BS: 2020 national election, USA - BIDEN wins Nov 7

Subject: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 12:42 PM

Do we have such a thread already?
Because I used the thread filter search (thanks, Joe Offer)
and I could not locate one.


Me, I believe that Bernie Sanders is in trouble.
Here's a January 2020 article from Vermont (dissidents?)

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 03:24 PM

Not my country, But I think Trump is in with a good chance:
You can fool all of the people some of the time, and you can fool some of the people all of the time . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 04:16 PM

A good chance to be what? Something other than a racist, amoral, incompetent asshole. No way.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 04:28 PM

I'd like to see Pete play against Biden and Trump in a special History game of Jeopardy.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 04:38 PM

What are the least amount of points you can score on Jeopardy? No doubt T@#%p would bottom out in the negative unless they had a Potent Porno Stars category.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 10:32 PM

Gee, keberoxu, do you think we could narrow the scope and re-title this thread "2020 US primary elections"? The General Election isn't until November. I hate to see this be the one-and-only thread on US elections. That leads to long and confusing threads, and the long threads tend to be battlefields. Better to narrow the scope. Contact SRS if you want to change the thread name.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 20 - 04:17 PM

Its fine to have a wide focus on 2020 elections.
This way we can take into account;
The base of haters, low information haters and swing haters,
as well as Schiff progressives, AOC progressives and the last FDR democrat.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 20 - 07:20 PM

Joe, I know you think I am a bit spooky/kooky. I accept that.
It is because I believe a mystery is the very place to begin to look for answers. I sometimes carry on in poetry and leave rhetoric for others. The refreshing poetry in the world is song. On screens or paper it is dry like powdered chocolate. One needs another ingredient, like an open mind

Vote with a kind mind
2020

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Feb 20 - 08:43 PM

My take on 2020.... too many candidates chasing the money and trying to look different while still attracting a wide base of the party.

Long way to go yet, and many states yet to be heard from. What I fear is that all the media speculation that "X" is in trouble or that "Y" is surging before a single actual primary is actually driving X and Y in those directions.... like lab techs whose very attempts to study a microbe affects its growth...positively or negatively.

Did you ever go to a buffet and see far too many choices?

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 11:40 AM

Well, here comes the primary for
the state of New Hampshire, this week.

Joe Offer has a point:
this election process may be too long,
with too many twists and turns, for a single forum thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 12:21 PM

If UK politics are confined to one thread, why should the US be any different? It’s a foregone conclusion anyway - the orange pussy-grabber will walk straight back in.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 02:30 PM

No.. not a foregone conclusion. He was beaten by 3 million votes last time, and just a few changes in a few states can fix that.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 03:00 PM

Trump is a maverick. And mavericks can surprise. At this stage, through the filter of the Atlantic ocean, we hear Trump v "A or B or C et al".

A divided opposition is a weak opposition.

Be afraid, America, be very afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 03:22 PM

"No.. not a foregone conclusion. He was beaten by 3 million votes last time, and just a few changes in a few states can fix that."

I hope you're right Bill. But I'm confident that his Diversion-Politics and your stupid Electoral College will trump* 'a few changes in a few states'.

*See what I did there? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 03:28 PM

Holy shit, "infighting" and a "divided opposition" are what you get during primary season.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 04:52 PM

My bumper: Vote while you still can

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 05:53 PM

I'm tempted to get one of these:

Click

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 07:03 PM

But you're getting divisions and the appearance of incompetence. Cf Iowa. Exactly the reasons Labour got trounced in our election. Make no mistake. Any hint of splits in leftie parties will militate against you, big time. You have all the media against you. As I cynically said to Mrs Steve yesterday, put six lefties in a room and you'll instantly get an ugly 3-3 split...

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 03:32 AM

With Cruella de vil as speaker, and plentiful infighting, the democrats will be on the rocks in November and triumphant Trump will sail serenely on. Barring a miracle of epic proportions the Democrats are scuppered.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 05:26 AM

You've fucked your own country up beyond all recognition, maybe you should give up political prognostication for whittling or some other useful hobby.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 06:39 AM

keb nuthin rong with predickshuns bein rong
member US Iran war bgins? - WRONG
I'm glad I was wrong
I am glad you are wrong.
Bernie will win tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 07:55 AM

"infighting" and a "divided opposition" are what you get during primary season.

The problemo is that we Brits, at this distance, can't see a divided Republican caucus. And we naturally draw analogies with the UK like:
1) a winning leader with questionable morals who just wants to be leader. All else is expediency thereto.
2) isolationist/xenophbic policies
3) vituperative electioneering
4) divided opposition

Albeit, we Brits are more reserved on that scale, but we are more shocked by the level, maybe.

