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BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 06:26 PM
DMcG 19 Jan 18 - 06:26 PM
Greg F. 19 Jan 18 - 06:17 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 05:36 PM
DMcG 19 Jan 18 - 05:27 PM
Raggytash 19 Jan 18 - 05:22 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 05:21 PM
bobad 19 Jan 18 - 05:01 PM
Iains 19 Jan 18 - 04:50 PM
Raggytash 19 Jan 18 - 04:02 PM
Iains 19 Jan 18 - 03:30 PM
DMcG 19 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 03:12 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 03:10 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM
Iains 19 Jan 18 - 01:50 PM
DMcG 19 Jan 18 - 01:10 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 01:04 PM
Iains 19 Jan 18 - 11:56 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 10:15 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Jan 18 - 08:57 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 08:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Jan 18 - 08:35 AM
Raggytash 19 Jan 18 - 08:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Jan 18 - 07:57 AM
Raggytash 19 Jan 18 - 07:45 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 07:39 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Jan 18 - 07:08 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 06:49 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM
Iains 19 Jan 18 - 06:12 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 05:54 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM
Raggytash 19 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Jan 18 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jan 18 - 05:19 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 04:55 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Jan 18 - 04:43 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Jan 18 - 02:32 AM
DMcG 19 Jan 18 - 02:23 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jan 18 - 08:06 PM
DMcG 18 Jan 18 - 05:47 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jan 18 - 05:41 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jan 18 - 05:25 PM
Raggytash 18 Jan 18 - 04:08 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:26 PM

I will not, Greg! I will not! I am no Keith!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:26 PM

With so many intangibles being thrown into the air having heated arguments is rather pointless ... Leave and remain are entrenched positions on here and unlikely to change without someone making huge concessions and I consider that unlikely.

I agree with your second point. However, should there be a minor miracle and one side here completely convert to the other, it would not make a jot of difference to the outcome, which is being decided in rooms well beyond our influence. It would be possible to draw the conclusion that therefore we are just wasting our time talking at all: we should just sit here and be the passive recipients of anything that happens. That seems to add weight to your first point, but I don't think that is right. We are told more and more about "the bubble" where you only hear from people you agree with: there is a merit in hearing from those you don't agree with. It need not be about one side 'converting' the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:17 PM

Jaysus. Steve, you've got to get on board with the rest of the post-factual world, dontcha know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:36 PM

The Guardian has a long history of inviting people of all political colours to write columns. In addition, the paper is not owned by a media proprietor. The Guardian gets lots of things wrong but it gets more right than most other papers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:27 PM

I frequently reference Hansard, which rarely draws any comments either....


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:22 PM

There are some who consider the Guardian to be extremely left wing newspaper. There are some who consider the Mail to be extremely left wing newspaper, figures in this regard were posted a few day ago.

The Guardian has long been considered by most discerning people to be a liberal paper. Thus my use of it as a source.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:21 PM

"I prefer to regard my line spacings as an aid to clarity."

"Raggytash. I also construct numerous links to offer support to the points I make. However it is a failing of many on here to look at the source provider(eg CNN) and then promptly rubbish the content. For the most part supposed facts can easily be checked. A political story will be reported by left, right and the center with the associated bias provided as a freebie.
However when it comes to Brexit the argument revolves around a total unknown, With so many intangibles being thrown into the air having heated arguments is rather pointless. The entire proposition is in a state of flux and quite honestly having heated arguments over hypothetical scenarios is a waste of time. Leave and remain are entrenched positions on here and unlikely to change without someone making huge concessions and I consider that unlikely. The two sides are never going to agree and if the postings exceed 10000 nothing will have changed.
I read your links but obviously they are chosen to back up your position. The Guardian is very good at presenting biased opinions as facts. Many on here present opinion as facts. Some of us make it a point to carefully discriminate between the two, others are more "careless".
   I could respond to your links in the way others do and rubbish the source but I would regard that as a cop out."


Bwahahahaha!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:01 PM

Usual response when shown to be in error, start claiming to be a victim, and insult others.

