BS: UK General election December 12 2019

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 02:26 PM

”Doesn't it give you just a moment's thought about your right to be so nasty to people who have been proved right?”

And I’ve told you numerous times that the really nasty-bastards are the Union-Jack-boxers-wearing Brexit-Bullies who make death-threats against Remainers. I’ve been told, on a number of occasions, that I’m a ‘Traitor who should be arrested, marched out, and shot at dawn for treason’, and ‘We know how to find you’, and I’ve seen it hurled around on social media many times more. I’ve never heard or seen a Remainer make that kind of threat against a Leaver. Being told you deserve death, and that those threatening you know where to find you is in a completely different order of magnitude to being told you’re a fuckwit.

So for fuck’s sake, will you stop playing the victim. There are just as many nasty-fuckers amongst the Leavers, perhaps more, than there are amongst Remainers - you only have to read some of the Leavers’ posts on this forum to see that’s true. The nastiest fucker on this, and other, similar threads is a Leaver.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:07 PM

I know that if a statistical study is carried out on the insults posted on this forum concerning brexit the overwhelming majority come from the left. The problem is that you are so used to giving out insults and abuse you are no longer aware of it. Perhaps a little self reflection is in order. Your stock reply is to label those with a different opinion racist or troll, followed by a string of abuse.
Your self righteous posturing on this forum ever since the referendum has been clearly shown to be constructed on nothing but delusion. Your absolute certainty has been shown to be nothing but wishful thinking.
You were wrong on your predictions
You are wrong on who is responsible for insults.Just look at your posts over the last 24 hours.
You boyos backed a loser.
You lost the referendum
Youlost the vote for article 50
you lost the vote in the 2016 election
you lost the vote in the 2019 election.

Stop whining and try to act like adults. By every metric known to man you lot of leftards are losers. Bleating is not going to change that fact one iota. Many tried to tell you that you were inhabiting a bubble of delusion but you would not accept it.
Well the fickle finger of fate f**ked you all over beautifully and from your behaviour on this forum I would say it was richly deserved.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:22 PM

Nigel I am also a believer in doing our own work and writing.

But seriously if you start insisting we footnote everything I will consider you a crank and not a linear purist. So give us a break and let people live and learn by as many different ways that work for us as possible- hmm my arm just fell asleep, that means ts going to be up all night.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:26 PM

well I think I'm talking to myself.. You don't get it. You're angry and dismissive of people like Iains and myself.

Your trust has been abused big time. The revelations coming out today about what's been going on expose Momentum as a body completely disinterested in the fate of the poor people of England. Their own party was explaining to them what was going on on the doorsteps two years ago - and they gave not a shit. THey wanted control of the party - even if it meant total electoral failure.

After eight years of austerity and tory party wrangling, they would have pissed rings round the tories without Corbyn and Momentum. Two years later, people had it sussed that Corbyn was part of the problem - not the solution.
Not the people on this forum - but most people.

And Iains I'm sorry I don't agree with you - no one richly deserves being pissed about and misled. No one's won.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:47 PM

Well why did a very low key boring Corbyn let it happen?
Is it possible momentum had an oppositional agenda?

Its clear there will be hard feelings forever but I also see a resignation of labour to the election - BUT NOT SURRENDER!


Iains perhaps I do pick on you for being corporate trained and brain washed.
I thought I only ad hom'ed Steve, and that, only in jest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:49 PM

The "no-one won" opinion
is exactly how I felt,
in the USA,
on November 2016.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:50 PM

You're angry and dismissive of people like Iains and myself.

I'm not at all angry, Al. I have never been dismissive and I totaly.ignore anything from Iains. I must say that I am surprised that you would associate yourself with him.

Still, every man to his own.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:56 PM

Returning to my comment

The quote I heard yesterday (Friday) morning on NPR was from Hugo Gurdon of The Washington Post: Here it is from NPR's web site:

"CORNISH: Boris Johnson and the Tories win big. Labour had its worst defeat since 1935. Hugo, how did he do it?

