BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:45 AM

I have no way of knowing, Don. I guess it's difficult to change people who, since birth, have been psychologically-modified to genuinely believe that they're safer with guns, and that everybody has the right to own as many as they wish. It's so deeply-ingrained in their collective psyche, they cannot begin to conceive of countries which are relatively gun-free, with very few gun-killings, and where people feel safe.

Sad. Very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:34 AM

Never miss a chance to lampoon stoopid American gun-nuts...

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:32 AM

So how many former 'No votes to reasonable laws for guns have changed to Yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:15 AM

A perceptive commentary...

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:01 AM

An interesting piece from the days when the US had an intelligent human being for President, instead of a ginger, combed-over, pussy-grabbing wazzock...

https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/1724338700992510/

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:34 AM

As I've just pointed out on another forum, laws of themselves are useless. They are just words on paper. It's the enforcement of laws that produces results. Firearms laws in the UK are firmly enforced, and there are severe penalties for misuse of firearms, whether legally-held or otherwise.

When mass-shootings took place here, the government took strong action. The prudence of those actions is borne out by the fact that there has not been a mass-shooting incident here since 1996 - twenty-one years.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:31 AM

It is all very well introducing new laws but criminals do have a reputation for ignoring them. Legislation that can successfully combat this glaring anomaly would be most welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 05:02 PM

Beardedbruce. I have disputed your statistics. You answered by making some point about murder and homicide being different. Try asking the grieving relatives of the dead if they think it makes a difference.

But that is far from the point anyway. Even if your statistics were right all they go to prove is that the more guns there are, the more deaths there are. Which is what most people are trying to say. Restricting the availability of guns restricts the possibility of them being used in the way we are talking about.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:37 PM

Stop being disingenuous, you're fooling no-one. Your 'deaths per gun' is completely meaningless unless no person owns more than one gun. Especially true if, as I suspect, you're a proponent of the NRA mantra that 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'. My personal take on that piece of bullshit is that 'people with guns kill people'.

The statistic that actually is relevant is the relative number of gun-deaths per year, pro-rated by population-size.

And a gun-death is a gun-death, irrespective of who the victim is. You might be interested to know that there have been a total of 68 fatal police shootings in the past 27 years in the UK - an average of less than 3 per year. How does that stack up against US numbers?

Source - http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/fatal-police-shootings

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:09 PM

"On June 7, 2010 -- about a year and a half into the Barack Obama administration -- the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives issued an opinion letter, giving the go-ahead to an after-market accessory that allows the user to “bump fire” a semi-automatic rifle.

A company called Slide Fire had earlier sent its patented replacement shoulder stock to ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch, asking for an evaluation of the device.

The ATF, in reply, wrote: “Your letter advises that the stock (referenced in this reply as a ‘bump stock’) is intended to assist persons whose hands have limited mobility to ‘bump fire’ an AR-15 type rifle.”

The device replaces the factory stock and grip. The replacement stock moves back and forth with the gun's recoil, allowing it to fire rapidly and continuously as the trigger repeatedly is bumped into the shooter’s finger. A switch allows the user to select semi-automatic fire (one shot for each trigger pull) or the more rapid “bump fire.”

According to the ATF’s June 2010 letter: “The stock has no automatically functioning mechanical parts or springs and performs no automatic mechanical function when installed. In order to use the device, the shooter must apply constant forward pressure with the non-shooting hands and constant rearward pressure with the shooting hand. Accordingly, we find that the ‘bump stock’ is a firearm part and is not regulated as a firearm under the Gun Control Act or the National Firearms Act.”

Slide Fire has posted a copy of the approval letter on its website.

The company also notes, “By definition, our current rifle stocks are not adjustable stocks or trigger manipulation devices.”

An ATF agent told CBS News that the Las Vegas shooter had equipped 12 of the rifles found in his hotel room with bump stocks.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said on Tuesday that she intends to introduce legislation to close what she calls the “automatic weapon loophole,” and some Republicans have indicated they may be open to the idea of banning after-market devices that allow semi-automatic weapons to simulate automatic fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:58 PM

Backwoodsman,

your 12,000 includes criminals killed in the act of committing crimes- I stated the difference between homicides and murders.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:55 PM

Backwoodsman

0.000016 vs less than 0.000017 killed per gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:55 PM

In the incidents I mention above, the victims of the first were residents of Hungerford going about their daily business, the victims of the second were children in primary school. All innocents, I'd say.

