BS: Damian Green

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:29 AM

Dave,
You stated quite categorically that "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side,

Yes I did. Do you really think that he should stay?

If I got it wrong, say so.
JUST TELL US WHAT YOU THINK!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:35 AM

"...bearing in mind he is clear he never put it there or watched it..."

Heheh. In the words of Mandy Rice-Davies...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:48 AM

"JUST TELL US WHAT YOU THINK!!!"
You never respond to what people say if it doesn't suit you - why change the habit of a lifetime?
Anybody who had the amount of porn he had on a parliamentary computer should be sacked if he doesn't have the decency to resign
The police have covered up this behaviour for a decade - maybe a few heads should roll there as well
We are talking about the elected guardians of our morals and the forces of law and order here - not exactly your average wankers (wankers all maybe - but far from average)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:49 AM

Heheh, there is absolutely no evidence against him.
That is why you had to make up lies and shit about him Steve.
Remember? You said police raids had found leaked government documents.
Lie.
You said he had been shown as dishonest. Another lie.

You have previously been dismissive of eye witness testimony as evidence, but that is all that exists.
And, those eye witnesses bore a grudge.
And, they waited ten years to come forward.
And, their testimony does not even incriminate him or even identify him as the person responsible.
And, a reliable witness, the Deputy Speaker, testified that her computer was similarly effected at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:50 AM

Jim,
You never respond to what people say if it doesn't suit you

Not true. What would you like my opinion on?
Just ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:58 AM

"What would you like my opinion on?"
Nothing Keith - just making an observation
Just put an example of your not responding on the thread where you are defending Parliamentary Pornos
You never respond to awkward questions and of late you have been whining that there is too much for you to respond to
Out of the mouths....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 09:16 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:58 AM
"What would you like my opinion on?"
Nothing Keith - just making an observation
Just put an example of your not responding on the thread where you are defending Parliamentary Pornos

And where it has been pointed out, on numerous occasions that, as yet, there are only accusations about pornography. And that the accusations have been denied. And the allegations were brought by those who might hold a grudge against the person they accuse.

The rule of (UK) law provides that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

So as yet we have no real evidence which is capable of corroboration.
So as yet we are not discussing "Parliamentary Pornos".

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 09:24 AM

"You certainly are a valiant defender of porn, Iains . Fits perfectly with your previously-insinuated tastes."

I know you inhabit a sandal wearing fantasy world shaw and make shit up as you go along.

How about you find anything I have said to support your vicious insinuation? Mudrat is far too kind a description for a piece of filth like you.

Perhaps your fixation on the subject is because you are a closet pornographer.
Methinks he doth protest too much

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 09:35 AM

No, Keith. I am not jumping through your hoops. I set you the task of providing examples of my views about Green and you have not provided them.

To paraphrase your own words

Heheh, there is absolutely no evidence.
That is why you had to make up lies and shit about me Keith.

Or maybe I should quote (parrotphrase?) your pet parrot, Iains

How about you find anything I have said to support your vicious insinuation?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 09:53 AM

"I have said to support your vicious insinuation?"
Try
"How many reading this have watched no porn on their own computers?"
"How about you find anything I have said to support your vicious insinuation?"
If it#s such a vicious insinuation to suggest you watch porn, why are you demanding that the policeman who exposed the practice by politicians be punished - or is it not "vicious" if politicians indulge in it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 10:05 AM

"there are only accusations about pornography."
Those accusations should have been investigated when made against somebody holding political office - they were covered up
"And that the accusations have been denied"
Of course they have - when have politicians ever owned up to anything?
"might hold a grudge against the person they accuse."
So an accuser who might.... is guilty without being tried but if a politician denies something is above investiation
Sound like the Brave New World you people have sought and won
"The rule of (UK) law provides that a person is innocent until proven guilty."
Isn't it what this is all about?
The accusations were never followed up
"So as yet we are not discussing "Parliamentary Pornos".
"Yes we are I've put up the figures for how many politicians have been accessing porn - they are obviously as above investigation as is Fireproof Damian
ONE MORE TIME
Why do you people scurry to defend these people - beyond me!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 10:24 AM

