Labour - the party of Remain

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 03:55 AM

'Northern' Ireland is a hangover of colonial times and has continued to exist only because of the deliberate creation of an imbalanced sectarian state.
It was not created in order to keep peace between the two communities; on the contrary, it was structured for Britain's benefit to keep the two sides at each other's throat and leave the state in 'safe' the hands of a dominant Protestant majority
The North's history is one of sectarian conflict - inor for re-unification, which was long put on the back-burner, but for Civil Rights - that never changed and it burst into flames in the late 1960s with the Civil Rights Marches being broken up by stone-throwing Unionists assisted by the RUC and eventually, the British Army.

That Northern Ireland should be "given a Referendum' is horribly colonial and patronising, I'm afraid
Ireland should never have been divided in the first place - even the 'Free Staters' agreed to it happening only on the basis that it was a temporary measure - the only reason it remained divided is that Britain backed an aggressively sectarian section of the Northern Ireland Establishment to keep it so.
The 'ordinary' people would almost certainly have been happy to see re-unification long ago - it would have been far more convenient for their daily lives to have done so.

Dividing Ireland has always been a perfect example of the old tactic of divide and rule - the secret lies in the name - Northern IRELAND. - the people of the North are as Irish as those of the South
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 08:23 AM

"The backstop exists in the Leave agreement. I wish it didn't."

Your wish is my command. There is no leave agreement. It has fallen off its perch and gone to join the choir invisible. It is an ex-leave agreement. In fact, it was never an agreement at all. An agreement needs both sides to sit down and sign on the dotted line. It never happened. So if the leave agreement doesn't exist, and the backstop "existed in it", the backstop doesn't exist either. And the groovy thing about the backstop is that it probably would never come into play even if we did leave with a deal. We'd have time to settle our trading arrangements with the EU without the need for it. But you lot don't want that. The Tory hardliners have even said that they won't vote for a deal even without a backstop in it. As for me, I want revocation. That's the only thing that can ever be of any use to this country, to Ireland and to the EU. You lot, by saying you won't accept a backstop, are in effect saying that you don't want a deal. No backstop means, one hundred percent, no deal, a dead cert. But you're not honest enough to come out and say it.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 09:04 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: So if the leave agreement doesn't exist, and the backstop "existed in it", the backstop doesn't exist either.

In the same paragraph;

Steve Shaw wrote: You lot, by saying you won't accept a backstop, are in effect saying that you don't want a deal. No backstop means, one hundred percent, no deal, a dead cert.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 09:07 AM

If the first of your two statements is correct, surely your second is nonsense.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 09:34 AM

The nutcase tory hard right are dreaming that Ireland will kick out Leo
and decide to leave the EU
to solve their probelm...


Evidence for their cunning stupidity..


Tory & aligned international right wing internet propagandists
have started attacking Leo and pushing for Ireland to leave the EU...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 10:02 AM

Don't be so incredibly obtuse, Stanron, even for you. The backstop was a proposal that was in May's deal, which is now dead. Your man swears he wants a deal (he's a liar, but hey), but insists that a backstop can't be part of it. Now if there's anything there you still don't get, don't bother letting me know.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 10:41 AM

BRITAIN'S PROFOUND KNOWLEGE OF IRELAND
THe "utter nonsense" comes from those who promise there will be no border while at the same time demand that the backstop must go - perhaps Stanton can square that particular circle - or not !!


All this is a severe case of Britain's history of reneging on promises coming back to bite their bum - the Irish are in the forefront of understanding that Britain is not to be trusted
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 11:08 AM

We definitely have a case of different language being used here. I can fully understand what Steve is saying. There is no backstop. This is a fact. The hard line brexiteers don't want a backstop. This is also a fact. The two things are completely compatible. It is simply like saying there are no flying purple people eaters and most of us don't want them to exist.