GURDON: He did it with a very simple message - get Brexit done. But I think that this election was about more than Brexit. Boris Johnson is a very charismatic fellow. I worked with him every day for about a year at The Daily Telegraph when we were journalists together. He's got a lot of charm. He's not always honest, but he's nevertheless attractive. He was opposing a terrible leader, Jeremy Corbyn of the Labour Party, who's essentially an unreconstructed Marxist who's dragged the party so far to the left that he would - that he's made it unpalatable to Labour voters, not just those Labour voters - and there are lots of them who - in the north who are Brexit voters, but also people who are just not going along with the left wing project that he wants."

This is me, robo, again: Whether or not Mr. Corbyn fits the technical bill as a "unreconstructed Marxist" is not the point. The point is perception. And the perception of Mr. Corbyn has not been good in many quarters and individual stories that have made it into Mudcat. I'm going to compare it to the perception of Hilary Clinton in the States. Whether accurate or not, stories have accumulated and the remains of those stories have left perceptions, like a bad taste, in various memories. May be fair, probably isn't.

Anyhow, that's where the quote came from. As I wrote above, I don't have the long history required for a personal judgment on my own experience. But it is clear that there are those in this thread who DO have long personal experience. And they are not united. They are on both sides of that quote.

I am learning from both sides and I am enjoying this thread because it is so far pretty partisan but not too personal.

I believe in Democracy with all my heart. But it ain't pretty. It ain't supposed to be pretty. Pretty is actually a warning sign that someone's got too much control over the covering paint!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:08 PM

"You're angry and dismissive of people like Iains and myself."

I sometimes agree and sometimes disagree with you, Al, and on occasion your negativity is astounding, but at least you are a responsive and challenging contributor. But I'm appalled at the above alignment with Iains you've just made. Please read his last post again, carefully, and wonder at the whining hypocrisy and sheer dissembling over who insults who around here. If you like, I'll copy his post and underline the plethora of gratuitous insults, all uncalled for, in just a few lines of one post. I doubt that you need me to do that. Earlier today he insinuated that I was posting drunk (over a post I'd made stone-cold sober), and, when I took exception, he accused me of posting with a hangover. So yes, he's well worth dismissing. Not worth getting angry about, because it's hard to get angry with someone who routinely and manifestly demonstrates mental issues. Of course, if you really wish to be tarred with the same brush that's up to you. At the moment I don't see things that way and I look forward to engaging with you in a way that I don't want to with the likes of him.

And I disagree with you about Corbyn. Considering the terrible polls pre-the 2017 election, he at least put a basket-case party back on the map. This time, the big guns had learned the lesson and were out to get him. Four-fifths of the tabloids conspired viciously to demonise him, and it worked. And, just for once, the BBC played a major part in briefing consistently against him. Not saying that he did things right. He absolutely didn't, but neither did Johnson, but HE got the hale-fellow-well-met bye. Barring Jeremy's stance on brexit, which was grown-up but which gave the tabloids gleeful open season on him, he did things the same way as he did in 2017. Anyway, that's what I think, and I've respectfully taken you on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:19 PM

Cross-posted with Dave there (I'm a slow typist and I review like buggery).

You are right about perceptions, Robo. But you have to consider who it is that manipulates the agenda and who twists and spins the facts in order to manipulate those perceptions. The overriding victory of this campaign belongs to the right, who got almost all the media on board for the purpose of demonising Corbyn. As a result, a decent and fair future agenda was lost and Corbyn and his allies will have to go. I'm a big supporter, and it grieves me to say that, but the mass media have comprehensively won the fight to bamboozle a politically-illiterate electorate (you should have seen the incessant BBC cheap-telly vox pops we've endured for six weeks...)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:17 PM

Your UK tabloids are like our AM radio stations owned by conservative 'Clear Channel'. The Robo comparisons to US politics is accurate.

The old saw that perception is reality (even when its a lie) does work in th short run, and by then its too late.

There is a big difference between Boris and Donald. Boris will not severely punish the UK.
Bannon has said "Because of the impeachment proceedings, Donald Trump will punish America in ways you have never seen before."