The people defending him here are arch-Tories to a man, Jim. Remember Tories? Self-interest first, the rest can go to hell as long as I'm all right Jack. As soon as a Tory is attacked for anything at all, his or her army of lackeys crawl out to attack that self-same press that has always been SO good to them, they go for the jugular of the BBC which is so establishment (and fairly Tory - think Nick Robinson, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman, Kamil Ahmed, tbe Dimbleby clan...),and God help you if you are a mere individual - why, Green's lackey fell on his sword for passing leaks to Damian who escaped unscathed (until now), and now those two coppers are likely toast as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 10:55 AM

"JUST TELL US WHAT YOU THINK!!!"

This bellowed comment from the guy who has studiously ignored four questions which I've asked him directly not once, but twice! In the extremely unlikely event that he really Di miss them the previous two times, here they are again...

"He denies it"

Well he would, wouldn't he?

"There is no evidence for it"

It will be a networked computer. There will be an audit-trail which will carry evidence of the person whose account was logged-in at the time the material was downloaded. Are you claiming that this audit-trail doesn't exist? Where is your evidence?

"Except the claims....of ex-cops with a grudge"

Where is your evidence of this simply being a matter of them holding a 'grudge'? Do you know the gentlemen personally? Have you discussed their views with them?

"It was ten years ago"

Are you claiming that there is a Time-Limitation on government ministers' Gross Misconduct? Evidence that this is the case?

Come on Professor, we're all waiting with bated breath for your pearls of wisdom...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 11:48 AM

"Come on Professor, we're all waiting with bated breath for your pearls of wisdom..."
That we should all live that long!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:09 PM

Dave, I said, "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side,"

That is what I think.
Am I wrong, or not. Just tell us!

Steve,
The people defending him here are arch-Tories to a man,

He does not need defending because nothing has been produced to condemn him.
Not one thing.

Also, I for one am not any kind of Tory.
I used to vote Labour in the Blair days as I have told you many times before.

Backwoodsman,
This bellowed comment from the guy who has studiously ignored four questions which I've asked him directly not once, but twice!

When you claimed that before I pointed out that I had answered and repeated my answer.
If I really have missed something, put it up now and I will respond.

It will be a networked computer. There will be an audit-trail which will carry evidence of the person whose account was logged-in at the time the material was downloaded. Are you claiming that this audit-trail doesn't exist? Where is your evidence?

You are asking me for evidence of no evidence! No-one has produced this audit trail and Green would be a fool to deny it if there was a chance of it being produced.

Also, we know porn appeared on at least one other parliamentary computer without the users' knowledge.

Where is your evidence of this simply being a matter of them holding a 'grudge'? Do you know the gentlemen personally? Have you discussed their views with them?

Their careers were blighted by the furore due to their actions. Who would not bear a grudge?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:19 PM

Bearing a grudge against the tories seems a perfectly reasonable state of mind to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:31 PM

Dave, I said, "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side,"

That is what I think.
Am I wrong, or not. Just tell us!

First you ask why I am posting here now you seem to be avoiding my question by demanding that I answer yours. What have I told you about not being on the moderation team?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:32 PM

This is very simple. He's been accused of viewing extreme porn on his work computer. The policeman declared that it is inconceivable that Green didn't know it was there. Yet Green said diddly-squat about it for nine years. If he didn't do it, he should sue his accusers and take them to the cleaners. In fact, one of the policemen is actually threatening to take legal action against Green for defaming him. On top of that he's been accused of inappropriate sexual advances by a Tory party worker. But Keith sez he has nothing to defend. If I were in his position and was innocent, I'd be defending myself like mad, I can tell you.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:08 PM

Dave,

I expressed an opinion that your posts showed you to be anti-Green.
Are you complaining that I was wrong or that I was right?
Are you anti-Green or not?
If you are anti-Green I was right about you.
Apparently only arch Tory supporters are pro-Green. Is that you?