I cannot understand what problem you have with that, Stanron. Quite possibly my fault. Would you care to explain how the first statement makes a nonsense of the second.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 11:28 AM

..and also why should the fate of the rest of the entire UK
depend on such utterly absurd self indulgent petty politics
of a few stubborn obsessed fanatics...

N. Ireland - most* of us don't care,
and are sick of the decades of problems it's caused and perpetuated...


[* note to Nigel and other narrow minded statistics pedants..
'most'.. that's my personal opinion based on my own edumacated guess...]

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 11:29 AM

Well I care about all the people there.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 11:47 AM

Steve - that's nice of you..

But surely as humanists and internationalists,
our default setting is to care about all the people all over the planet...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 03:23 PM

Some complete fruitcake on radio 4, could have been John Humphries, asked some Irish representative why Ireland didn't leave the EU and unite with the UK!!! Talk about deranged. Why would they shackle themselves to a country about to jump off a cliff???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 03:34 PM

David - I refuse to give links or name a prime tory arsehole propagandist on youtube,
but can't stop anyone searching for yesterday's video,
and the viewer's comments,
on why Ireland must leave the EU to help out Boris...

His videos usually appeal to the most hostile right wing nutters...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 03:51 PM

ps.. my guess is yesterday was organised for various right wing 'influencers'
to hit the internet with co-ordinated propaganda
re: Leo must go / Ireland must leave...

Hands up who thinks some American money might be backing them...???

Hands up for Putin...???

Hands and feet up for both, and a variety of other global anti EU agencies...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 02:56 AM

David C - I didn't listen to the radio over the last few days, so can't say who made the remark. But I can confirm John Humphries asked exactly that question around two years ago.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 03:51 AM

Yes it wasn't recent DMcG, so its the same incident I am remembering. Could have been two years ago, time flies.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM

a href="https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jun/30/nazanin-zaghari-ratcliffe-richard-ratcliffe-boris-johnson-gaffes">A FORGOTTEN VICTIM OF OUR PRIME MINISTER'S STUPIDITY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 04:44 AM

Why anyone would quote the opinion of a verified liar and racist, let alone hero worship him, is beyond me. That they are allowed to get away with it over and over again is ridiculous. That people react to it rather than let the moderation team deal with it is what gets the threads closed.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 04:56 AM

Hansard records what is said in Parliament. No more, no less. So if the person speaking is biased - which of course they all are, all the time - it records that biased statement.

I frequently recommend referencing Hansard, but not because any individual passage is unbiased, but because that eliminates additional biases introduced during reporting.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 05:25 AM

VERIFIED RECORD RATHER THAN UNPROVEN ACCUSATION
RACISM ON A GRAND SCALE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 05:38 AM

Johnson's infamous lies

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 05:58 AM

HOW BRITAIN'S ALLIES SEE OUR PRIME MINISTER

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 08:09 AM

This gets more and more mindless and less and less like a discussion as he drags it on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:22 AM

Iains - gotcha...!!!!!

Me.. 3 days ago...

"punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:12 PM

Morning after Brecon.. tory majority down to 1...

Predictably tory propagandists will be ramping up the attack on Labour in response...

But, will do or die Boris be reading up on harakiri...???"

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Mossback
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:34 AM

The cabinet minister in charge of negotiating a new US trade deal met with a series of rightwing American thinktanks to discuss deregulation and the benefits of “Reaganomics”, new documents have revealed.

Liz Truss, the international trade secretary, had a number of meetings with libertarian groups that have championed parts of Donald Trump’s deregulatory agenda and tax cuts.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/04/liz-truss-trade-deal-food-safety-deregulation

REAGANOMICS??? Guess she's unaware that Reaganomics was a complete bogus cluster-fuck, eh?

Good to know ALL the idiots aren't in the U.S.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:39 AM

"Good to know ALL the idiots aren't in the U.S."
As we can see from our own resident Tommy Robinson/Trumpite - they tend to take their inspiration from across the pond
There's little sign of our great and good condemning Trupmp's open racism or his degeneracy, or his warmongering
Their heads are too far up The Don's arse to get around to such trivial issues as that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:56 AM

Bristol UK...

