BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 04:34 PM

Good bit of whataboutism there Nigel. It won't work though because everyone knows it is a smokescreen.

'Whataboutism'
That works both ways.
Possibly the 'left' on here (the majority) are discussing the Conservative leadership election to avoid discussing the problems of the Labour Party.

As I said, the problems highlighted by the 'Morning Star' have been totally ignored.

Maybe there will be some comment about the call to have Boris on the final ballot for Conservative leader: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 22 - 04:54 PM

I really would not have had you down as an avid supporter of the "Morning Star", Nigel. I would have expected you to dismiss it as a reliable source out of hand. Well, we live and learn!

There are other analyses of the report which are more even handed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 02:47 AM

should disposable barbecues be banned, because of fire risk

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 03:02 AM

Nigel, the Conservatives are the governing party by a long shot. Their leadership election directly affects the lives of millions. The Labour Party does have problems and you will find that I, along with others, have railed against the leadership and faction divisions on many occasions. However, until we reach the point where Labour are in a position to make a difference, the current leadership election does warrant more attention than the alleged past misdeeds of the opposition party. Nothing to do with whataboutism. Just common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:16 AM

The other thing is, I think you have the wrong idea about "what about". The tactic is used to divert attention from a major news item or serious blunder. What the opposition may have done 3 years ago hardly warrants the major or serious category. Your suggestion that we should be talking about it as much as current news is risible. It reminds me of a quote I saw the other day.

"Now we have the view of an expert in the field who has spent years studying the subject and, for the sake of balance, the ramblings of someone who read about it on Facebook."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:23 AM

"should disposable barbecues be banned, because of fire risk"

Probably yes, in Argentina you will always find a permanent brick "asado" in a back garden, and BA often has temperatures in excess of 40C.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:28 AM

Dave,
i think it is very important, furthermore where someone has read about it does not matter.
the undermining of a leader and the diversion of funds is very important, it makes a mockery of democracy and it is one of the reasons i have left the labour party.
i will vote for labour, but i am not impressed with starmer, but he is better than truss or sunak.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:40 AM

i've just rejoined the labour party after a couple of years of being (as ever} irritated by our timid and tory-lite leadership. i got a flyer for a talk by the founder of extinction rebellion in lancaster and realised i'd rather be at a labour branch meeting in cockermouth where i moved from a couple of years back. my new mp is cat smith - she's a hard worker and left the shadow cabinet as she is anti-anti-corbyn. greens may have more radical, sensible policies but.....well i guess i'm happier moaning about leaders/splitters in the labour party with committed friends and comrades. i've always been more red than green and am happy arguing for socialism or the environment in either party. sorry about all the waffling - I had a bit of a realisation that it's a social as well as a socialist thing and also largely a class thing. so i'm back in the labour party for the social life and where i feel comfortable. makes me sound like a tory, eh? i prefer beer and crisps to elderflower whatever and cake

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:44 AM

meanwhile, the russian rouble has reached a high western sanctions are not working,inflation is being cqused by high energy costs.
liz truss suggests tax cuts ,i suggest removing sanctions that are not working, which will bring down the cost of gas and fuel, and help to reduce inflation.
the whole situation is due to nato provocation, can you imagine, the usa response if russia and china formed a soviet china armaments alliance and put missiles on the canadian border or just across the water from alaska.
rember the bay of pigs this was caused by the wonderful kennedy, putting missiles into turkey, a similiar provocation

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 04:55 AM

Please list instances where members of the current shadow cabinet or the leader of the opposition have abused their ministerial/prime ministerial powers. Please list instances of laws passed by the current opposition that have brought UK into disrepute.

it is amazing how many idiots are too stupid to realise that the tory party are running the government, not the labour party.

How many parties have did labour hold in Downing Street while others were not allowed to visit their dying loved ones during the pandemic? At the start of the pandemic how many time did a labour prime minister not bother to attend?

What is the name of the labour MP who signed the withdrawal agreement. What is the name of the labour minister/prime minister who is showing contempt for international law and treaties?

Who is the labour health minister who presided over 200,000 deaths form covid, and wasted billions on unsuitable PPE.

Who is the labour prime minister who promoted a sex offender to the role of deputy chief whip?

I could go on and on with this for hours, but I have better thing to do than continue responding to such ridiculous whataboutery.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 05:06 AM

meanwhile, the russian rouble has reached a high western sanctions are not working,inflation is being cqused by high energy costs.
Against what currency? Despite a recovery the Rouble value (against the pound or the dollar) is lower than it was on 29 June this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 07:24 AM

"i suggest removing sanctions that are not working, which will bring down the cost of gas and fuel, and help to reduce inflation."

You really are as bad as corbyn, you haven't a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 08:52 AM

could any tory tell me where the question 'What about the Corbyn years leading Labour?' appears on the agenda at every meeting? Is it before the 'This month's Dead Cat' or a sub-section of the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 09:32 AM

I sympathise with something like 48% of the people stuck at Dover.

