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When does Folk = Not political music?
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Subject: Lyr Add: BREAD AND ROSES From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 10:15 AM ... and when is human rights political? NYC Celtic bands still looking for singer, as per earlier post... Contact InOBU@aol.com It is a sad comment on the state of Irish identity when six band members quit over doing any songs about civil rights, which they consider political (less than 5% of our music). What the hell is folk music about, if not the interests of our class, and if we exclude from our class interests the murder of Gypsies, the forced assimilation of American natives and theft of Indian land, then who are we as a working class, but a bunch of brain washed wage slaves. Here is an example of politically offensive music, I ask you... (it is a true story by the way...) I'll tell you all a story that took place the other day concerning a Romni, a Gypsy, you would say In Czechoslovakia, she lived a worker's life but in the Czech republic, just another Gypsy wife a mother of four children, it was a struggle every day Bread and Roses, Roses, Bread and Roses Grandmother told her, hard the changes she did see But though we had to labor, we were allowed to settle down Bread and Roses etc. One day the system crumbled, freedom swept the land The nazi gangs of hate that fell before the blood red might Bread and Roses etc. But caution was impossible, the hate was everywhere The court then tried her killers, for this was a land of law Bread and Roses etc. She finally got her bread and rose like every worker brave * Gadje, non-Gypsies ** Pumana, Gypsy feast for the dead |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Bert Date: 11 Jan 00 - 10:24 AM Larry, people would sooner not know about things like that. Keep singing it, LOUDER. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 10:32 AM Thanks Bert: That is why I bought a sound system! All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Áine Date: 11 Jan 00 - 10:38 AM Dear Larry, That is a WONDERFUL song that needs to be heard by as many people as possible. You will find the kind of folks you want in the group, never fear; although it might take a while. Keep up the good work, a stor! -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Midchuck Date: 11 Jan 00 - 10:39 AM Bert said: "people would sooner not know about things like that. Keep singing it, LOUDER." I disagree. Not that "folk" music shouldn't carry a political message, but with the idea that the way to get it across is to sing louder. I say the way to get it across is to make sure it's good, listenable music first, and then insert your political message with reasonable sublety. If I want to listen to a political speech, it doesn't need rhyme or melody. If I want to listen to a song, it has to stand on its own as a song, irrespective of the message. I do get a little cynical about how much folksinging with a political message involves preaching to the converted. Everyone who wishes to sing political folk songs should be required to sing "The House of Orange" in an Irish bar on Saturday night, as a sort of entrance exam. IMHO. Peter. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Bert Date: 11 Jan 00 - 11:11 AM Hi Mudchuck, I didn't mean LOUDER literally, I meant sing it so that people 'can hear it'. Sometimes a songwriter has a message that they 'must' get across and they must do so the best way that they can. Not all political songs need to be subtle, sometimes they are can be angry. I have not heard Larry sing his song, but if I were singing it, there would be lines that I would shout, 'get out you gipsy whore' for one. Bert. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE OTHER SIDE FOR JENNY From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 11:27 AM Actually, Bert, the song is rather gentle, however, one of the band members who quit over it said she did not feel comfortable doing the song unless she knew the other side of the story! The other side of a skinhead gang murdering a mother of four!?!?!?! Well..., about 3 am a few nights later I sat up in bed and said, she is right, I should tell the other side, so here it is a more angry song, and a bit louder...
