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Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn

DigiTrad:
FALSE LADY
FALSE TRUE LOVE
THE LORD OF SCOTLAND
YOUNG HUNTING
YOUNG HUNTING 2
YOUNG REDIN


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GUEST,Kevin W. 07 Jun 18 - 02:52 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 18 - 10:30 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 07 Jun 18 - 11:13 AM
Reinhard 07 Jun 18 - 03:55 PM
GUEST 08 Jun 18 - 02:19 AM
GUEST,Kevin W. 08 Jun 18 - 02:22 AM
GUEST 08 Jun 18 - 03:01 AM
GUEST,Reinhard 08 Jun 18 - 03:02 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 18 - 03:16 AM
Brian Peters 08 Jun 18 - 04:51 AM
GUEST 09 Jun 18 - 12:06 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 18 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Kevin W. 09 Jun 18 - 12:42 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 18 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Kevin W. 09 Jun 18 - 02:59 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 18 - 11:40 AM
Brian Peters 11 Jun 18 - 10:52 AM
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Subject: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 07 Jun 18 - 02:52 AM

Hello folks,
does anybody know of any (publicly) available field recordings of "Young Hunting" (Child Ballad 68) which mention the sound of a bugle horn in the opening stanza?

The stanza usually runs something like this:

As Lady Margaret was going to her bed
She heard the sound of a musical horn
It made her heart feel glad and sad
To think it was her brother John, John
Coming in from his wild hunt

I like this ballad very much and I would love to hear a field recording of it that has this important stanza.

I know that Marybird McAllister's version from Browns Cove, Virginia which was recorded by George Foss in 1958 is an excellent full version.
Another version that has the stanza is from Adolphus Small (Dol Small) of Nellysford, Virginia, it was recorded by Maud Karpeles and Sidney Robertson Cowell in 1950.

But neither of those recordings seems to be accessible for public listening.

One important version which you can listen to online is this one:
Mrs. Hannah Gatts Rogers - You murdered your love in the Hall (Young Hunting) , recorded by Samuel P. Bayard in 1964.

It's a rather complete version with a very beautifuel tune, but the opening verse is sadly missing here.

Is it even possible (and affordable?) to request a digitized version of MacAllisters version from the institution that owns the original recording?
I'm sorry, I really have no idea where to ask about this, that's why I hope that someone here on mudcat might be able to help me.

Many thanks to Richard Matteson of Bluegrass Messengers , by the way!
Your website is the most wonderful thing I ever saw, a treasure trove of information for Child Ballad enthusiasts, thank you for your hard work!

It was from your website that I found out about Marybird McAllister's version of Young Hunting.

~Kevin from Germany


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 18 - 10:30 AM

No bugle I'm afraid, but in my opinion this is the finest 'field' version of this ballads I have ever come across, it rates pretty highly as one of the best ballad singing ever.
It can be found on the fairly recently reissued (from cassette) 'Songs of the Irish Travellers'- a fine collection from the field work of Tom Munnelly
The singer made his living chopping and selling logs, hence the background accompaniment by his son
I can't find it on Utube, but anybody wishing to hear it contact me
Jim Carroll


Martin McDonagh (74), Lanabawn, Roscommon, Co Roscommon, 22 May 1974 IFC TM 293
3.   Lady Margaret
Will you bow down, Lord Thomas, he said,
Will you bow down all night?
It's you'll have cheer and company
And candles burning bright, bright,
And candles burning bight.
Oh then, I'll not bow down, Lady Margaret, he said,
Or I'll not bow down at all
Because I have a far better bride than you
Is beyond Lord Bernet's wall.

So she took him by the saddle skirts
For to kiss his lips so sweet
But she held a penknife in her hand
Is that wounded him full deep

Oh, you wounded me, Lady Margaret, he said,
And you wounded me full sore;
Was there ever a lady in this wide world
That I loved ne'er so more?

She called upon her waiting maids
By one, by two, by three,
Will you take this honourable gentleman
And this time it is in by me?
One of them took him by the saddle skirts
And the other by the feet
And they throw him into that yon spring well
That was fifty fathoms deep.

Oh then up comes this little robin bird
And he lay all on this tree,
You go home, go home, lady Margaret, he said
And pay your maids their fee, (their fee)

Oh will you come to me is my little robin bird
And light all on my knee?
I will make a cage of the best of gold
In the stead of that briar tree.

Oh then, I'll not go to you, Lady Margaret, he said,
Nor I'll not go to you at all,
When you proved so false to your own true love
Is you will prove false to me, (me, when you would        )

Oh if I had my bow arrow here
And it set all on my knee
Wouldn't I fire and shoot that bold bold bird
Is that spoke so bold to me, (to me....?)

Oh if you had your bow arrow here
And it set all on your knee
Oh wouldn't I take wings and fly away
To some foreign countery, y,
To some foreign counter (spoken) y?

