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BS: The Union Flag and English values

An Buachaill Caol Dubh 23 Jun 20 - 03:20 PM
Tattie Bogle 23 Jun 20 - 01:36 PM
Donuel 23 Jun 20 - 06:30 AM
SPB-Cooperator 22 Jun 20 - 07:15 AM
beachcomber 21 Jun 20 - 07:42 PM
Captain Swing 20 Jun 20 - 07:08 PM
SPB-Cooperator 20 Jun 20 - 06:12 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jun 20 - 02:14 AM
Allan Conn 17 Jun 20 - 07:11 PM
Tattie Bogle 17 Jun 20 - 04:01 PM
Senoufou 17 Jun 20 - 01:52 PM
JeffB 17 Jun 20 - 01:07 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 17 Jun 20 - 10:23 AM
Jos 17 Jun 20 - 05:38 AM
peteglasgow 17 Jun 20 - 05:11 AM
Shug Hanlan 17 Jun 20 - 04:11 AM
Senoufou 17 Jun 20 - 03:54 AM
Gurney 17 Jun 20 - 01:05 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 16 Jun 20 - 09:40 PM
JeffB 16 Jun 20 - 07:27 PM
Captain Swing 16 Jun 20 - 03:10 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 16 Jun 20 - 03:08 PM
JeffB 16 Jun 20 - 01:15 PM
JeffB 16 Jun 20 - 01:09 PM
Jos 16 Jun 20 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 20 - 09:54 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 16 Jun 20 - 09:20 AM
Captain Swing 16 Jun 20 - 07:39 AM
JeffB 16 Jun 20 - 07:38 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Jun 20 - 06:07 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 20 - 03:32 AM
Senoufou 16 Jun 20 - 03:24 AM
Allan Conn 16 Jun 20 - 03:02 AM
BobL 16 Jun 20 - 02:58 AM
Captain Swing 15 Jun 20 - 07:05 PM
Rapparee 15 Jun 20 - 06:49 PM
Allan Conn 15 Jun 20 - 06:21 PM
Captain Swing 15 Jun 20 - 05:22 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 15 Jun 20 - 03:35 PM
Jos 15 Jun 20 - 02:57 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 15 Jun 20 - 01:33 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jun 20 - 01:32 PM
Captain Swing 14 Jun 20 - 12:10 PM
Captain Swing 14 Jun 20 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 20 - 11:45 AM
Charmion 14 Jun 20 - 11:02 AM
Captain Swing 14 Jun 20 - 09:09 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:20 PM

Ireland's flag is a Tricolour, Green, White and Orange. Each of its four Provinces has a heraldic device (that of Connaught being the most complex).
Admittedly, this national flag has only been in existence for about a century; not nearly so long as the national flags of Scotland and England, but then, the current UK flag only goes back about two. The design is roughly co-eval with that of the French Tricoleur.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 01:36 PM

@ beachcomber: wouldn't England and Ireland then squabble over whose was the red cross on white background with horizontal and vertical red stripes? The hand is only part of the Ulster flag.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:30 AM

A new flag sounds good. Flags should be emblematic and not merely historic. You've seen flags change before.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 07:15 AM

At a zoom quiz I was at yesterday, one round was on the Commonwealth. This made me think about this thread and the idea of a plain pink flag, as per the colour in atlases.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: beachcomber
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 07:42 PM

I'd like to point out that the Red Hand symbol is used in modern times to signify the entire Province of Ulster, including the 6 counties of Northern Ireland. It was suggested that it be used in a "New Union Flag" if Scotland were to become independent.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Captain Swing
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 07:08 PM

I agree with you SPB-C, completely. How we achieve that, I don't know. Though public vote sounds much more appropriate for this than anything else so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 06:12 PM

We need a new flag that represents what the gift of cross-fertilisation from cultures all round the world bring to our society, instead of the flag we currently have which has been adopted by racists, neo-nazis and the rest of the far right.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:14 AM

