BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 01:07 PM

Most of the time people are interested in solutions to problems they've come up against, ideas that, not so much because they are interesting. Of course that's no guarantee they'll be true, but that's a separate matter. But an awful lot of the time if it works it'll be pretty much true.

The more I think about it the more it seems to me that awakening curiosity actually is as near as we can get to a Silver Bullet.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 09:32 AM

When you look at the history of humans... the LONG history of several million years... it is obvious why our remote ancestors , as they developed the ability TO reason, wanted to know why 'things happened as they did'.
Storms, fire, death, seasons, stars...etc... all were bewildering, and needed answers. Enquiring minds came up with answers, and who would be surprised that the most interesting answers got the most adherents?

   Fast forward a couple of million years and many answers..in many areas... are now ingrained. Unfortunately, they are not always the same answers.... and not all humans have, or want, the answers that seem less interesting, especially when following all the varying trains of thought is simply too hard!

A reason renaissance? First there needs to be some standard of what counts AS reason... and that must overcome those millions of years of just believing what 'feels' good.

You think **Sisyphus** had a problem!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissancet
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 09:12 AM

Good for your parents, pfr. Mine were similar. I put None for religion on a form amd had a French school admin change it to Protestant because "All Americans are Protestant" [!].

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 06:33 AM

I mentioned fighting fire with fire with an inside job.
For example; releasing a conspiracy theory inside a conspiracy organization. "The Corpus Hermeticus is the 2nd century book used as a Bible for Q-Anon himself". It is the source of all his power.

-true believers will begin to snooze. Others will suspect black magic and devil worship. Some will follow the innocuous teachings back into the woodwork.
But its early and I could ne wrong.

When th 26th level of Scientology was exposed some remained true believers.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 05:46 AM

Precisely so, Dave. I think if there's a silver bullet it would be encouraging people to be curious, and to do use that appetite intelligently and persistently..

Kid's start out almost always being intensely curious. (If they aren't that's a reason to be concerned.) All too often that seems to get shut down as they grow.

The appetite for conspiracy has its positive side, it's an indication that the appetite to find out things is still alive. There's nothing wrong with being suspicious and chasing up conspiracy theories. The trouble is when people get satisfied with those theories uncritically. There should be ways of working on that.

The crazy conspiracy theories that people latch on to so often are precisely that - they are themselves conspiracies, and need to be exposed as such.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 20 - 04:57 AM

My eldest grandson (11) was worrying about photos of 'demons' and unexplained holes appearing somewhere. My daughter came up with one of the best bits of education for him I have seen. Abridged version for clarity of message -

I'm a huge fan of finding weird stories and photos on the internet and trying to find the origin of them!
...
I recommend you get in to internet sleuthing (trying to find things out!) of alleged paranormal photos as well, you'd be very good at it and it might help put anxieties to rest!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 05:57 PM

Well, he's a Green really, but some people get a bit confused about the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 05:55 PM

He didn't mean it, did he. That's popes for you.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 04:49 PM

There are a good few who've been saddled with that name over the years. One being Pope Francis, who certainly isn't one, but who was quoted as saying of the accusation "My response has always been that, if anything, it is the communists who think like Christians".

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 04:34 PM

Blimey, Kevin. The man in the Salford pulpit (the Catholic one) more or less ordered my grandma and grandad to vote Tory...

Give me the names of any commie Jesuits you ever encountered... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 04:22 PM

They were Jesuits, Steve, and by no means Tories generally, when you talked about stuff like that, but not in class.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 02:55 PM

I'm lucky my parents were post war young Labour idealists..

They enjoyed several years of carefree married life,
until a motorbike crash made them settle down and have me..

Then decided right from the start not to have me or my younger sibling christened,
or bring any talk of religion into our home..

That must have helped me keep an arms length perspective on all the jesus and god propaganda
drilled in at C of E infant and junior school..

[Parents never even revealed I had Jewish blood in me,
until I was about 21..]

When I was 15, at start of the new school year,
our ex ww2 army / metal work form teacher,
had us all line up in a queue,
while he ticked off our religion box on a form..