Steve,
Yet Green said diddly-squat about it for nine years.

He did not know about it for 9 years.
The policeman told no-one about it for 9 years.

If he didn't do it, he should sue his accusers and take them to the cleaners.

For what? The existence of porn 9 years ago can not be proved either way.
The police have said they are considering prosecuting the accusers.

There is nothing but unsubstantiated accusations of legal activity.

That is all you have, and it is nothing.
Many politicians are accused of sexual impropriety, but that is not what this thread was started over.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:25 PM

"Are you anti-Green or not?"
For Christ's sake Keith, grow up
Green dodged exposure all those years ago with the help o the guardians of the law
The probability is that, given the level of use of porn by politicians there is no reason to believe he wasn't among those using it, but nobody can know for certain one way or the other.
What is wrong is the cover-up system that operates to protect the great and the good
Why do you insist o0n reducing these discussions to their lowest common denominator "I win, you lose" level more often that not in defence of the most extreme aspects of modern society.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:33 PM

He sez he didn't know about it. As he would. You have not got a clue that he did or didn't, but you assert that he didn't. Well the policeman who uncovered the porn has stated that there's no way Green could not have known about it. According to your thinking, any paedophile or groomer in the country could say he didn't know what was on his computer and have nothing to answer for. Not how things work, Keith. You believe him because he's a Tory and you always believe Tories. It doesn't matter to you how improbable his excuses are. You didn't believe the Labour Party on antisemitism in spite of the fact that you had next to no evidence, is because they are lefties. Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 03:57 PM

I expressed an opinion that your posts showed you to be anti-Green.

No you didn't, Keith.

You said, quite categorically

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 08:36 AM
...
Every post you have made here has been against Green.

That is a statement of fact, not the expression of an opinion. Unless of course you are using a different language. Which is of course what I keep suggesting.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:29 PM

...well... struggling here to come up with a post for green...

errrmmm... he's got nice shoes...???

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:41 PM

people can get addicted to anything, some have addictive natures. The driver is endorphins that are triggered by success.

And politicians are addicted to the power of winning, & of control.
They also have privileges, so the likelihood that there are politicians who have been embarrassed by their on-line activities then changing their methodology is a scenario hard to deny. We have the evidence. Two police officers and a victim.

Your choice is to demonise the complainants or the politician.

How ya gonna choose?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:55 PM

Well Mr Red, let's just make things a bit more accurate. How's about: two *retired* police officers and the *second most powerful* politician in the land...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:59 PM

Sod it. OK, the THIRD most powerful. Arlene Foster is the second. Or the first...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:06 PM

addicted to the power of winning, & of control.

Not just politicians Mr R. You need look no further than Mudcat to find others ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 04:39 AM

DtG - you can be so accurate at times!

I have toyed with pointing out that solipsism and sophistry** are an addiction as delineated in this parish. But that would be an insult and thread drift.
Damn it. I mean it as an insult.

Catch 22 anyone?





** or did I mean paralogism?         😡

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:09 AM

Steve,
He sez he didn't know about it. As he would.

So he is guilty whether he admits or denies it?

You have not got a clue that he did or didn't, but you assert that he didn't.

I do not. I merely point out the absence of any hard evidence, just unsubstantiated claims.
No-one's career should be destroyed for that.

Dave,
Every post you have made here has been against Green.
That is a statement of fact, not the expression of an opinion

That is a statement of what I think and believe.
If I got it wrong I am sorry.
Was I wrong Dave? Are pro-Green?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:13 AM

That is a statement of what I think and believe.

Welcome to the world of gold mental gymnastics.

