UK Folk Revival 2018

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 03:26 AM

"Here we go again with the collectors 'owning' the people whose singing they recorded!"
You appear to be making an issue of this for some reason - what a pity you appear to have no other point to make
Far from being an attempt at "ownership", as you seem to in#fer, it is to show that the singer was established in her art
It iis common to talk about Sharp's singers (researchers like Roud do it all the time) or Grainger's, or Carpenters or Mike Yates's... it iw a way of establishing time and place
   
How did we meet her?
I have explained this elsewhere.
Four od us went on a motoring holiday in 1968 - John Faulkner, Sandra Kerr, Sandra's brother and me
We were giben the address of a broadcaster friend of MaCColl's, Charlie Couts, (hope that didn't give the impression that Ewan owned him) who was working for Budapest Radio, Charlie introduced us to people at the Folk Music Department - they took us to meet one of Kodaly's singers (please don't be silly) and brought their (yes - I think they did own it!)
While we were there, one of the team suggested we ask the singer dor ballads on themes that occurred in the British repertoire - Sandra ased here about "the one where the woman who murdered her illegitimate babies - and the lady obliged
Sandra asked the team to send her a copy of the recording - my own interests in field recording hadn't developed at that time

We had no itinerary - -it was a holiday which started with a stop in Vienna to meet another friend of MacColl's (he didn't own him, of course), went on to Budapest, where we were interviewed for English language radio, and then on to Yugoslavia and finally to the Island of Krk, where we swapped songs witn Bosnian fishermen
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,guessed
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 09:06 PM

I was even lucky enough to be introduced to and record one of Zoltan Kodaly's singers in Hungary


Here we go again with the collectors 'owning' the people whose singing they recorded!


But this is interesting, and I doubt there was much 'luck' involved.

The story behing this meeting would be interesting: how did it come about that Jim was in Hungary with recording equipment? Was this 'luck' or was it planned as a folk recording trip? How come he was introduced to this singer? Who was the singer? When and where did this happen? Who made the introduction and why? Was it planned before or after Jim arrived with his equipment, and by whom? How was Jim's Hungarian itinerary planned? Because this doesn't sound like a series of lucky co-incidences and the full story would be interesting? How did Jim know what the song was? Who chose the song? How did Jim know that this was in fact one of 'Kodaly's singers'?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 08:27 AM

Barking hosts a festival, i suppose thats an appropriate name, no dogs booked as far as i know,
i am joking

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 07:16 AM

Where's this geriatric dog home- Sidmouth??- have never been

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,EFDSS admirer
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 11:19 AM

We can all meet old pals in the geriatric dog home.
EFDSS running festivals, hardly new didnt they start Sidmouth.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 09:39 AM

well theres quite a lot of sessions where singers aren't really welcome. they just like playing tunes. as a singer - you're just about tolerated.

that's just another aspect of the folk revival. like the singer/songwriters. and the folk dance.

its a big picture - not just confined to one lot of activity.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 09:27 AM

Dick, we obviously agree about the 'community' being important if the music is to thrive, and you practice what you preach with your own events in your own village.

Now I'm not one for festivals, as you know, and I can't really see the point of them apart from a chance to meet old pals but as for the EFDSS running festivals- thanks but no thanks...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Despondent of Slough
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 09:25 AM

Thanks everybody much intellectual stimulation here.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 09:18 AM

"I can live with that..."
If it's a pievce of music i can't be a folk song
I don't disparage anything - certainly not anybody's tastes
For me, the most exquiste pies of orchestral music ever written was Gouge Butterworth 'Banks of Green billow, based on the ballad, Bonnie Annie
Rejecting the words of a folk song for the tune is like throwing away the Bounty Bar and eating the wrapper
Not for my pallette
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 08:54 AM

""It is fairly common for a song to be over-accompanied or over-ornamented
Once that happens it becomes a piece of music with words, rather than a narrative""

I can live with that...

But I don't dismiss or disparage folks who prefer words over music...

Each to their own, coexisting as happily as possible as far as I'm concerned...

Having said that, I don't like show off musical virtuosity, and endless soloing...