In many ways, the flags of many countries, as with the statues now being threatened with removal, stand as reminder of the darker side of history; the British flag most certainly being no exception
Now many people seem to be wakening up to their nations' chequered pasts, I will be interesting to see if they are subjected to the same scrutiny
If things continue on the road they have steadily taken following Brexit, the term 'Union Flag' will become an embarrassing reminder rather than a description of how things really are
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 07:11 PM

I think the idea that the Saltire took over as the more common flag rather than the Royal Standard because of a push for Independence shouldn't be exaggerated. I think there were other factors too. Maybe more significant. When I first went to Scotland games in the mid 70s the Lion Rampant was indeed more numerous. But far more folk voted for the SNP in the 74 general election than ever voted for them in the 80s, 90s or even noughties. I think the demise of the Home Internationals and Scotland's opponents then being virtually always non British was maybe more significant plus Scotland's regular qualification for international tournaments when using your nation's flag rather than the Royal Standard became the norm.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 04:01 PM

Just a few observations re flags: as a Brownie, then a Girl Guide, growing up in England, we had to learn how the Union Flag was composed, down to getting the broad white stripes in the right places, and making sure that if we put it up the flagpole it was the right way up.
Many years later, I acquired a brother-in-law from N Ireland, from a Protestant family: he had never ever heard of St Patrick's flag: insisted I had got it all wrong about the red diagonal on white background, and that is had to be the horizontal/vertical cross with the hand in the middle.
By then we were living in Scotland, but if you look at any videos of big Scottish flag-waving events of the 1970/1980s, nearly all the flags then were Lions Rampant - very few Saltires. But then came along the bigger push for independence: Saltires everywhere, but people who supported the Union complaining that the Independence lobby had hi-jacked the Saltire, which was, after all, St Andrew's flag, the flag of Scotland and not of one party political group. Recent marches for independence have united as "All Under One Banner" - no one political party, but all those in favour of independence.
While I understand the history behind the name, I do find " The Butcher's Apron" pretty crass and wish people would stop referring to it as that.
I am sad that the Union may break up, but even being half-English, (half-Scottish)can feel no loyalty at all to the total madhouse that has been the Westminster Government for this last decade or more.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 01:52 PM

JeffB, as the Australians would say, 'dimension!'.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: JeffB
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 01:07 PM

Senoufou - Thanks for that. Nicest compliment I've had since lockdown.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 10:23 AM

I had thought the "rainbow flag" (leaving aside the fact that Greenpeace might have some kind of prior claim) was particularly, maybe primarily, even exclusively associated with the LBGTA people? If so, while one could certainly argue that the concept of Equality - and, better, the reality as experienced by the majority, not just the platitudes enunciated by the articulate talkee-talkee graduates in various media - would be something everyone should endorse, how likely is it that the adoption of such a flag would be peacefully accepted? Of course, to impose it would serve further to divide people in pursuing various arguments and agendas. Or, to adapt someone's idea...


"Look --- vexillology!!!"


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Jos
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 05:38 AM

A rainbow flag - so that we could have endless arguments about whether there really is indigo between the blue and the violet, or whether it is just a Victorian fancy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 05:11 AM

could we not adopt a rainbow flag - one thing everyone in the UK could take some pride in. i'm afraid the union jack just symbolises too much bloody baggage and that - and particularly the english flag- has become the flag of choice for far right aggressive types with no sense of unity of common purpose for all of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 04:11 AM

PISH OVER THE STATUES

After 16 pints I had to say
whose statues are we defending anyway?
Is it Bobby Moore or the Queen
or maybe Dixon of Dock Green?

My bladder felt about to crack
I had to find a nearby plaque.
Once you start it never stops
not for Churchill or the Cops.

Shug Hanlan


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 03:54 AM

JeffB, your last post made me scream! Brilliant humour! I reckon a Stormzy-type of motto would be excellent (I've always loved the new 'innit')


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Gurney
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 01:05 AM

Just a stir from the antipodes: There is no reason to change colours in the Union Flag, simply add a Maple Leaf and the Southern Cross in the quarters. Then it becomes the Commonwealth Flag. Nowadays, it is usual to say 'The Commonwealth' rather than 'The British Commonwealth of Nations.'


