BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:42 AM

Olddude in travelling to and from our hunting area the guns have to be in a locked/secure case (Two different locks, two different keys), the bolt must be removed from the rifle and carried separately, the same applies to any ammunition. As we travel as a group the from one person's rifle goes in someone else in the groups check-in luggage so should anyone read the tag on the rifle case, and then pilfer the check-in luggage of the same person - the rifle is still useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:36 AM

In general, the more Liberal a state is, the more strict the gun laws- and the less consistent the enforcement.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:32 AM

NY has the toughest gun control laws in the nation and they throw my weapons on a public baggage claim... Thank god no one took them. Alaska has no gun control and they took great care with them... It's all nuts

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:25 AM

When I was hunting in alaska, I checked my rifle and handgun at the Tsa as required, they make sure it's uploaded, slap a firearms tag on it, off to alaska. In alaska, show them my id get my guns. When I came back home, my airport tossed them on the baggage conveyor belt with all the other luggage so anyone could have stolen them while I was taking a piss in the restroom. I climbed all over Tsa ass about it and they said well its up to each airport how to handle it... Fucking nuts stuff like this negates all gun laws

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:22 AM

"Paris, where 130 individuals were gunned down in 2015, has some of the world's most stringent firearms restrictions. So does Chicago, where 519 persons have been murdered already this year.

The humane response to the tragedy visited upon Las Vegas is not legislation but consolation, for both victims and survivors. Politicians are unable to stop mass murder because the black heart responsible for the finger that pulls the trigger occupies a dark place beyond the reach of reason. If law alone could govern the actions of mankind, a law comprised of only four short words would have been enough: "Thou shalt not kill.""

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:10 AM

Actually bruces stats have merit, however we need to get rid of the gun show loophole, assault weapons don't really have a place for sportsmen or hunting. To easy to convert. Now america is a big place. If you grew up in the mountains like I did that deer meat was important for food. Many places especially alaska is the same way. They depend on hunting. We have some really good gun laws but loopholes that negate many of them. Let's fix that. You could put many European countries inside one of our local counties. It's addifferent nation. Fix the loopholes but new laws won't work until it's addressed

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:58 AM

Dave,

Homicide is not murder- I used murder as that is what the UK figures are based on.

If a policeman kills someone legally, that is NOT a murder


You have not shown the figures I gave ( 2012, by the way- back in Obama's enlightened administration) are incorrect. If they went up the next year, ( still under Obama) maybe that indicates that the Liberals have a weak grasp on effective law enforcement.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:53 AM

Stu,

All those carefully checked UK gun owners commit JUST AS MANY MURDERS PER GUN as the gun owners in the US.

The flaw is in the people , not the tool.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:47 AM

The numbers show that the UK has NO SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER rate of murders per gun than the US has.

I have just shown that it is substantially better in the UK. The figures you provided previously were wrong. You are flogging a dead horse here. Probably shooting it with a semi automatic...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:47 AM

In the WashPo. One of the more pro-gun control media- they stated that the only purpose for the Glock was for criminals ( just check to see what most police are carrying now).



-------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.

By Leah Libresco

October 3, 2017 at 3:02 PM


"Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense gun-control reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.

Then, my colleagues and I at FiveThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way. We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I'd lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence. The best ideas left standing were narrowly tailored interventions to protect subtypes of potential victims, not broad attempts to limit the lethality of guns.

.........

By the time we published our project, I didn't believe in many of the interventions I'd heard politicians tout. I was still anti-gun, at least from the point of view of most gun owners, and I don't want a gun in my home, as I think the risk outweighs the benefits. But I can't endorse policies whose only selling point is that gun owners hate them. Policies that often seem as if they were drafted by people who have encountered guns only as a figure in a briefing book or an image on the news."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/opinions/i-used-to-think-gun-control-was-the-answer-my-research-told-me-otherwise/2017/10

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:33 AM

"they are all to often in the hands of people that should not have them."

The numbers show that the UK has NO SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER rate of murders per gun than the US has. Yes, we have more guns, but you have as many murders PER GUN as wee do- AFTER ALL YOUR vetting of owners.



"If we are to remain a nation where the right to bear arms is constitutionally protected, we're going to have to live with the possibility, maybe even the probability, that legally-obtained weapons will sometimes be used for a bad purpose by insane or evil people. If we want to be a country where gun violence is reduced drastically, then we will also have to be one where ownership of legal weapons is restricted to a privileged few rather than a right all citizens enjoy.

