Review: Walter Pardon - Research

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:18 AM

Sorry I'll get me coat.
Very wise Nick, this thread has become a musical 'Lord of the Flies' with the head of England's finest traditional singer on the top of the 'pig-pole', thanks too you

"listen jim, we all like walters singing,"]
Patronising shire Dick - you're enjoying kicking this dead old man as much as the rest of them - Dave too
What the he'll's the matter with you all - it's not full moon again is it !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:08 AM

Egg, brown bread and Vinegar! No bigger than the average pub starter. Does that mean Walter lived in a 'World without Courses'
Sorry I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:53 AM

Walter only ate even bananas, he would never have eaten an odd banana.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:43 AM

listen jim, we all like walters singing, we all have the greatest respect for his preserving of the repertoire, we all think it good that bellamy and others looked after Walter, now go and listen to the link and if after doing so you still continue this tom foolery. i suugest you desist

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:41 AM

Come on then Jim, how is discussing a very innocent comment made by a good friend of Walter's in any way "corpse kicking" or nasty? She said what he liked for his tea and what she always used to give him. I, nor anyone on this thread as far as I can see, can see anything wrong with it. I am more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and let you convince us that discussing what a man ate is denigrating and abusing him.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:33 AM

jim for fuck sake you are being ridiculous, no one is kicking Walter.Jim you are being so silly the best thing you can do is look at the link and the people recalling walters memory fondly.[ including pauline godbold talk about tilting at windmills. you have not looked at the film and yet you continue to make ill informed comments about it, and the people who recall Walter with fondness, stop wasting everyones time, go and look at the link

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:19 AM

"You are for it now, Ray. Claiming that the bananas that Walter ate were odd..."
See what I mean
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:19 AM

"You are for it now, Ray. Claiming that the bananas that Walter ate were odd..."
See what I mean
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:19 AM

"I like Jim, whether he likes me liking him or not.."
I don't care one way or the other PFR - I've never been here to be liked or otherwise; my sole interest is to promote the music I have invested my life in, to pass on what I believe I've learned and to learn more from people I belived (and no longer do) shared my interest

I find your comment about my social like both arrogant and unfair - - you want to get to know me socially, ask someone who has been in contact with me personally
My PMs now number 582, overwhelmingly messages sharing ideas outside the nastiness of some of these discussions, or giving access to our archive, or arranging to add to it with those far more interested in folk song than those who take part in these appalling brawls
You want too know me in a relaxed mood - there's enough of that for me on the jokes thread

I came here for serious discussions on folk song - I've been pretty depressed at what I found
The ones I immediately too to have either passed on or moved on - Sandy Paton, Mike Grosvenor Myer, Malcolm Douglas..... the few others hardly ever post nowadays - wonder why !!
I've long become used to tthe fact that an intelligent discussion on the groundbreaking work done by MacColl, Seeger, Parker and The Critics... is a waste of time - too many small minds with big chips on their shoulders
Pity

The latest disgusting kicking of our friend of two decades, Walter Pardon, has finished it for me
First he was kicked off a thread because his singing was no longer relevant to today's revival - I'd long suspected that anyway
Then, this wonderfully intelligent , knowledgeable and generous old man who won over everyone he came into contact with was, was too stupid to work out for himself that the songs he referred to (and listed iin his notebooks) as 'folk' were unique, because he sang 'other songs'   
He was apparently gullible enough to be influenced and naive enough to be led away by ruthless "middle-class" researchers and collectors
The final straw was this disguising presentation of an ignorant peasant who ate anything he could lay his hands on
Walter would rather have cut his tongue our with a bread-knife rather than give offence to anybody - would that some of those better-educated, 'more enlightened' inheritors of his generosity treated him to the same respect he treated everybody he met.
If you believe continuing shit like "Ah, butter on the brown bread - and the piles!" to be 'petty', god help the recipients of your knowledge on social history'

I don't know whether I'll post again - I shall avoid some of those who I have met on these discussions like the plague - I find them insulting, every bit as inflexible as they accuse me of being, and largely lacking in knowlege and interest in the music I believe to be folk
Life's too short to bother with people who behave like this