Keep it minimalist, short, and to the point - is my personal preference...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 08:51 AM

I should make it clear that I have nothing personal against Bob Dylan, but I wouldn't like him to marry may sister!
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Knockroe
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 08:44 AM

Bob famously describes himself as a Song and Dance Man, whether you like that sort of thing or not.
I'm enjoying the feisty discussion, particularly re traditional singing.
Particularly like Jim's point above:
"It is fairly common for a song to be over-accompanied or over-ornamented
Once that happens it becomes a piece of music with words, rather than a narrative"

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 08:15 AM

"If he said that, you can bet your life it was to deflect some idiot asking, what does this mean..."
Nope - he said it at a prize giving - and he was right to do so
Much of it is impenetrable
In fairness, he describes himself a musician rather than a poet - which makes sense, if you like that sort of thing
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 07:50 AM

Dylan has never had an unguarded moment in his life.
If he said that, you can bet your life it was to deflect some idiot asking, what does this mean...?

AS Ezra Pound put it. A poem is an equation for an emotion. If you can explain what it means - there would have been no reason to write it. That's how poetry works.

I'm sorry you haven't noticed that a lot of people living in England relate to Dylan's songs and views about folk music. Almost certainly more than relate to Ewan's.

As Tony Hancock said, if this had been an election - you'd have lost your deposit mate...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 06:56 AM

"Jim I think that you are being very parochial."
How - aren't we talking about British and Irish songs
I know perfectly well what happens in other countries - we have hundreds of hours of the stuff - but it ain't what we did
When I talk about "our singers" I'm taking about us British and Irish
I know the repertoires inside out, I've been listening to the stuff since I was in my early twenties

I have extremely wide interests - in all traditional musics
I was even lucky enough to be introduced to and record one of Zoltan Kodaly's singers in Hungary - she sang us a Hungarian version of 'The Cruel Mother' (unaccompanied, as it happens)

There is nothing wrong with accompaniment any more than there is decoration, but it has to serve the narrative, and not the other way around as it has become on the folk scene
The plage of 'Electric Folk turned or songs and ballads into impenetrable soup - you could go down for a pee and a pint during some of the over-indulgent guitar breaks

Dick
In an unguarded moment Dylan admitted that his poetry was meaningless gibberish - doesn't stop some of his Zimmermanite follows from worhiping at his feet
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:29 AM

that is true and i think dylans farewell angelina is in this category, though god knows what dylan was trying to say, wheras in the same pop but folky sounding genre donovans colours has some of the essnce of folk" simplicity"
Farewell Angelina[what is he trying to say, seems like he is throwing cliches together, imo]
T

[
compare it to colours
Farewell Angelina
The bells of the crown
Are being stolen by bandits
I must follow the sound
The triangle tingles
The music play slow
But farewell Angelina
The night is on fire
And I must go

[Verse 2]
There is no use in talking
And there's no need for blame
There is nothing to prove
Ev’rything still is the same
A table stands empty
By the edge of the stream
But farewell Angelina
The sky's changing colours
And I must leave

[Verse 3]
The jacks and the queens
They forsake the courtyard
Fifty-two gypsies
Now file past the guards
In the space where the deuce
And the ace once ran wild
Farewell Angelina
The sky is folding
I'll see you after a while

[Verse 4]
See the cross-eyed pirates sitting
Perched in the sun
Shooting tin cans
With a sawed-off shotgun
And the corporals and neighbors
Clap and cheer with each blast
Farewell Angelina
The sky it is trembling
And I must leave fast

[Verse 5]
King Kong, little elves
In the rooftoops they dance
Valentino-type tangos
While the hero's clean hands
Shut the eyes of the dead
Not to embarrass anyone
Farewell Angelina
The sky is flooding over
And I must be gone

[Verse 6]
The camouflaged parrot
He flutters from fear
When something he doesn't know about
Suddenly appears
What cannot be imitated
Perfect must die
Farewell Angelina
The sky's flooding over
And I must go where it is dry


[Verse 7]
Machine guns are roaring
Puppets heave rocks
At misunderstood visions
And at the faces of clocks
Call me any name you like
I will never deny it
But farewell Angelina
The sky is erupting
And I must go where it's quiet
Colours
Yellow is the color of my true love's hair
In the mornin', when we rise
In the mornin', when we rise
That's the time, that's the time
I love the best

Blue's the color of the sky
In the mornin', when we rise
In the mornin', when we rise
That's the time, that's the time
I love the best

