Review: Walter Pardon - Research

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 01:35 PM

Would you like me to quote your "banana" comment in full Dave

Yes please, Jim. I would.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 01:27 PM

I am beginning to fear the worst about JC after that outburst. I think this is a job for Joe Offer and it's not one I would like. I will totally understand if this post is deleted.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 01:27 PM

Walter's literacy came from his family's progressive belief that the way to make the world a better place was through self-education (pretty well the attitude taken by MacColl and many of his generation)
When Walter died we discovered an un-returned Library among his things a three volume copy of a Bronte novel - it was stamped the' North Walsham Working Mens' Library'
The activists of that period found the established education system wanting so they set up their own
Not everybody will be aware of the history of working class education in England, as someone,somewhat pompously put it recently
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 01:15 PM

Re commenting on Pardon' literacy.

1 I took a wide view of the potential audience here. Not everybody will be aware of the history of education in England. So I felt it worthwhile to sketch out. In any case, it isn't that simple: I have worked in adult literacy and I can assure that there still are some people who for one reason or another cannot read and write, sometimes because for family reasons they slipped through the net, or because school did not suit them, persistent truancy, family problems, all sorts of reasons.

2 Pardon's reading habits are explained in the texts referred to in the opening post.

3 Re JM's threats to request that this thread should be closed, and at the risk of appearing childish: oooo, I'm shivering in my shoes. Lighten up!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 01:14 PM

If this thread is to be of any use at all, it needs to be about Walter Pardon and not descend into trolling, personal abuse and over-reaction carried over from previous threads. I'd also say to Jim that, as far as I've understood, only the OP has made negative comments about his singing, and most other posters have praised it.

Like Howard Jones, whose contributions contain a lot of good sense, I'm interested in the OP's motive in opening the discussion. Putting all our present knowledge of Walter Pardon's repertoire, singing style, life experiences etc. in one place would be no bad thing. However, when the argument from the outset appears to be that everything we thought we knew is thrown into question by the (undefined) ideology and bias of those who met and recorded WP, I begin to suspect an agenda. Dave Harker's thesis in 'Fakesong' was that all previous scholarship was part of an overarching conspiracy to tell lies about working-class culture, and there seem to be echoes of that here.

Going back to the original and subsequent posts by Pseudonymous, there's a rather odd obsession with the possible influence of recordings on WP's singing style. It's not out of the question, but the evidence cited is misrepresented, for example:

Another interesting comment is one made by Roly Brown http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/pardon1.htm (accessed 5/11/2019) to the effect that nobody has considered the possible links between Pardon’s work and his collection of 78 rpm records. My thought here is that the last thing that the folklore establishment would be interested in doing is comparing the singing style on these 78 rms with Pardon’s own. Some of the songs are now digitally available, and there seems to me to be very strong similarities, in, for example, some of the trills Pardon uses from time to time.

What Roly Brown is actually saying is that the booklet notes to the 'Put a Bit Of Powder' CD include a list of WP's 78 collection, but do not directly compare that repertoire with WP's own. He is clearly not talking about singing style. As far as the repertoire goes Brown finds the overlap 'negligible' and the list of 78s 'somewhat gratuitous'. There is no cover-up here. What, in any case, is 'the folklore establishment'? Is Roly Brown to be considered part of it and, if not, why not? What grounds are there for claiming that said 'establishment' would have been anything other than intrigued to find a traditional singer's style to have been influenced by commercial recordings? The same review states that 'Walter rarely decorates', and there is no mention of 'trills' - I never detected any and nor, apparently, did Nick Dow.

Here's another odd remark that seeks somehow to undermine WP's status:

"Somewhere else it is said that Pardon started writing songs down after Billy died. But if so, who is to say where he found the words he wrote down?"

The suggestion here seems to be that WP probably obtained his texts from print, recordings, or possibly even made them up himself. It ignores the most likely explanation, which is that he simply remembered them. I can recall many song lyrics I heard regularly as a child, even ones I've never heard (or sung myself) since. There's no shortage of examples of traditional singers remembering lengthy ballads heard in their youth.