Those who support the Second Amendment must be honest about the price of the liberty they cherish. But those who wish to deprive us of that right must also be honest about what they want. The Second Amendment exists because the Founders believed giving the monopoly on firearms to the state was a prescription for tyranny. Is that a risk most of us wish to run?

Many Americans do wish to relegate the Second Amendment to the trash heap of history. Perhaps many would like to trade some of their liberty for fewer worries about gun violence. But if liberals want to talk about gun control, rather than more disingenuous nonsense about background checks, that's the argument they should be forced to make.

Anything short of that is a waste of our time. Until the left directly addresses their desire to change the Constitution and end gun rights altogether, their rhetoric about gun violence should be ignored."

http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/04/gun-control-debate-pointless-liberals-admit-want-repeal-second-amendment/

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:12 AM

No point missed at all. The figures quoted are wrong. Directly from This article.

Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5] 21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

So, the quoted figure of 5100 is well under the number of murders and massively under the total number of deaths. 11,000 by homicide alone. Almost another thousand due to accidents and undetermined causes. So your less than 0.000017 murders per gun is a massive under representation and if we put in the true figures - IE 12000 deaths / number of guns you have double that of the UK. I would also cast doubts on the number of guns given in both cases as well. The number of illegal, non-registered guns have not been been taken into account.

This does not account for the number of injuries either. I would postulate that the number of injuries due to firearms is going to be massively higher by proportion in the US than the UK.

As Stu has already explained, there are just too many guns and they are all to often in the hands of people that should not have them.

Scary fact for you here.

For every 100 people in the UK there are less than 7 guns. In the USA that is 112 guns per 100 people.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:44 AM

"So obviously all that careful vetting of gun owners has no effect."

This crap annoys the living bejesus out of me because it's another sleight of hand and is dishonest, which is a huge part of the problem. Contemptible.

From here: How many people are killed by guns a year in Great Britain?


Last year there were 51 gun homicides in the UK.
The population is 62M about 1/5th that of the US.

So if the US had the same level of gun crime, that would give an annual death toll of 254.

You've got too many guns and that is why your country is killing innocents by the hundreds yearly.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:39 AM

Present (EXISTING) US policies have produced less than 0.000017 murders per gun.

Present UK policies have produced 0.000016 murders per gun.




In the US:

ONLY confiscation ( ie, removal of the 2nd amendment) would reduce the number of guns, but only from legal owners, those LEAST likely to commit murder.

This would INCREASE the number of murders PER GUN.

The problem is NOT that we have too many guns, but that we have too many criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:29 AM

Dave the Gnome,

You have missed the point.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
from Iain's clicky:
" Scotland has about 75,000 licensed firearms and shotguns. England and Wales even more, with about 1.8 million in circulation. And these guns have impact."

so, UK 1,875.000 firearms, 30 homicides by guns 0.000016 killed per gun
USA 300,000,000+ firearms 5100 homicides by guns <0.000017 killed per gun

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The number of people murdered PER GUN in the UK is not much different from the number per gun murdered in the US.


from Backwoodsman:"Here in the UK, as Acorn says, gun-licensing is very strictly controlled, and the use to which a gun can be put is very limited. So there are comparatively few guns held by civilians, compared to the US."


Yet there are just about as many murders PER GUN in the UK as in the USA- So obviously all that careful vetting of gun owners has no effect.

" It is the legislation that allows free access to firearms to anyone and therefore to more nutcases."

The PRESENT UK legislation allows the SAME PERCENTAGE of nutcases ( out of all allowed gun owners) to get the guns- They restrict ALL access to firearms, but do NOT reduce the murders PER GUN.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:20 AM

Dave to argue against NRA jargon is no more rational than the NRA jargon itself which is irrational. Repeating the senseless NRA jargon is just a repeated hypnosis phrase pure and simple. It needn't make sense, it only needs to be parroted and repeated.

You would think arguing sense to the senseless would create a correction in thought but it doesn't work that way.
no pun intended but you have to fight fire with fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM

Thanks to all the UK folks who are willing to inform us of alternatives.