We have a stake in the poutcome (finger trouble but I'll take the pun) after all, NOW!

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 08:09 AM

Welcome to primary season. The incumbent doesn't often get a serious challenge and the opposition tears into each other.
Twitler won his nomination with the nastiest campaign since 1800.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 08:10 AM

No matter the poutcome, Trump will say it is rigged like he did last time.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 08:19 AM

if "poutcome" was intentional, lol

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 11:36 AM

His revenge behavior is a poutcome.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: keberoxu
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 03:39 PM

Here we go with the first
of the state primaries.
(At least it isn't ice-storming.)

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 03:58 PM

After a terrible week for Democrats it looks like Bernie then Pete and then a surprise.

Buck up, so many of the Trump voters last time that were just looking for change are going to get change from Democrats.
Last time they wanted anything except 26+ years of a Clinton or a Bush.
So many are hurt by tariffs now, they need an intelligent President again.

Americans who need change this time will be smarter than ahem , Europeans

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 06:15 AM

yesterday
After a terrible week for Democrats it looks like Bernie then Pete and then a surprise.

today
how about that, I was right.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 07:59 AM

You've fucked your own country up beyond all recognition, maybe you should give up political prognostication for whittling or some other useful hobby.
A matter of opinion I would suggest!
and my prognostications this side of the pond were spot on. I disd not even have to resort to casting chhlorinated chicken bones,I merely studied the polls.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 07:12 AM

I Have. How did you know?
It only takes silence
to let evil men rule.
True to tell
You are full of stool
Iains you have lost your edge,
you have lost your poison.
But you still smell.

Dems may not have someone with a plurality leading to a brokered convention.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 01:52 PM

David Brooks is a holdout from the olden days, when there were moderate and even occasionally liberal Republicans. He is probably be that last man standing from that camp.

His essay from 2016 is even more relevant today. I'll paste it in here because it's relatively short and because people often hit a paywall when trying to read the New York Times.

The Governing Cancer of Our Time

We live in a big, diverse society. There are essentially two ways to maintain order and get things done in such a society — politics or some form of dictatorship. Either through compromise or brute force. Our founding fathers chose politics.

Politics is an activity in which you recognize the simultaneous existence of different groups, interests and opinions. You try to find some way to balance or reconcile or compromise those interests, or at least a majority of them. You follow a set of rules, enshrined in a constitution or in custom, to help you reach these compromises in a way everybody considers legitimate.

The downside of politics is that people never really get everything they want. It’s messy, limited and no issue is ever really settled. Politics is a muddled activity in which people have to recognize restraints and settle for less than they want. Disappointment is normal.

But that’s sort of the beauty of politics, too. It involves an endless conversation in which we learn about other people and see things from their vantage point and try to balance their needs against our own. Plus, it’s better than the alternative: rule by some authoritarian tyrant who tries to govern by clobbering everyone in his way.

As Bernard Crick wrote in his book, “In Defence of Politics,” “Politics is a way of ruling divided societies without undue violence.”

Over the past generation we have seen the rise of a group of people who are against politics. These groups — best exemplified by the Tea Party but not exclusive to the right — want to elect people who have no political experience. They want “outsiders.” They delegitimize compromise and deal-making. They’re willing to trample the customs and rules that give legitimacy to legislative decision-making if it helps them gain power.

Ultimately, they don’t recognize other people. They suffer from a form of political narcissism, in which they don’t accept the legitimacy of other interests and opinions. They don’t recognize restraints. They want total victories for themselves and their doctrine.

This antipolitics tendency has had a wretched effect on our democracy. It has led to a series of overlapping downward spirals:

The antipolitics people elect legislators who have no political skills or experience. That incompetence leads to dysfunctional government, which leads to more disgust with government, which leads to a demand for even more outsiders.

The antipolitics people don’t accept that politics is a limited activity. They make soaring promises and raise ridiculous expectations. When those expectations are not met, voters grow cynical and, disgusted, turn even further in the direction of antipolitics.

The antipolitics people refuse compromise and so block the legislative process. The absence of accomplishment destroys public trust. The decline in trust makes deal-making harder.

We’re now at a point where the Senate says it won’t even hold hearings on a presidential Supreme Court nominee, in clear defiance of custom and the Constitution. We’re now at a point in which politicians live in fear if they try to compromise and legislate. We’re now at a point in which normal political conversation has broken down. People feel unheard, which makes them shout even louder, which further destroys conversation.