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 09:40 PM

Hey, come oan, JeffB, wait a wee minute, just because I hunt efter the wurrds of auld sangs with the dogged ferocity of a Gorbals Diehard disnae mean I haunt the Charity Shops of Empires like a superfluous veteran of the stage appearing on a Celebrity quiz show, hoping to find something to cherish even if it be only the faded remnants and echoes of the times that are no more. Ah'm no' pickie, by the way! I will switch codes enigmatically, systematically, drastically and with a rascally demeanour, the meaner the better, for while not all the streets are mean this is No Mean City, ken whit Ah mean, pal? Doan' mess, right?! Doan' mess wi' me! Awww, ye waant it in Laaaaa-tin, dae ye?

"Nemo me impune lacessit" has been rendered "Wha daur meddle wi me?" but in the spirit of demotic appropriateness I suggest "Naeb'day taks a haun at me an gets away wi't", though some scholars from the West of Scotland prefer to construe the root verb in the motto as "chib". We sent them homewards, to think of a better ending.

I'd better end, for 'tis the bitter end, the End of Imperial Squalor.
Would a sense of humour be a value or a characteristic?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: JeffB
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 07:27 PM

Capt Swing - Well, going back off-piste again - the motto on the royal coat of arms (the de facto coat of arms of the UK) is Dieu et Mon Droit, which is French for God and My Right. Obviously this needs to go. In the first place, it's FRENCH goddammit, which has to be completely unacceptable for a post-Brexit UK. Secondly, it's an affirmation of the divine right of kings, a doctrine which should have been thoroughly disproved when Charles I had his last breakfast in 1649. We should have ditched that motto over 350 years ago, but that's the English for you, an unduly sentimental attachment to any old bits of cultural junk our distant ancestors happen to have left lying around.

ABCD - Well, no, I suppose not. After all, I suppose Latin is a bit of unduly sentimental cultural junk our distant ancestors have left lying around, if you want to be picky, as I just KNOW you do. So perhaps we should get "with it" and not be too "square" about this sort of thing, and explore modern possibilities that might appeal more to our young folk. How about a motto in the new language of Rap? Perhaps we could respectfully remember our Scottish ex-compatriots by borrowing their "Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" and rendering it as "Doan shit on me man, else you go doooown, innit." Just a suggestion. Perhaps the Poet Laureate and Mr Stormzy could get together on hammering out something which will appeal to the boyz, hoods, chavs, skinheads, rockers, rappers, hip-hoppers, ravers and goths upon whom the future of our great nation depends.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Captain Swing
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 03:10 PM

Do we have a motto at the moment Jeff?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 03:08 PM

Does it have to be in Latin?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: JeffB
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 01:15 PM

But while chatting about flags and coats of arms and mottoes (? mottos, ? mottia) no-one has mentioned the other topic Capt Swing started this thread with, viz the English values "we really want to be proud of". I'm sure there is much scope for fruitless discussion and tangential meanderings there.

(But don't forget - we need a new motto too.)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: JeffB
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 01:09 PM

Jos, Not quite. Official flags follow the rules of heraldry, and one of those is that you can't have white against yellow, nor can you have any of the other permitted colours (red, blue, green, black, and purple)against each other either. There is just one special exception - the papal arms which are yellow and white (or gold and silver, since no doubt the R C Church can afford it.) The reason is visibilty. In the melee of medieval battle when you're trying to see something through the bars of your visor, you had to be able to recognise instantly friend or foe. That is also why the colours are all primary; no pink or brown or grey.

I doubt that the Cornish would welcome being represented on any future flag as most of them don't think of themselves as English anyway.

As for a public vote .... of course the govt would veto it. Any decision like that would need the approval of the queen anyway, and that would most certainly be the case for the coat of arms as the UK's are the queen's personal arms as well.