I'm for laws preventing all murders. Murder is murder no matter who the victim is - the law makes no judgment of the victims' moral status.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:54 PM

more questions...wouldn't you think in an era of terrorism, mass shootings, etc. there would be cameras all over the venue area, pointed everywhere? Wouldn't there be men/women with binoculars stationed here and there? Are there ways of shortening response time? Are there ways to tell people to flee the site without causing stampedes? Are there ways to tell people in a hotel to either flee or shelter in place, depending on their location? What preparations do we know of in terms of hotel and venue and what were the reactions?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:49 PM

12,000/(70*6)

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:48 PM

I am for laws preventing murders of innocents.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:46 PM

"please make it known to all of us if you support any reasonable law or action to diminish mass shooting attacks.
just yes or no is fine"

The government here in the UK has done precisely that on several occasions. We had two mass-shootings, the first time, in August 1987, using assault-type weapons, the second, in March 1996, using hand-guns. Our government rapidly took strong action, placing very close restrictions on the ownership of those types of weapons, and there have been no further such incidents.

In view of the above, and on the absolutely undeniable evidence that the average rate of deaths by gunshot based on population in the US exceeds the average rate by population in the UK by a factor of 28 (12,000/70*6 per annum), I vote "Yes".

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:42 PM

i am for laws preventing mass shootings.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:37 PM

BEFORE I agree that additional laws are needed, please tell me how they will actually produce the desired effect.


Or should I look at the previous attempts when laws WERE passed to STOP GUN VIOLENCE?

"For the first weekend of October, the Chicago Tribune reported, “At least 32 people were shot over the weekend, including a man killed along the Chicago River on the Northwest Side and a 13-year-old boy wounded while riding his bike in Little Village on the West Side, according to police. Between Friday afternoon and early Monday, at least four people were killed and 28 others wounded, police said.”

The prior weekend in the Windy City brought a grim milestone of 500 homicides, so far, for 2017.

For some reason, Mrs. Clinton and the other liberals and Hollywood celebrities tweeting their outrage and demands for gun control have been silent about the massacres in Chicago. Perhaps because they were successful there and “gun control” was achieved. Now that it failed, they would have to confront issues like gangs, MS-13 and drugs. Confronted with the fraud of the liberal solution of gun control, the only answer is to not look, move on and abandon the victims."

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:29 PM

BillD,
"it is pretty difficult for the average nut to cause mass casualties with stuff from a high-school chem lab."

I beg to differ- but will refrain from specifying the exact chemicals used.

Nitroglycerin
phosgene
mustard gas
chlorine gas

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:28 PM

please make it known to all of us if you support any reasonable law or action to diminish mass shooting attacks.
just yes or no is fine



no one has answered, let me be the first

yes

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:20 PM

Olddude,

And the modification is illegal- so what use are MORE LAWS? ONLY a law-abiding person would NOT do something because it is illegal- and a person who commits murder is NOT a law-abiding person.




BillD,

If the founding fathers had known of amplifiers, radio, television, and the internet. the FIRST amendment would have been different as well. Where is YOUR flatbed , hand powered press? Where is your speaker's stand with NO microphone? And the idea of an audience greater than within physical hearing distance?...

Any modification due to technology either requires amendment OR must apply to ALL of the amendments. Would you state that the fourth amendment would NOT prohibit x-rays or MRI without consent, since that technology did not exist at the time?

Either "the right of the people " applies to all the items it is included in ( freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom to possess weapons, etc) or it is not valid for any.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:54 PM

Bruce my point is it can be easily converted.. You are technically correct but once modified so am I

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM

"..Gasoline is another high explosive compound. Fuel oil and fertilizer,and a number of household chemicals as well. Then there are the home-made chemical weapons that any high school student could make. I guess we need to control access to all of these things, since they present a danger in the hands of the mentally unstable. "

False equivalency!!! As is throwing cars, hammers, knives and bug spray into that ridiculous line of non-reason.

ALL those items have many normal uses beyond 'possible' crazy ones. Guns have a very limited set of uses.... and the valid ones do NOT require high capacity magazines and rapid fire, except for police & military uses. Yet we allow many restrictions and registrations on auto registration and driving ...and even fertilizer is being restricted... and it is pretty difficult for the average nut to cause mass casualties with stuff from a high-school chem lab.