And in walks Donald Trump. People say that Trump is an unconventional candidate and that he represents a break from politics as usual. That’s not true. Trump is the culmination of the trends we have been seeing for the last 30 years: the desire for outsiders; the bashing style of rhetoric that makes conversation impossible; the decline of coherent political parties; the declining importance of policy; the tendency to fight cultural battles and identity wars through political means.

Trump represents the path the founders rejected. There is a hint of violence undergirding his campaign. There is always a whiff, and sometimes more than a whiff, of “I’d like to punch him in the face.”

I printed out a Times list of the insults Trump has hurled on Twitter. The list took up 33 pages. Trump’s style is bashing and pummeling. Everyone who opposes or disagrees with him is an idiot, a moron or a loser. The implied promise of his campaign is that he will come to Washington and bully his way through.

Trump’s supporters aren’t looking for a political process to address their needs. They are looking for a superhero. As the political scientist Matthew MacWilliams found, the one trait that best predicts whether you’re a Trump supporter is how high you score on tests that measure authoritarianism.

This isn’t just an American phenomenon. Politics is in retreat and authoritarianism is on the rise worldwide. The answer to Trump is politics. It’s acknowledging other people exist. It’s taking pleasure in that difference and hammering out workable arrangements. As Harold Laski put it, “We shall make the basis of our state consent to disagreement. Therein shall we ensure its deepest harmony.”

Here is the link to the Twitter list of insults and here is the link to the Matthew MacWilliams piece he cites. The In Defence of Politics page may not load; I got a "very busy" message from the site when I tried it.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 03:17 PM

Is this your PHD proposal?

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 03:26 AM

This isn’t just an American phenomenon.

We see it around the world. The problem is that it is currently being seen in erstwhile stable** democracies.

Al Qaeda certainly started something, or burst a bubble that was festering.

**can't think of a more appropriate word

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 11:52 AM

I could not disagree more. But then we are free to disagree aren't we.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 01:17 PM

If a slaughterhouse owner wants to be elected president, all he has to do is convince enough beef cattle that dairy cattle are the source of all their problems.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 08:49 PM

Friends, catters and countrymen, lend me your eyes.
I come to speak of Trump, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Trump. The noble Schiff
Hath told you Trump abused power:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously Trump was impeached for it.
Here, under leadership of Schiff and the rest–
For Schiff is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men–
I come to speak of quid pro quo abuse.
Yes he was guilty and seldom faithful to the Constitution:
But Schiff says he abused power;
And Schiff is an honourable man.
Trump hath brought many captives to cages
Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
Did this in Trump seem abusive?
When that the poor have cried, Trump cared less:
Abuse should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet Pelosi says he was abusive and vengeful;
And Pelosi is an honourable woman.
You all did see that in the Congress
But here I am to speak what I do know.
Many do love him , without cause.
O judgment! thou art aquited by your cohorts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
The constitution technically allows him to abuse power.
Only you the people can give the final word and judgment.

Conservative think tanks have stratagized legalities
You have the power of realities.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 12:04 PM

What if Mike Bloomberg chose Hillary Clinton as his running mate?

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 08:41 PM

Wisconsin is Joe Offer's native state, yes?
Tuesday 18 February is the state primary for Wisconsin
if I read right.

and, my gosh,
Massachusetts where I live now
is having two separate primaries, I know not why:
a separate primary election
just for US President is
the first Tuesday in March -- that's coming up mighty fast !
My life is so, er, interesting of late that
I might have to do early voting,
which would be -- gulp -- next week ...
yes, this is one primary election I do NOT wish to miss.

Massachusett's "everything-else-primary-election"
is in the summertime ...
just how DID that happen??

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 11:15 AM

Donuel: "What if Mike Bloomberg chose Hillary Clinton as his running mate?" Clinton, I would go for, Bloomberg, not so much.

I've been researching Bloomberg and I'm not sure he would be much of an improvement over The current pResident. There is a lot of history there, folks.

At this point, as of today, I would vote for the ticket of Klobachar/Buttiegieg. However, I will work and vote for any Democratic nominee.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: mg
Date: 20 Feb 20 - 06:57 PM

I can not stand the thought of Kl. on any ticket. I thought she was quite bad last night. I think she also has contempt for Bu. and shows it. I doubt they could work together. I want to know who can lead the country through an epidemic or a war. Who? Any of them? I think most could lead through health insurance, climate change..but the immediate..as opposed to longterm..catasrophes..? Who? I think Tulsi might be able to. I actually think Bloomberg might be the best at this although has serious problems both racist and sexist. Warren is certainly capable. Biden is/was but is compromised and showing signs of age although he was quite good last night in debates. Who can beat trump? I think Warren could. I think Bernie could but he needs to have his supporters not boycott any other candidate. I would prefer a WOC but Tulsi is not going to win and KH is out but I think she will be AG and go after everyone. I am offering EW FOR PResident and CB for VP so we can have a bulldog and a uniter on the ticket. Sorry CB did not do better..he has a bit of ME TOO baggage that I don't think he has fully addressed. Yang and castro for cabinet positions? Who for agriculture ? Someone who knows issues inside and out. Who for transportation? Must also deal with plague issues because that is one of the main ways it will spread.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 20 - 07:16 PM

I find that post to be incomprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Mossback
Date: 20 Feb 20 - 10:29 PM

Its incomprehensible this side of the pond as well, Steve- its not just you.

