Review: Walter Pardon - Research

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 12:47 PM

Let's hope so!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: RTim
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 12:29 PM

GUEST,Pseudonymous - Yes - it is Nick Dow singing the Cyril Tawney song "Sammy's Bar" - again off topic.
In relation to thread - this is NOT a Trad. song....but is one that will likely end up in the Tradition.....like several of Cyril's....

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 12:28 PM

My view like I suspect many other singers interested in the old and traditional songs is to pick up songs of interest and that have social historical and perhaps good choruses to learn and entertain people at song and music sessions

I have over the years learnt some of Walter's songs from aforesaid Vinyl and CD sources

This interest led me to research the background to the songs themselves ~ I have to admit that I only looked at Walter Pardon the man to a small degree ~ I as I say only ever saw and heard him live once ~ I was certainly impressed an the sleeve notes were and are a good source of information on all matters as far as I care!

Ray

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 12:25 PM

I don't object to academic arguments at all, but for the most part academics write, agree with, disagree with other academics.
Not a crime of course but all of them for me seem to miss the point.
Which is, it's about singing for the sake of singing. You choose your medium and the parameters of that medium and work within it, if you wish to stay true to any tradition, or reinterpret it if you don't. Which incidentally is what McColl said in the song Carriers. Not better or worse just different, were his exact words.
If you don't like a particular singer fine leave it at that, there is no need for academic justification. I'm not wildly keen on Phoebe Smith, which for a man who has been with Gypsies for over 30 years is quite an admission, however I love Caroline Hughes and have met her family and friends. End of story for me.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 12:15 PM

It is not an unreasonable question for somebody new to this subject
to ask if Walter had a radio or a telly...
Providing regular contact with the modern age, current affairs, Pop culture,
even specialist folk music programmes...???

My working class ancestors were technologically savvy enough
to enthusiastically equip themselveswith the modern marvel of crystal radio...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 12:02 PM

That is Nick, Pseudonymous. Not just talented but an all round good bloke.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 11:22 AM

And on it being 'simple', well take a 'simple' phrase like 'folk song'. Can anybody who has followed the multiple, often acrimonious discussions on this thread, and MUSTRAD, and, it appears other fora, believe that deciding what is and is not a 'folk song' is a simple matter. And, and this is my interest, which you don't have to share, my interest is in how these different ideas and views inform/shape/bias what people have had to say about Pardon. I got thinking about it because the stuff I found about him was far from 'simple'; it was, as I say, often contradictory and the answer to the contradictions often seems to be that they reflect the differing ideologies and perspectives of the people whose comments I was reading. Sometimes, as in the case of Mike Yates (whose work I speak well of in my opening piece) the theoretical approach is discussed and open. Often, and I think this is a rather typical old left strategy the ideology is kept behind, under wraps.

Did anybody ever say to Pardon, I've been a card carrying communist and I am really happy because you support my view that folk music represents the superstructure in my class based dialectical view of history? I should be surprised to hear it if they did.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 11:13 AM

Is this you Nick? Nice song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=48&v=7OxsaeBBCs4

Off topic I know. Sorry.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 11:06 AM

Martin Carthy is quoted on film as saying Pardon was very exciting indeed when he had only heard about him second hand from Peter Bellamy. That is another piece of evidence in support of a view that the initial enthusiasm for Pardon had little to do with the quality of his singing or the style he sang in. This is from the EDGE TV film, the same one in which a neighbour describes what she fed to Pardon when he came for a meal, which he seemed to do frequently. She seemed to like him, said his friends in the village tried to ensure he did not suffer as a result of all the attention he was getting from the folklorists.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 11:00 AM

I'm in agreement with a lot of what pfr says about Pardon: my thinking is that some people may object to the idea that he may have been influenced by 78s because they are ideologically committed to a particular view of Pardon and get agitated when faced with ideas that conflict with or cast doubt on it.

'It's simple'. People can take a simple view or a more nuanced one. For me, people are entitled to take whichever view they like. With respect, I don't buy the idea that 'academic arguments' are self-serving, or see why if this sort of point is valid it doesn't also apply to simple arguments.