TM: Martin, where did you get that?
Well, I suppose I was only a very wee boy when I heard that now.
Who did you hear it from ? Can you remember?
-I do, I heard it from my mother,
the Lord have mercy on her        
What was her name Martin, what was her full name?
Kate McDonagh was her name.

The late Martin Mcdonagh was a tall moustachioed man with a very dignified bearing. This impassive dignity is very much a part of his exquisite ballad singing. At the time of the recording he was settled with his genial son - also named Martin -who has learnt a number of his father's songs.
Log - chopping can be heard in the background of the recording.
This ballad - Child no 68, Young Hunting - has rarely been published from Irish sources, yet it is quite common among Irish Travellers, from whom I have recorded it a number of times. See also A. Gardner-Medwyn 'Miss Reburn's Ballads' in Ballad studies ed. E.B. Lyle, London 1976, pp. 93-116; Patrick Kennedy Evenings in the Duffrey pp. 101-2.
Text: 1.1 for she said 1.2 tape: all light? 3.4. etc Is emphatic link 4.4 tape: there so more? 8.2. tape: write? 8.3 or make ye a 11.3 sung: take fl-wings


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 Jun 18 - 11:13 AM

The details of the Marybird McAllister version are:

Memorial University Folklore Archive (MUNFLA) (St. John's, Newfoundland) acc. 69-4 / tape C569 / counter 88

and contact information is:

MUN Folklore and Language Archive, Department of Folklore, Room ED4038, G.A.Hickman Building, Memorial University of Newfoundland, St. John's, NL, Canada, A1B 3X8

Telephone: (709) 864-8401

Fax: (709) 864-4718

Email:munfla@mun.ca

Hours of Operation:

Monday - Friday, 10:00 AM - 4:00 PM, excluding Wednesdays and University holidays (see listing below).

This is their index entry for the song Love Henry


The Roud index has 48 entries for Sound recordings, though not all of them are publicly available (LOC has several) and of the ones I could access none had the verse you wanted (I think a few have Young Hunting with a horn around his neck).


Mick


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: Reinhard
Date: 07 Jun 18 - 03:55 PM

Not a field recording but Hedy West sang this verse on her 1967 Topic album "Ballads". The album's notes state that "Cecil Sharp collected this Virginia version in 1916."


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 02:19 AM

- To Jim Carroll:

I actually have this CD from Pavee Point.
I agree with you on Martin McDonagh's singing, it is very tender and captivating, one of the most wonderful source singers I have heard so far.

I think that all of the "Songs of the Irish Travellers" and "Early Ballads in Ireland 1968-1985" are some of the finest source singer recordings ever made.

By the way, the booklet notes on the song say that Young Hunting has rarely been published from Irish sources, would you happen to know of any other Irish examples of this ballad?
I was always under the impression that McDonagh's version was the only one collected in Ireland.


- To Mick Pearce (MCP):
Thank you for this information, I'll give it a try and contact MUNFLA about the recording.


- To Reinhard:
I know Hedy West's recording of the ballad. I don't know if Cecil Sharp's informant made this mistake or if it was Hedy West but it seems as if "Brother John" and "Love Henry" have switched places in the opening verse of this version...

Usually it is Henry returning from his hunt and brother John returning from his king.


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 02:22 AM

Sorry, that was me, Kevin in the post above.

I also noticed that I made a mistake, Mrs. Hannah Gatts Rogers' Young Hunting was recorded in 1949, not 1964.


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 03:01 AM

Kevin, see Cecil Sharp's manuscript, noted down from Mrs. Orilla Keeton of Mount Fair, Virginia, on September 26, 1916.


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: GUEST,Reinhard
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 03:02 AM

Now I forgot to add my name in the post above ;-)


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 03:16 AM

"I was always under the impression that McDonagh's version was the only one collected in Ireland."
I was under that impression too; unfortunately I never got around to asking my late friend, Tom Munnelly, where the others were recorded.
Tom's collection is housed with the National Folklore Collection at UCD
Sadly, one of Tom's last projects proposed by his employers at the Folklore Department was to compile a comprehensive collection of Irish songs from his own recordings - tom died before he could begin work on it
Ireland is sadly lacking in such a collection and I have been attempting to arouse interest in getting one published in Tom's memory, so far, without success
Such a collection should feature some of the wonderful rare ballads Tom Collected.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 04:51 AM

Martin McDonagh's rendition is notable not just because it's a unique Irish version of Child 68, but because as far as I know it's the only example of this ballad having been collected in the British Isels during the 20th century. Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither Greig nor Carpenter seems to have found it in Scotland, and it was never collected in England at all.

Child has a number of Scots texts containing several supernatural elements beyond the talking bird (corpse candles, etc) but all of the Appalachian variants end, like McDonagh's, with the bird conversation. If the ballad in Appalachia dates back to the 18th century migrants, it rather begs the question, 'when and how did all the supernatural stuff get attached?'