I should say that I was going a little off-piste in my last post as I really had in mind coats of arms (i.e. shields, crests etc) than flags. Crosses or tricolours certainly suit flags better than animals.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Jos
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 11:58 AM

To incorporate both Wales and Cornwall the red and white cross could be expanded to red, white and yellow, in any order (red on white on yellow, red on yellow on white, etc.). If Northern Ireland leaves, the diagonal red cross could be removed.
The design of the current flag is made up of crosses representing saints, rather than countries.
Many countries have more than one patron saint, and most saints are patrons of more than one country as well as a variety of districts and cities.
I would prefer not to add details such as dragons, harps, red hands, lions rampant or couchant . . .

Perhaps there should be a competition, with entries reduced to a shortlist, and then a public vote. What's the betting the government would then veto the result.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 09:54 AM

"'afraid of' was the possibility of violence."
Violence has been par for the course since the state was hatched
Brexit and "borders in the sea" betrayals are for more likely to be the cause than Republican demands
The barriers are nw falling now, "Home Rule means Rome Rule" has fallen by the wayside thanks to the rapist priests - That's going to accelerate when the Norther Ireland authorities allow a similar enquiry up there
This Pandemic is rapidly removing the economic reasons for partition
The built-in majority is dithering on the point of being too smell to matter
The only thing threatening to block the natural stste of 'an Irish Ireland' if the "No Surrender" - mindset which first introduced the gun to 20th century Northern politics and will be the past to put it aside
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 09:20 AM

Captain Swing, now or at any other time, certain slogans would be deemed inappropriately divisive, until enough people made enough noise to drown out any disagreement or compel everyone to make the same noises. No doubt support in the right quarters is helpful too, both in popularising and in suppressing. I wonder whether anyone should insist that he is going to "take a Wounded Knee" in solidarity with all those routinely subjected to oppression in the USA; and if any object to the modification of another phrase currently fashionable, on what grounds?
JeffB, what an entertaining post. The potential menagerie scurrying around the Old Queen's Coat of Many Compromises would have been the funniest part, were it not for the proposed acronym for the former State. I didn't overlook the thoughts behind the posting, of course, as serious as those posted above concerning the likelihood of Ireland becoming a united nation once again.
Och, and Nigel Parsons: you might be right, maybe no, but my own attitude to what we call the Flag, or indeed to the Old Queen, can readily be deduced from the last three words of what is already a minor addendum, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Captain Swing
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 07:39 AM

Jim, the bit I was 'afraid of' was the possibility of violence. I really hope we can see a united Ireland before too long.

Senoufou, thank you for the information but I use the term ironically because I consider that it is ludicrous to consider another person as royal, majestic or high(in this context anyway) and couldn't care less about this particular protocol.

I don't want to get on to the BLM debate specifically, but I wonder if things would have been different in NI if it had been possible to have something similar eg Catholic Lives Matter?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: JeffB
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 07:38 AM

Nigel - Gold and yellow are heraldically equivalent. Yellow is 'or' (Norman French from Latin aurum) but, unless you have a sculptered shield which can be painted with gold paint, it is depicted as yellow. They used yellow paint, not gold, on their shields in the Middle Ages. Similarly with heraldic white, which is 'argent'.

You corrctly remind us that the only heraldic emblem of Wales is the red dragon on a green and white field. So the appropriate colours for a future flag for the Former United Kingdom (FUK) would be red, white and green. And the Scottish unicorn supporting the shield in the royal coat of arms would be replaced by the Welsh dragon. Ditto for the Scottish lion rampant in the second quarter of the shield. But we shouldn't rush into a redesign just yet. Northern Ireland might well unite with Eire sooner or later, and then the Irish harp would have to go. To be replaced, I suppose, by the dragon. So the royal coat of arms would end up as some sort of combination of lion and dragon in red, white and green. Perhaps we could join lion and dragon together and make one of those weird heraldic beasts, such as a griffin. That would be fun! Who wants to go on top?

While we're about it, we must really re-think the royal motto. 'God and My Right'. It hasn't agreed with any Zeitgeist since the swinging 60s. What would be appropriate for the early 21st century? And the rest of it too. What's Latin for 'Buy now, pay later, own it never'?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 06:07 AM

Jos: I have looked up a few flags, and it seems that the flag of St David is a yellow cross on a black background and the flag of St Piran (a 5th century Cornish abbot) is a white cross on a black background. So by replacing the blue with black, retaining the red cross of St George on the white cross, and removing the white St Andrew's cross leaving just a red diagonal cross, a flag could be created representing England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Cornwall. Further adjustments could then be made if/when necessary.