A city with a vibrant sense of political humour expressed in street art...


kiss



double kiss

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 10:32 AM

Thatcher's legacy
"Unsurprisingly, when Pinochet's most prominent defender, Margaret Thatcher came to office in 1979, diplomatic relations were soon restored and arms sales resumed. Declassified papers reveal that, by June 1982, her government had sold the dictatorship: two warships, 60 blowpipe missiles, 10 Hunter Hawker bomber planes, naval pyrotechnics, communications equipment, gun sights, machine guns and ammunition. A unique attempt at a British "ethical foreign policy" had ended."
IN FULL
THATCHER'S TAKE ON DEMOCRACY

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 10:42 AM

The way I look at it...

Life for me and mine should be a fair bit less shit under a Labour Govt...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 12:26 PM

I don't think bozza would be sticking his tongue in Trump's mouth, PFR. It is too firmly up his arse.

I like the second one though. What is there not to like about naked painted ladies snogging? :-)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 12:37 PM

"It is too firmly up his arse."
Maabe they're both into Coprophilia
WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME IN THE SLIGHTEST
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 12:59 PM

THIS JUST ABOUT TICKS ALL THE BOXES
Never doubted it fo a minute
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 01:46 PM

From: Mossback
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:34 AM
. . . large snip removed . . .
Good to know ALL the idiots aren't in the U.S.


Not true. There are clearly some idiots in the United States, but it would be true to say that "not all the idiots are in the US".

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 01:50 PM

On FFS..

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 03:14 PM

Un autocorrect version...

...Oh, FFS

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:41 PM

A mod with an OCD tidying urge...!!!???

WE also lost intelligent [if I dare say so myself...] posts very pertinent to the subject matter...

It appears even part Jews aren't allowed to mention the word "Jew"..
Perhaps I'm not sufficiently Jewish for my views on Antisemitism & the Labour Party to qualify as acceptable...???

So either banish Iains, or at least stop deleting his posts that elicit
serious well considered responses;
which then also get deleted as collateral damage...

This is a crucially British intererst thread which does not require or benefit from
too heavy-handed interference by American mods...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 02:41 AM

" but it would be true to say that "not all the idiots are in the US"."
Nah - but most of our worst ones are safely tucked away in Westminster and won't mix with the likes of us
Much of the sickness of our society emanates from their desire to keep things like that - they're the bastards who set people against each other
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 04:58 AM

Talking of idiots in Westminster - and I definitely reject the 'safely' comment - here is the latest demonstration they haven't a clue that I have come across:

Most firms that export only to the EU do not have the paperwork they need to carry on their business after a no-deal Brexit, government figures suggest.

The Liberal Democrats said the statistics showed that no deal, which increasingly seems to be the outcome ministers think is most likely, would be a “wholly irresponsible political choice”.

But their analysis was disputed by the government, which claimed that, even though only a minority of firms have already acquired the right documentation, these are the firms responsible for the bulk of exports to the EU.
It is hard to know where to start with that government response. So I will just stick to pointing out that bulk of exports and significance of an export are different things. Being unable to import or export a key security item may have effects well beyond a shortage of Mars bars (to use Boris's example.)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 10:20 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 02:49 PM

...
Probably - if we take the advice of the Mods and "ignore the troll"
...


