BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:23 AM

Big Al Whittle

The latest report is that the shooter had modified two guns himself (illegally)

Selling him a gun would have been legal in any state in the USA (See restrictions on HUNTING RIFLES)

NO proposed gun regulations would have stopped him from obtaining guns.


During WWII, the US made and dropped a million or so 12 gauge single shot shotguns into Europe, for use by the resistance ( in addition to other guns)

They consisted of 1- 12 gauge shotgun cartridge, a 2" piece of 2x4 wood, a nail, two pipes, and a couple of metal straps ( could have been made with rope or canvas strips). They were used to shoot enemy soldiers WHO HAD GUNS, and let the resistance arm themselves.

There are 300 + MILLION guns in the USA now. Say we collect 200,000,000 of them. That still leaves 100,000,000 out there.

Not even including theft of weapons from the police or military.

How many criminals do you think will turn in their illegal weapons?
It is against the law for a person ever convicted of a felony to possess a firearm- so what good does making a new law do?

It is against the law to shoot people without legal cause- Has that EVER prevented a shooting?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:15 AM

"the band were heavily armed"

Band audition - "Ok guys, we are looking for new band members, so let's see how well you play.. and shoot...!!!???"

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:10 AM

In the UK the list of items prohibited from being brought into a concert, festival, or public event
ranges from fair to unreasonable..
But we have to accept the rules, or risk being barred entry.....

This summer, even pineapples were added to the list......

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM

"the band were heavily armed"

We are totally fucked as a species.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 09:59 AM

Punkfolkrocker, the band were heavily armed, but as their guitarist Caleb said elsewhere in the tweet I cited above, their guns were useless in the circs.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:53 AM

One guy said that he saw the woman next to him shot in the head, "If only I'd had my gun...".

i wonder how 'having his gun' would have been of any benefit to the dead woman? How would he have managed to 'take out' a distant assailant he couldn't see and didn't know for sure where he was?

If people had 'had their guns' at the festival, the result would have been considerably more people dead and injured. Anyone with at least half a functioning brain should be able to understand that.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:36 AM

A popular NRA mantra is "If the good guys carry guns.."

Well there were something like 20,000 at that festival, in a City with probably the laxest gun laws, and easiest access to gun purchase...

Yet apparently that night none of the good citizens in the crowd were carrying, or they were so shocked they were incapable of responding, drawing, and shooting back...???

Which thankfully prevented the scenario of extra untold mayhem and bloodbath
of panicking shooters firing guns in every direction at any imagined sniper position...

That would have been one hell of an uncontrolled mess of a cowboy shoot out for the cops to contend with...

So did the festival have a search and hand in guns at the gate rule...???
Which would have been sensible considering the amount of alcohol to be enjoyed at a Country festival.....

And even if they did, how easily could stewards and security have implemented that 'infringement' on legal gun carriers rights...??????

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM

The moment you educate people that it's NOT OK to shoot people, the imagined 'need' for guns goes away, and disarmament makes complete sense to them

Unfortunately, the NRA and the weapons industry do a lot of lobbying and spend a lot of money on measures to ensure that the US public are not educated thus, and on instilling fear and paranoia.

Very few people have guns here, we're not scared. Average 70 gun-deaths a year in a population of 65 million v. 12,000 in a population of 360 million. Says it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM

Bill O'Rielly agrees with Mrrzy. He says "these mass shooting accidents are the price for freedom."
Some Americans think its OK like Mrrzy said. Others may know better but won't lift a finger.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:17 AM

He's being called a domestic terrorist.

The issue isn't with Americans and guns, look at Canada, lots of guns, you don't have to disarm like Australia. The issue is that Americans actually think it's OK to shoot people.

You can shoot people who come onto your property - when did trespassing get the death penalty?

You can shoot people who are taking your stuff - since when did robbery carry the death penalty?

You can shoot people when you're scared - since when is that not called Panicking and if you're a cop, you aren't a cop any more?

John Wayne has a lot to answer for.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 07:20 AM

The bbc is reporting that a lot of fake news is going about claiming the shooter was an anti Trump fanatic wheb the evidence is that he had no affliation to any such party or movement. It is hard to think of anything more despicable than using these people's deaths in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:44 AM

Every US kid in school has had active shooter practice lockdowns. They all have a fear of being shot I can not imagine

Until - I was at the Mall food court and lifted the wooden garbage can door way too hard and it went BANG - kids poured out of several booths and started running for their lives. Like fire spreading there were more who responded to the bang and running and did the same.