THE OTHER SIDE FOR JENNY The total moral vacuum of the post collective state Look at me standing here, in my black leather rage My gaze upon a brown skin girl upon the footpath falls, Why is there a trial now, I've served my six months sentence, Remember in your apathy, we killed Gypsy gay and Jew the tune is a nineteenth-century boxing song... |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Anon Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:09 PM But none of that above is folk! |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: GeorgeH Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:19 PM InOBU - having argued "Republican Issues" with you in the past (sorry I dropped out of that the last time round, having just stirred the pot - sudden rush at work) - I'd just like to say I'm with you on this one. Or, to answer your question, perhaps "when it's bland, boring, and an irrelevent museum piece". Good luck in the recruitment . . G. (who clearly doen't know the "other side" of the six members' retirement and so is clearly talking in general terms here!! ) |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:20 PM Interesting, Anon, How do you define folk? I have always defined it as music of the folk... writen by working class for working class consumption on working class issues? For example, is Ewan McColl not folk? Or Eric Bogal, or Phil Ochs? I think the old definition that it is where you do not know who wrote is is more a definition of traditional, though, I think of traditional music as a living folk tradition? I think we need more definition on your point All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:23 PM Thanks George, and I wish the others got on Mudcat to discuss their point of view in this. I said that if anyone has an artistic reason for rejecting any of our songs, fine, we can either reject them or work on them, but as I dont censor the songs they bring into the band, if the rejection is content based, on human rights songs, I find that to be very worrysome in light of the degree to which we are becoming an apathetic society. Chears Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:43 PM HEY GREAT!!! We been arguin' over everything else and I hadn't checked my calendar, but I realize now that its time for our bi-monthly discussion on "What IS Folk." Sorry you may have missed some of the 958 earlier ones Larry, but we DO have a lot of new members, so let's get rolling!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:45 PM .....that was meant in humor my friend. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Anon Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:56 PM Ewan MaColl was a person who sang both folksongs and lots of other songs, including many he wrote. Calling him 'folk' doesn't make all the songs he sang folksongs. The same goes for Pete Seegar and Oscar Brand, who rarely sang a straight folk song. They usually revised it enough to make it a 'Pete Seegar song' or an 'Oscar Brand Song'. That process of revising folk songs and calling the new version 'folk' is a continuing process. The subject has been discussed in various threads here for years, from long before I got acquainted with the Mudcat Forum. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Mbo Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:58 PM Larry, I think it's a song worth singing. There are many things that go on in this world that people have no idea about. Bringing these stories to the forefront gives you a chance to let others know. What you don't know can't hurt you is a popular cliche, but I think if we do know about these worldwide incidents, maybe--just maybe, we could do something about it. It lets us see the hate and oppression we must wipe out in this world. As for being folk--you're bally well right it's folk! I don't really want to get into a huge discussion about what IS folk, but personally I think it should be something that will stand the test of time, and be passed down from generation to generation (after all that's basically what folk is). Songs like yours let people understand where we've come from and where we're at--and that when they're sung years & years into the future, when peace and freedom for all reigns, you can still remember those who bought you that freedom with their lives, and honor them. We are their heirs, and it is our part not to make the same mistakes and injustices that have occured in the past. Just my opinion. I'd sing that song, and do a hundred more like it! Music is not only for entertainment. It's a tool, and a very powerful one. Use it. BTW Larry, do you play Gypsy music on your Uilleann pipes! That would RULE! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 01:02 PM No problemo Spaw old chum: no offence taken I supose the real question is one of apathy not definitions. Those who wish to say Shoals of Herring is not folk because Ewan wrote it, well, fine, where ever we chose to limit our abstraction for any word within reason does not offend me. What I find a concern in, is the growing feeling that if you care about others and sing about it, it is in poor taste, or as in my case, if you live it and sing it, it is in poor taste. But, then again, as Bird Parker said, if you dont live it, it wont come out of the horn. Eh? (and no Bird Parker was not a folkie) Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Mbo Date: 11 Jan 00 - 01:02 PM Oh, and if noone thinks the Celtic songs I WRITE are really folk, then you can call them "new European rural acoustic music". Has a nice ring, doesn't it? :{> --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 01:06 PM Hey Mbo: I do a few Gypsy songs on the Uilleann pipes. I prefer the kind of stuff that is more internal Gypsy music, like the Kali Jag group, from Hungery. What most people think of Gypsy music, sounds a bit like Klesmer, was orgigionaly for outside consumption. I apreciate the sentiment old pal, all the best, Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Rick Fielding Date: 11 Jan 00 - 01:11 PM Understand your dilemma Larry. I'm afraid your on the right track, although it may be a quite lengthy track. The criteria for being in your band becomes much more than just finding folks who'll show up for rehearsals, sing on key, and not get too drunk to play. In fact, this is what all "Band leaders" MUST go through. Bill Monroe insisted the music be played HIS way, ie: often in keys (B,E, etc.) that old time musicians (fiddlers) had NEVER been asked to do. The Weavers: Do you think for one minute that when Erik Darling, or Frank Hamilton (who were not C.P. members) joined that band, they weren't a little edgy about what kind of lists their names might go on, and how it might affect their future.(Frank's here, so he might have an opinion) Didn't seem to matter, cause they both became important contributors. The Del Vikings: Being the first integrated band in Rock music held a huge number of dificulties in store. Unless I'm mistaken, the Clancy's and Tommy Makem came from different sides of the fence. For many years I've combined traditional, contemporary AND political music in my concerts. Also SATIRE and PARODIES which can cause trouble at the best of times. When I've put bands together, I've had to use a bit of a "litmus test" (do excuse me bringing party political terms in here) myself. One of my favourite musical buddies has recently started looking for his "roots", and finds the gospel songs I love to sing "a bit much" for him at this point. It's not his problem...it's something I have to deal with. Good luck in finding a band that will make you happy. Rick |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Petr Date: 11 Jan 00 - 01:16 PM Having been born in the former Czechoslovakia - I think the current intolerance is a great shame. The Romany gypsies tended to be free spirits and nomadic - when the communists forced them to settle into govt housing they werent used to it and some of them initially broke up the furniture and made fires in the living room. Like north american natives they did not fit the mold of a so-called modern society. But ask the Czechs if they want to go back to the revolution? You certainly wouldnt be allowed to sing your song under them. Here is an example of a traditional folk song the communists banned. Nemelem, nemelem, Nemelem, nemelem, voda na vzala mlyn. We are not milling, ..etc The water took away our mill. Funny, how the communists were scared of a little song. Petr |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Gary T Date: 11 Jan 00 - 01:21 PM All right, I'll jump in and ruffle some feathers. There's plenty of folk and folkish music that's not political. For example, though there are plenty of Irish rebel songs, there's also "The Little Beggarman", "Bridget Flynn", and "The Star of the County Down". Personally, I find most overtly political songs rather tiresome. I also find it bothersome that virtually all of them are from the same (usually leftist) point of view. Have you ever heard a folk song (or any song) that speaks of the negative aspects of trade unions? This may be hard to relate to for those of us who have "activist" mentalities, but I can assure you I'm not the only one who finds it less than pleasant to feel I'm being preached to in the name of art and/or entertainment. I don't mean to pick on InOBU, but the examples are here so I'll refer to them. The "Bread and Roses" song doesn't grab me (that's reading the lyrics, I haven't heard it). It just comes across as espousing a cause, and though I shudder at the injustices it describes, I frankly don't care to embrace every worthy cause out there. The "Other Side" song strikes me as a joke. It may purport to show the other side, but it clearly comes from the same point of view as the first song, only nominally trying to put voice to the "bad guy". Nobody does anything without a reason. Sometimes the reasons are godawful or irrational, but they're there. Most likely in this case there is a longstanding