It also seems to me fairly plain that when Pardon was discovered, this marketing and lionisation did not go from first liking his songs and singing and then following on. I was looking at something today that said the writer took a long time to get to like his work. But that person had been involved in all the surrounding 'stuff'. Can't just think who it was now


Supporting the same view of the history of the discovery and 'marketing' of Pardon within the left wing world of the folk revival, is something else I read recently, by a person who said that the early recordings of Pardon weren't very good because it had been decades since he had sung.

As I see it, whatever genuine friendships may have sprung up, Pardon was taken up because he ticked boxes on the McColl etc ticklist of what counted as traditional/folk. This seems to me to be as close as a 'factual' account, if simple, of what happened.

This is my view, that's all.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 10:47 AM

Nick

Thank you for your contribution. However, to me it seems contradictory. On the one hand, you appears to object to 'academic arguments', on the other you refer to McColl, whose work within what they call/called 'the revival' was most certainly based upon theoretical/academic thinking.

There are I believe a number of accounts of the Song Carrier project. It was shot through with theory.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 03:48 AM

It is very simple. The songs and singing style come first. Respect for the man usually follows, and genealogical and academic research follows on from that.
I would suggest that anybody who is in doubt about 'Traditional singing style' should listen and learn from McColl's unsurpassed Song Carrier programmes. Nit picking arguments about value judgments etc, are of no interest when placed against the simple value placed on the songs by most Traditional singers. 'I want you to love the songs as much as me.'
Most academic arguments are usually self serving and end in silence, from an ever decreasing circle.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 10:03 PM

"It seems it's sufficient to just undermine the fact that he was England's Tradional singers by suggesting that ........
he learned what he knew about folk from albums?"

Jim - Btw.. it is the most natural thing in the world for music fans and musicians
to be inquisitive about each others record collections..

It is a friendship making sharing activity, where we learn about each other's favourites and influences.
Taking pleasure in our personal tastes, and finding out what we have in common;
suggesting others have a listen to something we think they might enjoy...

It is one of the first automatic things to do when first in a new aquaintances home - an ice breaker...

IT IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN A BAD THING...

There is no shame if Walter had 78s or LPs he liked, and took inspiration from..
We all do it...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 09:49 PM

"You all out to be ashamed of yourselves"

Jim's back then...

Jim - your over reactions to what you misread of other peoples intentions,
don't achieve anything positive for anybody...

I've been in real life situations where me and mates in a pub are having a good lively conversations,
when someone eavesdropping over on another table, picks up on a few words misheard out of context,
then goes off on one berating us for something they misunderstood...

Folkies listening to Walter Pardon, or any old source singer, with fresh ears, for the first time in their lives in 2019,
will decide for themselve's if they like what they hear...

If they do like it, and are curious to discover more about these singers,
they might ask some questions which could seem discourteous to real experts like yourself,
but the questions are not laced with malice...
However, your cranky far too over protective response can be counter-productive,
discouraging new listeners from making the effort to find out more from folks like you...

We know you and how you can respond sometimes, but newcomers don't...
I say in all sincerity as a mudcatter who likes and respects you,
that when you work yourself up into moods like this,
you more likely do more harm than good..
It is not a positive effective way to promote your passion for traditinal singers to potential newcomers to folk music...

[btw, just read your over the top outburst in the 2019 thread while I was proof reading this post..]

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 08:42 PM

Howard, I hear and respect your comments. I am grateful for them as the are interesting and reasonably phrased.

I fully admit to being less than one hundred percent a fan of the work of Walter Pardon. I think that it's sort of all right. Nothing much to write home about whichever way you look at it. This does not equate to having an intention to mount a veiled attack on him. I don't intend to 'veil' anything, and hope I have been quite clear, in, for example, responding to your questions as fully as I can.

So here are some tentative thoughts in response again to what you have put.

I have said that he was 'lionised'. I believe that this is the case, and coming across him late in life, it is very striking. By 'lionised', I mean something like treated out or made into a celebrity. Glorified, honoured, acclaimed.

The very language in which he is spoken of demonstrates this. Meaning no disrespect to those who use it and who are quoted below:

'I have plenty to learn from him'
'determined to keep the songs alive'
'his pacing is a lesson in restraint'
'still regarded as an important figure in British folk song and that will continue to be the case while the subject is remembered.'
'important source singer'
'one of the few outstanding folksingers left in England today'
'traditional singer'
'one of the important traditional singers whom Norfolk produced during the 20th century.'

and more overtly political (though much of the language and thinking of the post-war folk boom was implicitly political):

'confirmation of the fact that the world-view of 19th century rural agricultural workers was enlarged directly as a result of the dialectical effects brought about by the processes of capitalism.'