Spot on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:50 PM

Raggytash. I also construct numerous links to offer support to the points I make. However it is a failing of many on here to look at the source provider(eg CNN) and then promptly rubbish the content. For the most part supposed facts can easily be checked. A political story will be reported by left, right and the center with the associated bias provided as a freebie.
However when it comes to Brexit the argument revolves around a total unknown, With so many intangibles being thrown into the air having heated arguments is rather pointless. The entire proposition is in a state of flux and quite honestly having heated arguments over hypothetical scenarios is a waste of time. Leave and remain are entrenched positions on here and unlikely to change without someone making huge concessions and I consider that unlikely. The two sides are never going to agree and if the postings exceed 10000 nothing will have changed.
I read your links but obviously they are chosen to back up your position. The Guardian is very good at presenting biased opinions as facts. Many on here present opinion as facts. Some of us make it a point to carefully discriminate between the two, others are more "careless".
   I could respond to your links in the way others do and rubbish the source but I would regard that as a cop out.
Below is a typical example:

"Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 02:15 PM

Teribus, do you read anything other than pro-Brexit Tory Shit-Rags?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:02 PM

Iains, Nigel,

Have you anything to say on the issue of Brexit? Over the past few weeks I have linked to numerous newspaper articles on the subject.

I cannot recall any post either of you have made in response to those articles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:30 PM

"Your mate Iains makes this comment, in a sentence of its own, TWO PARAGRAPHS away from the bit about Normandy beaches:"

The only specific time period mentioned is D Day. Now who was in charge of most of europe at this period of time? On D day only a few beach heads were held by the allies. Therefore to belabour the point for absolute clarity, most of Europe was under the control of the Nazi party at this time. Why deliberately introduce red herrings? Would you like some history books? For a well educated scientist I would have thought you might have learnt a few dates and be able to join a few dots in order to link events to a logical timeframe.
Perhaps if you ask Dave the gnome nicely he will be able to educate you, he being of Polish ancestry like.

I prefer to regard my line spacings as an aid to clarity. This is to aid those such as your goodself, but in your case it is obviously a lost cause. You may call them paragraphs if you wish, some may argue the point. I care not a whit either way. It is a device largely on a par with using indents or bullet points


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5367307/irish-pm-leo-varadkar-infuriates-leavers-after-suggesting-he-pities-british-ww2-veterans-o


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Subject: RE: BS: Pos"t Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM

Well we won't have to worry about things like this after Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:12 PM

Hmm. Missing article, missing close bracket!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 03:10 PM

Incidentally, it's a shame that your quoted guru on the writing of good English can't actually, er, write good English. In the section you put in bold I spotted at least three basic errors, thus:

Example: English grammar is a complex topic that covers a range of information. At the "word" level, one must learn about parts of speech. At the "sentence" level, topics like [like?] sentence structure, subject/verb agreement, [any idea what that comma's doing there?] and clauses must be explored. The rules governing punctuation use are also a part of "sentence" level grammar. Once a person starts writing [missing article! larger piece, he or she must also learn about paragraph structure and organization. All of these rules define and describe how to write English correctly.

Just thought I'd mention it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM

'Ave a word in Nigel's shell-like, Iains. 'Twas he who "adjusted" your post, not I. I merely picked up on the fact that he'd done it, and done it quite likely for nefarious purposes, who knows. Now if it's all right with you I'm wanting to get back to the disaster aka brexit. Over and out with you on this one. I find you're not really worth it. You're way too jealous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 01:50 PM

=I haven't corrected any grammar! What are you on about? :-)"

Were you not drivelling on mindlessly about paragraphs?

Here is some info on paragraphs to aid you in the future when looking for thread distraction topics:

Example: English grammar is a complex topic that covers a range of information. At the "word" level, one must learn about parts of speech. At the "sentence" level, topics like sentence structure, subject/verb agreement, and clauses must be explored. The rules governing punctuation use are also a part of "sentence" level grammar. Once a person starts writing larger piece, he or she must also learn about paragraph structure and organization. All of these rules define and describe how to write English correctly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 01:10 PM

Optimism will often get us further than pessimism.
As for my 'strategy', I have none. I'm not a politician.
Come to that, I don't feel I need a strategy.