I said I would remind you, Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 10:40 AM

Trying to get back to topic, or at Brexit: I have been reading the fixed term Parliamenr Act (gripping stuff, I assure you) and while after a no confidence vote 14 days must elapse before a general election is automatically triggered, there seems no reason why Corbyn couldn't call a no-confidence vote in the morning, then toddle off to the palace in the afternoon with pockets stuffed with letters from the SNP, LibDem, Plaid Cymrun and others saying they have agreed to form an interim national unity government to address Brexit then hold a general election. There is no need for 14 days to elapse and I am sure the Speaker would not allow Boris to hold that up by preventing a vote of confidence in the unity government.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 11:03 AM

WE Brits need this discussion right now

True. What we do not need is incessant right-wing propaganda that has no purpose but to destabilise the discussion. This will, quite rightly, get removed. If comments pertaining to the right-wing propaganda is also removed then that is simply collateral damage. You cannot expect the moderators to differentiate between good and bad responses to trolling. Their job is unpaid, unappreciated and hard enough as it is. To help them to clean up the shit, we should not be smearing it about first.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 11:35 AM

DtG - I don't want to argue with you, you're one of the good guys..
But you're repeating something I politely disagreed with every other time...

I don't expect anything of mods,
but am at liberty to request they consider circumstances of a specific thread,
and that they delete sparingly with due consideration and respect
for the time and effort wasted by Jim and others
in their fight back against the bad guys...

I don't accept that collateral damage is justified as an automatic first response
in dealing with Iains...
It should be a more considered last last resort.

Mods can be more reasonable and restrained if they want to...

Ocassionally critisising their more zero tolerance methods, is by no means an attack on our hard worked mods...

Mods aren't infallible, and there was a time a decade ago during the 'rogue mod war'
when at least one of them seemed to be abusing the power...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 11:37 AM

Trying to get back to topic, or at Brexit: I have been reading the fixed term Parliament Act (gripping stuff, I assure you) and while after a no confidence vote 14 days must elapse before a general election is automatically triggered, there seems no reason why Corbyn couldn't call a no-confidence vote in the morning, then toddle off to the palace in the afternoon with pockets stuffed with letters from the SNP
The only thing stopping that would be that Boris would still be the Queen's Prime Minister. The automatic election is only triggered after 14 days as the existing Prime Minister (still Boris) has 14 days to try to bring together a government in which Parliament can have confidence.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 12:05 PM

The automatic election is only triggered after 14 days as the existing Prime Minister (still Boris) has 14 days to try to bring together a government in which Parliament can have confidence.

Not quite. The act very clearly says he has up to 14 days, not that he has 14 days. In the meantime others groups can propose new governments. It is not solely in the remit of the Prime Minister. As I read it.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 12:51 PM

Let me clarify the position. Iains's propaganda is being removed as it should be. If no one responds to it, nothing else will get deleted. I am more than happy for him to continue posting as long as the posts are his own work, are civil and are not just repititions of a mindless right-wing propaganda machine. By all means respond to messages that are his rather than those of the criminal blogger or the fascist ministry of misinformation. Just don't respond to the mindless tripe that 95% of his posts comprise of.

Surely it must be worth a try?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 12:53 PM

DtG - uncanny... you got your answer in a minute before I posted the question...!!!!!

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 12:55 PM

My ESP kicked in :-)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:06 PM

" I'm not a fan of 'safe spaces' by banning members, "
And I'm not a fab of people using this forum as a platform for extremism
It might be different if he engaged in discussion but he ignores what is being said and just posts blogs, mainly by a neo Nazi
Whenever he is seriously challenged he resorts to racist insulting as he just has
I wouldn't be unhappy to allow him to stay as an example of what he represents - he is a destructive troll who refuses to participate in this forum other than to use it
I only wish someone like Nigel would take part - he is far more intelligent and ready to argue - when he hangs around long enough
What Iains is doing is just downright effortless, thoughtless and destructive
Any moron can find a reliable blogger to mindlessly cut 'n paste from
Is that really why we're here ?
"Iains's propaganda is being removed"
Only when it is responded to - if nobody responded to it it would remain as a permanent extremist platform
Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:11 PM

Only when it is responded to

Not true, Jim. It is being deleted full stop. Don't respond in the thread. If you wish to lodge a complaint, send one of the mods a PM.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:13 PM

"If you wish to lodge a complaint, send one of the mods a PM."
Last time I did I got a mouthful of abuse and was told we were all as bad as one another
Jim