hatred of Gypsies with roots that go deep into the past. A close study of the Balkans or Northern Ireland may give some insight into the history that shapes feelings and attitudes that often seem somewhat senseless to outsiders. It's a pretty safe bet that someone who didn't get much out of singing the first song isn't going to feel any more inclined to sing the second one. I accept that many folkies are politically inclined and want to incorporate that into some of their music. Heck, Peter, Paul, and Mary couldn't take the stage without championing their favorite cause(s). But please be aware that not all of us are oriented that way or want that out of our music. Presumably, this is the case with the 6 band members who quit. I'm sure there's someone out there who can fill the bill as the right singer for the band, but please don't castigate those who don't fit that mold. Well, that's my piece. Flame suit on, fire away! (BG) |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Áine Date: 11 Jan 00 - 01:41 PM Dear Gary, I think that most 'Catters can discuss this issue without resorting to 'flaming' you. But, the old adage still applies -- 'Be careful what you ask for, because you just might get it.' As to your opinion about 'folk/folkish' music and political agendas -- I don't agree with you; however, I think your opinion is similar to those folks who look at paintings or sculpture and say, 'I know what I like and that ain't it.' Well, different strokes for different folks. If you don't want to sing a song, don't sing it. And you have every right to listen to the music that pleases you, too. Fortunately, there's enough room in any type/genre of music for everyone. Larry -- Did you ever see a film entitled 'Gadjo Dilo'? It came out last year or in late '98, a French film, about a young man in Romania searching for a Rom singer that his uncle listened to. He meets a young Rom girl who, as his 'entry ticket' into the inner Rom world, takes him to hear the 'real' Rom music (as opposed to that performed for outsiders). It's a wonderful film, with even more wonderful music, which deals with the present day attitudes in Eastern Europe towards the Rom. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Bert Date: 11 Jan 00 - 01:48 PM Anon, Perhaps they are not 'folk' but some of us like to 'think' that they are. GaryT, people have to sing what they have to sing. If we write a song that has any sort of message, however mild, then someone will take it a 'preaching'. Many of us, inObu and even Barry Finn, write songs that have very strong messages, and others like myself tend to have a lighter approach. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 01:49 PM Hey Gary! Sure there is lots of anti trade union folk, lots of anti left folk, even from the left, as with the song a pal of mine who was in the Abraham Lincoln Brigage in Spain sings, The Workers flag is growing pink Its nay say red as you would think! And Petr, I am afraid Roma were not happy go lucky and nomadic. They were the victems of forced migration, enforced by law, and the depth of discrimination cannot be accounted for by the missdeads of Roma. I accept that you acknowlege the depth of wrong of the descrimination, however, the point of the song is that democracy, as tyrany of the majority at the expence of the minority, is a crime against humanity. Minority rights in any nation, takes the input of anti democratic institutions like courts, and when the courts give 6 month sentences to murderers, because of the color of their skin, democracy fails, and the next step, as we see in two towns in the Czech republic, is walled Ghettos, and then what? A Ukrainina friend told me not to judge a society by the treatment of a single ethnic minority, well if that is the case, the south in the early part of what is now the last century was doing rather well, eh? By the way, things are not much better for Roma in the US, where there is some 90% illiteracy, forced migration, and racial profiling by the police, of the perphaps one million Roma here (there are not accurate statistics because of US governmental apathy). So I am not picking on the Czech republic alone. It is only that when the US Congress asked a friend of mine Dr. Dave Crowe, a leading expert of Roma and eastern European history, to list the nations of Eastern Europe from good to bad, on treatement of Roma, he said, we have to start with bad, there is no nation where things are good, but the worst is the Czech Republic, followed closly by Rumania. Democracy is a greater responsibility than many young nations realize - good luck. Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Ringer Date: 11 Jan 00 - 01:55 PM Oh, come on, Aine -- there are lots of traditional songs which haven't got a political message. Though I'm sure you can find lots of exceptions, in general Broken Token songs aren't political (eg A Fair Maid Walking) You may not share his opinions, but I can't see how you can disagree with what he says.