   I am so tired of the convoluted logic being used to defend a vaguely phrased 2nd amendment which was written when single-shot muzzle loaders were the standard and the need for a "well-maintained militia" meant something VERY different. If you had shown the founding fathers an AK-47, they would have rephrased that amendment VERY carefully!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:29 PM

Olddude,

It is not an assault rifle. That would require it to be selective fire ( capable of full automatic)

An assault rifle is a selective-fire rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine.[1][2][3][4][5] Assault rifles were first used during World War II.[6][7][8] Though Western nations were slow to accept the assault rifle concept, by the end of the 20th century they had become the standard weapon in most of the world's armies, replacing full-powered rifles and sub-machine guns in most roles.[8] Examples include the StG 44, AK-47 and the M16 rifle.[8]

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:24 PM

Kampervan,

"Punt guns were used in the 19th century to hunt waterfowl. It's still possible to pick them up second hand."

Used to be used here on the Chesapeake Bay- they are illegal here now, and considered WMD ( anything over a specified diameter. ) I think the 26mm flare pistols are about the largest diameter legal firearms. Some muzzle-loading cannon are available, but require licensing.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:18 PM

Want an assault rifle that is of no use except for people, 300 bucks on the net... Fucking nuts

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:13 PM

No more dumb ass laws that accomplish nothing, fix it loopholes and repair the broken ones that do no good for anyone including us sportsmen

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:10 PM

Bill, doesn't cost 50 bucks, give me ten minutes on a lathe... Insane shit for sure

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:03 PM

"
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste," Rahm Emanuel, then a congressman, said shortly after the 2008 election. "What I mean by that is that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."

So it is with gun control. Every slaughter is an opening to capitalize on grief and hope the public gives government license to do what it previously rejected.

Of course, not all slaughters are exploited equally. Chicago, where Emanuel is now mayor, is on a historic killing spree, with more than 500 murders already this year.

Chicago has an ongoing mass murder problem, even as it has among the nation's strictest gun control laws, to little effect. Yet the Democratic media rarely mention the slaughter there or in Baltimore or Detroit, all of which take place under Democratic mayors with very restrictive gun laws.

Murder carried out daily by illegal handguns, and involving mostly the death of black males living under liberal mayors, doesn't motivate the national media. Could it be that there is no political advantage to be had, and thus no business interest in the carnage?"

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:59 PM

The UK is fast to respond with new public safety prohibition laws.

The latest proposal is to ban sales of sulphuric acid to under 18s...

USA libertarians may consider the UK to be an intolerable draconian state,
but we are used to it, and just get on with our lives....

What is interesting, is that whenever occasional police amnesties are announced for handing in knives and illegal firearms,
surprisingly there seems to be a very positive response
and the resulting voluntarily handed in stashes of weapons are prominently displayed on TV news as they are stacked up for destruction...

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:46 PM

And unless we get rid of propane, LNG , and natural gas, there will always be the risk of FAE bombs.

Gasoline is another high explosive compound. Fuel oil and fertilizer,and a number of household chemicals as well. Then there are the home-made chemical weapons that any high school student could make. I guess we need to control access to all of these things, since they present a danger in the hands of the mentally unstable.

Or we could try to raise a population that does not consider mass murder
as a reasonable way to resolve differences.

Naw, let em just riot and tear down what they don't like, and beat up those who have views they disagree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:36 PM

...even before this latest devastating massacre..
I've been up late at night idly watching youtube compilations on "gun fails"...

.. and these are only the sanitized videos where the fukwits actually survived...


Scary to consider the 'stars' of these videos may mostly be legal gun owners...

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:27 PM

About laws:

Owning fully automatic weapons is 'mostly' illegal,as is converting a semi to an auto....

But the $50 kit to DO the conversion IS legal... as are the "bump stocks" he used which allow 'almost' automatic fire by using the gun's own recoil to fire faster than anyone can actually pull the trigger.

So...any ideas where **laws** that don't actually ban guns could be applied? (we all know that banning or confiscating guns would be essentially impossible as things stand)

The Republicans were about to introduce legislation to allow certain types of special ammo designed to penetrate armor.... any ideas about that? (they are now 'waiting' on that and a couple other more 'liberal', NRA approved, laws.

   Do the math.... more population means more stresses in society and more mental instability. With guns legally available to almost everyone until their instability surfaces in ways which make headlines, the total number of dangerous, unstable people with guns WILL rise. Add to that recruits to terrorism, anti-abortion radicals and just plain, 'normal' people who "feel the need for protection" but have limited skills..... any ideas how that might affect a few sad statistics in the future?