Green's the color of the sparklin' corn
In the mornin', when we rise
In the mornin', when we rise
That's the time, that's the time
I love the best

Mellow is the feelin' that I get
When I see her, mm hmm
When I see her, uh huh
That's the time, that's the time
I love the best

Freedom is a word I rarely use
Without thinkin', mm hmm
Without thinkin', uh huh
Of the time, of the time
When I've been loved ,
now i agree its just a love song and maybe a bit light weight, but it is clear

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:13 AM

Jim I think that you are being very parochial. Other countries have other traditions, even the UK has other traditions, and your use of the term "our singers" is very narrow. They may be your singers, but others of us have wider interests.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 04:11 AM

I appreciate most art, Dick, including storytelling. I don't understand the preoccupation some people have with the use of words. To me, the story is the important thing, not the language. Sometimes the use of 'clever' linguistic tricks can detract from the story as much as over arrangement can from a song.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 04:09 AM

"Jim's genre is very narrow."
Blame it on all those traditional singers David - they told us what they felt about their songs - we recorded wite a few of them saying exactly that
Comparing them to other traditions proves nothing, it really doesn't
Our oral tradition is overwhelmingly unaccompanied - why?
Were our singers unable to walk and chew gum at the same time like thir American, Spanish, Eastern European, Asisia counterparts were?
What with their being the composers of their folk songs, they really must have been a dim lot!!

The proof of the pudding is really in the eating - just examine the songs themselves - Lomax's Cantometrics team described them as "word intensive" - the emphasis of their construction being in the text of the song
This doesn't mean that the tune is unimportant - of course it is - it is the vehicle on which the song is carried

Our songs fall into two major categories - lyrical and narrative - the former tends to concentrate on description and emotion, while the latter tells the story
Ireland has a great deal for lyrical songs than Britian - the British tradition is largely a narrative one - the ballads intensively so
An over-concentraion on the tune is very much a revival thing - not even Irish singers, for all the reputation Ireland has for highly skilled instrumentation, has a history of accompanied singing, though the very lyrical Irish language singers did fo in for ornamentation (though not as much as today's singers do)

This attitude was rammed home to us way back when we spent an afternoon with two elderly brothers with a large repertoir of traditional songs between them

Theyd sung about a dozen for us, when one, after he'd sung a broken token song, siad, "Isn't that a great air?"
It was - the problem was that he'd used the same one for five other of his songs
THis was a family steeped in the local musical, song and storytelling traditions so it wasn't as if they were mindlessly repeating their songs
Walter ardon was noted for the rareness of his tunes, but at no time did they dominate his songs
He played the melodeon and the fiddle but at no time did he ever attempt to accompany them
It's all in the pudding
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 03:48 AM

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 01:46 AM

Peter Bellamy gave Kiplings poems an extra dimension when he set them to music. In my opinion. I may be a philistine but I must admit that poems do not do much for me on their own. Music let's me follow both story and rhythm much better. I do know other people appreciate the poet's skill just for what it is."
That was because Kipling wrote with rhythm in his head, but many good poems are not written like this and do not require music to enhance them,
I think many story tellers can hold an audience for longer not just because they are skilled but because music can sometimes distract from the story,keepin accompaniment simple or singing ballads unaccompanied can be more efective that over accompaniment or musical distraction. if you do not appreciate poetry you would" to some extent" answer the dictionary definition of a philistinea"person who is hostile or indifferent to culture and the arts."

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 03:21 AM

Traditional music in much of Europe, maybe excepting Scandinavia, is very much focused on the tuned. And in many aspects of British and Irish traditional music too. I do here think Jim's genre is very narrow.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:26 AM

The tune does of course help to remember the words ~ it provides a hook into them!

Many songs will have had a tune in mind no doubt on creation ~ "to the tune of" whatever was well know before ~ new tunes and words will have a PRS implication nowadays

Ray

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 01:46 AM

Peter Bellamy gave Kiplings poems an extra dimension when he set them to music. In my opinion. I may be a philistine but I must admit that poems do not do much for me on their own. Music let's me follow both story and rhythm much better. I do know other people appreciate the poet's skill just for what it is.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 09:27 PM

There must be lots of examples of well worn tunes being used for ballads.