My turn, I said I had no religion,
as I'd not been chritened..

He responded "Don't be silly boy, you are christian.."
while ticking the required box...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 01:56 PM

And yet we have no compunction about sitting the children under a classroom crucifix, making them chant brainless "prayers" and telling them a pack of lies about non-existent deities in which they're supposed to believe...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 01:15 PM

My formal political education in a SW England 6th form College
between age 16 - 18..

"British Constitution and Govt &Politics"..

Basically polished us up to a default 'safe' starting position as young Liberals...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 01:02 PM

You never got round to political stuff because anyone trying it would have immediately been branded rabid commies by Tories. I know. I did try it. As a matter of fact, I think that a good deal of what's wrong with this country is the upshot of the lack of political education. In the last ten years we've elected Tory idiots four times and voted to leave the EU. I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 11:59 AM

So far as notions about using your brain, and questioning and so forth there was a fair bit of that in many classes, Steve, though we never got round to political stuff, which is as well.

The danger with school when it tries too hard is that it can inoculate kids against what's being promoted.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 09:10 AM

It's certainly true of me, too. The trouble with schooling (especially secondary) is that we are hidebound by the Victorian concept of discrete "subjects." When it comes to the issues we are discussing here (logic, reason, thinking, and I'd add personal relationships to those), they are issues that don't need "specialists" at all. Every teacher should be alerted in their training to the need to integrate all these areas into their everyday "subject" teaching. The days of drafting in the school nurse or the vicar to regale the poor little mites with their notions of love and sex should have been well and truly numbered decades ago, for example. It's all ALL our responsibility to the next generation, and if we take it on board it will make better people of us too.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 05:43 AM

"But very few are going to learn much of it outside of a classroom."

I'd say that pretty well nothing of that I learned in a classroom, and that would have been true of all my contemporaries. The very idea of learning that kind of stuff would have been pretty well unheard of when I was at school - or indeed since schooling had been in existence.

That doesn't mean that trying to deal with those things in schools isn't worth it. There,s an appalling level of ignorance (and indeed in some ways it seems to be growing - "knowing" things that are false is the worst kind of ignorance.) But there are real limits to how far that can ever be done through classroom learning. The crucial thing really isn't providing factual information, it's preserving curiosity and helping children improve their ability to satisfy that curiosity, and recognise when the answers they get don't make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 04:40 AM

so Kevin is saying, as i understand it, that individual children and aduklts need different approaxches all the more reason for smaller classes and more teachers

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: BobL
Date: 20 Dec 20 - 04:21 AM

And, possibly, about Charles I of England (although the similarities are a bit more nebulous)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 10:37 PM

someone needs to remind trump about Nicolae Ceau?escu...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 08:03 PM

I don't care how they learn critical thinking, so long as they learn it.

But very few are going to learn much of it outside of a classroom.

And, incredible as it may seem to others, it is now unusual in the U.S. for students to learn civics before college.

Thus the widespread belief - propounded by the President of the United States - that Article 2 of the Constitution gives him the "right to do anything" he wants.

It doesn't, but tens of millions seem not to care that he thinks that way.

Meanwhile, he's talking about declaring martial law to "re-run" the election in swing states till we get it right.

And disgraced-but-pardoned General Michael Flynn is urging him to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 07:10 PM

"Fairydom was/is childhood. Humandom is adulthood."

In so many ways...
I barely knew about Christmas and Santa until I was about 5, as we traveled and didn't have any local celebration around that time. We finally had a tree when I was in 2nd grade and a 'Santa' came to our school and I still like believing... and there were presents and milk & cookies left out for Santa, but the next year, in a different house, I 'think' I knew all the presents were from my parents... it just isn't clear. Then another move.. from New Orleans to Wichita in 1947 meant the Winter was spent in a rented basement. Then another move to our first house and that year, I was in 4th grade by Dec. and Christmas with Santa was mainly for my brother who was 4. He wanted my opinion about Santa.. I kinda let him believe for one year.