I've spent the last week or so re-arranging my PCloud in order to make it an access facility for singers, manly because my trip to Belfast made it plain there are those out there promoting folk song, running classes, helping new young people become singers.... everything needed for a healthy future for folk songs
Maybe we can persuade some of them to send missionaries to England to promote an interest in their wonderful traditional songs and singers beyond what someone 'Chinese whispered' they used to have for breakfast when they were still around and being generous in giving us the songs they loved.
I thought I knew the Godbolds - if they are the source of that appalling rumour, they must be different ones who doted oo Walter and would never have spread such nasty and represented rumours about that wonderful generous old man - they'd have been as ashamed to have been linked to such a story as those still reveling in it here patently are not

Some here (far too few) have hooked up to our on-live PCloud Song facility -, which is now being re-organsised, extended and made more user friendly
When it is completed, I will re-post a new link - those who have my e-mail address can re-apply
I've realised it's an execise in pissing against the wind to as some people to take a serious and responsible attitude to 'The People's Art'

I'll leave you to your corpse-kicking
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:54 AM

You are for it now, Ray. Claiming that the bananas that Walter ate were odd...

:D

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:51 AM

So we have established that Walter's eating habits were nothing special and he may have eaten an odd banana

So what else might we look at? Yes I found his singing style and pronunciation easy to follow, indeed some of the record sleeves carry the words ~ quite a boon really

Ray

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:44 AM

The Angel fisheries in Whitby has sugar on the counter along with salt and vinegar. Of course the inevitable happened to someone I was with and they put sugar on their chips. The girl behind the counter commented that was always happening. Wouldn't you think that they would make a slight change to the arrangement?

Anyway. They don't sell mice. With or without vinegar.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:09 AM

on the subject of Bananas, Billy Cooper the hammered dulcimer from hingham norfolk, who taught billy bennington, was a greengrocer and was known as banana cooper, because he used to sell dodgy overripe bananas.
Before anyone accuses me of being disrespectful, i had relatives who lived in the village of hingham who remembered billy practising his dulcimer on summer evenings and telling me what a delight it was to listen to him.
Jim some of us had connections with east anglia long before you came on the scene, and all we are doing iis telling it how it was. I only hope Walter purchasesd quality bananas for his lunch, and never had the nisfortune to encounter one of billys bananas

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:31 AM

Take it all back, it features some analysis of Pardon's singing, comparison sections. Interesting to read. Makes point I did that there are some conflicting views …

Also provides a couple of further references

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:06 AM

By the way I found David Hillery's thesis: it was as I suspected Newcastle University not Durham. Excited to read it: it isn't about Pardon but about vernacular song from a North Yorkshire Hill Farm. I'll be interested to see how he goes about collecting and analysing his data.

By the way, on one of the Roy Palmer tapes, Pardon explains that the farms including his had been smallholdings, and that they shared the barn. This may explain how his ancestor had the 'property' qualification to get on the electoral register pre the universal franchise, if indeed it is as I suspect the same ancestor. This fits with the fact that Billy was in a union for farm labourers and small holders. It may be that Billy came in the latter category.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 10:12 PM

Howard

You appear to be challenging what we mean by "tradition" and "traditional singer". Nothing wrong with that, but please explain what you understand them to mean, or at least what is wrong with the current understanding of them.

Reasonable question. Ever encountered Wittgenstein on the meanings of words?

1 As I tried to explain, I'm interested in how different definitions have influenced the way Pardon has been written about and described and presented.

2 I am more interested in what happens, which may or may not then end up having a more or less useful label attached to it than in setting out with some definition (derived from 'faith' or Marxist base-superstructure thinking, or whatever) and seeing the world through that particular lens.

To try to make this point: how would you define a martian wattquaxl bird? How can we discuss it unless we define it. A poor parody but maybe it makes a point??

3 So I don't think I have any particular preference among the options.

4 I'd even be happy with 'something with an unknown composer' if that made enough people happy, but it won't of course.

5 It's looking as if there are no new references for Pardon, though having read Ord's work on the Revival I have thought that the covers of the CDs etc are part of the message that was put out about him. Ord is fascinating if you like a long read and don't mind the odd bit of theory.

