I have not been silent.
I choose not to buy animal products where hormones or antibiotics are used or the animals are kept in unnatural intensive conditions.

That is pretty much all non-organic products. It makes them cheaper than organic products and I choose to pay more.

I accept that not everyone can afford to pay more, and industrialised food is cheaper.

Price is not an issue with Halal and Kosher. It probably costs more.
Race is certainly not an issue.

Given a choice I would avoid eating animals that have not been stunned, but lack of labelling takes away that choice. However I do choose to eat in Indian restaurants and holiday in Muslim countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 07:21 AM

I refuse to eat food that is dictated by some cranky religion - any cranky religion, which apart from the Church of England means pretty well all of them - especially those advertising on the back of buses!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 09:50 AM

ny cranky religion, which apart from the Church of England means pretty well all of them

Jesus wept. (as it were)

Keith makes everything about "me the victim."

Exactly like Trump! Are you sure that The Professor isn't one of Trump's inner circle, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 10:55 AM

Greg, despite all the days of abuse Steve does not disagree with anything I or Senoufou have said, and neither does PFR.

If that is not true, I challenge them to quote something I have said that they think is wrong.

All that nastiness was for nothing.
It drove at least one person, Nigel, from the thread and at least one, Senoufou, away from Mudcat altogether.

Why do you people have to be so nasty all the time?
Why not just discuss the issues?
We need people like Senoufou much more than we need you and your aggression.

Steve,
I have also made the same case as Dave in a number of carefully-considered posts in this thread.

Really? You have not said if you oppose the labelling Halal or not!
Never mind all the other things, we are talking about Halal and Kosher. Yes or no?

Your case appears to be that halal meat should be be labelled as such.

Yes it is. Do you agree or not?

Your words. Halal is an Islamic tradition. You have homed in on it as though it's some kind of egregious practice that we simply must be told about, far more significant than all the other welfare issues.

Completely untrue. It is not more significant than other issues like hormones, antibiotics and intensive rearing.
I can avoid all of those by buying organic.

Halal and Kosher killing is a significant issue because the RSPCA and the Veterinary Association say it causes unnecessary suffering, but there is no requirement for it to be labelled.
Why do you object to it being labelled, if you do!

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 11:12 AM

Keith, it seems to me your sole purpose in the threads you infest is to keep them going endlessly. You tell people what they must respond to, and how they must respond, then you find some other statement you can pry open and continue to do the same thing with. It's trolling. It's polite trolling, but still trolling. You poke people to make them jump. You hold up hoops for them to jump through. I have serious doubts about whether you should continue to post in BS, but I would really hope others, as perhaps Jim has, refuse to be manipulated further.

The problem (for me, and for any thread you sink your teeth into) is, I think they enjoy being manipulated.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 12:36 PM

Less as time goes on. I think you're right: he's best ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 12:37 PM

You are quite right, Jeri. Thank you. No more for me either.

Keith. If they are of interest to me I will still respond to your points. Once and once only. Maybe now you have been told that it is not just me you may take notice.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 12:59 PM

"Jamaica... No.. She went of her own accord"

Keith - however much you and other cronies of the self appointed sanctimonious mudcat 'moral majority' insist,
whatever devious spin you promote..

nobody ever drives anyone else away..

They leave of their own free volition...

You are not a mind reader, you do not know why they decide to go..

But you seized and exploited the opportunity to 'weaponise' Sen's departure
for your own cynical attention seeking motivation and gains..
To further discredit and attack your 'enemies' and rally potential malleable sympathisers to your camp.....




I've been away from mudcat all day, not because of anything anyone said,
but because the wife is off work and we had better things to do in bed.... 😍

When I do go, it'll be quietly without any grandiose diva histrionics...

Would't want anyone trying to claim a victory from my going... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 02:32 PM

Jeri,
I made only one case in this thread, that Halal and Kosher meat should be labelled, and gave reasons for it.
No-one has challenged anything I have said, they just accused me of racism, which is ridiculous.

Thank you for at least acknowledging that I am polite.

PFR, re Senoufou,
She received an unprovoked abusive post from Greg, which clearly upset her.
I was the only person to criticise Greg or support her.
That whole exchange has now been deleted.

Her last post was to dare to criticise Steve for his aggressive posting.
Her last words before announcing her departure,
" (Steve's) posts, which seem lately to be getting increasingly confrontational, personally insulting and stroppy. "

I have nothing more to say on any of these topics, but will answer any points put to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Standard meat Indian restaurants?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 17 - 02:55 PM

Keith - We welcome your contributions when you are at your best and making good clear intelligent points.
But as discussed so many times before, you are your own worst enemy
and nearly always undermine your credibility with a relentless barrage
of needy repetitious spamming pleas for attention...

You also do not help by habitually sinking to playing the innocent victim.

I believe you have been allowed a free pass to create disruption and rancour for far too long.

Yes, you present the demeanour of civility and politeness of a traditional British gentleman..
But so do many of the classic smarmy weasely treacherous literary and cinematic villains...

I'm not too confident I know the exact accurate meaning of the term 'passive aggressive', so avoid using it..
however......


Please spend more time reading and properly comprehending what the rest of us post,
and less time writing excessively copious screeds of denial and blame..
We'll all be happier and get on much more positively