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:52 PM

This from a spoof site but it rings true to anyone who has been following the thrust and parry here:

"Prime Minister Boris Johnson exceeded all expectations in Thursday’s U.K. general election, and his landslide victory makes the U.K. all but certain to exit the European Union early next year.

Labour spokesmen said that they are “pretty sure” they lost so many seats because, “they didn’t call enough people ‘racist’.”

Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the main opposition Labour Party, said, “We clearly didn’t call enough people racist during this campaign. We’re going to have to step up our game next election and call people racist 50 percent more.”

Corbyn announced he would not be heading another election campaign after Thursday’s crushing defeat.

Some Labour supporters are already getting a jump on the next election, calling people old racists right out of the gate:

kyleukeeaton @kylelukeeaton

    Waking up to hear #ConservativeParty have won is like waking up at Christmas and getting coal, brilliant for old people and people who wanted #Brexit but not so good for people who didnt want a racist, disgusting values with no plan leader in boris,
    2:04 AM - Dec 13, 2019
    Twitter Ads info and privacy

See kylelukeeaton's other Tweets

Paul Mason?
@paulmasonnews

BBC exit poll predicts Tories to take 70+ seats. If so - a victory of the old over the young, racists over people of colour, selfishness over the planet. Scotland will leave UK. However it does not feel right compared to on-the-ground.
11.7K
5:06 PM - Dec 12, 2019

https://genesiustimes.com/labour-pretty-sure-they-lost-because-they-didnt-call-enough-people-racist/?sfns=mo&fbclid=IwAR0UKCeMNkSxm7ti6-n7x09hh2AAAv3Sje4pVLKndSNFbFef5zeNmvc8Qto

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 06:41 PM

Well, boobs, it depends on which thrust and parry you choose to follow. The thrust and parry you chose to follow, from your massive distance, was a prime example of your resort to confirmation bias (which we all know you fervently seek as soon as the buzzword "Corbyn" is uttered). You are a tabloid victim, all the worse because you're trying to do it from a distance and because you're aching to be selective.

I've put that kindly. To put it less kindly, you understand nothing about anything. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 07:34 PM

I thought Backwoodsman's little summation copy/paste was pretty good except it went unattributed. I'd like to know who wrote it and be able to see other stuff they've put over their byline.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 08:00 PM

robomatic- me too!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:07 AM

"I thought Backwoodsman's little summation copy/paste was pretty good except it went unattributed. I'd like to know who wrote it and be able to see other stuff they've put over their byline."

I didn't give attribution because it was a social media post and the author has not given express permission for his/her identity to be shared, other than amongst a specific closed group of individuals. However, because the piece resonated with me - and especially because I found it very amusing in an ironic kind of way - I felt the thoughts expressed were worth sharing here, albeit anonymously. But, as a Remain-voter who has witnessed a great deal of abuse, including numerous examples of death-threats, from Brexiteers on social media, I have no intention of betraying a confidence and risking exposing the author to similar abuse.

So accept it for what it is, or don't, but it's all you're getting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 07:52 AM

Anyway, now normal service has been restored, there’s a very good opinion piece by Andrew Rawnsley in today’s Guardian, titled “We will now find out what a triumphant Boris Johnson really wants and believes”.

I’ve tried to link to the piece but I keep getting a 404 error - perhaps some kind soul more internet-literate than me could make the link work and post it please?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:17 AM

There you go

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:25 AM


I've put that kindly. To put it less kindly, you understand nothing about anything. Cheers.

Not worth getting angry about, because it's hard to get angry with someone who routinely and manifestly demonstrates mental issues.

That from the pompous prig, the prosecco kid, that claims to insult no one!

Marr was stumbling a bit today - must be the antidepressants kicking in!

I totaly.ignore anything from Iains.
Earlier today he insinuated that I was posting drunk (over a post I'd made stone-cold sober), and, when I took exception, he accused me of posting with a hangover

I do like consistency!
A toon for a twat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA0NQYtwDw4

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:47 AM

Thanks Dave - could you PM me how you did it, and what I’m missing please?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 10:26 AM

Right then.. I vote Labour - but I'm not a fan of the Labour party...

So they have let's say 2 to 3 years to rediscover their traditional working class roots,
and claim the party back from it's middle class academic/identity politics hijackers...