I am no expert on weaponry, but I can read, reason and do math. I don't like what I see coming.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:27 PM

"please make it known to all of us if you support any reasonable law or action to diminish mass shooting attacks"

1. Show me the law and tell me how it reduces the risk of mass shootings.

"just yes or no is fine"

Not reasonable- "Have you stopped beating your wife- yes or no?"

I would support new laws IF I have reason to think that

1. They would be enforced fairly.

2. They would be effective in doing what they are put in place to do.

3. They would inflict less damage than the actions they are trying to prevent.
Obviously, a government search and seizure from ALL homes, places of business, and private property of ALL firearms and ammunition would reduce the chance of mass shootings- but the riots that would occur might well kill a lot more than the shootings.
But then, if we can't keep 11 million illegal aliens from entering the country, how can we keep out the ( then illegal) firearms? We need a bigger wall, to prevent re-arming of those who desire guns ( present criminals and the new criminals that would resist the confiscation.)

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:23 PM

By the way, could can't make one, it's illegal but if it is factory unaltered it is a firearm and not a shotgun.. Insane shit, see why we bitch about more laws

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:18 PM

Here is another good example. A sawed off short barrel show gun is illegal without a special license that is difficult and expensive toget. HHowever, you can buy one directly from a gun company absolutely legal with no special license if it has a pistol grip and no shoulder stock.. Why, because the law says to be a shotgun it has to have a shoulder fired stock. How do I know, I own one. Great for walking through the brush in grizzly bear country but a bad guy would use it for other things.. Crazy see what I mean

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:16 PM

Never be to quick to write off disorganized rabble.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:07 PM

Punky we do have no shortage of crazy also for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:04 PM

I've watched too many American movies and satellite TV documentaries on Preppers and near future USA civil wars...

...not forgetting military led coups backed by local militias... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:01 PM

And, while I was typing, Backwoodsman beat me to the point very effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:58 PM

Further snowflakey/libtard reflections...

"Arms", by definition, is not limited to hand held firearms; the dictionary includes "ordinance" and "artillery". Why aren't there more real patriots out there with the guts to insist on their rights to the GOOD stuff ?
If the point of the second amendment is to protect the individual against his government, it isn't worth the...powder to blow it up with ?... unless there are, at the very least, collectives of like-minded civilians who possess levels of weaponry comparable to what the government can bring to bear.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:56 PM

Gotta keep trying though, PFR!

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:50 PM

my simple take on this...

reasonable American gun owners will be prepared to accept fair pragmatic compromises...

Unreasonable American gun owners will be prepared to go down in a blaze of glory in stand-off battles with law enforcement officers...

Any new much needed laws and restrictions will be near impossible to implement and enforce.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:45 PM

The BS about the population being armed in order to fight the government is an absolute bag of bollocks. I'd just love to see all those gun-nut, redneck crackpots' faces when the tanks, F-16s, F-22s, attack helicopters, and drones start setting their fat, sweaty arses on fire. Anyone who believes that a disorganised rabble, consisting of 'hunters' and wannabe-Rambos, could mount any sort of meaningful challenge to the Armed Forces of the US really is deluded to the point of insanity, and should never be allowed within ten miles of a fire-arm.

The 2nd Amendment, in today's terms, is therefore meaningless and redundant, and should be removed from the constitution (or amended in such a way as to make it clear that being allowed to possess firearms is a privilege, not a right and, like all privileges, it cannot be demanded! it must be earned.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM

Gun supporters;

please make it known to all of us if you support any reasonable law or action to diminish mass shooting attacks.
just yes or no is fine

There is a tide coming in from many gun supporters that is carrying some reasonable change agreement. Is there a crack of sunshine behind the door of never change a thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM

You mean like in the present case, with 23 weapons used?

Isn't that the topic of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:16 PM

Contrasting deaths by country per-gun-owned might begin to make sense
if and when it becomes probable that a mass killer who owns 18 or 118 guns will use each one of those guns in a killing incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:11 PM

Oh ours also has to be in double locked cases

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:09 PM

Ours just have to be unloaded, no ammo, that has to be separate and inspected by Tsa.
I really liked alaska having to show your id and baggage claims tag to get them. Why in the world some airports toss them on the baggage conveyor is crazy to me. I like your idea of pulling all the bolts, I will do that also from now on great idea