Sorry not to be more helpful, not being evasive, just pretty open minded about the topic (when not thinking of language games) today. Might get all evangelical on a particular defn another day, but mayby not.

It is beginning to look like I'm not going to get any more material on Pardon. I cannot find that thesis that was mentioned. There are a couple of articles mentioned on Mustrad but I think these may be ones already on that site.

Thanks again to everybody who has sustained what has been an interesting and actually quite civilised discussion punctuation by the odd bit of bonkers humour. Pity we cannot manage this more often.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 08:34 PM

Ah, butter on the brown bread - and the piles!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 08:28 PM

I like Jim, whether he likes me liking him or not..

But as much as I'd benefit from knowing him in real life,
I suspect he could be a bit of a high maintenance friend to be around socially...???
Would I be constantly on egg shells thinking any innocent thing I say could be taken the wrong way,
and he'd be off on one...

I had enough of mates like that when I was younger and more patient...
Even worse when you're gigging in the same band..
one of 'em was a right sulker...

However, if I was active in organizing a social history project,
[something I've done in the past..]
recording the memories of very elderly folks,
some with confusion and more aggressive symptoms of dementia,
tolerance and empathy would be essential skills...

It's too easy for us to fall out with each other over petty matters blown up out of proportion
in the hothouse of mudcat,
but we need to remember we are an aging membership.
Some of us are simply getting crankier - nature is unkind like that.

So full respect to song collectors carefully persuading old singers
to trust them recording their memories..

One older lady I was sent to record,
[a retired shop keeper, very Conservative..]
was so vain, mean spirited, and vindictive,
I've avoided being involved in such history projects ever since...
Especially after I had to spend hours afterwards in sound editing, listening to her voice on repeat...

So I definitely appreciate the hard work of our folk song collectors...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 07:55 PM

Ah I've read the previous page now and see that pfr has made a similar comment. Well that's probably 100

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 07:49 PM

I've just dipped into the last page of this discussion out of interest.

Judging by that brief impression it appears that people are having a civilised discussion - arguing generally politely, contesting each other's statements, raising interesting points. Then Jim arrives all bluster and antagonism (maybe there was some exchanges earlier that led to this?).

I find this sad as Jim obviously has lots of information to impart and is doing a great job at preserving the tradition. Please Jim realise we are all on the same side - your interjections sometimes bear the mark of a troll - deliberately trying to provoke dissent which others rise to - I very much hope that is not what you are trying to do but you seem to continually wish to stir up trouble - surely of no benefit to anyone. Accept that others have different views to your own but discuss them rationally. We would all get a lot more out of any discussion if you did rather than continually fly off the handle. My comment is meant kindly - please don't fly off the handle with me

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 07:07 PM

Or maybe gets the wrong stick altogether. It's gone pleasantly quiet! Maybe that nobody has hit himself over the head with the wrong stick. We can but hope.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 06:57 PM

..As long as nobody gets the wrong end of the stick
and is offended thinking we shamefully suggested Walter ate mice...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 06:49 PM

Sorry Howard, I see what you mean now. By 'traditional' in this case, I will have meant older than the turn of the 20th century. So in the case where a tradition is seen as something that has duration through time, earlier examples. Hoping you find the point less extraordinary now, and apols for any misunderstanding attributable to my too hasty and ill=formed posts. Thanks again for the discussion. No time to think about other points you make now: all interesting.

By the way it was a fib about the egg. That was yesterday, today was a chippy tea and in future I shall put the sugar on the banana and the vinegar on the chips.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 06:28 PM

"you pile on the vinegar on the piles"

Our local chip shop would definitely throw you out
for trying to do that at the counter...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 06:26 PM

Vinegar on a mouse in Yorkshire? Never. Yorkshire relish surely.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 06:23 PM

Pseudonymous, I find your claim that there are no recordings of traditional singers to be "extraordinary" because there are very clearly plenty of recordings (albeit not enough). The difference between us seems to be that you do not regard these singers as "traditional". So what do you mean by that term? When you say there are no recordings of traditional singers, what sort of singers do you have in mind? Or are you saying the entire concept of a tradition is a myth, fuelled by ideology?