That's one area we disagree. You do not need a strategy to solve the world, but I think we all need a strategy to explain why we voted as we did to our children and grandchildren and so on if it doesn't work out. No need to tell us how you would handle it, and believe me I hope as much as you do that this will not come to pass.   But to say you don't need to have thought about it? I disagree. And I am not sure "I feared something worse" will be enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 01:04 PM

I haven't corrected any grammar! What are you on about? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:56 AM

Having made a complete fool of himself he now pulls the schoolmaster act and starts to correct grammar. He has a short memory.
I will refresh it:

"From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 04:20 PM

Having your grammar/spelling/punctuation corrected is very annoying, but the beauty of it is that the person correcting you is invariably guilty of much more of said inelegance than you are"


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM

Incidentally, Nigel, I noticed that when you "quoted" Iains' post in full you closed up his double-spacings between paragraphs. Now I wonder why a man with your attention to piffling detail would do that. Would it by any chance be because you wanted to make it look like the points in the paragraphs weren't quite as separated as they actually were? All in the one paragraph, like?

You've boxed yourself in here, Nigel. You really are better than this. Just move on, old chap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 10:15 AM

You couldn't make me a victim in a million years. You are making yourself a victim by allying yourself to Iains' ridiculous notions, about which you never say anything but, instead, prefer to pick up others on piffling little technicalities (which, in this case, doesn't apply anyway). Now let's have a little looksee at where we are on this. Your mate Iains makes this comment, in a sentence of its own, TWO PARAGRAPHS away from the bit about Normandy beaches:

"The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler."

Did you attend school, Nigel, where they told you that when you start a new paragraph it's because you are starting to make a new, separate point? And Hitler, dear chap, was around big-time from 1933 to 1945. Who are you to extrapolate from that bare little sentence about the precise intended timing of "back then?" He was attempting to "impose his values" all through that period, on his own people, via propaganda on countries he had yet to invade and by repression and aggression on those he had invaded. And one more thing. You incorrectly upbraid me on that point yet have nothing, NOTHING, to say about Iains' bonkers assertion that he fears that the EU is taking us down a path steered by Hitler's values (and that's only one out of many of the daft things he's said in this thread). By your fruits do we know thee, Nigel. You may think it's infra dig to admit that you're in hock with him, and who would blame you for that, but it's as plain as the nose on your face from your postings that you and he are in it together. Get a grip, Nigel, and just behave yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:57 AM

From: Steve Shaw
What a load of utter tosh, Nigel. That is a completely pointless and misdirected nitpick over a point that was perfectly well made. Not once have you berated Iains for any of his brainless and abusive posts, yet you nitpick mine in order to defend him and try to wrongfoot me. Yes you are clearly supporting him. You make a big thing about a tiny technicality (that changes nothing about the substantive issue to hand in any case) that you picked up in my post yet say nothing about the blatant nonsense in his. And your stalking predilection is returning. Get your priorities right and reset your own values, Nigel.


Usual response when shown to be in error, start claiming to be a victim, and insult others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:43 AM

What a load of utter tosh, Nigel. That is a completely pointless and misdirected nitpick over a point that was perfectly well made. Not once have you berated Iains for any of his brainless and abusive posts, yet you nitpick mine in order to defend him and try to wrongfoot me. Yes you are clearly supporting him. You make a big thing about a tiny technicality (that changes nothing about the substantive issue to hand in any case) that you picked up in my post yet say nothing about the blatant nonsense in his. And your stalking predilection is returning. Get your priorities right and reset your own values, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:35 AM

From: Raggytash
I find it rather strange that the Leave supporters on here will gladly discuss anything but the subject matter of the thread.

Talk about Churchill, Hitler, the events of the 1930's and 40's are not relevant to changes happening to 21st Century Europe in the midst of Brexit.

I seem to remember that it was frequent off-topic comments by remainers that encouraged you to start a whole new thread on 'Football'

As for sticking to the subject matter of the thread, we are not yet 'post Brexit' so subject matter will be a little sparse (or based on predictions and suppositions)


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 08:09 AM

I find it rather strange that the Leave supporters on here will gladly discuss anything but the subject matter of the thread.