And here's an agenda-driven claim:

"A person who, early after his discovery, was denying singing folk songs cannot have spent so much time surrounded by the ideologues of the revival without picking up on their attitudes, without understanding, in a sense, what they want from him and the language in which they discuss song. The 'data' on Pardon as a traditional singer supposedly produced by so many interviews is hopeless polluted by all this, not to mention the leading questions that his interviewers appear to have been so fond of using."

No examples are cited of 'leading questions', but the assumption in this (to me as well as Jim Carroll) patronising and rather offensive statement is that Walter Pardon was a suggestible old man, and we can safely discount the opinions he expressed because they've been planted in his silly head by the dreaded 'folklore establishment'. Never mind that he, by all accounts, was an intelligent man with strong and articulate views of his own. As I said elsewhere, the whole point of trying to learn WP's opinions about the songs was that so few song collectors of an earlier era bothered to do this kind of thing. Most interested parties would celebrate the approach, rather than attempt to undermine it. Jim Carroll's account is that WP maintained a distinction between the older songs in his repertoire and the Music Hall material, as did certain other traditional singers. He also made a clear association between melodies in the non-major modes (melodeon bellows finish extended) and the antiquity of the song.

Here's another questionable point:

"He himself said he believed that his grandfather got them from broadsides. If that source doesn't count as Victorian popular music …."

Actually the OP's original description (on another thread) was 'Victorian pop songs', which was clearly pejorative. Even his diluted version is inaccurate, though. For a start, broadsides typically included no music. Secondly, as the Roly Brown review cited by the OP makes clear, the broadside repertoire we are talking about here 'entered the domain of singers [from] the late eighteenth century up to and including the biggest surge of broadside production during the 1830s and 1840s'. Victoria ascended to the throne in 1737. No doubt many of the same broadside texts were still available when WP's grandfather was a young man (though this would not explain where he got the tunes), but that does not make them cultural products of the Victorian era.

Lastly, Pseudonymous really needs to get to grips with what 'tradition' means in this context. It's about songs being passed on between generations and communities - nothing to do with anonymity, antiquity or performance style. And it's usage has nothing to do with Marxism.

I'm glad Mike Yates has joined the discussion, that makes two contributors who know more about Walter Pardon than most.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 01:13 PM

"I have never ever written anything racist about travellers."
I've just quoted you - do you deny you wrote that ?
You in fact went on to ask "how else do they live"

"Who are you referring to when you say"
Would you like me to quote your "banana" comment in full Dave
I was brought up to talk about older people with the same respect you would if they were in their presence
I suggest you come off your high horse and read your own postings
I don't use the term "snide" unless I believe it to be accurate
I have no intention of causing this thread to close by making it an "I said- you said" battle
The disgraceful way Walter was referred to by several people - Pseud being the first" and most persistent - is still up far viewing (unfortunately)
You need to make sure you take longer spoons when dining in such company
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 01:01 PM

I have never ever written anything racist about travellers.

You are quite right that the words quoted appear in my post Jim. However you are not right to state that they represent my view on the travelling community.

This is a vile misrepresentation. And to make and repeat it is beneath contempt.

And, regrettably, it is typical of Jim first to unjustly hurl this abuse at me and then to deny ever having insulted anybody. In this case he has simply taken words out of context.

What I actually did was to criticise what I considered to be inappropriate stereotypes of travellers. I noted that travelling people interacted economically with people from the non-travelling community, which was why it was 'unfortunate' (I realise this is a weak word) that they were so often stereotyped in the words quoted by Jim.

I am not the first to complain that Jim did not read my post properly and I shall not be the last. But it is there on the thread for anybody to read.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:51 PM

Who are you referring to when you say "How dare you people continue as you asre", Jim? Just those who disagree with you? Everyone on the thread? Specific people on the thread? If you want to set up a challenge like "how dare you", you need to be specific as to who it is aimed at.

However, as Jeri says, if you are aiming to get the thread closed, stop talking about the subject of a thread in favor of going after other posters. I guess, seeing as you have shown an intense dislike of what is being said, this is what you are trying to achieve.