You're listening - and you find yourself thinking = I know this tune, and last time I heard it , it was another song.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 08:30 PM

"A poem may not be 'dead' in itself, but the song minus the tune is dead as a song, surely?"
Agaain nobody is talking in the extremes - dead or not dead - it becomes a matter of emphasis
You can present a songs as a beautiful (or beautifully sung) music that happens to have words, as most opera has to be to those who don't understand the languages they are sung in
It is fairly common for a song to be 'over-accompanied or over-ornamented
Once that happens it becomes a piece of music with words, rather than a narrative
That was not what the old crowd did (not in Briain and Ireland anyway - Americam traditions developed differently
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 06:37 PM

Hmm.

A poem may not be 'dead' in itself, but the song minus the tune is dead as a song, surely? And a tune is not a song, just a tune.

And surely a performance of a song is a musical performance, however much Jim may disagree with the idea (as in the quotation from him above).

I get as frustrated as the next person when you can't make out the words, of course.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 06:19 PM

Have to agree with Jim here.

However GG I don't very often agree with Phillips Barry so I will indulge in a bit of coffin kicking. 'living organism, tune and text together' okay, but a poor analogy 'spirit and body'; which is the spirit and which is the body? If the tune is lost you're left with a poem, which isn't dead, it can be read or recited with pleasure. Also the tunes are frequently very beautiful things in their own right. Listened on the Radio today and caught 2 lots of classically arranged folksongs quite by chance, beautiful stuff!(IMO) I can and do frequently appreciate the tune of a folk song without knowing any of the words

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 03:17 PM

Ask any traditional singer what the most important - te=he story or the tune he will tell you - the story
Nobodt is suggesting that neither is important - just that the words take precedence
The tune is there to carry the words - too often nowadays that is not the case
That is the
only point being made
Simples
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 02:50 PM

Phillips Barry, quoted in A L Lloyd's 'Folk Song in England':

'The fieldworker knows that the ballad is a living organism, tune and text together, the spirit and the body. When the spirit is gone, what is left is a dead thing.'

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 08:00 AM

By the way I fundamentally disagree with this:

"By the way - regarding 'music making' - this tends to ignore the fact that as far as songs are concerned, we are being invited to share ideas and experiences, not watch musical performances"

I cannot believe that 'the folk' could not or did not distinguish poor singing from virtuosic singing, be that singing ornamented or relatively plain. Singing *is* making music.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Guessed
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 07:52 AM

Regarding the use of 'ours' as in 'our songs' (meaning 'the songs we collected' and, worse 'our travellers' (meaning 'the travellers we collected songs from').

Nobody's accusing Jim of behaving a la Kennedy.

'our recordings' seems tickety boo to me.

Decent shorthand sums up what you want to say or notes it down in a quicker form. Poor shorthand says something that you might not wish to say.

Given that people are arguing that words are so important in songs, lets use them with respect and thought when we can.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 07:19 AM

no, jim, there should be room for both, bring people in through community approach,rather than commercialising the music and at the same time have at least one festival run by EFDSS WHICH PROMOTES TRAD SONG AND DANCE, it does not have to be either or, or one or the other, what is wrong with having a festival that is solely about the roots of the music?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 05:12 AM

Yes Brian, but isn't that what we've lost, except in places like Harris?
All the older singers I've heard & learnt from, like Fred Jordan, Davie Stewart, Willy Scott & Jack Elliott had their roots DEEP in their community, and I agree that Ted Poole was one who tried very hard to make the music part of the community- the man was a hero to me, and a feature of the earlier days of Swindon club was that it was a cross-section of the community, especially age-wise.
It's hard to see the music or the other aspects of Ms Bunting's comments as relevant to the communities we live in today, very likely in Harris as well, but I think she hit the spot!
Some of us try to re-create community and I'm full of admiration for those who go out, like Ted, into the non-folk world & make the music relevant & not some kind of preservation society- that way lies oblivion.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 05:02 AM

Agree absolutely about Ted Poole's approach, Dick.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 04:01 AM

Ted, tried to widen his audience by inviting peopLE from the local community who had not heard folk before, so not relying commercialism to get people into the club, he also attracted people from the irish community who had had to move to england and who would have an empathy with trad music.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 03:55 AM

Brian, no but some of the [imo] best clubs [swindon for example], were community orientated and needed the dedication of people like Ted Poole a communist who believed and tried to make it the peoples music by including and welcoming the community.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 12:55 PM

"usual suspects."
The problem with that phrase Jom is it can be equally applied to the people who use it regularly
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 12:40 PM

"I could find little fault with that definition & just wonder if the 'folk revival' lives up to those standards?"