It is amusing, in a way, the effort put into blaming this on the French, pretending it has nothing to do with Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 10:18 AM

bonzo , truss seems to think that inflation is caused by rising energy prices, are you saying that this is wrong, if not tell us what is causing the rise in energy costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 11:25 AM

"tell us what is causing the rise in energy costs."

Simple - demand and supply!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 11:58 AM

the rise in energy costs caused by demand supply? well the supply of gas or lack of it coming from russia, as a result of sanctions, so logically sanctions have pushed up the price of gas for the uk,is it a co incidence the price of oil has gone up as well,according to the guardian
Why are fuel prices so high?

The average cost of petrol hit a record 191.53p a litre on Sunday, while diesel is 199.03p and, in some places, above £2 a litre. Fuel prices have risen this year as the cost of crude oil, used to produce petrol and diesel, has jumped.

The price of crude collapsed during the pandemic as travel restrictions punctured demand. That demand has since largely returned. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has exacerbated the situation as various western countries shun Russian oil.
so bonzo it is not as simple as you try and make out, as usual you appear to be misinformed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 12:10 PM

from the same article
Will pump prices fall soon?

It is unlikely there will be a significant drop despite the rate of price growth slowing over the last week. JP Morgan has warned oil prices could surge 240% to $380 a barrel if Russia slashes production in response to western plans to cap energy prices. The bank said Russia could cut its oil production by as much as 5m barrels a day without causing excessive damage to its economy. That production cut would squeeze markets and push up prices. For drivers, that could spell further woes in the wallet."
it would appear that economic sanctions are not affecting Russia, they have found other markets and other countries who unlike the uk are not subservient to the USA, so it is not as simple as just supply and demand.
Russia is playing a part in all this too, Russia produces gas and oil Bonzo, did you knot know that in your ivory tower somewhere near Penge

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 12:11 PM

Sanctions on russia must never be removed whilst they are destroying Ukraine, whatever the cost to the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 12:43 PM

Russia holds 1,688 trillion cubic feet (Tcf) of proven gas reserves as of 2017, ranking 1st in the world and accounting for about 24% of the world's total natural gas reserves of 6,923 Tcf. Russia has proven reserves equivalent to 102.3 times its annual consumption.

In 2021, Russian crude and condensate output reached 10.5 million barrels per day (bpd), making up 14% of the world's total supply. Russia has oil and gas production facilities throughout the country, but the bulk of its fields are concentrated in western and eastern Siberia.

Bonzo you are happy to engage in an economic war, whatever the cost to the uk?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 12:56 PM

yet you do not condemn USA drone attacks on somalia iraq syria afghanistan all of which have occured since 2021

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 12:58 PM

Saudi Arabia will want grain from Russia, stolen or not, so they are not going to help anyone but Russia. Sanction the world if you must but it will make things wrong in another direction. Our board members, leaders and bankers have an agenda that means they can not care what happens to Bonzo and friends.

We made money the heaven on Earth

We'll all cringe in strife
from the warlords who impinge
on the essence of life.
Then we will be skinned and
injected by a toxic syringe   
made by the fringe
elite who merely grinned
as they continue their binge.

We are trapped by a dilemma of our own making

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 01:09 PM

OK drop sanctions against russia, aid them to walk through Europe - shall we have russian tanks in Whitehall by Christmas????????????????????? Don't be so fucking stupid Sandman.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 03:43 PM

We currently have 2 russian cruise missile subs in the North Sea - lets drop sanctions right away Sandman you damned Commy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 03:49 PM

Russia is no longer "commy" if you hadn't noticed, Bonzo. It is run by experienced capitalists trying to make billions before their bubble bursts. One thing we can agree on is that the sanctions must continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 01:50 PM

grain deals are happening, the people that run things take no notice of Bonzo orGnome
The United Nations has been working for over two months with NATO member Turkey, which has a maritime border with Ukraine and Russia in the Black Sea, to broker what UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres called a package deal to both resume Kyiv's exports and facilitate Russian grain and fertilizer shipments.
Bonzo and Gnome, so much for sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 02:51 PM

Don't be so insulting. If you can't post without making abusive ad hominem to other mudcat members just go away. Or if you really can't help yourself, then at least try posting something intelligent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 03:14 PM

Grain exports help Ukraine and the rest of the world far more than they help Russia. Beside which they are a pittance compared to gas and oil exports.