I understand that Walter.was a kind and generous man, particularly to you, so rather than aiming random broadsides at all and sundry, would you care to share your personal experiences of him?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:33 PM

"People who aim the word "dementia" as a term of abuse should be thrown off this forum - not sure what you do about if when it's a mod who does it
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:24 PM

Couple of typos thare for the usual suspects to pick up on
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:20 PM

How dare you people continue as you asre and how dare anybody bring up something I have been in dispute with a modrator for some time ago - that dispute goes far deeper than the matter in hand
Enough
I have bbeen at the centre of ab avbusive attack by Pseudonymous since I pulled him up about his racist behavior towards Travellers

Since then has has turned his attention on Walter Pardon, with the assistance of some others here
If any of you believe that to be fitting behaviour for anybody professing to have the vaguest interest in folk music, then hou come from a different planet than mine#
Travellers have given us more songs and stories than most social groups oin Britain - to write them off as THIEVES, POACHERS, AND SCAVANGERS is totally unacceptable in my world, but those are the exact words used by this abusive troll = ain't that right, ,Pseudonymous ?
Walter appeared on the scene and for twnty years sang his songs and passed on his experiences as England# last large repertoire source singer generously and without hesitation
Again, to Pseudonymous, he was an indifferent and unimportant singer who was gullible enough to be duped into using teh term "folk song" - is that true or not true Pseudonymous ?

When we met Walter in 1975 we discovered he had read every Charles Dickens novel at least three times over and could quote freely from them in casual conversation
At the time, Thomas Hardy was merely a film (Far From the Madding Crowd) and a name on the library shelves - Walter, who had read all his novels half-a--dozen times, encouraged me to read them, so tried, 'Tess' and got as hooked as he was - I have since all of Hardy and most of Dickens thanks to Walter
We have a recording of an interview we did on Walter's literary tastes, where he says "Two of the greatest crimes in literature was the hanging of Tess and the drowning of Maggie Tulliver" (I had to look up who the latter was)

Pseudonymous - if you insult me or anybody once more I will ask that you be stopped from posting to this forum - nobody has insulted you so I suggest you behave like an adult and do likewise - you are a guest here
Similarly, if you (or any of your fellow granddad-bashers use Walter as a target fro your sick humour I will request that this thread be closed
It is totally that one of England's finest source singers be used as target practice by people who obviously know or care about English folk song
How it has been allowed to reach this stage is totally beyond me - this forum should be about promoting and respecting our folk benefactors, not taking the piss out of them - especially when they have been dead as long as Walter has and is not around to speak for himself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 11:58 AM

When I was a teenager, the town library had an impressive collection of Topic,
and other folk record Label LPs.
I spent a lot of time looking over the sleeves,
even collected Topic catalogues from the local record shop.
Curious about the old photos..
But can't remember the extent to which I listened to any Trad folk source singer LPs from the library.

This was at a time when folk rock in the pop charts was turning me onto investigating deeper into trad folk...

But from my 20s to 30s I forgot most of what I found out...

That's why I now find a thread like this on Walter Pardon useful.
But, Pseud's convoluted academic approach is a painful reminder of my degree/post grad courses a lifetime ago...

AS for Jim's outrage, it is a ridiculous over reaction to what he all too frequently misconstrues.
.. and is cause for concern for folks who like and respect him...

The "Dementia" word was raised a few posts back..
My life has been overwhelmed coping with my mum's dememtia..
Music has taken a low priority back seat, which is very disheartening.

From my perspective, all older mudcaters should be sensible, swallow their pride,
and see a doctor to discuss tests for dementia.
Early diagnosis and treatment is crucial...

It won't be as uncomfortable as our first prostrate probe...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 11:30 AM

Thanks for the drawing together of links to articles about Walter Pardon and to his singing. I think the articles stand OK on their own and, despite warning here, I am not left feeling I may have been led astray.
As Howard Jones says "It's usually fairly obvious when a writer is looking at something from a certain perspective"

However, I am not sure what perspective is behind the opening post. To say that a carpenter born in 1919 was literate is a bit like saying he still had all his fingers and thumbs - only worth mentioning if it was not the case. Likewise mentioning that he knew some history. Most 'working people' of that generation did not have access to secondary education but many of them followed their interests through books and took part in civil society in various ways. As a bachelor Walter maybe had more time for reading than most.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 11:21 AM

Re background, you can search Mudcat using my name as a search term and it will bring you up previous discussion, including some of the thread about the current state of folk song. This is all there for anybody to see.   