1 What makes people label those whose singing was recorded at the turn of the 20th century 'traditional' instead of just people whose singing was recorded?

Because they were part of a culture where singing was part of the life of a community, and where songs were passed around between singers, usually orally. We know this because that is what the singers themselves told the collectors. That is what I, and I believe most people with an interest in the subject, understand by "tradition". What do you understand by it?

2 How when we listen to a recording made of an elderly person at the turn of the 20th century might we somehow be back in the early 19th

I think you have misread me. I was saying that although Joseph Taylor was recorded in 1908 he was then in his mid-70s, so his singing can be regarded as an example of a singer from the second half of the 19th century.

Regarding 2, it seems to me that the backward jump in time is an inference. It would be an inference to say that a singing style recorded at the later time enabled us to peer back into earlier singing styles.

I agree. As a young man Joseph Taylor would have learned his singing from earlier generations so we can surmise that his style was influenced by early 19th century singers, but that can only be speculation. We can't know what those previous generations sounded like.

You appear to be challenging what we mean by "tradition" and "traditional singer". Nothing wrong with that, but please explain what you understand them to mean, or at least what is wrong with the current understanding of them.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 06:18 PM

what does the vinegar go on, well apparantly its a tradtional use for piles, you pile on the vinegar on the piles, its similar to a yorkshire tradtional remedy for whhoping cough in which it was the custom to eat a dead mouse, but themouse was better with some vinegar

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 06:01 PM

Just to help out Pseudo. Traditional refers to an accident of birth. A singer is a Traditional singer if he or she has been born into a family who sing songs and a member of that family passes them on to you. So I learned a number of music Hall songs Traditionally. The next qualification is Folk Singer. I have met numerous Traditional Folk Singers and learned songs face to face, but it does not mean that I am one. I am a revivalist, and about as close to the tradition as any one can get without being born to it. The third unwritten qualification is style. There are Traditional singers who have lost their family style of singing, and sing with a style gleaned from country music or art music.
Walter Pardon was born to the music, had a vast repertoire and an exemplary Traditional singing style. That's why he's important.
It's as easy as that imho.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 05:50 PM

raw bacon rind, tick.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 05:25 PM

What does the vinegar go on?

My Dad used to eat raw bacon rind and bits of bread with salt on. He was Polish though. Or is that racist and abusive?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 05:16 PM

Thanks Howard,

Not sure why you are finding stuff so 'extraordinary' when up to the point when you get theoretical (which I think you do) I agree. We are looking back to the early days of recording, turn century. So nothing extraordinary there.

The discussion I referred to interested me because some people found the singing very high, and this did not fit what they expected to hear and some started to find reasons why the recording did not fit what they thought that the facts should be.

The piece by Matthew Ord helps us to see that a tape recorder is not quite the 'pure' record of what was there one might assume, any more than 'the camera never lies'. This was one of the interesting parts of the package. Indeed, one thing MacColl did in the radio shows was apply techniques from film to sound recordings, a sort of montage technique. Yet it gives a sense of being 'real life', the nitty gritty..... I do think he was a clever person and very good at using modern technologies. Maybe today he would be a film maker?

For me the questions about what you put as I understand it might include:

1 What makes people label those whose singing was recorded at the turn of the 20th century 'traditional' instead of just people whose singing was recorded?

2 How when we listen to a recording made of an elderly person at the turn of the 20th century might we somehow be back in the early 19th, for this is how I have read your comment? (please correct me if this is not the way you intended it to be read)

Regarding 2, it seems to me that the backward jump in time is an inference. It would be an inference to say that a singing style recorded at the later time enabled us to peer back into earlier singing styles. This is perhaps a good example of the sort of problem indicated in the heading to my original piece, it's about fact, inference, theory, ideology.

I could say it was 'extraordinary' that people made leaps like this, but it seems to be the way it sometimes goes...

Tonight I had fried egg, brown bread and butter, vinegar and an orange afterwards. Then a banana and some tinned custard. Love to say there are no flies on me but maybe this would be a step too far (swats the air).