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Lorne M. Date: 11 Jan 00 - 01:58 PM Well I suppose the broader question here is what constitutes ENTERTAINMENT? And folk music's role as an entertainment medium? My personal opinion, is that the fundamental purpose of entertainment is to provide an escape from all of the realities, political, religious, sexist, discriminatory and contraversial issues we all face and are subjected to in our day to day lives. While certain ''folk music'' does provide this escape, there is other folk music that CONFRONTS and CHALLENGES our viewpoints.....and causes us to ask even more questions. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but to me exploits the entertainment value as the vehicle to propogate all of the types of issues as mentioned above, and I must disagree with this exploitation. I have a great respect for people like Pete Seeger (Joan Biaz) and many other folk artists as far as their musical talents go, but it was Seeger's political musically-woven views that kept him blacklisted from televison for 17 years. The masses want to be entertained. They want a momentary escape from reality. They don't want to be lectured, preached to, or confronted by sensitive opinions and viewpoints of others. This is why folk music has a very select group of followers and will never be embraced as a mainstream musical vehicle. The hippies of the 60s and early 70s are today's ''Folkies'' and are the kind of audience this music aspires to. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 02:00 PM Dear Aine: I did, and it was a wonderful film as Dances With Wolves was a fine piece of film, that was not loved by natives, for the One Lone White Man Savior syndrom, it presented. Gadjo Dilo deeply offended American Roma, who are a cultureal isolate, and are, as a result, much more in keeping with traditional concepts of moral behavior than are some European Roma. Still, Tony Gatlif could not get Roma to say some of the things he wrote, so following the Romaness, the subtitles say very different things. Contrary to the steriotype, Romani women are VERY modest, and there are strong coustoms about not discussing certain sexual things between men and women or intergenerationaly. So when the film was first shown in California, Roma walked out. In New York, I saw it in a special showing with some Roma elders. We had women with us, who were working in my project on Roma rights (I am no longer there for resons that are very complex) We had to get up and move accross the theatre about half way through. I thought the best part of the movie was the first quarter, where the Frenchmen had no idea what was happening, and the Roma saw him in terms of steriotypes used against them, murderer, chicken thief etc. Although it presents a pointent view of the distruction of a Roma village, the reality is that Roma villiges in Rumania were burned without provocation. But, that all said, it did a great job to awaken many people to the plight of Eastern European Roma, and Tony makes great films, politically I liked Latcho Drom better, as it did less fictionalizing, though again, his subtitles did not follow the Romaness when he wanted to make a point. Nyees tuka, shaya, hai das baxtalay: Lolya (Larry) |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 02:05 PM Dear Bald Eagal: Many songs that seem to be not political are when you know the history, for example, many hunting songs are about enclosure - for example Johney of Bradys Lea, and some love songs are vield nationalist songs... so, for what its worth? The point is folk is not one thing or the other, except of cource the song, the one thing or the other! So I went to a wee girl, that I for some time knew to tell her what me mother was advising me to do Whats your errand cried the sister, whats your errand cried the mother and to cut the story short says I its the one thing and the other Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Bert Date: 11 Jan 00 - 02:28 PM Larry, I think it may be the time to repeat myself..... people would sooner not know about things like that. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jan 00 - 02:30 PM Broken token songs aren't political? Hunting songs aren't political? You're joking.
Anything can be political at some time or place.
Chopping down a tree is political. Eating a hamburger is political, Driving a car, or firing a gun is political. Smoking is very political. Hunting is political. Religion is political. Letting your hair grow long or getting it cut short is political. Which footbakll team yo support is. Love is political. Singing songs and making music is political.
All those things can mean the difference between life or death at some time or place.
We could find songs about all these things that everyone would recognise as political. And you can find situations where songs that arer normally thougt of as non-political, and were very lkikely never thought of as being political by the people who wrote them, take on a sharp political meaning.
And when the times change, the same songs seem non-political. Half our nursery rhymes probably started out as political.