I think that is partly what the OP's original question might have been about, Jim, and it is a good quote. But from the outset the folk revival didn't exactly grow from within the community in the way that the culture of Harris presumably did. Though of course Harris is not urban Britain.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 12:29 PM

It's great that so much material is available on youtube- just hope that there's some way young folk can steer through the vast amount of dross to find some of the gems which ARE certainly there.
Still no substitute for the real thing of course, which we old fogies were lucky enough to experience mainly through the 'revival'

On the subject of the nature of tradition, I have my own views but don't want to provoke any acrimony from the usual suspects.

However I've just read a lovely travel/history book called 'Love of Country- A Hebridean Journey' by Madeleine Bunting.

In it, she writes of the time 20 years ago when a superquarry was to be inflicted on the lovely Isle of Harris. This was to be used for roadstone in the Leicester area!! A quarry on such a huge scale would never be allowed in England- the company's argument was that it was a very remote area & even quoted Sir Walter Scott's journal as evidence of its meagre cultural value, with high, sterile hills...
I have never seen anything more unpropitious' Scott wrote from a boat offshore - he never landed!

   The company's case provoked a discussion about the nature of culture and tradition and the objectors' campaign relied heavily on two Gaelic concepts to explain the islanders' understanding of the value of PLACE.   'Duthchas' expresses the collective right to the land of those who use it, and 'corachean' being the belief that people BELONG to the land.
In other words, the future for Harris should be based on the use (but not destruction) of the land- fishing, crofting & tourism, and the plans were defeated, and a later plan for 234 wind turbines for the Isle of Lewis failed for similar reasons.
Anyway, one resident summed it up WITH NO REFERENCE to music..

'Another reality prevails in Harris- language, culture, history- the whole of everyday life- are embedded in tradition, not consumption. Tradition should not be confused with the past; it could better be described as the meaning of the past, distilled into the present and cared for, with a view to handing it on to future'.

   I've never heard it better expressed and as part of a wider culture, I could find little fault with that definition & just wonder if the 'folk revival' lives up to those standards?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 11:47 AM

""At one time, young people shared their passion in smokey upstairs rooms of pubs. Now, its Youtube".
Possibly the saddest statement ever on Mudcat. Thankfully, I don't believe it."

better believe it... old folks...

Increasing broadband speeds and decreasing lag...
Only a few more years and we could be jamming in a real time
with groups of musical folks all over the world...

..though obviously in the UK our broadband is too slow and expensive,
and we are probably dragging a decade behind the rest of the 'developed' world....

How come some folks can skype relatives in Australia,
yet we can't get sufficient mobile signal/boadband speed to skype my mum's house less than 15 miles away...
because the UK has gone to shite...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 11:33 AM

Well, Vic, I have to thank you for mentioning the Stray Hens, for more reasons than you may realise. I could certainly have given them a bit of advice about those liner notes (oops!) but I do actually think they are trying to do something different with the song rather than merely a tepid cover of Steeleye, and I should point out that the bass player doesn't seem to be the regular lead singer.

Of even more interest to me is their version of 'Lay the Bent to the Bonny Broom', which they seem to have got from me, directly or most likely indirectly. How do I know? Well, I tweaked the text quite a bit when I arranged it, and all the tweaks are still there. I can also begin to imagine ways in which it might have reached a band in Australia...

Am I happy they used my version? Yes. Will I get royalties? Perish the thought! Do I like their treatment? Yes (though others may disagree). Ha! Us Old Fogeys aren't done yet!

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 11:23 AM

"At one time, young people shared their passion in smokey upstairs rooms of pubs. Now, its Youtube".
Possibly the saddest statement ever on Mudcat. Thankfully, I don't believe it.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 11:08 AM

Penultimate line should read:-
criticising for them for that.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 11:03 AM

Brian, I searched Youtube for 'The Handweaver and the Factory Maid' and came up with some interesting information about the song which I don't think that you did not know about the song. I certainly didn't and I don't think anyone else who contributes here will know that it is:-

A traditional song collected by Roud (Roud 17771) and performed by many greats- including by A. L. Lloyd, Steeleye Span, Martin Carthy, Mike Harding, and others.