At least the Northern disaster might serve to give the Labour party
the wake up call it's needed this last few years...???

At the moment it basically seems dominated by the culture and obsessions
of the more zealot extremes of the National Union of Students...

That's the public perception, obviously hyped up by right wing media and internet bigotry,
but to a significant extent based on reality...

Labour now has more than enough evidence that it's old traditional voter base
feel their party has been taken over by intolerant puritanical ideologue cuckoos
who dislike and look down on the working class....

If my dad - a factory machine operative and shop steward - was still alive,
I dread to think how even he might now feel despondent enough with his party
to punish them by voting tory...!!!???

[.. and if my extended family back on the council estate voted at all,
I daren't ask which party...]

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 10:49 AM

My Dad was a trade unionist that hated both communism and facsism, PFR. Like him, I think extremes of any kind are very dangerous. I don't believe for one minute that the current Tory party are fascists any more than I believe Corbyn's Labour party are communists. But there are extreme factions on both sides that need to be reigned in. While the ERG and Brexit party were so influential with the Tories, Labour needed their own extremes to respond. My sincere hope is that the Tories will now moderate their recent excesses and take notice of their new working class supporters. I am not hopeful though as BoJo has said he will do just that. His track record for the truth leaves a lot to be desired:-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 11:36 AM

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:26 PM

well I think I'm talking to myself.. You don't get it. You're angry and dismissive of people like Iains and myself.

Your trust has been abused big time.

We never really got to bottom of this did we, Al? You are very obviously not talking to yourself but someone quite specific. Just who is this mysterious "you" that doesn't get it, gets angry and dismissive of you and who's trust has been abused?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:25 PM

I've done two long considered replies, Dave - but forgot to save.

Then its come up 'service not available'

Sorry but I don't feel like trying a third time.

computer says no! arrrgh.....!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:26 PM

Anyway I was probably talking bollocks as usual....

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:32 PM

Fairy nuff.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:43 PM

‘Long, considered’ posts are best typed in Word and saved, then copied and pasted into a Mudcat post. Then, if the ‘Cat falls over mid-post, you’ve still got your work in Word, and it’s a simple matter to repeat the c&p when Mudcat’s up and running again.

IMHO, of course. YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:48 PM

Al - you've always been one of the mudcatters I've most liked..
but recently something's got to you and soured your opinions...???

It's almost like your mudcat account has been hijacked...

But what you have been saying and getting upset about,
mirrors the general malaise amongst traditional working class labour voters,
which has lead to the party's severest electorial arse kicking...

Over the last few years I've been aware of the growing mass disaffection with labour,
becoming more and more hostile,
as ukip and tommy robinson supporters have exploited the problems
to recruit unhappy labour voters to their far right cause...
Which the tories have now obviously reaped the benefit of...

When I've engaged with folks on the internet,
my message has been; yes, labour is going off track,
but it would be better to stay and fight to bring the party back to it's working class roots,
than buggering off and becoming useful idiots for the far right...
Clearly, my attempts fell on deaf eyes and minds...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:50 PM

BWM - yes absolutely the right advice, which I also tell folks..

Sadly that don't stop me being a clot and typing in the mudcat message box... duh...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:06 PM

Just keep your post short and then it doesn't matter if you lose it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:12 PM

Big Al Whittle wrote: Then its come up 'service not available'

If your browser has a 'Back' button, click on that and you should get your post back. It's on the top left on my screen, an arrow pointing to the left.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 02:01 PM

Pfr no one benefits from the labour party collapse, Democracy is best served by a credible opposition party. A viable opposition tempers extremism, regardless of who is in the majority. For that to happen Labour needs to be a broad church - that is not the reality today.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 02:25 PM

Iains - nice to see you back out of attack mode...

yes.. I've never been a member of any political party,
but Labour values are more consistent with my own..

Values I'd see as universal to humanity,
not just the monopoly of a specific political party...

If Boris now has the power to keep the far right toffs and USA corporations at bay,
we'd hope his opportunism and pragmatism might lead him
to adopting moderate economic, employment, and social welfare policies
more in accord with the needs of his new working class voters...???