These are value statements with which I don't necessarily agree, but what strikes me more than anything is that they seem to be imbued with a particular set of assumptions, beliefs, values, an ideology in other words, as in .

Well that isn't true because there is more than one set here of values here: some are overtly Marxist, as for example Mike Yates, who in one article on Pardon goes on to suggest that Sharp's view of 'folk' won't do and a new one is needed (maybe he has been reading the end of Lloyd's book or influenced by the work and political programme of MacColl). I refer to Yates in the OP.


Regarding other comments that have been made. I had not until just now read anybody suggesting that Pardon actually learned songs from a recording, and had not made that precise suggestion myself (though I can't see why people should be so alarmed at the idea), but I have just found precisely such a suggestion in yet another Mustrad article, this time by Mike Yates (2003)

Sorry, cutting off short. You chose the word 'debunk' and I think felt that I wanted to dismantle Pardon's reputation as a great traditional singer and so on. Debunk isn't a word I would choose. What interests me is getting a handle on how it came about that so many people are convinced that things that seem to me to have been sort of thought up mid to late 20th century are historical facts.

For example, take the phrase 'traditional singer'. As far as I am aware, nobody knows much about what traditional singing might have sounded like. There are discussions about this on Mustrad too. There are no recordings of it, obviously.

I think on one level, changing tack for a moment, 'reading' a performance of a song is like 'reading' a poem: it isn't a matter of getting the information from the poem, it is always a matter of interpreting what is there. So I am sure that people like Nick will take inspiration from Pardon's style; what I am less sure of is that in so doing they are in any particularly meaningful sense tapping into any great stylistic tradition. Indeed, I have seen it argued that the relatively unadorned style popular with many male 'revival' singers came into fashion post WW II.

This may strike you as heresy, and the emotional response of some people is strikingly clear, but they are reasonable views to take.

I really don't feel that there is anything 'veiled' here: I had hoped that the OP made the sort of approach clear!

Thank you for reading if you did.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:48 PM

Hello Nick

I noted that not all the BL stuff can be heard. I found an explanation in terms of copyright here: https://sounds.bl.uk/Information/About/

Also, as a library one has to be a member, which may affect things.

HE students seem to get greater access, so if you knew somebody maybe you could get better access.

The BL has more or less the only copy of various songs, poems and plays written by a direct ancestor of mine, but as it would cost me hundreds of pounds to get copies and even being a visiting reader is hedged about with difficulties I'll probably never read it.

Do you think it is worth mentioning your lost recording (was Dingles a particular place?) in my amended OP or not?

I don't have a car, so not sure about that!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:39 PM

I actually recorded the night Walter Came to Dingles. Guess who lent the recording out and never got it back? (I think the person in question actually taped over it) Now in retrospect it would have made a valuable addition to the Nick and Mally Dow collection at the BL sound archive.
In those days I did not think anybody was interested. I fully intend to listen to all recordings at the BL however I was quite surprised how many are restricted. Roy Palmer is not by the way, and neither are mine. It would be a help if they were available for download. Why? well you could listen in the car for a start. Hands up how many people tend to listen there rather than competing with the TV at home. Back to Walter Pardon, I've been listening to him since the first LP, and still feel I have plenty to learn from him.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 06:50 PM

And not one of you have had the good grace to even comment
You all out to be ashamed of yourselves
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 06:25 PM

Hello Dave, and thank you for this.


I have found some Roy Palmer recordings on the BL web site; these were not in the resources on the original post, so I've added them to the resource list on my 'master copy'.


https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Roy-Palmer-collection/025M-C1023X0124XX-1000V0

If you haven't heard these before, enjoy!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 06:18 PM

So he wasn't actually that old then...

I know middle aged folks looked ancient to us teenagers back in the 1970s,
but in 1977 - the year of punk rock - he was the same age my mrs is now...

..and she'd get the right hump, if anyone suggested she was getting on a bit, let alone past it...