I now know kids constant fear of shooters.
I thank old dude for being a foil to present some waves of change that desperately need to turn into a current and someday a torrential call for common sense without loopholes.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM

Caleb Keeter, lead guitarist at the event, was a lifelong proponent of the Second. He has now tweeted: "I cannot express how wrong I was." That's earned him plenty of abuse from gun lobbyists, but I'm relieved to realise from his more recent, measured, thoughts that olddude will not be among them.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:48 AM

"What Stu said.

How do I know that American are totally insane? First of all they refuse to accept that they are 20 times more likely to be killed by gunfire than in countries with tighter gun laws and that half of all mass shootings in history have happened in the USA, all as a result of an obsession with gun ownership. Then, when the worst mass shooting in their history happens, what do they do? Go out and buy more guns."

You forgot to mention that they believe the answer to gun-violence, as well as buying more guns, is to offer 'thoughts and prayers'. 😳

He's not listening, guys. You're fucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

Steve's the name. It may be easy to you but you've attracted three sets of furrowed brows in under an hour. Have a large espresso and try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:49 AM

What Stu said.

How do I know that American are totally insane? First of all they refuse to accept that they are 20 times more likely to be killed by gunfire than in countries with tighter gun laws and that half of all mass shootings in history have happened in the USA, all as a result of an obsession with gun ownership. Then, when the worst mass shooting in their history happens, what do they do? Go out and buy more guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:46 AM

Easy Shaw. It is the human behind the machine that controls it.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:42 AM

"They have killed >3.5 million since their introduction into the US.
That is a much, much bigger number than 50."

I'm puzzled as to why you think that's a valid juxtaposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:41 AM

"If you wish to ban all guns, perhaps cars should be banned as well."

False equivalence, not an argument.

Apart from sports guns and hunting guns, all guns are banned here in the UK. We have plenty of folk who shoot but their weapons are strictly regulated; if a copper sees someone waving a pistol about then they got it illegally and they are dealt with (the police shot a man waving a pistol about dead the other day). Our hunters hunt, sportsmen shoot etc. but apart from that on criminals want or need a gun, and if you produce on in public, you're going to suffer the consequences.

I guess this would be impossible for a huge number of reasons, not least the scared cow of the second amendment and the culture of violence that the US is steeped in.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM

The difference is that the purpose of a car is to transport people and goods from A to B, whilst the purpose of a gun is to kill.

People need cars. Nobody, other than the armed forces and farmers, needs a gun. The UK and Australia are proof of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:56 AM

A crazy with guns illegally converted to automatic kills 50, wounds 200
In 2010, there were an estimated 5,419,000 crashes (30,296 fatal crashes), killing 32,999 and injuring 2,239,000,[2] and around 2,000 children under 16 years old die every year due to traffic collisions.

The argument concerning ownership of weapons capable of being converted to military spec. is a no brainer. They should be banned.
If a multimillionaire, with no previous, suddenly decides to open fire on a crowd, it is impossible to have any prior warning. Guns were a convenient weapon, it could have been a truck, or maybe a fuel tanker. If a person has money and wants to cause mayhem the possibilities are endless. He could have crashed his fully fuelled plane into the crowd.
If you wish to ban all guns, perhaps cars should be banned as well.
They have killed >3.5 million since their introduction into the US.
That is a much, much bigger number than 50.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 12:47 AM

Donuel says: Turning Bushmasters into automatics is an open 30 second secret.

Donuel hit the nail on the head. The same applies to the AR15. The recordings of the massacre had the familiar sound of automatic rifle fire that all of us who were in military service have heard. This was a military rifle, not a hunting gun. It was meant to kill people - and these weapons should be banned throughout the U.S.

I'd rather have European-style laws controlling firearms, but I doubt that such legislation would ever pass U.S. legislatures. But for God's sake, we need to ban military weapons - NOW.

The Trump Administration says, "not now." They are trying to imply that it is inappropriate to argue about banning military weapons in this time of mourning. I disagree. Do honor to these victims by banning military weapons NOW.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:16 PM

Old dude you are still repeating NRA jargon.