It'll be a tough ask of him, and not something we can expect
with too much optimism...??????

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 02:38 PM

as a labour party member and union rep in workington constituency i'm always very interested in the views of people who have nothing but the best interests of the labour party at heart to give us advice on where we should go now. locally we have decided to abstain from the decisions on who should be the next leader, who should form the national executive and what our policy priorities should be. we have submitted a motion for the party to consider that we allow these decisions to be taken for us by the editorial board of the daily mail. please, if you have the time. forelock-tuggingly yours, dave spart and a few others.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 02:40 PM

PFR: Examples of Mudcat account hacking exists even into the PM messages section where I received 3 Private Message accusations of dire proportions and each were totally changed in a matter of hours.

Perhaps you feel funny drawing attention to allegations you can not prove. I know I did. Trust and honesty are relegated to the past especially when the future of news itself can be faked in both audio and video.

It looks as if creating uncertainty is a weapon in itself, but to what ends?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 03:17 PM

Pete - I should have joined Labour and been an activist,
but there's something wrong with my personality that makes me asocial,
and a reclusive outsider..

However, it keeps me relatively objective as an observer...

Many of my best old mates are high up in local Labour party organization,
so I expect some interesting conversations to come...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 04:27 PM

i tried that and it didn't come back.

the substance of what i was aying was that if Boris is as bad as you say. You've got to be pretty shit to lose to him. And instead of looking inwardly you're blaming The daily Fucking mail - which I'm willing to bet none of the disaffected Labour voters woud be seen dead reading.

let's try that bit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 04:34 PM

Okay next point - this phenomenon is mirrored over the pond.

Tr8ump is a wanker, everyone agrees. (cept possibly Iains)

However the democrats reek of New England smart arsiness (plus anasty shot of tamany hall/whitewater corruption) to the midwest in the same way the Hampstead socialists do to Northern labour Voters.

And what do the democrats do - of course just like their Brit mirror image. they blame it on racism, ignorance, etc.

oh life's so unfair!! When we really are nice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 04:35 PM

Al - disaffected Labour voters have been reading, viewing videos, and agreeing
with relentless blatant far right internet propaganda for some years now...

I know this as fact as I join in with them frequently to stay aware and informed...
and attempt a trickle of resistance to see how they respond...

WE now have our answer...

Who needs the Mail...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 04:46 PM

Point Three

Poor jeremy has been demonised.
not half as much as Leave people on the FB. And don't tell me that the saintly JC wasn't aware of the stream of abuse his momentum gang were spewing out over Facebook at traditional Labour voters.

Two tradtional Labour ladies well into their 70's have been called Fascist Tory bitches this week that I know. Mark Steel called us all fuckwits. I suppose it makes a change from Brexshitters. Such a hoot calling us oiks silly names.

Now how about voting for JC....? Tommy Robinson is fuck all to do with anything. they're pondlife - and frankly the Momentum gang on FB make more convincing brownshirts than that shit for brains gang.

he's not THAT bloody out of touch, or if he is he should be a trappist monk not PM.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 05:33 PM

You are back to referring to the mysterious "you" again, Al. Are you going to continue hiding just who you are referring to? Stop trying to insinuate things about people and backing off when confronted about it. If you want to accuse someone of something at least have the courage to name them.

As to "nasty" comments on Facebook, I refer you back to Backwoodsman's points earlier. How many times have you been told you are a traitor and deserve to be killed? I can also refer you to my own experience where, although I was born and raised in England, I have been told to "fuck off back to Poland" because I want to stay in Europe. Finaly, and tragically, how many brexit supporters have been killed for supporting their cause like poor Jo Cox was? Come off it. You are not a victim. You are aligning yourself with the hate campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 05:52 PM