Don't worry about the ad hominem, SPB. It's par for the course. At least it isn't threats this time!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 05:11 PM

Bonzo, do you think it is ok for the usa to send drones and kill innocent people in 3 countries thousands of miles from the usa border,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 22 - 05:51 PM

Whataboutery abounds!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 03:00 AM

a question related to uk political topics, USA has attacked 3 countries thousands of miles from its borders, killing innocent civilians, that is a fact. ,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 03:37 AM

Whataboutery or whataboutism is the tactic of responding to one issue by raising another. That is also a fact. Not many people use it as it is plain for all to see and rarely works nowadays but I have come across it twice in the last few days on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 03:39 AM

Dave , it is called getting a balanced perspective. looking at EVERY INVASION going on in the world, every nations foreign news is biased and is propganda that includes the US the uk Russia and China.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 04:09 AM

viewing an event in isolation is foolish , events occur as a reaction to some other happening.
Bonzo seems to think Russia wants to take over the uk. historically Russia had a soviet empire called the soviet union , it could not adminster it any more, it fell apart ,,like most empires it had its day it becamoe over bureacratic and unwieldy, why would they want an ailing economy like the uk or want to take over Europe.The Russian Rouble is high what sense is their in invading europe, they have other markets to sell their gas etc, what use is marching into europe and the uk. they are more likely to take a leaf out of Chinas economic strategy

NATO has to have a bogeyman,mean while a lot of money has been made[ ON BOTH SIDES] out of selling armaments
China however is very clever it is investing all over africa in infra structre, a much more intelligent policy than either the usa or russia. I do not think they are doing it for entirely philanthropic reasons

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 04:39 AM

I am reminded once again of the following

"Now we have an expert on the topic who has spent his life studying his subject and, for balance, we have an idiot who read about it on the Internet."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 04:46 AM

BTW "looking at EVERY INVASION going on in the world".

I must have missed something. Remind me of all the invasions that are currently happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 04:50 AM

Dave, calling somebody an idiot, is against the rules of mudcat, as is calling somebody fucking stupid and a commy, we are all entitled to different opinions, but you have yet to put forward a rational argument that discredits the facts or the line of argument that i have pursued.
when in a discussion a person has to resort to insults, it is an indication that they cannot discuss rationally the points under discussion
meanwhile
Between 2001 and 2018, China loaned approximately $126 billion to African countries. Between 2001 and 2018, China invested $41 billion in FDI.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 05:15 AM

I have no idea what your argument is even about, Dick. You seem to be arguing against something that someone has not said (straw man) by bringing up another topic (whataboutety). As far as I can gather, you are saying that Putin's invasion of Ukraine is justified because the US and UK have are invading other places. They are not currently involved in any invasions as far as I am aware. Even if they were, two wrongs still do not make a right and they have little to do with UK politics anyway. Which brings me on to Mudcat rules. Please feel free to point the moderation team at this thread. I am sure they will remove all offensive remarks and all posts that are not relevant to this topic.

Now, back to UK political topics. I am more than happy to agree or disagree with anything you post that is relevant to UK politics on this thread. Please let us know what you are railing against and why as I, for one, am at a complete loss as to where this is going. I shall no longer respond to anything outside the scope of the thread as it is likely to be removed and I cannot respond reasonably to any argument that has no reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 06:09 AM

Am I allowed to fully agree with you Dave the Gnome??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 06:15 AM

If it warrants it, Bonzo, but I think we should keep it quiet :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 06:33 AM

The easy way is simply to ignore the off-topic nonsense. I recommend it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 04:23 PM

there doesn't seem much on-topic at the moment in uk politics. are traffic queues a result of brexit? which of the 2 candidates can appear more rigorous in appealing to a tiny group of brain-addled tories on the hot topic of being nastier to asylum seekers? not much else happening really

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 04:51 PM

On the topic of the traffic queues at Dover, I’m finding it hilarious that many of those in the queues are whining about the hard-border with the EU which they actually voted for! Presumably they thought that ending free-movement would be a one-way thing? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 05:16 PM

So we blame the French for doing proper passport checks that you are up against at every other international border. We criticise them for not recruiting extra staff at passport control, at their expense of course, even though 'twas we who voted for brexit. The whole thing is bloody hilarious. I know I'm not being fair, but every time I see a vox-poppite in a massive queue at Dover, I feel like asking 'em if they voted for brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 22 - 06:59 PM

Mrs Steve asked me tonight which of the two Tory candidates I'd prefer. She was perplexed to hear that it's a question I simply can't, won't, don't want to answer. They are two cheeks of the same arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 12:23 PM

IMO the Tory leadership contest has been conducted in an undignified manner,,which reflects badly [thank god] on their party.
remarks, appear to have become nastier and more personal. Truss has condemned conservative economic policy of the last seven years.
Weeks of Truss and Sunak tearing lumps out of each other should bring nothing but joy for Labour
Polly Toynbee in the Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 01:18 PM

Many Tories, including senior figures, are criticising the toxicity of the leadership campaign tactics, including the personal attacks and character-assasinations.

Funny thing though, they didn't criticise the same kind of toxicity, personal attacks, and character-assassination tactics when they were aimed at Senior Labour Party officials during the last couple of General Elections - they were all for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 02:52 PM

Labour are well able to damage themselves. They need to get their own house in order if they are to have any hope in winning the next election. Just relying on votes from people who are fed up with the present government is not enough. They have to offer a viable alternative.

From The Guardian.

Labour must heed the Forde report’s advice to end infighting

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 03:01 PM

Pass the popcorn please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 03:49 PM

i agree, Rain Dog.