Talk about Churchill, Hitler, the events of the 1930's and 40's are not relevant to changes happening to 21st Century Europe in the midst of Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:57 AM

Don't be so bloody stupid, Nigel. My comment was not linked to his Normandy beaches point, which came two paragraphs earlier in his post. Before, during and after they were invaded, all those countries had "values" completely at variance with Hitler's. The clear suggestion in his remark was that the only "values" prevailing at the time were Hitler's. Read it again and keep your silly insults to yourself. And consider for a moment exactly who it is you are defending. Read his last two days' posts in this thread for example. Looks like it's about time you reset some of your own values.

Iain's post was:
IRISH PM Leo Varadkar feels sorry for British WW2 veterans over Brexit.
The Dublin chief claimed Tommies who stormed the Normandy beaches on D-Day were doing so 'for European values'.
Christ on a bike... or for supposed historical accuracy perhaps it should be on a donkey!
The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler. Some of us are concerned the un-elected bureaucrats might be toddling off down the road to a similar nightmare.
The lessons of history are never learnt by some, and some apparently cannot learn history especially that varadar character.


The comment about European values 'then' must relate to a particular time, already mentioned in the discussion, so places 'then' as d-day.
So you were responding to a comment about D-Day as if the countries had not yet been attacked.
I'm not being insulting, nor am I supporting Iains. I'm pointing out the total lack of logic in some of the arguments you are presenting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:45 AM

An interesting article in todays Guardian giving a European perspective. I think the most telling paragraph which applies to some on this site is:

"Much like Donald Trump, the Brexiteers have proven themselves immune to information or insight that does not meet their emotional needs. This must be why they continue to hope and insist that in order to avoid this proliferation of new barriers to trade, the EU will relent and allow Britain to have its cake and eat it ? to forget about the obligations of EU membership while continuing to enjoy its many advantages.

This simply will not happen."

The remainder of the article can be found here:
Link


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:39 AM

Don't be so bloody stupid, Nigel. My comment was not linked to his Normandy beaches point, which came two paragraphs earlier in his post. Before, during and after they were invaded, all those countries had "values" completely at variance with Hitler's. The clear suggestion in his remark was that the only "values" prevailing at the time were Hitler's. Read it again and keep your silly insults to yourself. And consider for a moment exactly who it is you are defending. Read his last two days' posts in this thread for example. Looks like it's about time you reset some of your own values.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 07:08 AM

"The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler."

"Back then" the European countries about to be invaded by Hitler, such as Poland, Norway, France, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, etc., all had "values" very different from those of Hitler. They weren't all populated by anarchistic savages with no values, believe it or not. Your remark is vacuous.


Read it a little more carefully.
Iain's statement about Varadkar The Dublin chief claimed Tommies who stormed the Normandy beaches on D-Day were doing so 'for European values'.

At the time of the Normandy invasion those countries were not 'about to be invaded'. They had already been overrun.
perhaps you need to read a little more history rather than suggesting others should!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:49 AM

"The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler."

"Back then" the European countries about to be invaded by Hitler, such as Poland, Norway, France, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, etc., all had "values" very different from those of Hitler. They weren't all populated by anarchistic savages with no values, believe it or not. Your remark is vacuous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

We are making the argument on sane, solid criteria, Nigel, trying to get the blinkers off the millions who were hoodwinked by xenophobic lies and vacuous fiscal promises. Stage One is to get the referendum decision abandoned. Stage Two, if Stage One fails, is out of our hands. And out of yours, as you'll see. Nearly half a billion of them against sixty million of us. They'll survive quite well without our already-weak economy and with large sections of what used to be our services sector shifted to Paris and Berlin. Never mind. Rule Britannia! Narrower and narrower WILL our bounds be set!