Once again, have a nice weekend.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 11:08 AM

Hello Mike
Thank you for the clarification on your position regarding Marxist thinking. That is exactly the sort of helpful clarification which takes the discussion forward.

The 'card carrying communist' remark was partly flip, though I stand by the underlying thinking; sorry if it caused offence.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 11:00 AM

Howard,

I do think about what you say, believe me, which is why I am returning despite having other stuff to be doing. It is useful to have people challenge what you say, if it's done in the right spririt etc.

I hear what you say about approaching Pardon for the 'music' if you like, the singing, and feel I understand because this is how I often approach something: I like this, what can I learn from it albeit at my lowly level of skill. Nothing wrong with that, part of my 'tradition' to misuse an overworked word. Far from there being anything wrong with it.

It may even be as you imply that JM's frequent refs to Pardon were part of bringing him to the forefront of my consciousness: I don't really know, there is a world outside the Mudcat bubble. I certainly took trouble to reference in my original post the contributions Jim and Pat had made relating to him, and you can check back to confirm this.

I had sworn not to get involved in discussing JM but it seems unavoidable, but I'm not sure that by selecting a different singer (an idea put into my head by your comments) I might have avoided the problems I perceive (rightly or wrongly) to have arisen since JM came back from a break and joined in this thread. Because he has made over 27,000 posts and is likely to want to join in more or less whatever.

I will say that if I had not in some sense had an interest or sort of liking on some level for Pardon I should not have chosen him. And if people say you need to work on it to get to like him then that is what it seems to me on one level I have been doing.

I'm with Nick Dow but having trawled back over years of threads I don't hold out much hope. People fond of JM may reflect that the main 'heritage' he will be leaving for the future is likely to be 27,000 posts on Mudcat. How that will affect people's willingness to take his research projects seriously is another question. But one worth asking if your name is JM.

But I shall be listening to Pardon and some other singers if I can get all the music as I hope to spend some time enjoying the thesis and comparison.

Have a good weekend everybody.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 10:40 AM

Thanks for the link. Just for the record I have no desire to 'set up' Jim or anybody else. I'm going to make the odd light hearted comment probably because I've been a performer for 40 years. It never entered my head it would be pounced on and turned into a fiasco. Unfortunately it takes Jim Carroll to do that. I just wanted to post my first hand memories of Walter Pardon because I thought they might be an asset to the thread, and could be of interest to the original poster. I don't think anybody else here had any intention of deliberately starting a stupid row with JC, in fact if you look at my other posts and other peoples we are all actively trying to avoid a row.
The only deliberate offence given here is by JC himself-to me to Dick to Dave to Punk to anybody at all.
So-let me try and defuse it a bit. There is great respect for Walter Pardon, there is great respect for most of the posters on here, as Joe suggests above there would be for JC if he would realise that behaving the way he does regularly on Mudcat simply spoils a valuable asset to our mutual love of Folk Music. We are allowed to disagree without it becoming a personal abuse contest. So if another light hearted comment is made like the one I made about the quote from the film could JC at least give me or anybody else the benefit of the doubt before going off on one.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 10:15 AM

When Neutral Observer made the comment that Jim could have been set up on this thread, I was already coming round to this idea myself. Now Pseudonymous writes that he/she has twice been given a kicking. Jim actually wrote that it was Walter Pardon who had been given a kicking. And where does this 'Carthy Family lynching' come from? If from a previous thread then Pseudonymous has previous knowledge of Jim. Then, out of the blue, Pseudonymous adds Joe Offer's previous threat to Jim. Interesting this, or am I beginning to see a complex anti-Jim conspiracy here?
And while I am on, just for the record I am not a Marxist (though I have studied Marxism at Uni and do sometime find it useful to use Marxist ideas to help me understand history). I find it odd that in one place where I am called a Marxist, Pseudonymous used the phrase 'Card carrying Communist' in the next line. Am I being tainted here by word association?
If this is a set up, then it is a very well thought out one. Recently somebody set Jim up with a very bad-taste 'joke' (which, I am glad to say was quickly removed) but the more I think about this I do wonder what is going on.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 10:07 AM

For Nick

Hope this works

http://theses.ncl.ac.uk/jspui/handle/10443/158

"Vernacular song from a North Yorkshire hill farm : culture, contexts and comparisons" is the title.