There are people listening.


btw
What you don't know is the Trump overload we are suffering over here. You know nothing about the constancy, the intensity the overarching omnipresence. It is toxic it builds up it has to be expelled from the system. So stop saying shut up about it. That is unhealthy for all of us over here. You can ignore it, shut your eyes, we can't as long as we are awake.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:48 AM

BeardedBruce

So, the people in the UK are not so different- they just have less access to guns

That is the whole point surely. Less guns = less murders. It is not people that are in the wrong. It is the legislation that allows free access to firearms to anyone and therefore to more nutcases.

As to so they move to other means to kill people. Well, I'm not sure where to start with that one. Firstly, the gun has been the preferred tool of death since its introduction. Secondly, the gun is more likely to cause death than any of these 'other means' you allude to. Finally, rate of intentional homicide, by any method, is still many times higher in the USA than it is in the UK. The only difference I can see that accounts for such disparity is the gun culture.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:30 AM

DavetheGnome,

I posted earlier:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
from Iain's clicky:
" Scotland has about 75,000 licensed firearms and shotguns. England and Wales even more, with about 1.8 million in circulation. And these guns have impact."

so, UK 1,875.000 firearms, 30 homicides by guns 0.000016 killed per gun
USA 300,000,000+ firearms 5100 homicides by guns <0.000017 killed per gun

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The number of people murdered PER GUN in the UK is not much different from the number per gun murdered in the US.

So, the people in the UK are not so different- they just have less access to guns, so they move to other means to kill people.

Here in the US, the preferred means of suicide, when guns are not available, seems to be deliberate car accidents: A lot more dangerous to the rest of society. How many innocents are killed on the road each year?




Backwoodsman,

You state:"Here in the UK, as Acorn says, gun-licensing is very strictly controlled, and the use to which a gun can be put is very limited. So there are comparatively few guns held by civilians, compared to the US."

Yet there are just about as many murders PER GUN in the UK as in the USA- So obviously all that careful vetting of gun owners has no effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:50 AM

Legislation needs to be passed Heroes are needed from the gun cultire and the urbanite.

If you knew you were sick you could do some things to get better.

If you knew you were lied to you could learn the truth.

If you knew you were brainwashed you would be a little less brainwashed

Re read some posts and see who is sick and doesn't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:43 AM

shouldn't governments have control?
isn't that a funtion of government?
if you are governed, you are controlled

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:16 AM

"Taking away guns gives control to governments"

So much to unravel in this statement. It's an admission that democracy is a sham and force of arms and the violent imposition of an aggressor's will is the only way for society to function. Except society won't function under these conditions, as everyone disagrees to some level about HOW a society should function and if the only way to resolve these conflicts is with force means society has collapsed... there will be no rule of law, just individuals acting according to their own will.

It's one thing defending a democracy with force of arms, another threatening it from within because you don't like the way it's going. A democracy operates on consensus and a society agrees to give a government control for the common good and is changed via a vote. Of course this doesn't always work, but the idea that a civilised society cannot organise itself to look after its own citizens is an insidious one, especially in an established democracy such as the US.

This viewpoint is so utterly bleak and I wonder how many actually share it in the US? A degree of this belligerence is demonstrated by Trump and it's why the US is no longer seen as leader of the free world outside it's borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:02 AM

its not just a culture myth. though is it? Have you seen the Crime and Investigation channel.....quite frequently the bad guy is coming for them.

of course there are the stars of the homicidal galaxy...Bundy,   Mark Chapman...but who the fuck is ready for the Fartsville Monster, from Bollocks County, Mississippi ( quiet little place, a great town to bring kids up in)....92 victims so far, time to call in behavioural scientists to tell you that they haven't got a clue?

you can buy two bungalows with swimming pools and four bedrooms in Florida for the price of my humble abode...but who would bloody want one?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM

That is all true, BWM but where and how did the 'split' occur? Presumably sometime in the past something happened in the US to establish this gun culture that not only did not happen in the UK but did not seem to happen in any other civilized country. As you quite rightly say it is not the fault of the average person. All the Americans I have met both here and in the States are ordinary, decent folk who I am sure would support any move to make their country a safer place. Why can the leaders not start to wean people off a culture that kills thousands?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:52 AM

There's more than a single factor in play Dave. You're point about comparative gun-deaths is correct, I've made the exact same point myself.

But the huge difference between the UK and the US isn't just that we have far more stringent, and firmly applied gun-laws, it's about mindset. From the moment they're born, Americans have it rammed into their brains that the 'Mad-Dog Killers' and the 'Bad Guys' are coming for them, and that they need guns to protect themselves. Add that to their lax gun-laws and the easy availability of firearms, and you get what they've got.