He could still have gone disco dancing if he wanted to...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 05:53 PM

Apologies that I haven't read everything on this post yet but on the subject of the Waterson's connection in 1976, as part of the American Bicentennial, Roy Harris was tasked with taking a team of English folksingers across to USA to perform as part of the celebrations. This team consisted of The Watersons/Martin Carthy, Pete Elliott of Birtley, Roy and Walter Pardon. Lasting friendships were made on this tour and as a result I saw Walter perform at Birtley folk club, I think, later that year or early 1977; the club was still in the Three Tuns and Walter performed 4 x 15 minute spots. Peter Bellamy also told the story that on that tour of USA Walter met our Queen.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 05:26 PM

[Oh - and he ate like a pig
You should know better Nick, with your background]
i dont think nick said that neither did anyone else

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 03:21 PM

i think we are indebted to Walter, and to all the people who collected and made friends with him

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 03:18 PM

There is a list of the 78 rpms on the Mustrad site. I mentioned this in the OP. As time has passed, we can listen to at least some of the actual tracks online, they have been digitised.

The ref is http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/pardon2.htm#78s

I was surprised how much Irish material there was. There is also some accordion music. Vera Lynn, Paul Robeson, music hall type stuff, Boys of the Old Brigade, a lot of Jack Daly.

Here is a link to one of the pieces, Down in the Field Where the Buttercups Grow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=90&v=_YgVtn2zcj0

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:53 PM

If anybody was really interested in what Walter was about they would have taken up my offer of a copy of the article about him - so far not a peep
It seems it's sufficient to just undermine the fact that he was England's Tradional singers by suggesting that the information given about him was false and he learned what he knew about folk from albums - and he relied on the Watersons for bookings
For Christ's sake
No wonder the revival in England is in the state it is in
Jim   
Oh - and he ate like a pig
You should know better Nick, with your background
Too cold to open a window

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:52 PM

Right I have these vinyl records:

A proper sort ~ Leader LED 2063

Bright Golden store ~ Home made Music (Mike Yates 19830

A Country Life ~ Topic 12 TS 392

Our side of the Baulk ~ Leader LED 2111

I also have MT CD 305-6 "Put a Bit of Powder on it Father" recordings made by Mike Yates between 1978 to 1982 ~ it says! MT 2000 some 49 tracks on 2CDs

Ray

I suspect some re recordings from the vinyl ~ non Mike Yates probably on other vinyl as stated above ~yea not checked that yet!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:25 PM

Did anyone ever check out his record or cassette collection,
if he had one...???

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:16 PM

Another snippet of information for the piece, this one on how Walter got to gigs. Brian Peters recalls that he shared some gigs with the Watersons and travelled with them.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 12:32 PM

Yes! That was in the film about him! Could have been worse, with white bread!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:36 AM

I'm told Walter's favourite tea was a fried egg Brown bread and butter and vinegar. Brings tears to the stomach.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 10:19 AM

sounds like a man after my own heart as that is exactly my lunch today with Birds Custard made from powder.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 09:50 AM

we really are indebted to walter who was determined to keep the songs alive and all who visited him , i remember sam richards used to go and visit him, and hearing him say to tish stubbs we had better eat before we get there, cos walters idea of a meal was a banana

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 09:01 AM

Thanks Nick.

Pending the contribution of Jim Carroll, as predicted by another poster above, I have been thinking of some questions it might be interesting to ask him about Pardon and Jim's work with him.

Perhaps this could be a joint effort, with people chipping in ideas for a final version (which would not necessarily be produced by me)?

Just a thought.

I would like to know

1 When, where, how, Jim first met Pardon.

2 How many times Pardon stayed with Jim and Pat in London.

3 How many times Jim or Jim and Pat visited Pardon in Knapton.

4 When was the last time they met Pardon face to face?

5 Was this before or after their move to Ireland (I have no clear idea of the date of this, sorry)

Also Jim, has posted on Mudcat three sets of Q and A with Jim and Pat doing the Q. I'll call these A, B and C. They seem to have come from notes for a lecture given in Ireland. The thread is Folklore Traditional Singers Talking

A posted 18 May 2014 6.20 am and begins JC If you had the choice, Walter

B posted 19 May 6.04 and begins
10 PUTTING EXPRESSION IN. J C   Do you think that when you started singing in the clubs and festivals, do you think you think you are singing any different than you were singing when you were younger?