Howard: Thanks again for your contribution. I hear what you are saying, but I still think that the case study approach is an interesting one. It cuts down the variables. We should be able to discuss any singer without being concerned about any particular mudcat member, and I am sure everybody would welcomed and has welcomed any helpful contribution to the discussion.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:54 AM

Pseudonymous, if you wanted to discuss ideological influences on collectors that has been fairly thoroughly discussed both on here and in print. It's usually fairly obvious when a writer is looking at something from a certain perspective, and if you don't share that perspective you can ignore, or challenge, their conclusions.

I'm not sure what difference it makes to the actual subjects. I don't think it has helped this discussion to make it about one particular singer, when it might have been better to have been more focused on writers' interpretations of traditional singing. Bringing WP into it has perhaps been a distraction.

However since he has been brought into it, he is particularly prominent on Mudcat because whenever Jim, who is a very prolific poster, wants an example of a traditional singer he usually goes to WP. At the time WP was not the only traditional singer who performed on the folk circuit. He was highly regarded by most with an interest in traditional singing, but I don't think you can attribute that entirely to ideology - he was a fine singer and a confident if modest performer, with a large repertoire. Whilst this is subjective, he certainly appeared to me to be among the best I heard, but I don't think he was "lionised" much more than the others.

All these traditional singers were valued because of the connection they provided to the tradition. For some there may have been an ideological element, but above all it was about the singing.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:40 AM

anyone who does not listen to a link but decides on what has or has not been said is prejudging or prejudiced.
nobody has insulted walter, at all two well respected friends and collectors made a casual remark in my presence that they had better get something to eat before they visited walter pardon because his idea of a meal was a banana has been turned [by jim] in to a denigration of walters eating habits,absolute poppy cock

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:26 AM

Sorry can't find the link. Would you mind posting it again. Not your fault, my rapidly declining Laptop I suspect.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:11 AM

Pity if it were closed: it would be interesting to hear what people think of Hellier's respectful and interesting comparisons of several 'traditional' (read him yourself to see how he uses the term) singers, including Pardon.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:09 AM

And before you ask, I use germoloids. It spoils the taste if you use butter.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:08 AM

I can't even make a joke about my own haemorrhoids without him having a go!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:02 AM

Clue: when people stop talking about the subject of a thread in favor of going after other posters, you'll get it closed.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 08:56 AM

On a personal note, I (and my family who read this stuff) have been rather concerned about the use of language relating to physical violence in posts addressed to me by Jim Carroll. Twice he has alleged that I have been given a 'kicking' and recently he indulged in some fantasy relating to members of the Carthy family lynching me with a rope. At first I was shocked to think that the Carthy's were such people; but of course this is the imagination of the poster.

The fact that I do not register as a member has been mentioned, often sneeringly. I'll turn this around: in what world would it make sense to register and risk receiving PMs on a site where language like this is used.

I may be back to continue the discussion. I enjoy a discussion and a lively exchange of views. But not this sort of thing. For now I'll be busy elsewhere.

Best wishes
Sue

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 08:23 AM

We see similar things across the USA , right now.
Well, firstly can I point out that post comes from the USA because Joe Offer is an American and secondly ask yourself how many years of frustration the volunteer adminstrator of this site suffered and how many hours he has spent dealing with this before this outburst came.
I met Joe Offer once when he was over here at Whitby Folk Festival and had a long conversation with him. He seemed to be a very gentle and even-tempered guy.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,NO
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 08:03 AM

Quoting that Joe Offer post, giving you permission to behave like a bully.