The lessons of history, Iains, were what set the European project on its way after WW1 and WW2, the aim being to prevent Hitlerism from ever holding sway in Europe again and to replace it very firmly with international cooperation in trade and free movement and insistence on democracy and the rule of law in every member state. It's worked so far. No third pan-European war and no prospect of one on the horizon. So much for your Hitler allusion, eh? Of course, to learn the lessons of history you have to know some history in the first place. Would you like me to recommend some textbooks to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

So, having campaigned to sail HMS United Kingdom away from the EU without even a chart or a compass, that monumental Shit-For-Brains, Bozo Johnson, is proposing we build a cross-channel Bridge!

WTF? You couldn't make it up!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM

I'd love to know how come Keith and Nigel are not absolutely shitting themselves at the very thought that we are heading for brexit with May, Johnson, Gove and Davis at the helm. I mean, Christ on a bike...

If you must use nautical metaphors, it is very difficult to have four 'at the helm'.
However, better that than remaining in the EU. A stance you continually fail to grasp!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM

We've already had one of those. It's been a long Christmas. Pessimism when you're standing on the crumbling edge of a cliff might just spur you to take some evasive action.
So you criticise my lack of strategy.
What 'evasive action' are you taking? (if you're right that this cliff is crumbling)


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:12 AM

IRISH PM Leo Varadkar feels sorry for British WW2 veterans over Brexit.

The Dublin chief claimed Tommies who stormed the Normandy beaches on D-Day were doing so ?for European values?.

Christ on a bike... or for supposed historical accuracy perhaps it should be on a donkey!

The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler. Some of us are concerned the un-elected bureaucrats might be toddling off down the road to a similar nightmare.

The lessons of history are never learnt by some, and some apparently cannot learn history especially that varadar character.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:54 AM

Has Boris declared that the French will pay?

I'd love to know how come Keith and Nigel are not absolutely shitting themselves at the very thought that we are heading for brexit with May, Johnson, Gove and Davis at the helm. I mean, Christ on a bike...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM

Ah, two little Englanders in a row, neither remembering that both this country and the big world out there have changed radically since we last floated alone as the sick man of Europe.

Nigel, your strategy-less optimism mindset equals complacency. Seeing all the signs and being pessimistic leads to a mindset that is predicated on a sense of urgency. The dicks who are leading our negotiations have yet to see that the EU is not going to give us a favourable, bespoke deal. They are optimistic just like you. And complacent. Oh yes, there will be fudges that will be sold to us as great victories. We've already had one of those. It's been a long Christmas. Pessimism when you're standing on the crumbling edge of a cliff might just spur you to take some evasive action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM

Johnson now talks about wanting to build a bridge to France! A 22 mile bridge across one of the busiest seaways in the world no less. Am I alone in thinking this could be an attempt to divert attention away from the fiasco that is Brexit.


A bridge


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:20 AM

From: Steve Shaw

"Optimism" will get us everywhere, won't it, Nigel?

Would you care to tell us how this "ever closer union" could ever be achieved without this country's willing participation in whatever process you have in mind that would lead to it? What new laws would be passed that we would be helpless to influence? Or veto? It's another of those wish-washy leave thingies, isn't it, a bit like "taking back control" and "the United States of Europe" and "laws imposed on us by unelected Brussels bureaucrats?"

So you're "optimistic." Thing is, DMcG asked you what your strategy is, not how you feel after this morning's cappuccino.


Optimism will often get us further than pessimism.
As for my 'strategy', I have none. I'm not a politician.
Come to that, I don't feel I need a strategy. I am confident that this country is strong enough to survive, and thrive, outside the constraints of the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:19 AM

There is enough practical evidence available now to show that the decision was an utter disaster,

No there is not, and you can not blame Brexit for Trump or the rise of the Far Right in EU.

Many countries, e.g. Japan, Canada, S.Korea, Taiwan, manage without being part pf a political union. They have problems and deal with them as they arise just as we used to.

There is a whole world outside the nursery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

"But if they had won the referendum I am the one who would now be worrying about our future."
As distinct from ignoring and making excuses for the problems that have already arising and are most certain to continue, do you mean Nigel
There is enough practical evidence available now to show that the decision was an utter disaster, not least the fact that the populism used to win Brexit opened the door to Trump and the re-emergence of fascism in Europe
Brexit lad the way
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:55 AM

"Optimism" will get us everywhere, won't it, Nigel?