Fairies? Very briefly... There were ideas between my childhood and adulthood... and "The Wonder Book of Myths & Legends". Maybe that's where my history of preferring reason began.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 07:09 PM

A surprising number of people seem unable to understand that people differ greatly in the way they learn. Yes, we need to learn to think when we think, and to ask questions and examine whether the answers we are given stand up to examination. We need to have some understanding of how governments are supposed to work, and how change can happen.

But straightforward classes in how to reason, and about civics aren't ever going to be the way to learn those things for a lot of people. I don't just mean some people aren't clever enough to understand those lessons, or don't have the attention span expected, though that's part of it. But also there a radical difference in how even the most intelligent and committed people learn. Some of us do it by learning the rules in theory, and then applying it, some of us do it the other way, and the rules and theory come later, if at all. Some of us learn the scales and then how to build the chords, some of us learn the chords and later (maybe) find out about the scales and how the chords are built.

Use the wrong strategy and you risk shutting people out from ever learning. (As happens to most people when it comes to mathematics, just for an example.)

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 06:03 PM

Ebbie, great story!

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 05:50 PM

Sorry, guys. Please continue.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 05:05 PM

Mrrzy, you bring to mind a short story I once wrote where the protagonist is a fairy who, as a result of an unfortunate encounter with a caterpillar and loses her wings, wakes up and finds herself a human being. She is informed by a used-to-be fairy that there is a way to return to fairydom if she wishes, and she has to decide.

For a long time I didn't finish the story because I literally couldn't make the decision for her. Until the day I discovered that I had written an analogy.

Fairydom was/is childhood. Humandom is adulthood.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 04:56 PM

I am reminded of a song from a book, relating a version of Sleeping Beauty, when the last fairy comes and says You have not given this baby any actual gifts. Beauty, a pleasant singing voice etc are for *others* so that they will love her. But my gift [of enchanted sleep with marvelous dreams] is for her and her alone.

The song is a lament: I am the one called Sleeping Beauty / I never answer to that name / for I am a slave to love and duty / it was the kiss that brought the chain.

Basically the prince's kiss "for which I did not ask" woke her to pain and childbirth and other earthly sorrows, ah if only she could have stayed in her gifted sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 03:58 PM

This is an interesting thread, provoking all kinds of related thought, to the extent that I can follow it.

I had to go look up a line that I like in a book by Brenda Wineapple quoting Thomas Wentworth Higginson, abolitionist and activist, in reference to the necessity or efficacy of compromise; I will paraphrase: There are those who have been insisting that 2 plus 2 equals 6 but will now offer a compromise and concede that 2 plus 2 equals 5.

This discussion brings to mind what I used to consider while hanging over the crib of my sleeping baby: What do I want for this child? Do I want her to be smart and prosperous and beautiful and rich? Or is my wish for her to be a person who is curious, who has a questioning mind, is empathetic, one who balances justice with mercy, someone who is intelligent and clear minded, someone who needs people but at the same time is aware that the most essential things are in her own head...

I got lucky. My daughter is most of those things.


Steve Shaw's

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 03:41 PM

I liked the sound of the new deal. Succinct, a new start and honest.

New Deal 2? naw
Make middle class rich again? naw
Proof and Truth ? meh
People over Corps.   mmm no
4th quarter win? absolutely not
Beer and TV? been there like bread and circus.
Victory for Truth?
The Better Idea
Do your best
Back to the people.
A new start

What ever. names matter

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 02:46 PM

Maybe...???

Such skills can unfortunately be appropriated and misdirected for evil purposes...

Weird reversals and inversions have been occurring in the last few years,
thanks to the sinister agendas of the libertarian right...

Not helped by a new generation of young lefties,
and identity politics militants,
now becoming the puritanical control freak authoritarian establishment,
for libertarians to rail against...

..the left version of the Victorian morality Mary Whitehouse brigade...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 02:28 PM

"sceptisism, cynicism, iconoclasm, mistrust of authority.."