“Quick lads, the big man says we can bully the Carroll man. Get stuck in”

We see similar things across the USA , right now.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:36 AM

Didn't get to meet Fred, Nick but I can certainly concur that he was a fine singer. I had not come across such traditional singing before, only second hand via revivalists such as yourself and Peter Bellamy. As I said it took me a good few songs to get into it. Once I did, it was great!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:26 AM

And I can see where Joe was coming from.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:20 AM

Wow! Joe Offer sounds more exasperated than the rest of us. That says it all.
Fred was a fine man and singer by the way Dave.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:15 AM

Sorry, I spelled Althusser incorrectly.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:11 AM

Just out of interest, here is a post made some time ago by Joe Offer

OK, Jim, here's how it is: you seem to have dementia or some sort of psychological problem that does not allow you to participate in a discussion without turning it into combat. You know lots of good stuff about music, and yet you seem to turn every discussion into a discussion of yourself and how you are offended. Most of us here, don't give a rat's ass HOW offended you are and who offended you. We want to talk about music, not about Jim Carroll.
You posted two messages in this so-called ballad thread, and neither one has anything to do with music. That is unacceptable. If you can't carry on a discussion here without getting in a fight, then YOU are unacceptable.
I'm going to close this thread, and I don't want to see any more discussion about thread closure. And particularly from you, Jim, I don't want to see any discussion about anything but the actual topic of the thread.
You are a consistent troublemaker here, and have been for years. We simply cannot allow you to continue doing that, no matter what the source of your problem is. If all you want to do is fight, go somewhere else - but stop clogging Mudcat with your ridiculously petty squabbles. From now on, when you are at Mudcat you are expected to be on what your mother would call "your best behavior." I shouldn't have to treat you like a child; but most often when you're here, you act like a child. Stop it.
Thank you.
Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor

This thread is closed.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:01 AM

I was never lucky enough to see Walter live.

The only traditional singer I came across was Fred Jordan when he appeared at Fylde Folk Festival. I found it not my cup of tea at first but the more I heard, the more I enjoyed what he did. Traditional singing is not my favourite facet of folk music and, given the choice, I prefer a good mix of styles and sounds. But I certainly appreciate that traditional singers were the source and inspiration for many of the modern day acts and I definitely enjoy a certain amount of "source singing"

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 06:56 AM

Hello Howard

Thank you for your input. No, I am not suggesting that 'tradition' is a Marxist concept. What I am pointing out, accurately, I think, is that some people have used it in a Marxist sense, including, obviously, Marxists like Ewan McColl and Bert Lloyd.

At the risk of repeating myself, what interests me is the way in which Pardon has been presented and analysed through various theoretical lenses, and Marxist has been it seems to me dominant. Mike Yates, as I said, was perfectly open about his Marxist approach, which seems to me to be good practice in terms of critical analysis: it is the done thing in some circles to make one's theoretical framework clear: it is seen as part of the intellectual challenge of drawing up and presenting the analysis.

I do not think that pointing out that a person is or was Marxist equates to carrying out a witch hunt. It is striking when one encounters works such as that of A L Lloyd as I did, from the perspective of one coming to it much later in time, a later generation, how much it reflects the left in post war Britain.

On one level, and putting this simplistically, it comes across as dated, and I don't think I am alone in this.

For example, Matthew Ord writes in his piece how 'gendered' be finds the work of that group, and in this I think he is correct. It stands out like a sort thumb to those of us who have moved on from the old post-war orthodoxies which, it seems to me, people like Lloyd and MacColl in their different ways, represent. Ord cites Althuzzer at one point: I think he is seeking to move beyond the 'vulgar' Marxism of some of Lloyd's early work (eg the first history of folk lore, the one based on AL Morton's history of England, which I do possess a copy of).

Similarly, David Hellier is quite at home with the idea that there is a 'tradition' but he does not frame it within the Marxist propaganda of McColl and Lloyd (and nobody with an open mind it seems to me can deny that this was their project, specifically a Moscow supporting type of Marxism, I have met Maoists in my time!) Hellier, it seems to me, is possibly writing in some sense 'against' the Marxism as if I remember correctly he described Billy and Pardon as small businessmen.