You are more qualified by your accomplishments to discredit the NRA than I , to discredit them to their face to their fans and to their politicians.
silence is consent
and not supporting is not
discrediting them.

this is assuming 30,000 lives lost per year is a meaningful greater good compared to go along to get along attitudes many have about the NRA

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:45 PM

The reason people use firearms to do such terrible things is not because of our laws, but the loopholes in some of our laws like the gun show make it easy to bypass many of the common sense laws we do have. The nra is powerful and the political guys won't go against them for fear of losing their jobs.. It's sad very sad. However, I would be just as horrified if he dumped napalm out the window on people... He was out to kill.. The rifle was an easier choice for him. But he was out to kill others

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:44 PM

He could have legally obtained his 40 guns including legal automatics and murdered 59.
There is even legal murder
so basically it sounds like you want to say something

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:36 PM

Yes, absolutely. I suspect he may have got an ar15 and had it converted illegal to full auto. That's why those guns and the ak47 should be banned.. They are no use to sportsmen or competition shooting. Just for war

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:29 PM

so basically someone has broken the law supplying this chap with guns, and he has broken a law acquiring automatic weapons...

is that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:19 PM

Thank you steve, Olddude simply likes competition shooting, rifle and handgun.. I also hunt from time to time.. You understand that my friend. Most here don't... No I do not support the nra. Ugh

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:39 PM

Maybe what this old accountant was thinking wasn't so uniquely American.

What he did was close to a one-man Battle of Omdurman. Which for a long time was a matter of chest-heaving national pride to the British and a huge boost to Churchill's personal myth. There are any number of Ukippers quite capable of fantasizing themselves into the colonial army's position and mowing down fuzzy-wuzzies with machineguns, they just don't have the weaponry to do it for real.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:24 PM

Good stuff, Peter. But olddude is a good dude. Well worth remembering.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:17 PM

Olddude bleats "What is going on in the mind of America today....?" Well like many a spoilt brat, America got rich to excess, couldn't handle it and wound up degenerate to the point of choosing Trump.

A bigger question is, what's going on in olddude's mind? To which the answer is what Steve said: gun culture. It's a culture that like many another (and all religions*) infects minds from the cradle. If I had been born into it myself, I would probably have succumbed. It takes a strong mind to resist. Gun culture was cultivated in the darkest days of America's dark modern history - part of what Dee Brown in Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee called "an almost reverential attitude to the ideal of personal freedom for those who already had it."

----

*I'm always amused by those who offer their prayers as a first response. What do they say in those prayers, and what kind of god do they think is listening?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:58 PM

"Someone intent on killing will kill regardless using any means."

Bullfuckingshit

575 bullets in people in 10 minutes.

What are the other comparable means in reality?

mad bombers at the marketplace?

Mindless repeated phrases by the NRA are gonna hafta STOP
they make innocent folk like old dude sound crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:55 PM

It looks like Nevada doesn't have much of any gun restrictions, especially pertaining to high capacity or automatic weapons. Chances are he'd have ignore those laws and found them elsewhere, since he was of a mind to commit murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:41 PM

The champion of mass shooters may well have had other illegal weapons. I do not want to know or care whether the murder weapons were illegal. If they are, there's something to be said about gun law enforcement in America. There may little to be said about gun culture in America that can't be said about gun laws, because they are the same thing. Thanks to the NRA on behalf of manufacturers.

Imagine every Starbucks in the world, in America we have more gun stores in comparison.

Turning Bushmasters into automatics is an open 30 second secret.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:29 PM

And I am the one here who has been screaming to get rid of gun show loophole.. In any event it is about how the hell someone goes so far off track as this guy. Someone intent on killing will kill regardless using any means.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:22 PM

Bee, I own hunting and target guns no auto or semi auto rifles.. Myself I have no use for an ar15 in semi auto mode, not a good deer gun, nor much of a target gun either.. It is designed for war.. Don't own one don't want one. No use for a sportsman

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:08 PM

Wonder if this guy will be a 'Christian Terrorist'?

If he belongs to or pledges allegiance to an extremist Christian group that believes that anyone who does not share his beliefs should be killed then yes, he should rightfully be called a Christian terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:48 PM

He may well have had other legal weapons. But I want to know whether the murder weapon was legal. If it wasn't, there's nothing to be said about gun laws in America. There may plenty to be said about gun culture in America. Not the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:27 PM

I do think that it's quite important that we know whether or not this chap acquired his automatic weapon legally or not.

He had 19 guns in his hotel room - plenty enough to kill twice as many people.

Nevada state law lets you buy pretty near anything that goes bang. Most of what he had must have been legal.

