BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)

Subject: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 06:08 PM

This one is meant to be serious,
because of something that happened on Christmas Day.
No surprise, of course,
if a post appears that is an attempt to deflate this thread;
but, meant to be serious.

Boston, Massachusetts witnessed a Christmas Day tragedy
and if you were near here and had access to mass media at the time,
you know the story I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 07:15 PM

In mass media terms, this story is recent enough
that it is easy to find multiple versions of reports.

I looked long and hard at those details embedded in the reports
concerning witnesses and first responders.

There is a bus stop, if not a bus station, close to the parking garage,
from the high roof of which the tragedy played out.
I found an account that one of Boston's MBTA buses had just pulled in; the poor bus driver parked the bus, leaped out of the bus,
and ran over to the sidewalk below the garage.
By then at least one child was already on the pavement, dying.

Photographs can be found of
Boston Police Commissioner William Gross (pronounced grawss by the way),
in civilian clothes (it was Christmas Day),
with one hand covering his mouth
as he stands by the security guards,
looking over the sidewalk scene.

Then there were the first responders who had to take in the three deaths.
And this is what I indicate -- meant to indicate --
by "powerless,"
the people who would have done anything to help
but it was too late.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 07:53 PM

Why are you posting this here in this vein?

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 11:05 PM

Yeah, it's probably more suited for Facebook, dontchathink? Maybe a little too smarmy for Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 11:14 PM

Separated by a common language, are we?

I don't speak Facebook.
I don't do Facebook.
I believe I know what smarmy means.
I don't know what the questions mean.

Are you asking me
to come out from behind the story in the news
and talk about my feelings,
so as to make this
"one of those stupid navel-gazing threads" ?
Because that can be arranged.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 11:38 PM

I don't understand why there appears to be an issue with this post. How different is it to the Australian bushfires thread? It's a tragedy close to the home of one or a few Mudcatters.

I was going to post here and ask why Steve Shaw needed to ask the question he did without making any explanation about his reasoning behind the question and without contributing to the discussion or topic of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 12:35 AM

You're right, keb. That's how I feel - powerless. The electoral districts in my state are skewed so that right-wing country folk can vote their reps into state government. They then pass lax gun-control laws so that drugged-dazed felons in the cities can buy automatic weapons on the street and shoot up whoever they choose.

Yes, I feel powerless.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 09:36 AM

I think we might be talking about empathy here. One feels enormous sadness at such events, but can do nothing about them.
I understand how an onlooker at the scene would be absolutely horrified and distressed, but their feeling of powerlessness would make it even worse.
I wonder what the poor woman was going through in her life and in her mind to do such a thing. If only someone could have noticed that she wasn't coping, was being abused, was mentally unwell, or whatever,
timely intervention/help might have prevented the tragedy.
I'm not on Facebook either keberoxu, and I actually think this is a very good topic for us to consider and discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 12:56 PM

I simply asked a question of a person who has form when it comes to heart-on-sleeve, that's all. Nothing wrong with a bit of that, sometimes. I don't have issues with discussing individual tragedies. I'd point out out that we do live in a world in which there are thousands of outrages involving the deaths of children all over the world every year, many perpetrated directly or indirectly as a consequence of actions by western nations. This one is a month old. In the intervening month, thousands of children have died who shouldn't have died. We could be talking about how we get back the power to do something about it. But fire away. That's my last post on this topic, and I only responded now because I appear to be under attack.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Helen
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 01:03 PM

I'm not on Facebook either. I like clear, calm, rational, analytical and compassionate discussions based on respect and integrity. That's why I come to Mudcat.

I agree with you Senoufou: that sense of powerlessness relating to empathy and also the overwhelming wish to turn back time so that the person's grave situation could be recognised and helped in some way.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 01:08 PM

Do you know Steve, as I get older (and older!) I'm starting to feel exactly as you point out. So many millions of needless deaths, terrible suffering, anguish and pain all over the world. It's overwhelming at times, an enormous Vale of Tears, and not being immensely rich I can do very little to help.
Therefore, one can only do tiny things for one or two people. It's all I can manage, and I often feel very powerless.

I do hope you didn't feel attacked by me?

We lost our last cat just before Christmas, and the grief was almost beyond bearing. One could point out that one little cat is nothing compared to the vast numbers of suffering/dying people the world over, and I agree. But it's all relative isn't it? And if that poor lady in the incident referred to by keberoxu had been helped in perhaps just small ways, this may not have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 02:17 PM

No, it wasn't you. Grrr, you made me post here again! Below-the-line can be a challenging place at times, as I know only too well. Even in the joke thread occasionally...