It seems obvious to me that as time passes, their work and those of their contemporaries within that group will inevitably be considered by more and more people who see it as something in the past, which it is, reflecting the - sorry to use the words again - ideologies of post war Britain.

What have I done with my life? What I could. Including making music, some of it, on the simple definition offered by Nick Dow, definitely folk music and already collected to boot.

My information on the union which Billy was a member of comes from a piece by Mike Yates on the Mustrad web site. Yates seems to have taken a particular interest in this, as evidenced by the piece. Were I to write up my draft, I would cite Yates as a reference on the topic. As I have said, he is one of the writers whose work on Pardon I have enjoyed.

Sandman, I forgot to acknowledge your G Lewis comment.

I forgot to thank the 'guest' who provided me with the Hillery information: it turned out to be Newcastle (which I guessed at because I knew the Vic Gammon link, I might have tried Sheffield next?). So thank you.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 06:44 AM

As I was saying. Anybody else witness Walters magnificent performance at Dingles.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 06:42 AM

Maybe we may get a straight answer out of you then, (not so) neutral observer. Do you view any mention of what Walter ate a "hate fest" or denigrating or nasty in any way? If so, why? Do you think that anyone has tried to demonize Walter or portray him as a freak? If so, where?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 06:37 AM

Thanks Obbo - much appreciated
I was aware I was being wound up - I really am not that think, but was happy to pull the rats out of the wainscoting - all in a good cause and second to actually gettin people to take folk song seriously, which I have come to realise is out of the question
I may be getting on in years, but I'm now achieving more than I have ever done - go examine tha Clare County website or dip into the PCloud site when it's up - we made sicx radio programmes over the last few years and a local flm coming up
My Irish Child Ballad project is probably the most ambitious but will be the most important
Who said growing old was depressing - just visiting this site is nowadays
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Neutral Observer
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 06:05 AM

Well, this thread - Review: Walter Pardon; Research - should really have been named - Project: Trolling Jim Carroll. Well done pseud, you got 'im good 'n' proper. You knew one of his emotive spots and you set up a trap. I'd hoped Jim'd have seen through the obvious facade, but there you have it. Not sure what you're wanting to achieve, other than winding up an old man, but I hope you're happy, at least.

I find this dismantling of great singers to their bare bones most tiresome. I always wonder of the dismantlers - and what exactly is it that YOU'VE done in your life? It seems to me it's the people who have done the least, contribute the most to petty minded vulturing like this.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:45 AM

Did anybody else see Walter Pardon live at Dingles Folk Club? It's such a long time ago I could do with my memory refreshing.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:39 AM

" jim fucking well listen to this before you make any more comments"
Not interested Dick - Walter's eating habits were his own business and should never be discussed publicly - they have become part of a hate-fest here
Pauline spoke of Walter as a friend and an inspiration - here he has been presented as an anachronistic freak who has no place on a thread on today folk scene
I-m finished with this disgusting shit - I expected more from you with your reliance on good traditional songs

As the political Elepant has been raised (by someone with a thing about 'Pikeys')
I never heard Walter openly express a political opinion - he was, as Pat and I are, humanists with a small h.
One time when we were discussing Thatcher's brutalising of the miners, Walter said, "My Uncle Billy would have loved to have met you two" - I treasure that as the most complimentary thing ever said to Pat and I

Walter's family were very much a part of George Edwards's re-establishment of Joseph Arch's Agricultural Workers Union and weer proud card-carrying members of that admirable organisation
Even though you have no respect for Walter as a singer (or a human being, it sometimes seems) I strongly recommend you read Mike Yates's superb article on the period on the internet magazine, Musical Traditions
Be very careful though, you might learn something if you drop your guard and open your minds
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:15 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B95JAQe1Wtc jim fucking well listen to this before you make any more comments

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:07 AM

Dick's had a go at being reasonable with Jim, so has Dave, so has Punkfolkrocker and so have various other people. I'm afraid I have to agree that he is behaving like an idiot deliberately. He just seems to want to place himself and his views at the head of the queue, and we must all form a respectful line behind him. If we refuse he will demand that which he believes is his rightful place at great length, and with vitriolic turn of phrase.
I think the only answer is to ignore him if we possibly can. I know we all get that sinking feeling of 'Oh God here he is again that's the end of a pleasant thread' however if we try not to rise to it, which is quite difficult I know, (especially for me after what he has just written above) he might get the message (or not). So onward and upward.