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

OK, Keith. As it seems so important to you and, to be honest, it has now become boring. You win.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:17 AM

So, are you anti-Green or not Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:17 AM

...but one final shot. If "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side" is a statement of what you think and believe then "Every post shows that you are a knobhead" is a statement of what I think and believe. We shall leave it up to other people to decide who's beliefs are more accurate.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:20 AM

Dave, this thread is about the case of Damian Green.
Will you give your opinion on it or not?
If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:21 AM

None of your business.

End of story.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:27 AM

The claims that he used, if not also downloaded, porn on his work computer are not unsubstantiated. It was his computer. The porn was on it. That is substance. Not proof, though in my opinion he has a bit more explaining to do than simply denying everything. If I found porn on my computer I'd be racking my brain as to who could have known my password, etc., or finding out what was up with my firewall, and, once I'd found out, I'd take them to the cleaners. But he's apparently just sat on this for nine years. He needs to tell us how he investigated and dealt with the miscreant, if that's what he did. As I've repeatedly said, this issue is now public and whether that's legitimate or not is water under the bridge. He now has another sex allegation pending. He's not just another ordinary employee doing naughty-naughty at work during slack periods. He's second-in-charge of the country. His integrity is in question and denying everything simply doesn't cut it. Anyway, it's gone quiet on this for a day or two. I suppose he's hoping it'll go away. I think he could be mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 06:27 AM

Life at work was so much simpler and easier in the much more innocent pre-internet ages..

You'd just have nudey calendars and pinups stuck on the office walls, and find communal mucky photo mags generously left in the gents bogs....

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 07:21 AM

Dave,
None of your business.

Not just me. I am sure everyone is now intrigued to know your views on the thread subject.
Everyone else has expressed theirs, but dear little Dave is much too coy.
19 posts to the thread without actually expressing an opinion!
What are you like Dave?

Steve,
The claims that he used, if not also downloaded, porn on his work computer are not unsubstantiated. It was his computer. The porn was on it. That is substance

It is unsubstantiated that there was any porn at all.
If there was, it is unsubstantiated how it got there.
No substance whatsoever.

If I found porn on my computer I'd be racking my brain as to who...

He did not find it. The policeman claimed to have found it, but ten years too late for anyone to check.

But he's apparently just sat on this for nine years

No. The policeman did. You are back to making shit up again!

He needs to tell us how he investigated and dealt with the miscreant, if that's what he did.

He had no way of knowing there even was one, if indeed there was.
It is all entirely unsubstantiated by any scrap of hard evidence.

We do not do Stalinist show trials here yet.

He now has another sex allegation pending

No another. Just the one, and that is being properly and fully investigated.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 07:33 AM

I'd hazard an educated guess that an ex senior cop would have kept some kind of informal personal record of evidence,
if only to cover himself if necessary at some indeterminate point in the future...

Even I use my phone cam to record just about every document I sign, or paperwork I need a quick reference of,
including photosnaps of on screen emails and suchlike.....

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 07:44 AM

I am sure everyone is now intrigued to know your views on the thread subject.

I am equally sure they could not give a shit about my opinion. Can you not just accept that you have won? You have worn us down with your incessant mental gymnastics. Well done.

25 posts without actually doing anything useful at all.
What are you like Keith?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 08:27 AM

"Not just me. I am sure everyone is now intrigued to know your views on the thread subject."
Then why isn't everybody moronically demanding an answer (which you have already had)?
"We do not do Stalinist show trials here yet."
You appear to be rehearsing for them with your relentless interrogations of other members
You are doing exactly the same thing on the Brexit thread - maybe it's time to TRY ONE OF THESE
I repeat what I said earlier - it is a sign of megalomania to make statements on behalf of others without consulting them
You just go on defending Parliamentary porn and leave everybody else out of your sick campaign
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 08:56 AM

Defending tories is definitely a sick campaign;
but let's not condemn all 'porn and porn users' by such diabolical associations..
Also, seems folks are more concerned with Green's internet mucky pictures,
than his alleged real world inappropriate predatory sexual advances
and abuse of high power over subordinates...???