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Helen
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 02:17 PM

Is heart-on-sleeve a bad thing? :-D

A few years ago I drove home from work and turned the corner into my street to see a large number of ambulances and police cars. A young high school woman had committed suicide. Even now the people who knew her ask themselves how they could have helped her, how they could have recognised her situation, whether they could have changed the outcome in a positive way, etc, etc. I'll remember that day very vividly for the rest of my life, even though I had only met her a few times.

As I turned the corner, I was listening to my car stereo with a Vin Garbutt song playing. The chorus of the song had the young woman's name in it. I didn't realise that until after I found out the reason for the emergency vehicles.

The problem with empathy, wearing our hearts on our sleeves, can be knowing when to disconnect and protect our own well being. We can still care, we can still show empathy and try to look out for other people, but we will be no use if we are a mess ourselves.

In Australia, there is a project called RU OK aimed at being aware of other people around us who may be not feeling OK or may even be considering suicide.

Senoufou, in the last 18 months three of our old cats have passed. It is never easy, and some people don't understand how upsetting it is to lose a close companion just because it is an animal and not a human, but cats and dogs show unconditional love if they are treated well. That's a valuable experience in life.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Helen
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 02:19 PM

I'm guessing it was me, asking you a question about the question you asked. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 02:23 PM

Un oeuf said (see joke thread)...

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Helen
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 02:29 PM

No egg on our faces then, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 05:44 PM

Egg jokes are never what they're cracked up to be. In fact, I'm thinking of shelling out for a new yolk book. Omeletting you take the thread on from here...

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 05:51 PM

Hehe, I think you poached those gags from a kiddies' comic Steve!

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 06:13 PM

I'm desperately trying to avoid jokes about getting laid...far too old for that kind of gag...You can beat an egg but you can't beat a good... Stoppit, Steve...

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Helen
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 06:24 PM

Q: Waiter, are these eggs fresh?
A: Don't ask me, I just laid the table.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 06:37 PM

Heheh. Sorry, keb...maybe we should stop there...

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 06:45 PM

Letting off steam, a safety valve -- a perfectly healthy thing to do.
And humo[u]r is a better way than most to do it.

"Form": I have something on my record?
you have no idea ...

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 06:47 PM

I don't see a productive line of discussion. Infanticide, suicide and infanticide/suicide are all common but there is no useful generalization you can make about them. I got a story from Texas in my FB feed this morning about a mother addicted to amphetamine who has smothered her three children. There was a Scottish case a few years ago of a wonan who murdered her young son for equally unknowable reasons.

When people die of capitalism - despair and destitution - you can say, yes there were things that could have been done, and learn something. But suicide and infanticide are end results and there's nothing there to analyze.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 07:49 PM

I get that, Jack, but there's nowt wrong with adding a little layer of human subjectivity. Yeah, not a lot to analyse. Which is why I asked the question in post three....

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 08:33 PM

We've been through this before at Mudcat, and it's something that makes me nervous. Tragedy happens everywhere, and the impact of it gets cheapened when it's reported en masse on a variety of Websites. We've had very nice people here in the past who wanted us to grieve over a new tragedy twice a day. It got old very fast.

If there's an issue to discuss, that's a good thing. Bring it up and explain the question you want to discuss, and have an idea ahead of time where you want to go with the discussion. Looking at the first two posts in this thread, it's just another sad thing that happened - nothing that can lead to a productive discussion.

There's plenty of sadness that happens in our world, far more than we can deal with. Repeating it in volume serves no purpose - it cheapens it. If you want to discuss something, make sure it's discussable. Otherwise, it's just moving the air around.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 08:50 PM

My objection is that it's just parroting news. It's not *discussing* anything, just sticking posters up for people to get upset about. But I'm used to it enough that I can usually ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 09:39 PM

That's exactly it. That's what I think I meant...

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 04:16 AM

Any (wo)man's death saddens me, but so does a burgeoning population. The latter will lead to many more deaths, slowly and almost imperceptibly, (but not to science). And far away, so that's OK?

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 01:02 PM

It has dawned on me that my years of living in New Mexico
have left me with a trigger in the psychological sense.
And that the 2019 Christmas tragedy triggered it.
It dates from about 1992, and it made national headlines;
I was an Albuquerque resident at the time.

Los Angeles Times: The Power of Grief

At the time, there was positively no escape from the consequences of this fatal collision.
What you don't get from this report, as long ago as it was,
is that the story lasted a long, long time in the media.
If I recall right,
the defendant, who is still alive,
went to trial for the incident THREE TIMES:
hung jury, change of venue, double jeopardy, you name it, it happened.

To shorten the long story, the defendant served time in the penitentiary, but not the whole time of the sentence.
2009, Albuquerque: He was released on parole and has since kept the lowest possible profile.