C posted 19 May 10.14 am and begins:
09 IN FRONT OF AN AUDIENCE
J C When you're singing at a club or a festival, who do you look at, what do you see when you're singing?

W.P   I don't see anything

J C You don't look at the audience?

W P No, that's why I like a microphone: I'd rather stand up in front of a microphone, than anything, 'cause that's something to look at. That's what I like, this sort of thing in front; you can shut the audience out.

I wonder whether we might learn the dates each of these (ie A B and C was recorded, and perhaps where. It would be interesting to know whether there had been any run through with Pardon. It would be interesting to know what if any planning of questions and subject matter there had been in advance.

Nick: thanks for your input. I will listen again. But Spotify has a very full selection. I had been listening to some of the songs Walter had on 78 rpm. I found some strong stylistic similarities, but I cannot remember which singer it was now. More later on this perhaps. The list is on the Mustrad pages. The material on Walter includes various claims on the origins of his style, which is one of the problems I found when trying to make sense of it all. There are two descending swoops. One not just at the end of a verse but more often. Then another higher pitched one that sounds very music hall to me. I'll try to provide an example. I seem to recall discussing Walter's style with somebody who denied that he used any ornamentation, glad to find you see that he does use some, and it was precisely that feature I found on a 78 song. One problem for me is that sometimes he just sounds a little elderly and for some reason that isn't floating my boat - as they say - just now.



Thanks again to all.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 08:45 AM

Pseudonymous, if your intention is to consider collecting methodology then your subject should be the collectors. The way you have framed this (especially in the light of some of your comments on the other thread from which this one sprang) have made it appear, to me at least, like a thinly-veiled attack on Walter Pardon himself. I am still not entirely convinced this is not the case.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 08:25 AM

When I was resident at Dingles Folk Club circa 1977/8, I often used to MC the club and one night I had the honour of MC-ing and meeting Walter Pardon. I saw his singing style first hand and also his rapport with an audience (a very large one as I remember). He received an extended round of applause at the end of the night.
I found Walters singing style a pleasure to hear, and his approach was much the same as Bob Lewis and Bob Copper, both of whom I met that same year. The Irish in me makes me lean toward the likes of Joe Heaney and Len Graham, and a more lyrical approach with decoration and structural variation. Walter Pardons legacy can be heard in the singing of Damien Barber, Andy Turner Ron Taylor and of course Dick Miles, who take that straight forward unadorned approach to singing that can be so effective. (but not when I try it unfortunately)
Walter Pardon was so very unusual in that he was a relatively modern singer with a huge repertoire of songs, the likes of which had only been found a century earlier in the repertoires of Henry Burstow, or some of the West country singers note by Sharp, Gardiner and Hammond.
Walter always had that extra verse that no-body else had.
The only affectation he used in his singing was his trademark descending intonation at the end of every verse of just about every song. His pacing is a lesson in restraint, and every word is delivered as if it matters, which of course it does. Bellamy believed that Walter Pardon had been ignored by the revival,(related in conversation to me) however I feel Peter was getting rapidly more and more disillusioned as we all know to our cost.
Dig that CD out and listen to Walter again. I always find it worth the effort.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:53 AM

https://theses.ncl.ac.uk/jspui/bitstream/10443/3720/1/Ord%2c%20M.%202017.pdf

Well this will keep me from under anybody's feet for a while!

And it has a reference to Phil Tagg in it. Better and better!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:47 AM

Thank you guest. I'll see what I can find.

Later

I have discovered the work of Matthew Ord who seems to have written on sound recording in the folk revival. Maybe another point of view?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:30 AM

About fifteen years ago somebody - it could have been Dave Hillery - was doing a Doctorate at Durham University on Walter Pardon. Don't have any further details, but he may be worth looking up.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:13 AM

One thing missing from my list of resources (for compiling such a list is one of my aims) is any peer reviewed material. I don't know if anybody has any information on this?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:05 AM

Howard

Thank you for your long and considered posts.

I can see why you don't feel certain stuff is relevant to an evaluation of Walter and his work. However, one of the things I am trying to do is to get an overview of what has been written and I suppose said about Walter.

As I make clear, this material often turns out to present not fact or not just fact but also opinion and, if you like, evaluation. As I begin, I think, to show, differences between the various accounts appear.