Here in the UK, as Acorn says, gun-licensing is very strictly controlled, and the use to which a gun can be put is very limited. So there are comparatively few guns held by civilians, compared to the US.

And the mindset of having a gun to protect ourselves against 'The Bad Guys' coming into our homes to steal our laptops and Blu-Ray players isn't there because, over here, the 'Bad Guys' know the chances of being faced by a terrified householder waving a gun at them are virtually nil, and that our police don't carry guns. Therefore, the 'Bad Guys' themselves don't go armed - they don't need to! Add to that the fact that carrying any kind of weapon in the commission of a crime carries an automatic doubling of the sentence for the crime, and you have a very good deterrent.

Americans 'need' guns because many (most?) people have guns. They're brainwashed by the culture of guns. They are made fearful by their own culture, and by the propaganda of the NRA and its cohorts and adherents. There's a lot of money in guns, and that's how the NRA like it.

It's not the fault of the average American - he/she doesn't know any better, and they can't even begin to conceive of a place where ordinary decent people neither want, nor 'need' guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:55 AM

you can't superimpose your values on America

But I am doing no such thing, Al. I have just asked people to look at the number of gun related deaths in the USA vs the UK and ask themselves why there is such a huge difference. I have no wish to impose anything on anyone and just want those supporting the US gun culture to work out for themselves why these tragedies happen for more frequently in the US than they do in the UK.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:26 AM

I couldn't believe it when I first heard it, but then I moved into a very conservative area and found it to be true. The extremists in the NRA have a frightening interpretation of the Second Amendment. The amendment says this:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

They interpret this as meaning that the Constitution gives them the sacred right to arm themselves to protect themselves against the Government, should the Government get out of hand.
People in my area really believe this, and it really frightens me. I'd prefer to use the ballot box to protect myself from the government getting out of hand. I have no idea how to protect myself from self-righteous vigilantes with guns.
-Joe-

P.S. Backwoodsman linked to a very good article - (click)

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:45 AM

Wise words here...

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Kampervan
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:14 AM

Just for the record, the ownership of rifles, as well as shotguns, is still perfectly legal in the UK. it's just that we have very tight control over who can own them and how they're stored.

The UK banned handguns in 1997, but citizens are still able to own and shoot some shotguns and rifles with a license.
Shotguns and rifles may be licensed by applying for a certificate through the local police force, according to the government's guide on gun-licensing law.
The local authority will carry out a series of checks — including interviews, criminal-records checks, and a visit to the person's property — before granting permission.
For firearms other than a shotgun, applicants must give police a "good reason" for wanting to own one. Hunting or being a member of a shooting club, for example, might be seen as good reasons. Self-defence won't be considered a valid reason.
Semiautomatic firearms — guns that will keep firing one round every time you pull the trigger — are legal as long as the size of the cartridge they are designed to fire are no bigger than .22 inches in diameter.
Shotguns are legal at long as they can't hold more than three shotgun shells – including the one in the chamber if it's a pump-action or semiautomatic shotgun. There's no such restriction for rifles.
Now take a look at some of guns that you can buy.
Most people think that you can only own shotguns where the shells are loaded by hand (popular in clay shooting, for example), but you can actually own and use semiautomatic shotguns, such as a Benelli M4.

The Ruger 10/22 is one of the most popular rifles for new shooters in the UK. It's a semiautomatic rifle that has been in production since 1964.
Remington says that their model Model 700 bolt-action rifle is the most popular sporting rifle ever made, with over 5 million sold. It's popular with police forces all over the world.

The Beretta ARX 160 is a military assault rifle used by the Italian army. The a semiautomatic version chambered in .22 LR can be used in the UK.
There are quite a few semiautomatic .22 LR versions of military rifles that you can buy in the UK, including the Heckler & Koch MP5 and this Heckler & Koch HK416, a version of the AR15 rifle that is used by special forces around the world ...
... and you can now even something very close to an AR-15 made by Smith and Wesson. It's called the M & P 15-22 and is based on the real AR15, which is itself the basis for the rifles used by many militaries around the world.
You can even get an UZI in .22LR.
Here's the hugely powerful Steyr HS 50 Cal. If you've got £5,000 and access to a shooting range big enough, you can have one in the UK.
You can only use it at limited number of specialist shooting ranges.
You can even own the British-made Accuracy International sniper rifle. It holds the record for the longest confirmed sniper kill in history and is yours for £23,000.
It's also possible to get some guns that look like handguns, but are actually legal because they've been specially lengthened to get around the restrictions on short-barreled guns. The GSG 1911 long-barrel pistol has a lengthened barrel and a fixed "counterweight rod" at the back which means it gets around the handgun ban.