I suspect this will be discussed on Richie's Carpenter / Child thread.


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 12:06 PM

- To Jim Carroll:
Would you mind sharing your version of the recording of Martin McDonagh's Young Hunting with me?

The reason I ask is that I tried making an mp3 file from my Songs of the Irish Travellers CD and for some reason it sounds all muffled and it's hard to make out the words.
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but it doesn't sound like that when I listen to it from the CD.

I'd really enjoy having it as a file that I can listen to on my PC.


- To Brian Peters:

I did a bit of version comparison on Richard's wonderful Bluegrass Messengers site and found some interesting variants of Young Hunting.

This version from Phillips Barry was learned by the informant's mother in her youth in Northern Ireland:
The Faulse Ladye - Nelson (New Brunswick) c.1849 Barry A

If you compare the text to Martin McDonagh's version you'll see that it is actually fairly similar.

This version from Nova Scotia is also similar to the two Irish versions but has an additional opening verse and some stanzas are out of order:
Young Hunting - Gallagher (NS) 1937 Creighton A

A rather unusual version is this fragment:
Sir Robin - Swetnam (MS) 1936 Hudson A

No supernatural "candles shining bright" here, but textually this fragment clearly relates to the early Scottish versions in which the king's duckers/divers search for the body of the dead man and the lady is getting punished for her crime.

It appears to be unique in comparison to all the other American variants of the ballad except maybe the following one:
Lord of Scotland - Edwards (VT) c.1940s Cazden

This is the only other American version to mention the father-in-law inquiring about his missing son (as far as I know).
Perhaps this is old news to you, but I found it quite interesting.


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 12:26 PM

"Would you mind sharing your version of the recording of Martin McDonagh's Young Hunting with me?"
Would be happy to if you let me have an e-mail address - you can get mine from Joe Offer
Jim


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 12:42 PM

Jim,
I was just looking through my email folder and I still have your address because you helped me when I was searching for "Early Ballads in Ireland" a few years ago.

That was before the cassette was re-released on CD.
I now have the CD release from An Góilín and I couldn't be happier.

The Child Ballad variants collected in Ireland are amongst most complete I have ever heard. Many of them are similar to Scottish variants which had already disappeard in Scotland by that time.

Anyways, I'll send you an email so you can get my address.


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 01:41 PM

Kevin
Some time ago I began to compile a file of Child Ballads that had been reccorded from Field singers in Ireland - Tom Munnelly listed 50 of them - I have access to some
If you (or anybody here is interested in a coly of the file (when it is completed) I'm happy to pass it on - no promises of when, but I'm trying to tidy up our sound files so it shouldn't be too long
Jim


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 09 Jun 18 - 02:59 PM

Jim
That's a wonderful idea. I'd really love to see it when you are done!

As a matter of fact, for the past seven years I've been working on a collection of Child and broadside ballad recordings from source singers for my own enjoyment.
I've been gathering sound recordings from records that I bought, from online archives etc. pretty much all the sources I could find and sorted them after their Child or Roud numbers.
I'm always excited when I discover a new variant that I haven't heard before and can compare it to all the other versions.

Now this might come out of the blue, I'm sorry, but perhaps I should explain. I have a mild form of autism and listening to and comparing folk song variants has become one of my favourite pasttimes.
I'm not sure why that is, but collecting things and spotting differences appears to be something that people with autism really enjoy doing.
Hearing, memorizing and singing ballads helps me cope with the stress of our modern, fast and noisy world. Unaccompanied singing is easier on my ears than the over the top arrangements that many revival singers prefer.

I discovered the child ballads through my father, who had some LPs of Ewan MacColl. He grew up in the 60s, in Germany, I don't know how he came to be interested in this music.
Ballad singing declined much earlier in Germany than it did in many parts of the English speaking world, so that's why I mostly focus on English language songs.

Well, I hope I didn't bother you with my rambling about. Sometimes I'm unsure where to stop when I'm trying to explain myself.


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 18 - 11:40 AM

Kevin
There's a Dropbox for you to open - I'll let everybody know when the Irish Child ballads are completed
Sometime ago I put together a selection of Irish songs for a student in Limerick University - it's a categorised survey of the Irish repertoire - an introduction, you might say - Ballads, Anglo Irish, Native Irish, Irish Language
For your interest, I'll put the folder in Dropbox for you - ignore it if it's of no interest
If anybody else would like it, feel free to send me your e-mail address
Jim


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Subject: RE: Child 68 Field Recording with bugle horn
From: Brian Peters
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 10:52 AM

Thanks, Kevin - it wasn't old news, since I haven't gone systematically through all of the versions of 68 on Richie's site.

"This is the only other American version to mention the father-in-law inquiring about his missing son (as far as I know)."

There is a clear similarity there: unusual for 'father-in-law' to be mentioned at all, and the phrase 'my heart will break with sorrow' is common to both. Not sure what it might mean, though!


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