No wonder they don't want the vaccine.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 02:23 PM

"..teaching of critical thinking skills" is pretty similar to 'sneakily teaching how to think' that I'd like to see. I made a specific point that directly teaching **what to think** was to be avoided.
Stilly... since you are in Texas, I'm sure you are aware of both techniques being used in different ways and circumstances. I know that in Kansas both could be found in the same school. I once ended up in Mr. William's 6th period science class in the 8th grade, which every year got the 'honor' of parroting the biblical narrative in the Christmas program... "And there were in those days, shepherds.." etc...
   We got no option to opt out... I'm not sure what would have happened if anyone tried. I was still a couple of years from even worrying about it.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 01:49 PM

Stilly - when I weas a teenager in the 1970s,
we had the benefit of hippy and punk counter-culture
informing the music we listened to,
and the youth media magazine articles we read..

This was entirely outside of straight establishment school education.
That's how a lot of us acquired such positive life long skills..

sceptisism, cynicism, iconoclasm, mistrust of authority..

It was because I'd already acquired these skills.
which lead me to go back into education at 22,
specifically choosing a Humanities degree subject
which would further hone that skill set...

Sadly, since I was a student in the early 80s.
Society has become far more conservative,
deliberately combatting and mostly defeating counter culture influences on young minds.

Replacing it with conformism, irrational fear of 'the different',
and hostility towards any humanist progressive idealism...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 12:58 PM

I've skimmed through this topic and searched this page - re: teaching kids to think, I think the concept some of you were looking for is the teaching of critical thinking skills. This is not teaching kids what to think, but to question the sources and arrive at what appears to be The Truth, or a part of the truth, at any rate.

It's something a lot of students don't come across until they're in college, and even there don't necessarily learn how to apply those skills, but once learned, you are forever a skeptic and looking behind statements to see if the sources are reasonable or not. To see if it makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 12:53 PM

"It has always been my belief that 'most' Trumpites support him for what he does...or claims to be doing... and not for himself."

That has been my general assumption - the alternative, that half the population of the USA needed to be exorcised, was too depressing, and intrinsically improbable. But polls that indicate something like 80% of his voters believing his crazy claims about a massive voting fraud conspiracy, has threatened that optimistic assumption.

I'm hoping that after January 20 things might quieten down, and there'll be a return to sanity. There's a hymn, taken from a poem by the Quaker poet Whittier that expresses what I'd hope:

"Dear Lord and Father of mankind,
Forgive our foolish ways!
Reclothe us in our rightful mind,
In purer lives Thy service find,
In deeper reverence, praise."

Perhaps they might try singing that in those evangelical churches, and reflecting on the words.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 11:19 AM

It has always been my belief that 'most' Trumpites support him for what he does...or claims to be doing... and not for himself.
Polls have supported this, often showing that more people intend to vote for him than actually approve of him personally.

Recently, some religious fundamentalists have begun to pull back, after realizing that he didn't really 'believe' what they did, but was merely using them by giving lip-service to them.
But white nationalists, gun nuts and far-right Libertarians saw in his policies exactly what they needed to become more pushy.

   Yes, McGrath.. the warts are exactly what they like. Many of them know he was an incompetent fool... but they milked him for what they could get.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 20 - 08:26 AM

"As I'm no anarchist, I prefer to think that challenging ideas and asking for evidence is the way to go."

Those are very consistent with Anarchist ways of thinking and behaving. But it needs a lot of patience.

The frightening thing about the Trump followers is that most of them actually appear to find him someone to admire. For people to line up behind a leader much of the time means making a warts and all decision to put up with the less pleasant stuff they because on balance that seems a better choice.

But what's sick is when the attraction is to the warts themselves rather than the balancing factors. It's one thing when people put up with a leader being responsible for doing terrible things, or mean and nasty things, along with perhaps lowering unemployment, or building great enterprises - but it's something else when the terrible or nasty things are seen as admirable in themselves. "Evil, be thou my good."

If that's actually how it is in the States with Trump followers it's a sad prospect. It'll take a lot of patient work at an individual level to talk them down from the edge of the cliff, because they are clearly a very frightened bunch, and all the more dangerous for that.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 10:02 PM

"or quietly in your mind."

.. yes.. that's the tricky one..