This was the note on the song by a quintet called 'Stray Hens'. Clearly they do not perform in folk clubs or many of the old fogeys who contribute here (including self) would have put them right.

The performance didn't appeal to me but they are trying to perform that song in a way that relates to their own musical lives and no-one should be criticising for them.
However, if they are going to get anywhere they will need, on this evidence, to get a new lead singer.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 11:01 AM

Steeleye [and others] were fresh sounding at the start...
but later became too slick and MOR...

Sounding more like a bunch of souless jobbing pro session players...

The youtube vid I posted last night demonstrates that all genres of live music
are under attack,
with opportunities for young musicians to gain experience and pay there dues rapidly diminishing...

Too many young wannabes bands and singers competing for fewer remaining grass roots local live venues,
that have not yet been closed down...

Main culprits...???, property developers and inner city/town gentrification, noise complaints, prohibitive insurance costs, etc....

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 11:00 AM

Actually, the remarkable thing to me is that the UK folk revival that Lloyd and MacColl started in the 1950s is still going strong - if not as strongly as it was - 60 years later, where so many other musical movements - skiffle, prog-rock, punk, New Romantics, etc, have waxed and waned and fallen off the radar. So much so that a 17-year-old came up to me in Glossop Labour Club on election night this year and started talking about Cecil Sharp (he also turned out to be a really good singer, unaccompanied or otherwise!).

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 10:50 AM

"there's even a pigeon hole for Jim Carroll's narrow sub genre."
I think you'll fing you'd need an awfully big pigeon hole to fit in over a century's "sub-genre"
It becomes increasingly dishonest to describe the definition I am happy to be guided by as "Jim Carroll's" or a "sub-genre"
It is actually an internationally accepted way of describing 'The Songs of the People' which has prevailed since folk-song put in a general appearance and will remain the only one until somebody wins support for another one - no takers so far
'Horse Music' has always been a term of abuse so it doesn't count as a definition
By 1954 the tradition was dead in the water, so I suggest that those who keep mentioning "54" stop using it as a crutch
The only people who seem to find it in anyway useful are those who wish to use it for target practice
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 10:40 AM

I agree, 'Some bloke', there is a lot of terrific music being made right now by young artists, especially on the instrumental side (I still tend to prefer singers of the older generation though).

However, though I use Youtube both for discovery and self-promotion, but it's no substitute for live music. Young people may not want to sit in folk clubs these days, but they do still want to get out there and share music and song in the flesh.

I'd have said that, since Cecil Sharp collected a pile of tunes and became well-acquainted with the anglo concertina for Headington Morris, I doubt if he'd have been at all surprised or discomforted to hear a melodeon accompanying morris dancing.

Lastly, I loved Steeleye Span's electric arrangement of 'The Handweaver and the Factory Maid' when it came out 45 years ago, but nowadays folk-rock itself is pretty old hat and I'd rather hear something different done with the song. Maybe even an unaccompanied version.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 10:08 AM

Folk goes from strength to strength. It is an exciting time to hear wonderful interpretation of traditional words and tunes.

At one time, young people shared their passion in smokey upstairs rooms of pubs. Now, its Youtube.

The art however remains as ever; every generation adds to the evolving tradition with its own styles. As I keep saying, Cecil Sharpe would have been as bemused by hearing melodeons accompanying Morris as some grumpy old men on here react to electric guitars and looper pedals.

There are many interpretations of the word folk, from modern songwriters putting their lives, hopes and aspirations to paper, all the way back to Child ballads and far beyond, er.. putting their lives, hopes and aspirations to either paper (broadsides) or oral tradition (changes every month, never mind generation.)

Oh, and somewhere along the way, there's even a pigeon hole for Jim Carroll's narrow sub genre.

Forty years ago, if I pick on a song, say, Handweaver and factory maid, I got an appreciative round of applause for singing it unaccompanied. Now, most people prefer to hear it with guitar. That's the beauty of folk. It didn't grind to a halt in 1954. It evolves. That's what it is all about for crying out loud.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 10:05 AM

"Then you need to make yourself clear, "
I did Vic - I actually put the quote I was responding to at the top of my posting
Perhaps you should read what is posted with more care
I won't bother asking for an apology - mistakes happen
Jim