Here is how the relatives of those killed in the collision
deal with the Christmas holiday twenty years on.

And here is the defendant's son and namesake today.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 01:17 PM

Here is a whole bunch of cases, if anyone is looking for other things to be upset by. I mean, if you don't have anything else going on...

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 02:47 PM

There is a guideline for not speaking of certain procedures.
So I will not speak of the procedure, not at all.

While waiting for the inevitable, however, a reflection.
One reason that the posts on this thread have followed the course they have,
is a consequence of addressing a topic from a certain direction.

The results might have been very different
if the same topic had been approached from the reverse.
This was explained to me, patiently and non-judgmentally,
by somebody who knows me unusually well,
and who knows how to make suggestions from a place of compassion.
(I really really miss this person right now.)

"You do everything backwards," this person told me cheerfully,
explaining that most other people
approach a situation from the opposite place that I do.
And this gave me the detachment -- and humor --
needed to look at the problem from a fresh perspective.

Using the OP and my succeeding posts as an example.
The facts and the data are presented first,
from sources with some verification in place.
Then there are remarks on how two situations are related.
There is my admission that a trigger in my psychological makeup, from my past,
links the two situations in my emotions and thoughts.
I comment on the survivors and witnesses.
And I might say a word or two about how I feel.

The results might have been very different
had the OP focussed on my feelings, my emotions,
what it means to me,
and had later posts gradually introduce
the journalist links.

Or, the procedure might have been inevitable, regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Helen
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 05:50 PM

keberoxu, I think I understand what you intended from your OP and putting forward facts first is ok in my book. I think I would have done it in a similar way although I possibly would have indicated early in the thread why I thought it was worthwhile to open a discussion about that event, i.e. how reading about the event affected me, my feelings, emotions, and maybe a hint at any triggers relating to my own personal history, without having to reveal personal information on a public forum.

It's not easy talking in public about feelings and emotions, and some public events reported in the media can trigger strong feelings, emotions and deep seated responses.

I don't see any problem with the OP or the intentions of the thread as I read it. I don't see why other people have taken issue with it. But each to his own, I suppose.

One of my strong thoughts about the recent event your OP referred to is that I would be surprised if the issue of domestic violence or abuse in some form or other is not associated with the people involved in the event. There may be a hidden undercurrent to the story. We may never know the full story.

Domestic violence is a serious issue and sometimes it is not physical violence but psychological or emotional abuse instead, or sociopathic manipulation of a person's sense of her/himself.

That's the trigger which harks back to my own past experience, although I had no children - still have none - and was financially independent. I high-tailed it out of that relationship not too long after I put the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together and realised what that poor-excuse-for-a-man was really up to.

You have my support in posting this topic.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 05:59 PM

There are not satisfactory words, besides Thank You,
to express my gratitude to those members
whose posts here are supportive and empathetic.
Your encouragement is something to cherish.

There are some obvious connections between
the two different stories about which I posted.

One occurred on Christmas Eve/midnight-ish;
the other, on Christmas Day in broad daylight.

In both cases, a mother and all of her children
were killed,
and the husband/father was left alone to deal with it all.

Perhaps that last is the most primal part of the trigger in my case.
The Christmas Eve deaths, after all,
had nothing to do with domestic tensions within a family --
it was a case of a head-on collision
with someone driving under the influence.

But an entire family, in each case,
was reduced to a bereft husband/father, the others all gone.

Helen,
you have MY support in broadening this topic to include your own experience,
and I thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 06:03 PM

My main problem is that facts were NOT presented. It started off sounding (to me) like "Some bad shit happened on Christmas in Boston. The end."
No clue what you intended to talk about, or rather, what you intended other people to talk about.

I've said all I'll say on this, so my best to you.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 06:20 PM

Thing is, Helen, it isn't really a question of "taking issue with it." It's more a question of why, just maybe, it's better to look outwards and, well try to enjoy your life a bit more...

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 06:39 PM

I appreciate the sentiment. Just before reading this an acquaintance was relating how she was on a main street on her way here and a car was T-Boned at apeed to her left and sailed over her with car parts and car insides flying. Her two children were with her and they, she, and car were narrowly missed by the debris. She was trying to calm herself down and unpack it. I suggested she write down the events and date it, something I've done in similar circumstances.

As for the unsentimentals who merely wish to add irrelevant jokes and observations ('die of capitalism'?), now I know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 06:50 PM

The car sailed OVER the car that she was driving?
Darned right she must have felt powerless!