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Wesley S Date: 11 Jan 00 - 02:58 PM Excuse my ignorence but does Roma = Gypsy ? And is there any relationship between Roma and Rumania ? Thanks - interesting stuff. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Gary T Date: 11 Jan 00 - 03:04 PM Yes, and yes, but someone more knowledgeable than I will be needed to elaborate. (Linguistically, the words come from the Latin "Roma" [Rome]--Rumanian is a romance language, like Italian, French, Spanish, etc.; not a Slavic language as is found in its geographical neighbors.) |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 03:12 PM Hi Westley: Rom means man and Roma mean men in Romaness, the language of Gypsies. It is the internal term and proper term for Gypsy, as with many American Indian nations which refer to themselves as the people. Romaness is about 70% Hindi, with persian gramar and barrowed words from many languages. The name Rumania comes from the Roman Empire, and it is just a coincidence that many Roma (my great grandfather among them) where held in slavery in that country up until 1864 ( a good year for ending slavery) Roma slavery in Rumania lasted 600 years. Unlike serfs, Roma were bought and sold and families were broken up. With the end of slavery, Roma were forced onto the roads, no 14th amendment there. Other Roma people are the Romanichales, Roma of Scottland and England and wales, who were not inslaved, the Tatare, and the Kaale of Scandinavia, all who came out of India as part of the Romani migration about one thousand years ago. Irish Pavees (Travellers) are likely a decendant culture through the intermarrige of nomadic Irish families and Romanichal bands. Thanks for the interest Westley All the best Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Gary T Date: 11 Jan 00 - 03:45 PM I stand corrected of the origin of "Rom/Roma". |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: MTed Date: 11 Jan 00 - 04:23 PM Larry, I am with you on this whole Gypsy thing (which has been ignored by too many allegedly "morally and socially concerned" people for too long), and with you on the idea that music needs to have a social conscience-- I can see that some performers might not be comfortable doing music with the emotional directness of your song, but that is an artistic question--in the same way that some performers are laid back and others are "in-your-face", (Sorry to break this to you, but you're never gonna be a lounge act!!), and you should find some performers who want to have the kind of relationship with their audience that your stuff requires-- For me (though I do not perform any more), the emotional relationship with the audience is the critical thing--whether you are singing a song that has an overt message about political and social justice, or it is just about a foggy day somewhere or other--people who just want to sit like a lump in front of a room full of people and crank their way through a note for note re-creation of something folk or traditional get no respect from me at all-- As to the woman who wanted to hear the other side, I am afraid that I would have lost it when I heard that--your response song was, maybe, a tad heavy handed, but I wouldn't have taken the time to write anything down for here, I would have screamed it out at the top of my lungs, and used a few choice adjectives that I save for such occassions in the mix-- As to the folk question, you are writing in a folk idiom, you use musical figures in a way that is consistant with a tradition, and your lyrical form is consistant with one that has been used for many other such songs over time-- End of story-- |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: JedMarum Date: 11 Jan 00 - 04:24 PM spaw - as always; you're a scream! |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Little Neophyte Date: 11 Jan 00 - 04:32 PM If it wasn't for Larry's constant efforts to explain the the struggling situation gypsies face, and everything they have gone through, I would have never understood it. For me that is quite personal, since my family comes from a bordering Roma village. I usually have a difficult time paying attention to political issues, but the passion Larry expresses on these issues, brings them to my attention. I have learned a great deal from Larry's folk songs, and I have also learned a great deal from his postings discussing gypsy issues. For this I am truly thankful. BB
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: JedMarum Date: 11 Jan 00 - 04:46 PM OBU - you are a man with a mission. As our personalities and our personal goals are reflected in the music we choose to write and/or perform, your mission is clear to your audience and your music mates. It may well be the case that your fellow musicians may have objected more to the zeal of your cause, then your cause itself. In short may not be the message your friends shy away from ... but your fire! Best of luck rebounding from this situation, and I am sure you will! |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: northfolk/al cholger Date: 11 Jan 00 - 04:53 PM Brothers and Sisters, It is not just the content that makes a song a political song...Utah Phillips has been heard to say that "in a mass market economy, any song that you sing yourself is a revolutionary song". My version of the folk process includes passing music and or stories from one to another, all the while crafting them to an ever changing need. Keep on SINGING, Larry, I'll be the guy right in back of you, singing along.... |
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Subject: Lyr Add: CENTURIES OF PAIN/BALLAD OF AMADOU DIALLO From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:02 PM Ah Liam, Bonnie and all thanks, you are a salve in the face of travails, none of which are unexpected, and small compared to what I have seen and been through... as to screaming at my young friend who wanted to know the other side, one of the band said to her, at the time, there is no other side to racist murder. On the other hand, my dad, who was a coal miner-poet-actor-playwright and poet said to me, though I expect he heard it somewhere before, a writer is the guy who thinks about what he should have said an hour late... If we think about what we should have said, either you get a good song or a headache! Care to hear a song about Amadou Diallo? For you all who are not in New York Amadou Diallo was a young African who was shot 30 sometimes in his hallway by police who mistook him for a rape suspect. Just this week the trial of the police officers was moved from