The same goes for the Taurus LBR revolver, which has a 12-inch barrel and a permanently fixed "wrist support."
You can own the pump-action Mossberg 500 too — just as long as it can only hold no more than two cartridges plus one in the chamber.
Punt guns were used in the 19th century to hunt waterfowl. It's still possible to pick them up second hand.
And finally, you can get a custom rifle made for you by the British gun-maker Holland and Holland – like the one below that is chambered in .700 Nitro Express. The gun will cost you a couple hundred-thousand pounds and each round will set you back about £100.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:12 PM

So far everything about the weapons are 100% LEGAL so what?
I'll tell you, its easy as hell to get them and legally modify them with a part that costs 49.99 in the US.

Who else wants to avoid the issue because its too soon to talk about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:54 PM

how will you know which women are white supremacists and nra types?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:23 PM

Leeneia, be careful. It would be a harsh world that treated people as apparently sane as the LV perp was as though they were about to commit atrocities.

As I've said here before, I'm ok with Americans slaughtering each other. I'd just prefer the victims to be, say, white supremacists and NRA types rather than women, kids and the disadvantaged.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:00 PM

its their choice Dave. It a foreign country - they do things differently there. the similarities are superficial.

you can't superimpose your values on America - any more than the Americans could convince Iraq and Afghanistan to change just by invading them.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:58 PM

My favorite quote for the NRA crowd is from John Sandford:

"Guns don't kill people, poeple kill people. . .
Guns just make it really really easy."

As for the idea that this stuff didn't happen before, check out the massacre in Bath, Michigan, in the 1930s. Bath hasn't been the same since. We've got more overall access to events now, and a blaring media.

It seems that this latest killer, Paddock, had no precursor signs. Well, his father was a top wanted criminal for one thing, and for another, we don't have all the facts yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:21 PM

The weapons were illegally modified. So what? He still obtained the weapons legally. I ask once again for anyone going down this track to compare the gun deaths in the US with the gun deaths in the UK. The difference is blatantly obvious.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:57 PM

what was the chain of events in the hotel itself. there was a veteran two stories above killer i think who kept trying to reach hotel desk, police, etc. he finally reached police. did killer disable phone system first, which would have been a smart move I would think. what could hotel staff have done that would not have endangered rest of hotel staff and guests? perhaps a recorded message..this is room service. the police are on their way. at the point the killer knows things are coming her/his way, they often shoot themselves. what would have minutes have bought them? I don't know. just speculating...what did hotel staff know, what did they do, what are they trained for? in a casino hotel there must be massive security...

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:48 PM

Smaller gauge would cut through the tendons and arteries better, as long as they are strong enough not to break.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:27 PM

What'd be the best string gauge for that... light or heavies..???

I have a few spare maple telecaster copy necks dotted around the house..

I think in the UK we might be allowed that much...????

..perhaps easier to explain to the law than baseball bats...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:17 PM

Not to worry, though.

It being illegal to fire a weapon in the city I live in, if someone invades my home I will just hit him/her over the head with a guitar, wrap the strings around their neck, and twist until the (person's) head comes off.... So much nicer than inflicting a disabling wound that they might recover from.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:13 PM

Backwoodsman,

Perhaps if we enforced the laws we have, and actually tried to tell people that it is NOT ok to violate the law because one wants to ( ie, punish those that do violate the law) there might be fewer murders.

Why do you think that passing laws that have been shown to have no or negative effect in this country a( see post with cities that have high crime- and strongest laws) would do any good? Can someone explain that?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:59 PM

Oh well, no point trying to do anything about it then. Just keep offering your useless 'thoughts and prayers'.

Good luck. So glad I don't live there.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:43 PM

One death is a tragedy- 50 is a political windfall.

But the fact is, NO additional gun laws would have prevented this, or other deaths.
THE PRESENT LAWS are not being enforced, so why pass more that will be ignored?