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 06:51 PM

I had somebody specific in mind who died of capitalism last year (more precisely, Brexit, the London housing market and a pathological family who seem to estimate people purely in terms of financial success). I posted a brief mention of her suicide last year. There is nothing the least bit funny about that waste of her life.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jan 20 - 02:19 PM

I keep remembering your endorsement of RFK's assassination. Funny how you pick and choose what ISN'T funny.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jan 20 - 03:17 PM

And I STILL don't get what that has to do with Capitalism. To dive into misquotes of the NT for a moment, it isn't money that is the root of all evil. But the LOVE of money. That isn't the same thing as Capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jan 20 - 03:27 PM

… darn if I'm not feeling powerless again …
the dinosaurs are roaring at each other above my pigpen.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 20 - 03:54 PM

Pigeons are dinosaurs.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jan 20 - 04:18 PM

I quite agree about pigeons.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 26 Jan 20 - 05:53 PM

Except that dinosaurs don't crap all over the patio.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 20 - 05:58 PM

Oh yes they do. The scientific consensus is that birds are theropod dinosaurs...

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Helen
Date: 21 Feb 20 - 03:26 AM

A recent event in Australia has sparked a huge amount of debate on what can be done to stop domestic violence against women and sometimes children.

Can't we all agree killing women and children is wrong?

This is about that powerless feeling.

And before certain male members of the Mudcat community start to make flippant comments or to try to deflect the conversation away from this topic, take a moment to think about why those flippant or deflective comments were more often made by males and not females.

If this topic was about Donald Trump, or Brexit, or a myriad other topics which pop up in the BS/Breeze Shooting section below the line, then the topic would probably not be hijacked by people saying that the topic is not worth discussing. There may be angry denials or arguments about the topic, there may be people erroneously (or not) taking generic comments personally and going off in a huff but staying to make their personal perceived affronts heard, but the topic would continue to be discussed or argued until it reached a logical end.

The sense of powerlessness felt, not only by the victims of domestic violence, but also by witnesses to the events, or even members of the general public who are shocked to the core by the actions of some people, (statistically most often men) against members of their families, (most often women and sometimes also children) is a real emotional response. Sometimes a victim's sense of powerlessness becomes the trap which enables the perpetration of violence and possibly murder, because the victim believes that s/he can do nothing to break the cycle, or that no one will believe her/him, or the system is against her/him.

But that sense of powerless also pervades media coverage. Why does this still keep happening? What can we do to prevent this? What is the government doing about this? Why has major funding been cut to essential domestic violence support organisations?

It's all about powerlessness. The focus somehow needs to be shifted to facilitating a sense of power to take control of our lives when we are potentially in danger, and a lot of theat starts, in my opinion, by being able to recognise that danger, recognise the signs in time to avert disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 20 - 05:10 AM

Well I've never read any flippant or dismissive comments from male or otherwise members of this forum about abuse of women and children, or read any remarks that it's not worth discussing. Of course it's a vitally important topic for public discussion, but your wrong-headed, preemptive bollocking of people who up to this point have done nothing wrong in this context is, well, let's say, a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater (that isn't even dirty).

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 21 Feb 20 - 06:03 AM


And before certain male members of the Mudcat community start to make flippant comments or to try to deflect the conversation away from this topic, take a moment to think about why those flippant or deflective comments were more often made by males and not females.

Helen,
On 24 Jan 20, there was a series of posts which strayed from the subject with weak puns based on eggs. One of the posters was male and two were female, with more than one post coming from you. Admittedly, Steve started it but he also stopped it with an apology to the OP.

"Judge not, that ye not be judged"

DC

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Feb 20 - 06:05 AM

I think that killing anyone (sex or age regardless) is wrong. My father would have disagreed with me and loudly proclaimed that defending one's country and killing the enemy in wartime is necessary, but then he had been thoroughly indoctrinated by patriotism as he fought in WW2. He also supported the death penalty, which I have problems with too. Pacifism isn't simple.

Apparently there are more cases of women killing men/children than most people realise. I should imagine that most of these tragedies are the result of either mental illness, fear or despair.

I have noticed that the Meedja (folk messaging, commenting, mocking, criticising, trolling, bullying and so on) seems to be causing a lot of distress and depression, particularly among the young. There has been a lot of comment lately about mental health issues and support for those affected.

Subject: RE: BS: that powerless feeling (sensitive topic)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Feb 20 - 07:05 AM

Yes, Doug, we strayed from the thread for a few posts but there was nothing disrespectful or dismissive said. The rather heavy dough was leavened just for a little while. Even the thread's initiator appreciated the brief injection of humour, if you look back. Nothing to apologise for there, and I repeat my oft-stated position that anyone is welcome to take the conversation anywhere they like in any thread of mine (because, once it's out here, it's not mine any more).