Would you care to tell us how this "ever closer union" could ever be achieved without this country's willing participation in whatever process you have in mind that would lead to it? What new laws would be passed that we would be helpless to influence? Or veto? It's another of those wish-washy leave thingies, isn't it, a bit like "taking back control" and "the United States of Europe" and "laws imposed on us by unelected Brussels bureaucrats?"

So you're "optimistic." Thing is, DMcG asked you what your strategy is, not how you feel after this morning's cappuccino.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:43 AM

Remainers have, by and large, been worried that things won't work, that cost's will go up, that trade deals can't be struck... In short, being wrong means the UK will have a better future than they fear.

Leavers, on the other hand, assume everything will work out, so any occasion they are wrong means the country is in a worse state.


Leavers do not 'assume everything will work out', but we are at least optimistic that our country will have a good future once we are self-governing once more.

Remainers were previously working on the assumption that staying in the EU would not cause us further problems with further integration toward 'ever closer union'.
Fortunately they will not get the opportunity to see how that would have worked out. But if they had won the referendum I am the one who would now be worrying about our future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 02:32 AM

No problem, DMcG, the unicorns will make everything right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 02:23 AM

When Dominic Grieve said "in my view - I might be wrong" he reminded me of an asymmetry in this whole palaver. He might be wrong, I might be wrong, any one of us might be wrong. We are talking of the future, which is ultimately unknown.

Remainers have, by and large, been worried that things won't work, that cost's will go up, that trade deals can't be struck... In short, being wrong means the UK will have a better future than they fear.

Leavers, on the other hand, assume everything will work out, so any occasion they are wrong means the country is in a worse state.

I would like to hear from Nigel, Iains, Keith and anyone else what their strategy is if things don't go as they hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:06 PM

If Macron's stance prevails, and there is no good reason why it won't, either we stay in the single market or we fall off the cliff. If we stay in the single market the referendum was a farce - we will still enjoy free movement of people, the termination of which was the main tenet of the leave campaign. If we don't, we're doomed. Not even the little Englanders will be able to save us from floating, miserable and friendless, into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 05:47 PM

It is interesting to compare Macron's stance with what Dominic Greive said on Tuesday in the early stages of the Withdrawal Bill 2nd reading:


"Another factor influenced my decision not to table another amendment and divide the House on this matter. Realistically, although I realise that some may not like this, in leaving the European Union, we are about to embark on a lengthy period of transitional arrangements during which, in my view - I might be wrong - every jot and tittle of EU law will continue to apply to this country in every conceivable respect, except that we will no longer share in its making in the institutions of the European Union. I am afraid that I think that is where we are going; the alternative, of course, is that we are jumping off the cliff."


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 05:41 PM

Macron has simply laid on the line that we can't be in the single market unless we allow free movement and adhere to all EU trading laws and standards. Much the same would apply even if we simply had access. Even if we agreed to either, we would no longer have any influence over changes to laws and regulations. There can be no special consideration for our services sector either, which just happens to be four-fifths of our economy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 05:25 PM

Not only did you link to two right-wing sources, they had absolutely nothing to do with the point that you were allegedly refuting in that post. In case you didn't quite catch it, Iains, here it is in very simple words: the EU does NOT impose laws on member countries via edicts from unelected bureaucrats in Brussels or anywhere else. All laws are discussed and ratified, or not, by elected representatives of member states. In those discussions, the bigger your country, the bigger your influence, and, in that regard, the UK is in the top three countries. Not one of your rude interventions today has addressed that very simple point. Yet you call someone else a troll. You give every indication that your understanding of the issues surrounding brexit is superficial and third-hand.

Please desist from responding with even more abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 04:08 PM

Out of order Iains, Backwoodsman gave a coherent argument, Trolls are people who just snipe and run away, a bit like your comment in fact.

French president Emmanuel Macron has understandably said today that the UK will get no special deal unless we play ball with the EU.


Macron


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