It interests me that, as I see it, those people who have considered and written about Pardon's life and singing appear to do so through the lenses of their own 'ideological' views, whether consciously or not. Sometimes, as in the case of Mike Yates, who seems to me to have been one of the best writers on the topic, the writer is explicit about his own approach, at other times this is not the case.

Having read a number of instances on Mudcat in which Pardon has been discussed, I can see that there has been some lively discussion about the uses to which references to Pardon, claims about his thoughts, actions and attitudes, and extracts from interviews have allegedly been used to back up broader generalisations about 'the tradition'/'traditional singers'. I know that some posters on Mudcat have engaged in such discussion, and though the tone might at times have been heated, the discussions do address some difficult questions.

In a broad sense, I am looking towards what you might call a discussion of 'research methods'. This is something like a 'case study'. So if you define 'research' broadly as the generation of new knowledge, then using Pardon's life and work to justify a broader generalisation would be 'research' and questions about the validity etc of this would be questions about research. I am not the first, as I have explained, to ask this sort of question.

Questions about research methods relating to the material produced within the folk scene on Pardon have also already been raised in relation to the collection of recorded material and the use of interviews as basic data for further research. This is clear from comments made by Jim Carroll to which I have already referred.

If in 50 years time, somebody sets out to look back at the material on Pardon, I suppose that they may well have to address these questions about the bias/underlying ideology of those whose work they are using?

They will be facing questions as I have about what is fact, what opinion, what evaluation, what selectively reported etc.

So, to sort of repeat, I am not only interested in Pardon and his singing and life, I am also interested in the uses to which this has been put and the different ways in which he is thought of by those who draw upon his work in support of their own writing/lecturing etc.

I think we can agree that the folk world is one in which there are varying points of view. Most terms used within it are contended, though differences in views on Pardon do not always clearly reflect a particular position.

I have tried to use words carefully here, but know from experience that online discussion is tricky to get right, with the best of intentions.

Thanks all for the contributions.

Regarding who I am. I am me. I have been involved in what you could loosely call folk music on and off all my life, including the dreaded Morris and other branches. There was lots of music in my childhood, and a variety of music was played by my family in past generations. and I have taught my own children songs I learned from my parents, not many but some. I do not sing, but I try to play instruments. I used to have a melodeon but the sound of it drove me bonkers, the family, and the neighbours, up the wall so I sold it (for more than I had paid for it, it being a German made Hohner model). I have had a version song 'collected' though this was co-written and is acknowledged as such in its new home. It reflected the way We saw the world at that time. Whether this would count as 'folk' I do not know, as we first learned it via recorded material albeit of folk performances of various sorts.

I have academic qualifications including a degree in English Literature and, a certificate in Law (post grad level). I have been trained in research methods (different context). I have been an educator with credentials in various sectors. I have taken course on music theory, and so, for example, when references on modes appear in the work on Pardon, I have a good understanding of what this is all about.

I have read quite a few books on folk music of different sorts, and have followed with interest some of the discussions of these on Mudcat.

That is quite enough about me.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 06:38 AM

Thanks to all. Keep the ideas coming!

Ray

I have name-checked the Mustrad articles in the OP, though I since found one I had not seen before.

Sandman

Thanks.

Of course, opinions will differ on Pardon, and this seems to me natural and reasonable. It might I think reasonably be argued that Mike Yates did most to preserve Pardon's repertoire. For he produced two CDs including work which Carroll has stated on Mudcat pages he would not have released because he did not consider it to be folk. I think Yates' view was that it was more important to have a full picture of all the songs Pardon knew.

My OP includes a list of all the people I could find who had recorded Pardon. Mackenzie and Carroll seem to have been unique in a focus on spoken word as opposed to sung recording. I have included references to Mudcat posts in which Carroll pasted some transcripts of Pardon speaking. I have also pointed out that these transcripts are not dated, which I personally think is a gap in the data.