New York City to Albany, upstate, where it is rare to find a Black man in the jury pool. CENTURIES OF PAIN THE BALLAD OF AMADOU DIALLO Amadou was born, where humanity sprang from, He came to a land of gold, where his homelands wealth was sold, Coming home one night, in his hallways stark white light, A mother came to take, her child back to lie |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: InOBU Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:05 PM Hi Al: Thanks, Utah Phillips also said, This stuff isnt poetry, it isnt how many seas can a white dove sail, its Dump the bosses off your back! God bless Utah and all my union brothers and sisters In One Big Union Larry |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Áine Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:27 PM Well and beautifully said, Larry. We can add no more. Le ghra, Áine |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:30 PM I wouldn't bet on it Aine. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Mbo Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:46 PM I was just reading my earlier post and had an interesting though Music is a tool As a pulley, it can lift us up As a chainsaw, it can pull us down As a clamp, it can hold us together As a saw, it can cut us apart As a hammer, it can drive a point home As a ladder it can help us reach others Take good care of your tools. --Mbo
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:48 PM ........like I said................ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: lamarca Date: 11 Jan 00 - 06:19 PM You're right, Spaw... I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here. The viewpoint of a poorly educated, prejudiced young man - God, it's hard not to type "ignorant, racist punk", but this is an exercise in trying to understand the world from the point of view of someone who is capable of performing the horrific acts described by Larry in his song. Let me start again with a quote from a column by Molly Ivins in her latest collection, You Got to Dance With Them That Brung You:
"Most of the racism you see is misdirected anger, from your basic Ku Klux Kluckers (who think black folks are somehow responsible for the way the world is run) to the folks who decide that illegal immigrants are responsible for the decline of civilization (not to mention the American economy) to those Einsteins who have analyzed our problems and determined that teenaged welfare mothers are behind the collapse of "values". The trouble with blaming powerless people is that although it's not nearly as scary as blaming the powerful, it does miss the point.... Molly Ivins, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, May 6, 1997 Most genocidal crimes, from the mass murders in Bosnia and Rwanda, to the murders of Rom or Jews or blacks or homosexuals by individuals, have, at their root, some common factors: 1. They are usually perpetrated by young men with little education and poor job prospects, (if any), who look at the world around them and wonder why they're not sharing in the grotesque wealth that is visible but completely unattainable. 2. These young men are angry at their place in life, and looking for reasons why they're stuck where they are. 3. Manipulative individuals looking for personal power (from Radovan Karajich to Rush Limbaugh) tell these hopeless people that "Psst - it's the fault of those (fill in the blank with your favorite scapegoat - blacks, immigrants, Rom, homosexuals, etc.). They are taking your jobs away. They are getting "Special treatment" under the law. They are lusting after your women. They engage in horrible religious practices and eat babies. Follow me and get rid of Them, and everything will be better!" The manipulators can tell any lies about another culture or race or people that they want, because their listeners don't have the intelligence or education or ability to find other sources of information. They're poor and un/underemployed, and It Must Be Somebody's Fault. I'm not trying to excuse racist murder, but more evil than the murderers are the politicians and personalities that profit from spreading a message of hate onto fertile ground, ground that is fertile for hate because of the incredible disparities between the haves and the have-nots in today's world. As Molly Ivins says, it is easier to blame/hate the powerless, because to try to fight those with real power is often futile and scary. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Wesley S Date: 11 Jan 00 - 06:26 PM I would think that it would be better to sing the songs you love on the street if need be than to settle on working with people that don't share the same vision and ideals. Or would it be too much of a compromise to divorce yourself from the political music and perform "safe" songs with the band and your other songs as a solo ?? Maybe you could start doing opening sets for your own band? ? But don't settle - keep fighting the good fight. |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Little Neophyte Date: 11 Jan 00 - 07:46 PM Lamarca, in my experience I have found it best to delve into the mind of goodness rather than into the mind of hatred. BB |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Rick Fielding Date: 11 Jan 00 - 07:56 PM INOBU, what kind of venues are you looking for with your band? Rick (still supportive as in first post) |
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Subject: RE: When does Folk = Not political music? From: Áine Date: 11 Jan 00 - 08:16 PM Dear Bonnie, I'm afraid I have to disagree with your last post. To combat the mind of hatred, one has to understand it; and, understanding can only come by delving therein. But, I think we could agree that you 'shouldn't lay down with the dogs, because you might get up with the fleas.' -- Áine |
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