Thanks to everybody for the discussion.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 04:49 PM

Time flies like an arrow

Fruit flies like a banana

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 04:22 PM

I take exception to bein accused of denigrating Walter because I said he used to like a banana .

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 04:10 PM

Jim, Pauline Godbold did not make any denigrating comment but stated a fact.
Jim you visited and befriendec Walter after PETERBELLAMY discovered him as I understand it Cliff and Pauline Godbold [ woman intervoiewd in film], knew him for years before this. Jim would you kindly desist.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 03:54 PM

LOL well posted Punk.

Just another thought. I never saw a traditional singer perform in the way that Walter did. Harry Cox had that 'far away' look in his eyes as he sang and so did Bob Scarce.(That was on film though) Johnny Doughty was the epitome of the showman singer when I saw him, most of the travellers take their turn seated round the fire. Walter Pardon stood erect but relaxed with his hands behind his back, and seemed totally in control of everything and everyone around him. Quite an experience for me as a young singer.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 03:08 PM

SHOCK HORROR - Folk singer eats banana...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Freddie Starr munching a hamster pales in comparison...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:57 PM

"As far as I am aware, nobody knows much about what traditional singing might have sounded like. There are discussions about this on Mustrad too. There are no recordings of it, obviously."

I find that an extraordinary statement. Obviously, we only have recordings from the time recording technology became available, but that takes us back to at least 1908 when Grainger recorded Joseph Taylor. Taylor was then in his mid-70s so he is an example of a singer from the second half of the 19th century. Grainger recorded a number of different singers and musicians at around that time and the British Library has 340 of his recordings.

Percy Grainger collection

We have all the volumes of VoTP, as well as other recordings by Topic, Leader, Veteran, Mustrad and other labels which cover the 20th century and right up to the present day. These are just examples which are commercially available, it doesn't include those in private collections or libraries. If you don't regard them as "traditional singers" you obviously have a very different idea of what that means than I, and I believe most others, do.

If we are to have a meaningful discussion, will you please explain what you take "traditional singer" to mean, and why the recordings I have mentioned are not of traditional singers?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:53 PM

I suggest you take it up with the lady that made the comment about his favourite tea on the documentary then, Jim. Either she is mistaken or you are. Either way, it is not an offensive comment.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:49 PM

Thanks Vic you're welcome.
I suppose I had better explain the Walter Pardons tea comment in terms that even Jim Carroll can understand, for the sake of the integrity of this thread. It was a quote from the documentary available on YouTube, my comment afterwards was supposed to be light hearted. The guest who commented afterwards seemed to get it.
I just can not be bothered to get into another fruitless argument with the above mentioned. There is an old saying 'Never argue with a fool' so I think I'll take heed. So maybe when the squealing has subsided after the inevitable comeback to this post we can return to an interesting subject.
Back on thread then...
I still feel that it is unwise to over complicate our reaction to any singer. I had a conversation with Roy Palmer on that very subject, and there's the rub as he said. How subjective can we safely be as Folklorists. I still have not worked that one out.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:47 PM

Jim

"Christ knows where that came from anyway - it's pure nasty invention and totally unnecessary - and you know it

With your expertise on all things Walter Pardon I am surprised(?) at your ignorance as to the source of this 'pure nasty invention'.

It is from a short film readily available on You Tube and was related by a neighbour I believe from the same village who it seems sometimes invited Walter to stay for a meal and this was one of his favourites.
I suspect she knew Walter even more than you did.

Why do you stay permanently in attack mode? Try lightening up a little.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:43 PM

"Oh FFS, get a grip, Jim."
No Dave - you get a grip - I came to discuss folk song not witness the abuse of old singers
Yes - he was a human being - is that how you treat your fellow human beings
I don't know where Nick got his information but what he described was as far from his favourite food as you can get
Walter was a very plain and frugal eater - an old bachelor who fended fot himself - not the figure of fun you have chosen to make him
You really have no shame - have you
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:43 PM

"Oh FFS, get a grip, Jim."
No Dave - you get a grip - I came to discuss folk song not witness the abuse of old singers
Yes - he was a human being - is that how you treat your fellow human beings
I don't know where Nick got his information but what he described was as far from his favourite food as you can get
Walter was a very plain and frugal eater - an old bachelor who fended fot himself - not the figure of fun you have chosen to make him
You really have no shame - have you
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:41 PM

jim, you are being ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:34 PM

Oh FFS, get a grip, Jim. The documentary linked above mentions that Walter liked brown bread and butter with a fried egg and vinegar. It also mentions that he used to cycle to the local ironmongers on a Saturday, had a green gate and popped in to his neighbours for a cup of tea regularly. Are you going to take offence at all of these? These facts just add to what is known and give people a feel for who Walter was, not just what he did.