GeoffLawes

Thanks for this. I had already put this as one of two films about Pardon that I had found. It is the one by Edge TV. It is where I found the film of him at his home.   There is also I think a third which is of a memorial event, and features a group of people singing, some of whom use harmony. Martin Carthy is on it, and gives a fine performance.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 03:10 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B95JAQe1Wtc Documentary on Youtube

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:32 AM

and o course peter bellamy and all the revival singers who encouraged walter to sing ou.t

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:29 AM

of course this is a matter of opinion but imo he was not in the same class as harry cox, however we are indebted to carroll and mckenzie for all their recodrings and the noting and preserving of his repertoire

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:24 AM

Pseudonymous are you G Wallis

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:23 AM

I would say check out Musical Traditions ~MT on line and a lot of the Walter Pardon's lyrics should still be there as well as CDs even if early vinyl is like gold

Ray

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 01:46 AM

This is my favourite bit from the Pardon interviews, at the moment.
When asked whether he sings the songs differently now (undated time of interview) than he did in the past, Pardon eventually states: And as I never did sing them, you see, there was no expression I could put in.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 01:43 AM

And of course there is a Carroll/Mackenzie article on Pardon in a collection published by the 'Old Kilforboy Society' that is missing from my references. And a piece on Mustrad, here, with, and no surprise here, reference to 'acrimonious discussion:) Said piece also appears to suggest (happy to be corrected if it does not appear to suggest this) that people have suggested to Carroll that he 'got at' Pardon. Something to add to the resources section of the next draft.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 01:23 AM

Just on the point about commercialisation, and again, without intending to criticise, on Mudcat there is a post relating to one Dave Bulmer by Fred McCormick. Some work of Pardon is on his list of works that Bulmer allegedly (I cannot vouch for the truth or otherwise of this) had the rights to and sat on, 'robbed' is the term McCormick uses. Just a little detail that interested me in the story of Pardon and what I shall loosely in case of upsetting anybody refer to as the 'folk' world.

Hope this is of interest.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 07:54 PM

1) The "Bulmerisation" of Leader's records is a whole can of worms. The Mustrad comment simply refers to Topic being unable to use the tracks they wanted because the copyright was now in the hands of Bulmer, but I don't see what that has to do with any evaluation of Walter Pardon's singing or his role.

2) All these terms can be loaded. By "song carrier" I meant someone who was a source of songs, most if not all of which he had learned orally. By "traditional" I meant someone in an environment where the songs are passed on within a community over a period of time. Is there any question that these don't apply to him?

3) It's not questioned that a great deal of his material came from music hall and other sources. He also sang actual folk songs. Jim has insisted in various threads all over Mudcat that WP made a distinction between them.

4) The collectors have mostly been amateur enthusiasts, not professional ethnolomusicologists. They had no training and learned on the job. No doubt errors were made in the way they conducted their interviews, but that is the material we have, and it's better than nothing.

None of the old singers described their repertoire as "folk songs". That is a term which was applied by the collectors and folk revival enthusiasts

5) If he did "go native" as you put it, so what? In what way are you suggesting this somehow devalues him or his music?

I took the word "polluted" from your original post, albeit in a slightly different context, hence the question mark.

6) Depends what you mean by "commercial". If you want to make money from selling records then issuing recordings of traditional singers is not the way to go about it. These do not have a large market, even among people with an interest in folk. Producing a record costs money and that has to be recovered somehow through sales. These were produced in order to preserve the music and make it more widely available I suggest you read this Living Tradition article about Bill Leader and Topic. I doubt they made anyone very much money.

7) I am sorry you think this is unfair but you give the impression that you think that WP's exposure to 20th century culture somehow devalues him as a traditional singer in some way.

9) Perhaps academic was not the best word. My point, as made above, is that traditional singers did not use this term which was what the collectors called it. WP apparently regarded this as referring to songs he had learned at school rather than his own songs, but I am not sure what point you are making out of this.

10) Jim is probably the best person to respond to this

11) This is quite a small number of people we are talking about and their biases are probably fairly well known even when they are not made expressly clear

12) Again, this is for Jim to answer but I would refer to my answer to point 4.

I am still not sure just what you are trying to find out. On the other thread you seemed to say you were not impressed by his singing. Many who have listened to a lot of traditional singers would not agree with you, but that is a matter of taste. So what is it that you think needs re-evaluating? I still get the sense that you question whether he was really "traditional" or that you feel that the presence of so many songs in his repertoire which a not folk somehow disqualifies him as a traditional folk singer. Or is it that he did not exist in an isolated bubble but had contact with wider musical culture and eventually the folk scene?