Mike Yates story was fascinating.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:05 AM

No explanation of how mentioning what Walter ate is denigrating or nasty then.

I'm glad really. If you could have justified it I would have had to give myself a dressing down for talking about the unusual things my Dad ate.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:57 AM

jim, listen to the clip and stop being silly, nobody is denigrating walter.why dont you go away with this squit you havent even listened to the clip,everybody in that clip praises walterincluding pauline godbold,for gad sake cop on you are just making yoursef lok foolish, listen to the bloody clip

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:57 AM

I hve no idea if Walter ever met a communist of an type, but you can bet he'd have greeted them with the same warmth and humanity he did everybody (including Peter Bellamy, whose father was a Blackshirt)
Nice story with a strong message Mike and very apt, given the way McCarthyism has shown it's face on this forum thanks to the behaviour of an anonymous troll

THanks for that list Geoff - a much-needed blast of fresh air
I'm at present working on putting an extensive selection of Walter's songs and talk in order to make it available on PCloud
Pity some of those in this ritual degradation-dance aren't going to make use of it
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:54 AM

Pseudonymous, "early twentieth century" is an entirely random cut-off point (and in fact we do have those recordings of C19th singers, albeit they were made in the early years of the C20th). It is true that Sharp and the other collectors at that time thought they were capturing the dying embers of a tradition just before it died out completely, but the sort of community song culture I described in my earlier post continued into the C20th and even up to the present day, if only in a few places.

Are you suggesting that "tradition" does not in fact exist? Are you suggesting that the idea of "tradition" is simply a left wing, even Marxist, concept?

Are you suggesting that Walter Pardon and all the singers recorded for VoTP and the other recordings I mentioned are not "traditional" and should be considered simply on their ability as singers and not as representatives of a tradition or examples of a traditional style?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:37 AM

Yesterday Pseudonymous asked the question, 'Did anybody ever say to Pardon, I've been a card carrying communist'. This reminded me of something that happened to me in America in 1979. I was at the home of the Appalachian singer Dan Tate and I noticed a rifle behind Dan's front door. Dan was blind and so I asked him why he had the gun. Dan replied, 'Well Mike, I've heard of the Red Menace and if they come over my mountain I'll be ready for them.' The day before, Dan had been telling me about the famous people who, over the years, had called to see him, including 'Alan' and 'Pete', two people that he really liked. 'Alan' was Alan Lomax and 'Pete' was Pete Seeger. I didn't have the heart to tell Dan that, so far as many Americans were concerned, Lomax and Seeger were the 'Red Menace'.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM

39 Recordings on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRxZAeyLrf0&list=PLakEhBfePSAwqFw3TmOZ5DS2tN3uvfXt3
1The Pretty Ploughboy2A British Man'o'war3The Deserter4Two Jolly Butchers5The Handsome Cabin Boy6The Bold Fisherman7The Loss of the Ramillies8The Rambling Blade9Raggle Taggle Gypsies10Lord Lovell11Bold Princess Royal12The Rakish Young Fellow13The Banks of Sweet Dundee14 I Wish, I Wish15The Trees They Do Grow High16Uncle Walter's Tune17The Lawyer (Or Mowing the Barley)18One Cold Morning in December19Talk About Ownership of Songs20The Cunning Cobbler21The Maid of Australia22The Jolly Waggoner23Jack Hall24Peggy Bawn25Let the Wind Blow High or Low26Broomfield Hill27A Country Life28The Dandy Man29The Hungry Army30The Devil and the Farmer's Wife31The Bush of Australia32Cupid the Ploughboy33The Female Drummer 34 An Old Man's Advice 35 The Dark Eyed Sailor 36 The Poachers' Fate 37 Jack Tar Ashore38 A Ship to Old England Came39Van Dieman's Land