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 09:26 AM

I'm just concerned that the second-in-command of this country demonstrates to us that he's a decent and honourable man. The policeman is on record as saying that it is inconceivable that Green didn't see the porn. He will have his reasons for making that assertion and Green has done nothing to counteract it. As yet we are not privy to that information. Good post, by the way, pfr. I do all that as well. I even take photos of any car at Morrison's which is parked too close to mine...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 10:15 AM

Dave,
25 posts without actually doing anything useful at all.
What are you like Keith?

I have said what I think Dave, and so has everyone else except you.
What is your problem?

Steve,
and Green has done nothing to counteract it

What can he do but deny it?
What would you have him do?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 10:38 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 09:26 AM
I'm just concerned that the second-in-command of this country demonstrates to us that he's a decent and honourable man. The policeman is on record as saying that it is inconceivable that Green didn't see the porn. He will have his reasons for making that assertion and Green has done nothing to counteract it. As yet we are not privy to that information.

I'm more concerned by the suspension of the 'presumption of innocence'. Green has denied the claims.
However, for most circumstances it is almost impossible to prove a negative. Showing us his current computer cannot prove his innocence.
But the police have nothing to prove his guilt.

This is why the 'presumption of innocence' is so important, and you can't just decide to suspend it for those you don't agree with. It must apply to all, equally.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 10:44 AM

This is why the 'presumption of innocence' is so important, and you can't just decide to suspend it for those you don't agree with. It must apply to all, equally.

Agreed but this is a legal concept and even if he viewed pornography there is no crime. This is a moral issue to which no such failsafe applies. If you believe it should then you need to apply it to the gutter press who use smear and innuendo to discredit anyone they dislike and those who seem to believe and repeat every word they say. Particularly about left wing politicians.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 11:00 AM

"I'm more concerned by the suspension of the 'presumption of innocence'. Green has denied the claims."
Then it doesn't concern you that the discovery of porn on the computer wasn't investigated at the time, which is an indication that it existed?
This seems to be an example of the establishment closing ranks (and their apologists rallying around them for thee same purpose)
People seem to be overlooking this accusation by a Tory activist

"Damian Green is Theresa Mays right-hand man in the Cabinet. He was accused of making flirtatious passes at a young Tory activist and touching her leg - accusations he denied"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 12:02 PM

But the police have nothing to prove his guilt.

It is not a police matter. No crime is alleged.
The police are considering taking action against the ex-cops.

Jim,
Then it doesn't concern you that the discovery of porn on the computer wasn't investigated at the time, which is an indication that it existed?

There is no evidence that it existed, apart from the allegations ten years later. If it did exist it was not a police matter because there was no criminal activity and it would have had no bearing on the investigation.

People seem to be overlooking this accusation by a Tory activist

It is currently being investigated. There is no cover up.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 12:17 PM

"It is currently being investigated. There is no cover up."
It has been covered up for nine years
Stop defending Parliamentary hypocrisy Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 12:28 PM

Incidentally; Quick was "discredited for a misdemeanour

"Mr Quick resigned his post with the Metropolitan Police in 2009 after he was photographed entering Downing Street carrying a secret briefing note on which details of the undercover operation could be seen."

This misdemeanour has now been raised as part of the cover-up.

The Irish Government nearly collapsed last week after a similar affair
An honest police whistleblower reported a mass practice by the police of faking the number of breathalyzer tests - when he made his complaint, the authorities colluded with the heads of the police force to smear the whistleblower - this reached to the top echelons of Government
Last week the deputy Prime Minister was forced to resign because of her part in the cover up
This is what these people do
In the case of Green, MI5 were aware of the porn
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 01:43 PM

It has been covered up for nine years

No it was not.
The cop never reported it for nine years. Until he did there was nothing to cover up.

In the case of Green, MI5 were aware of the porn

You have just made that up Jim.
You people are really desperate. If there is no evidence just make some up, as your mentors did in the show trials.
Decent people call it lying.