This would not represent Wales, as the only changes which you might think would incorporate St David is the inclusion of a black field. This (and the white cross) could just as easily be only to represent Cornwall.
Any way, while Scotland (as a stand-alone) is represented by the saltire, and England similarly by the cross of St George, the established flag of Wales is a red dragon on a field of white and green.
And, the flag of St David is a gold cross on a black background.

ABCD: With regard to what flag will replace the current "Union Jack" ("jack" is really only appropriate for a flag at sea, by the way). A bit of pedantry which fails spectacularly as the flag of the UK can be described as either The Union Flag, or The Union Jack.
https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/british-flags-2/the-union-jack-or-the-union-flag/The Flag Institute sums up the relevant information.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 03:32 AM

"I afraid you might be right there Jim. "
Why "afraid" - the only thing the enforced partitioning of Ireland every brought successfully was sectarianism, which was what it was designed for
Part of my family were Derry Catholics who were forced to leave their burning home during one of of the regular Anti-Catholic riots carrying only what would fit in a child's push-chair - my Aunt had to carry my cousin in her arms
It is too often forgotten that 'The Troubles' began when Civil Rights marchers demanding equality and a fair voting system, were marshaled through mobs of stone- throwing Loyalists by the 'forces of Law and Order' - something had to give

Britain has ignored the history lesson that shows that artificially drawing a line to divide a people creates only a healthy body-bag industry - India, Cyprus, Korea, Vietnam, Israel.... all for the benefit of outside interests; never the people themselves, who are never      
I hope I live to see the remnants of the Empire where, "The sun never set and the blood never dried" thrown firmly into the dustbin of history and collected next morning with the rest of the trash
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 03:24 AM

Captain Swing, could I just point out that the Queen isn't HRH (Her Royal Highness) but HM (Her Majesty).


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 03:02 AM

Certainly as far as Scotland goes I think yes in an independent Scotland at some future stage the role of the monarchy might well be looked at but that would be for the citizens of a future Scotland to decide if they wanted to visit that or not. I think it would be seen as a bit of an unnecessary distraction to have that on the agenda at the moment. Hence the position in the 2014 White Paper was that Scotland would look to continue in what the paper called "the social union" with the rUK. Part of that would be the monarch would be retained as Head of State and we would look to remain within the Commonwealth. There is a section of membership of the SNP who take a more Republican stance but the official line at the moment is not Republican. The part of the constitution that the SNP officially oppose is the unelected House of Lords which the party wants scrapped - and there is little support for said House among Scots at large certainly outwith Tory ranks.

There are also immediate implications for Scottish peers should Scotland become independent. As laid out by the House of Lords Select Committee paper on Scottish independence. To retain certain tax advantages any peers of the house would need to physically live in the rUK rather than an independent Scotland. Plus though there are certain Scottish hereditary peerages in the House which predate the Union of Parliaments itself there would be a future decision in the House as to if these can continue or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: BobL
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 02:58 AM

Captain Swing - I think it's much more likely the rose-tinted glasses are worn by people whose grandparents, or parents, were alive at the time. It's today's young people who see only a "greedy, murderous empire building history" and overlook the benefits - or at least, the intended benefits - of a big trading bloc. Some other nations' empires were far less benign.