Unless you are a millionaire and/or tax evader, you are indeed an idiot (fuckwit is not a word I use) if you voted brexit and/or Tory. Over the next three or four years you will see this in spades. You were taken in by the mass media. You were taken in by a hubris-ridden, testosterone-fuelled liar. You were all too easily fooled by a hostile media into thinking that Jeremy, a principled man who drops hot shit on Johnson when it comes to honesty, is the devil incarnate. If you're not actually an idiot, you're a racist. It really is that simple. There is no such thing as a Tory with a conscience. There is no such thing as a one-nation Tory. The Tory party is the party of self-interest, devil take the hindmost. It is and always was. In the last nine years, food banks have done a roaring trade. People have died on hospital trolleys and the A&E waiting time is the worst by streets that it's ever been. People cruelly denied benefits have died in the jobcentre queue. Millions have "contracts" which ensure that they don't know whether tomorrow will provide any work or pay. Meanwhile, tax cuts for the wealthy are on the cards. Non-doms and off-shorers are indulged. Another Eton cabinet will rule us. Welcome to Tory Britain. And Boris's soft talk beyond the red wall is simply another of his lies. One might have thought that you'd have seen it by now. More fool you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 06:39 PM

Oh well. Keep it up lads. Should see Boris in power for about eighteen years.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 06:44 PM

If you're not actually an idiot, you're a racist.

"Labour spokesmen said that they are “pretty sure” they lost so many seats because, “they didn’t call enough people ‘racist’.”

Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the main opposition Labour Party, said, “We clearly didn’t call enough people racist during this campaign. We’re going to have to step up our game next election and call people racist 50 percent more.”

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:28 PM

You are a liar. Those things were never said and you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:38 PM

Party members were asked in a poll today who should be the next leader. I struggle a bit with this. Half of me sez that principle should rule the day but the other half of me sez that the Corbyn project has been totally scuppered by the media, and that a new leader tarnished by the past would be trounced next time round. I'd have gone for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but she is tainted. In the end I voted for Jess Phillips. I dislike her intensely, but we simply have to win the next election. She's feisty enough to take on Johnson...and she's a woman... The only bloke in with a chance as I see it is Keir Starmer. But he ain't half a man in a suit...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 09:09 PM

Steve look at that comment the one before last.

You sound like the guy about to climb the clock tower
with an attack rifle. Time to come down from interplanetary Zog.

My aunt was a tory councillor for one of the roughest parts of Liverpool all her life. A gentler more decent lady, you could never meet. My Grandad was a miner from the age of twelve til he was 70. He played dominoes every week in the Conservative Club in St Helens.

Whoever has convinced you that ANYONE will vote for this shit you're coming out with has lied to you and misled you.

This rage is totally unproductive. If you insult people they will not vote for you. Its a stupid policy, and only a very stupid leader could have sanctioned and encouraged it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 09:14 PM

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 09:29 PM

I'm going to bed now, Al, but before I go I'll just say this. There are Tories who talk nice. There are Tories who talk gentle. But Tories are always in it for what they can get. Tories are in it for self-interest. Nice Tories are actually not nice at all. They are out to delude you. Just before the election, a poll found that 48% of Tory voters admit that they are racist. Blimey, that's just the ones who admit it, excluding the ones who say "I'm not a racist, but..."

I'm sure your aunt was a lovely woman but I'm also sure that you never forensically dissected her questionable politics. She was family, after all. Yeah, my grandad was just the same. Luvly feller, worked on Salford docks all his life, always voted Tory...

The trouble is, Al, that the alternative to what you see as detestable Corbynist policies is not Tory policies. That false message has been sold to the electorate this time, especially up north, and it worked. I'm saying that the Tory campaign has sold you a pup. You appear not to able to see that, along with millions of others. Well, it's going to come back to bite you. Soon, and big time. I take no joy in that either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 09:35 PM

The question as I see it is will whoever gets elected be a leader or a figurehead? It appears to me that Momentum lead the Labour party at the moment. To a certain extent Jeremy Corbyn was led by Momentum or the party membership. It is widely known that he was personally in favour of leaving the EU. The party membership or Momentum decided against leave and so the party line became a second referendum after a new deal.

Now it turns out that that was the policy that swung the election. Momentum and the party take no responsibility for this decision. They blame Corbyn and no one mentions that he was all for leaving and had he actually led on that the result would have been very different.

If the new 'leader' is just a figurehead for Momentum I don't see much hope for Labour in the next five years.