It is already against the law to murder people- so why do you think a new law would have stopped these murders?

Passing additional gun laws would NOT deal with the actual problem- they would be "feel-good" measures- Look, See what we have done!

Which would not reduce the murders, or be obeyed by the criminals. It would affect law-abiding folks- .

When your family is seconds away from tragedy, the police are minutes away.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:29 PM

Yeah... The Las Vegas mass killer was a retired accountant...

I guess he also was quite adept at minimising the significance of human suffering by visualising the world in terms of abstract numbers...???

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:15 PM

from Iain's clicky:
" Scotland has about 75,000 licensed firearms and shotguns. England and Wales even more, with about 1.8 million in circulation. And these guns have impact."

so, UK 1,875.000 firearms, 30 homicides by guns 0.000016 killed per gun
USA 300,000,000+ firearms 5100 homicides by guns <0.000017 killed per gun

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 02:59 PM

There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. The U.S. population is 324,059,091 as of June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death: • 65% of those deaths are by suicide, which would never be prevented by gun laws. • 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified. • 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons – better known as gun violence. • 3% are accidental discharge deaths. So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many?

Now lets look at how those deaths spanned across the nation. • 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago • 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore • 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit • 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years) So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause. This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation, or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1. Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So if all cities and states are not created equal, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths. Are 5,100 deaths per year horrific?

How about in comparison to other deaths? All death is sad and especially so when it is in the commission of a crime but that is the nature of crime. Robbery, death, rape, assault are all done by criminals. It is ludicrous to think that criminals will obey laws. That is why they are called criminals. But what about other deaths each year?
• 40,000+ die from a drug overdose–THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT!
• 36,000 people die per year from the flu, far exceeding the criminal gun deaths.
• 34,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities(exceeding gun deaths even if you include suicide). Now it gets good:
• 200,000+ people die each year (and growing) from preventable medical errors. You are safer walking in the worst areas of Chicago than you are when you are in a hospital!
• 710,000 people die per year from heart disease. It's time to stop the double cheeseburgers! So what is the point? If the liberal loons and the anti-gun movement focused their attention on heart disease, even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save twice the number of lives annually of all gun-related deaths (including suicide, law enforcement, etc.). A 10% reduction in medical errors would be 66% of the total number of gun deaths or 4 times the number of criminal homicides ................ Simple, easily preventable 10% reductions!

So you have to ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, why the focus on guns? It's pretty simple: Taking away guns gives control to governments. The founders of this nation knew that regardless of the form of government, those in power may become corrupt and seek to rule as the British did by trying to disarm the populace of the colonies. It is not difficult to understand that a disarmed populace is a controlled populace.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM

"But I also wish that the mentally impaired could find real treatment."

We're all "mentally impaired". It is impossible to judge whether someone presents a risk; this is a real and dangerous misunderstanding of mental illness. Demonising mentally ill people in this way only leads to a dark place...

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 12:13 PM

It's circular reasoning to say that someone is insane when your only evidence is what he did. That isn't evidence at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: leeneia
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM

The real problem is that the criminal was insane. If he didn't have guns, he could have driven a truck into the crowd, he could have built a bomb, or he could have started a fire in a crowded building.

Starting in the 1970's, western countries have abandoned their mentally ill. And other, evil people have moved in to exploit their fear and pain and to use them as "soldiers" for their causes. The Internet has made this process much worse.

I used the word "insane." Insane is not a medical term. What can it mean? Paranoia, alcoholism, illegal drugs, PSTD, brain tumor, are the main things that come to my mind.

Yes, I certainly wish that there were fewer guns around. But I also wish that the mentally impaired could find real treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 11:30 AM

Straying away from this horrific tragedy a little. Below is an analysis
some may agree with and others vehemently deny. It concerns a comparison with the UK gun laws(after Dunblane), Australia and the US.
It also raises possible reasons for the 2nd amendment and how Scotland never felt the need to follow the same road.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14340378.Twenty_years_on__the_truth_about_Dunblane_and_gun_laws/

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:27 AM

Search on the SCRAN site (http://www.scran.ac.uk/) for "Ploughmen at a 'harvest home'. Fairygreen Farm, Kinrossie, Perthshire, 1936" (they say "no Internet use" but if you have a Scottish library card you can log in).

Band lineup: Highland pipes, melodeon, rifle.