.. the mouth might stay sealed, but body language and attitude is a dead giveaway..

.. over time, a bolshie bloke gets used to being unemployable...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 09:44 PM

Yep.. 'questioning authority' requires knowing when to do it directly or quietly in your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 08:57 PM

My excuse is I live too far away from London,
out in the arse end of SW England,
but I've only just discovered James O'Brien...

..intelligence, education, and reason versus conformist stupidity and ignorance...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 08:52 PM

I can question authority of a judge, teacher or a politician. A policeman is a different animal usually unconcerned with your civil rights so come on and be real. A politician, not to be confused with a crook, is someone like ourselves who is willing to stick their neck out.
Kids aren't interested in what they are told as much as what they see. If there is one thing you could repeat is that evil is caused by ignorance. A better way to convey 'question authority' is to say "Don't look up at people. Don't look down on people. See them evenly and you will see life fairly".

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 06:42 PM

Good perspective there, Bill. We do generally agree...

As for "questioning authority", I'm not too happy with that concept. It can get your head cut off or get you thrown in jail, or lose you your job, depending on where you live. You're not much use to anyone in either case. As I'm no anarchist, I prefer to think that challenging ideas and asking for evidence is the way to go. Or, at least, a start. Those questions can be addressed to the bloke in the pub or the man on the Clapham omnibus as well as those "in authority." Before you do any of it, it pays to check your facts and make sure you're on solid ground. And have friends.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 06:23 PM

I do my bit by dropping in on devious websites and making sensible remarks. For example, a recent video about a piddling 3.1 earthquake near Wichita was illustrated with a pic of a fractured highway.

I posted, "A weak 3.0 earthquake would not crack a highway like that, and the plants on the verge do not grow in Wichita. This picture was taken in a western desert."

When so-called Christians post landslides and floods, saying that they portend the end of the world, I post a post saying that these are normal, if not common, events on our dynamic planet.

A security video from an eastern country purported to show a mother abandoning her baby. I studied it closely and said, Look closely. I think that's a man.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 03:59 PM

Proposing everyone should take magic mushrooms
is dangerous bollox...

I grew up as a teenager in the magical mushroomy kingdom of South West England..
So do know this from experience, mine and local fried brain psilocybin casualty mates and acquaintances...

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 03:25 PM

Teaching people to question authority will be helpful during repressive and progressive times. If one has ever experienced Magic mushrooms, lsd or Akashic knowledge, the exerience of God can be a valuable experience even for your average Joe athiest.

There have been martyrs to the mind body connection revolution since the 60's. Today things are on the path of becoming better.
Education, transendence, independence and freedom are all quite appealing and necessary for a reason renaissance. It seems obvious but needs to be said aloud.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 02:00 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 15 Dec 20 - 08:57 PM
and |From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 16 Dec 20 - 11:53 AM

Steve: regarding your dismissal of "teaching kids to think"... I don't disagree at all with what you say about what SHOULD be done, but I think it's mostly details about 'how' to go about it. I certainly don't advocate spelling out any 'Here's how to think' rules to kids of any age... that soon looks like 'WHAT to think'. If "...question everything you tell them. To demand evidence." etc. are done well, yes.. logic WILL take care of itself.
At some point..perhaps in college ... some will, as I did, look for the basis and historical concepts behind what they already know.
   Also, there will always be pressure from some quarters (yes, fundamentalist religion) to NOT think and question. This pressure is very strong in many families and causes parents to complain about school and books differing from the 'truth' they get in church. I'm not sure what can be done about that except to hope that something will 'rub off' from others in their school.
Thousands of years of the very idea of 'divine knowledge' will not be overcome quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Dec 20 - 10:09 AM

The recently divorced wife of Amazon's Jeff Bezos has given 4.15 BILLION to higher educationand universities.
thats a healthy start.   https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/12/15/22176710/mackenzie-scott-bezos-philanthropy-speed-four-billion

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 20 - 07:05 PM

Que?

Subject: RE: BS: How can we restore a reason renaissance
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 20 - 06:13 PM

Yeah, without "content," there's nothing much to reason about.