We understand. He meant a lot to you and did a lot for traditional folk music. But he was, after all, just human. The documentary pointed out on a couple of occasions that he was down to earth and told it as it was. Which is exactly what Nick did when he mentioned Walter's favourite food. I doubt very much Walter would have taken offense at much. You have made it an art form.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:02 PM

Nick Dow -
I'm not wildly keen on Phoebe Smith, which for a man who has been with Gypsies for over 30 years is quite an admission, however I love Caroline Hughes and have met her family and friends. End of story for me.
I agree totally with this statement, Nick. To my ears, Caroline is the most moving of all the English gypsy singers. Yet I reckon that if you played recordings of Phoebe & Caroline to 100 people with an interest in traditional song, then the vast majority would favour Phoebe because, palpably, Phoebe has the better voice. It is s combination of several subtle factors that she has in her treatment of songs that make Caroline's nicotine-riddled voice and makes her, for me, such an exciting singer.

Oh... and whilst I am addressing you, those tracks of Gypsy singers that you copied on to my laptop in Tenterden are exquisite. Mary Lee and Bartley Wilson - both superb.

Whoops! Serious thread drift. Perhaps we need yet another new thead to deal with this.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:47 PM

Dick They were probably all people existing in a wider social context,
not isolated in lives that fit a folk theorists idealised view of who and how they should be...???

However, back in the 1960s I did have older family
who were so deeply rural and detached from the modern world,
that they could have been living in a previous century
where piped water, gas supplies, and electricity had yet to be invented...

As far as I know they were not singers or custodians of other folklore...
Just ordinary folks cut off from the modern world, scratching a living off the river and fields...
Of no interest to song collectors...

But, then again, neither had they been discovered,
and had their lives documented by big city social anthropologists...

But if they had, they'd have made sure they made as much cash as they could
off gullible city slickers...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:43 PM

"Why should i be ashamed of mentioning walters fondness for bananas"
Why the **** should anyone be so ***** rude to comment on his eating habits especially ion these terms
"I'm told Walter's favourite tea was a fried egg Brown bread and butter and vinegar. Brings tears to the stomach."
Christ knows where that came from anyway - it's pure nasty invention and totally unnecessary - and you know it
I wonder how Nick would react to travellers being described in such a degrading way - or do I !!
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:14 PM

Why should i be ashamed of mentioning walters fondness for bananas, the human touch, it makes no difference to my respect for his repertoire. Harry Cox was an animal lover,they were people not just singers

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 12:58 PM

Relevance of MacColl to thread: links between his teachings and the approaches of some of those who marketed and lionised Walter Pardon.

I think MacColl wrote some nice songs. It's not a topic I would want to get into too much here as there is enough about him on Mudcat and it quickly gets heated. Which seems to prove my thinking but …

On sleeve notes, I found out that these have mixed worth quite a long time ago in a different context, and that folklorists do not always do their research properly or interrogate those whose writing they take bits from as if they were gospel. If I remember correctly, this is one area relating to Pardon - and generally - where there have been lively and at times acrimonious discussion- as evidenced on the Mustrad site. One mans' carefully researched notes are another man's set of semi-literate notes so full of mistakes that it is impossible to list them all. Another cite of contested viewpoints within the folklore world.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 12:49 PM

These words again: 'trad', 'the tradition'. Theoretical concepts.

MacColl seems to have had great leadership qualities: he laid down a particular aesthetic, which perhaps is best understood in terms of the context in which he worked, and it seems from these threads that he acquired a set of devoted 'acolytes', as well carving out a career and a decent livelihood for himself.