In fact, its a pretty good imitation of a Trump speech.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 20 - 02:08 AM

Verbal Diarrhœa. IMHO, YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Feb 20 - 11:00 AM

Tulsi is a Libertarian masquerading as a Democrat - there's a reason she hasn't qualified for debates since early on. Hawaii is lucky she isn't running for her house seat again. Bloomberg seems to be crumbling before our eyes and I hope he's still good for that promise to let his bucks back whoever is the nominee.

The idea that there is a good billionaire to beat the bad billionaire is ludicrous - it's the money that has corrupted in the first place, though Trump is without a conscience as he promotes his brand from the While House while continuing to manage his businesses. Someone who has been in government, who has made government their career and understands the whole Civics process, is needed to start clearing up the mess. And set a few of these rules that Trump shattered into stone so if another crackpot is elected in the future, they can't do the same damage.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Feb 20 - 05:54 PM

With no disrespect whatever intended to you, mg,
here is my brief attempt at a
"legend" for your post
-- this is how I comprehend it anyhow.

Kl. -- Klobuchar
Bu. -- Buttigieg
WOC -- woman, "of course"
KH   -- Kamala Harris
AG   -- Attorney General
EW   -- Elizabeth Warren
CB   -- Cory Booker

and if I have to tell you who is meant by
"Yang" and   "Castro,"   ... too bad.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Neil D
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 05:44 AM

The DNC is terrified of Bernie getting the nomination because they think he can't beat Trump. I say vote for him anyway because none of the other candidates can beat the beast either. If Trumpoid Boris can win in a landslide, the real bad-hair monstrosity will win as well. British politics always was the canary in the coalmine for the US. First Thatcher then Reagan; first Brexit then Trump.
The current group of Dem candidates are 5 septuagenarians and Mayor Pete. The only problem with Pete is that he will never inspire black voters to get out to the polls because of several issues during his term as mayor of South Bend, IN: firing the black chief-of-police; a police force that is made up of a much lower % of minority officers than the population; an urban renewal project where most of the houses that were brought up to code were in white neighborhoods and most of the ones razed were in black neighborhoods and just as he began his candidacy a black man shot by a white cop whose body cam had been turned off. Dems can't win the presidency without the black vote in full force: If Hillary would have gotten even half of the minority voters as Obama did, Trump would have been relegated to the dustbin of history 4 years back. I don't understand why some viable candidates like Booker, O'Rourke and Harris couldn't gain any traction, but we're left with what we have, and none will beat Trump.   
The silver lining is that because of the perverse nature of American politics the feckless Republicans will lose the Senate, the Dems will hold the house and the Donald, grandson of an illegal immigrant brothel keeper, son of a klansman, will just have to order a big box of veto pens.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 10:52 AM

I suspect that Putin thinks Bernie would be the easiest to beat also... because if he was the nominee, they would just claim him as a 'socialist'.... and Trump would..ummm... trumpet... "socialist" all thru the campaign. Too many people can't tell the difference between Democratic Socialist and something that is almost Communist.

I'm hoping for Warren...or even Biden...or Amy.. but after super Tuesday we can make a good guess. I'd happily vote for Mayor Pete, but don't expect him to get there.

My preferred candidate was too smart to get into this mess.... Claire McCaskill.

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 09:02 AM

Stream of consciousness posts are best understood by their authors.
But even then...

The most profound post I have seen is that no one knows, not the pundits, Putin or public. The variables of a pandemic and money thrown around by the billions along with ideologic challenges and Trump uncerntainties is beyond any computational power I know of.

Of course I would not deny anyone the need to whinge away.

The basics will not go away however;

Those who believe that the only business of America is business is still pitted against "We the People".

The people who believe that all life is worth saving is pitted against
those who want to hang, behead, deport, war against and bomb.

It is more complex than good vs. evil. Or is it?

Subject: RE: BS: 2020 national election, USA
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 09:20 AM

If the Democrats were smart, hahahaha
They would supply blue gloves and blue masks for every Democrat to wear to the polling place.