Or am I showing my rose-tints?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Captain Swing
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 07:05 PM

If England is left by itself I think the North/South issues, unless sorted out in the meantime, will become much more polarised. With a smaller population and without the 'distractions' of Wales, NI and Scotland, it would be much more difficult for the London and Home Counties focus to be maintained. I would hope it would reduce the influence of the Eton Mafia. Also, with that amount of constitutional change, surely the role/relevance of the monarchy would be at least called into question.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 06:49 PM

And when Wales leaves the United Kingdom?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Allan Conn
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 06:21 PM

Mind the SNP's aim is to end the 1707 Union of Parliaments. Nothing to do with the monarchy and there would be little change there except she would revert to being Queen of Scots rather than our Queen as part of the UK. So as it was between 1603 and 1707 apart from the Cromwellian interlude. Saying that support for the monarchy is not as strong in Scotland as in England so should there ever be an indy Scotland then folks may well look at that sometime in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Captain Swing
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 05:22 PM

Ok, so the new flag can be put on order then. What about HRH? Since she'll now only have one country to rule over, will she get a pay cut? Can we make her redundant? Can the Scots charge rent when she stays at Balmoral?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 03:35 PM

I think you'll find the so-called "Cross of St Patrick" is nothing more than the family flag of the Fitzgerald family, adopted officially following the parliamentary Union of 1801 as a British-approved sign for Ireland; there was some kind of loyal organisation from the 1770s or 1780s which had already used this as part of their insignia. Slap a big Red Hand in the middle of whatever replaces "The Butcher's Apron", to represent the Six Counties, if ye like; but maybe it would be regarded as provocative to impose one pattern on top of a national flag, though of course that visual demonstration of Power may be seen in the current design. For a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Jos
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 02:57 PM

I have looked up a few flags, and it seems that the flag of St David is a yellow cross on a black background and the flag of St Piran (a 5th century Cornish abbot) is a white cross on a black background. So by replacing the blue with black, retaining the red cross of St George on the white cross, and removing the white St Andrew's cross leaving just a red diagonal cross, a flag could be created representing England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Cornwall. Further adjustments could then be made if/when necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 01:33 PM

In addition to a United Ireland, I expect that Scotland will eventually secure the Independence which every other civilised country has as an unquestioned right.

With regard to what flag will replace the current "Union Jack" ("jack" is really only appropriate for a flag at sea, by the way), well, it's long been a slogan that "There ain't no Black in the Union Jack", so perhaps another appropriate national flag for the Red Cross of St George to be superimposed upon and visually cut to ribbons would be that of Jamaica; similar in pattern and proportion to the Saltire of St Andrew, and certainly more colourful. All the benefits of being both familiar in its components and new, not to mention inclusive and pluralistic and multi-cultural.
Run it up the hypothetical flagpole and let's see who salutes.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 01:32 PM

The union flag was never an English symbol. It is British. The flag of England in that of St George.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Captain Swing
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 12:10 PM

I afraid you might be right there Jim. Is the unity of Ireland not inevitable in the long term though due to the growing population of the republicans?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Captain Swing
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 11:47 AM

I agree completely Charmion. So much instability in the world has links to British imperialism, including WW1 which led to the rise of Hitler and WW2. Yet the Empire is still viewed with tinted specs by people whose grandparents weren't alive at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 11:45 AM

Brexit has more or less ascertained the bit of Ireland the England hung on to will return to where it belonged as part of Ireland, hopefully without bloodshed, but the fact that the Tories need somebody to bribe to hang onto power makes violence a possibility
English values - whatever they are or were - have long taken second place to to the demand of the International markets
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 11:02 AM

And the bits of Britain's ex-possessions that still have the Union flag among their national symbols -- I live in Ontario, a perfect example -- will look more and more like the Holy Roman Empire, which was famously neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.

With luck, we will take the recombination (or disintegration) of the UK as an opportunity to ask ourselves why we are hanging on to something that is so far past its sell-by date.


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Subject: BS: The Union Flag and English values
From: Captain Swing
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 09:09 AM

I really hope that Scotland achieves independence in the near future because I love Scotland. But also because it will deliver a defining jolt to the English psyche - the Union Flag (Jack) will be no more. It will become as irrelevant in England as it is in the eyes of the rest of the world. We English will have to redesign our symbol of so called national pride. We might have to consider what sort of values we really want to be proud of, perhaps values that are not tied up with a greedy, murderous empire building history. Also, it will be interesting to observe the waves of collective cognitive dissonance on the part of the right as it dawns on them that they can't have their flag back!


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Mudcat time: 11 May 9:09 PM EDT

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