This must be a HUGE boost for the gun industry. Nutters all over the country getting hard-ons for Paddock's hardware. They haven't had a good national-headline-news bloody massacre to really show their product off since Trump got elected.

Actually I have a hard time giving a shit when American humans kill each other. The real catastrophe of American gun ownership is what hunting does to the environment: America's animals never voted for Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:11 PM

I do think that it's quite important that we know whether or not this chap acquired his automatic weapon legally or not. If not, the gun laws don't apply. That isn't to say that gun culture in the US doesn't apply. We do need to be clear about this. Kneejerk reactions are rarely the right reactions.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:00 PM

There are some us vs. them scenarios I believe in: 1% against the vulnerable, Korean cult vs US, Putin against the world, but Americans shooting Americans to get even for known or unknown reasons is a new individual gun sport. It is a relatively new reality. Perhaps Our Civil War in the past has not really passed.

Growing up in the West, Ozarks, bible belt, Midwest and western NY, I really do understand families with guns with or without military ties.

It is not that I do not understand. It is that I question things others may take as automatic heritage or an inviolate right.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 05:49 PM

I can only suggest that anyone who suggests that gun laws have little to do with this compares the number of deaths due to guns in the UK to the number of gun related deaths in the USA. As far as I can see, the statistics speak for themselves.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 05:36 PM

Here I was, worried about Phoenix, Arizona, because there was a right-wing summit going on there,
which reminded me of the counterprotest at the Boston Common.

Instead the Bogeyman of Derangement waved its magic what-ever
at Las Vegas, Nevada.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:54 PM

Can't see why everyone in the US is so uptight about North Korea getting a nuke. After all, the nuke won't kill anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:35 PM

I believe that gun is legal if it was manufactured prior to 1986. Probably wasn't, but do people actually check the age of weapons they're going to commit mass murder with?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:16 PM

"The point of my post was this: When shootings like this have occurred in the past, the rabid pro-gun faction has been relatively immune. They weren't personally injured. The victims were not among their number. It happened to "them" (gays, blacks, religious minorities, children, toddlers) not "us" (straight white Christians). Well, that asshole was shooting at a bunch of mostly white, Christian, 2nd Amendment supporters. He was shooting at "us", not "them"."
quote BWL

Fascinating.
This is thinking outside the box but unlikely to produce any enlightened laws. I guess I really don't think in terms of us vs them.
I worry this kind of thinking can encourage blaming liberals and a call to civil war from Christian 2nd ammendmenters.

To improve bigger and better shooting of deer without noise the NRA
just so happen need to pass their silencer freedom laws. I'm sure it will silence the shooting of 'dears'.
I doubt silencers will keep these shootings quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:41 PM

I never blamed guns, America has never come anywhere near blaming guns,
as evidenced by expanded laws to have more and better guns everywhere.

I blame a condition and the Never ending wars since Viet Nam with more gun trained survivors and their kids. I am not ignoring the average entertainment game, show or movie with an average of 10+ minutes of 'gun play'

The us vs. them argument is thought provoking. I never thought of it that way.

Horror heroics are what we are supposed to honor now, never blaming guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:27 PM

Hmmmmm, Trumpy's ban on Muslim immigrants didn't help stop it then?

If it had been a Muslim shooter, he'd be a 'Muslim Terrorist' according to the media. Wonder if this guy will be a 'Christian Terrorist'? I'm not taking bets.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:18 PM

A significant proportion of Americans have chosen this, they want lax gun laws and are prepared to accept a certain number of dead and injured people for their freedom to have guns. If you live a society awash with guns then this will happen, it cannot be legislated against.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM

Old dude, if you're looking for someone to do the pro-gun/anti-gun dance with, please look elsewhere. I own seven guns myself and have no problem with law-abiding and reasonably sane people owning as many hunting or target guns as they wish. I choose to draw the line at semi-automatic weapons which can be converted to fully-automatic and/or equipped with high-capacity magazines and which serve no purpose other than to kill human beings.

The point of my post was this: When shootings like this have occurred in the past, the rabid pro-gun faction has been relatively immune. They weren't personally injured. The victims were not among their number. It happened to "them" (gays, blacks, religious minorities) not "us" (straight white Christians). Well, that asshole was shooting at a bunch of mostly white, Christian, 2nd Amendment supporters. He was shooting at "us", not "them". That is bound to have some effect on how the conversation about the shooting goes.