BS: Are we alone?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 06:46 PM

Yes.. a " retrospective view" of an event tells us most of what we need to know about it...except causality and accuracy.... that is, whether our senses were deceived in any way. Senses and memories are often times confused, and we know that eyewitnesses of events DO disagree--as in Jan. 6th.

Discerning UNreality is one thing. Clarifying reality is usually much harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 04:33 PM

We are in agreement except that a retrospective view of any state of consciousness reveals what it was - be it a dream or other.

PS I once found an original Beethoven scrape manuscript that I began to transcribe to see if I could alter or enhance when I noticed that the note I would write would dissolve after I wrote it,
because it was a dream. It wasn't hard to discern the unreality.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 03:40 PM

No one can doubt that you... or anyone ... had personal 'experiences'.

We just cannot base general public knowledge on them unless they are some combination of replicable, recordable, predictible, and coherently explainable.

The "Miracle at Lourdes" was a personable experience of two young girls who 'saw' a religious vision. People WANTED to believe it.

It can be hard to distinguish a vivid dream from an "Out of the Body" experience.. and from a near-death experience. (I once had a vivid dream about a friend from high school that had me composing an anxious letter... until I realized that the details were fading as I wrote.) And 12 eyewitness reports of traffic accidents, shootings and UFOs can vary widely.... which is one reason police body cams and other digital monitoring equipment is becoming popular. Right now I can't remember if you ever posted any details of YOUR experiences, but if you experienced something, I cannot doubt that you are recounting things honestly. Neither can I take your honest report at face value.

   There are so many things that can be the source or 'cause' of an experience that sorting genuinely possible events from old hoaxes and honest mistakes is a never ending task.

I will continue to **doubt** but not to directly **deny**.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 02:11 PM

5,000 year old hoax of history?
probably older.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 10:37 AM

Bill I am honest when I tell you sometimes I wish that I could afford the luxury of my early skepticism or that the 4 visual experiences and one audible phenomena had not happened to me. That this topic is just a 5,000 old hoax of history. That it did not resemble a proof of God fallacy. That there is not a different take on intelligent life because we are the only game in town but I can't.

I know our own experience is more important to ourselves than to other people or that coincidence has a major role to play in our billions of interactions. When we consider Kruger Dunning its amazing we can agree on anything at all. There are certain realities we can agree upon but they are usually the self centered ones.

I will remind you of Carl Sagan's book Contact when Ellie appearded before Congress with no evidence and is justifiably criticised despite withheld evidence. While the character was more passionate and invested, I too can not abandon the personal reality of my collective experience. I would sooner claim love is a total delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 08:37 PM

Don..."I have to laugh that an intelligence that can use space/time and mass/energy to propel craft would not know of our technology spread of cell phone cameras."

   Sounds like certain 'proofs of God'. And resembles the story of the 100 MPG carburetor that was rumored in the 50s and of it 60s. Of course no one could find the plans or a model of it... the oil companies hid them! Speculation about 'alien intelligence' that seems to already posit it is a prime example of a logical fallacy.
I repeat. I hope we DO find some... but I'll wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 04:11 PM

If you are an indoor persom you may never have had the experience of finding life everywhere you look. When it comes to in, on and around Earth its everywhere. There are even fish deep underground below Death Valley.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: skarpi
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 03:20 PM

Are we alone ?
NO we are not .
all the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 11:54 AM

There is a current meme that asks why are there so few cell phone images of UAP?

I have to laugh that an intelligence that can use space/time and mass/energy to propel craft would not know of our technology spread of cell phone cameras. It seems they have made adjustments to encounter rules.

They seem to say through their silence that its good for you to know we exist but don't call us, we'll call you. I also believe we have become more beligerant in the last 80 years from their perspective.
Bottom line is we probably have proved ourselves recently untrustworthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 08:47 PM

The Tyson link is a GREAT link into understanding dimensions and inspires insight into picturing the shape of our curved space universe. This link makes quick work what took me years to piece together after I had an unusual sighting in Rochester NY.
Its taken 40 years but I can now visualize a hypercube easily.

aside:
I always felt this was an open universe but evidence is working against my initial early guess.

Right now I am thinking about imaginary time in a early universe where gravity and density does not allow for normal time as we know it now. Its a different way of expressing inflation theory.

ps My new lap top has me amazed how much easier it is to text.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 07:27 PM

Yes... makes perfect sense. Law & science are different realms. Science can sometimes aid legal investigations, but eyewitnesses ..the more who agree, the merrier... are often crucial. It all depends on what question is being asked. I'm still working my way thru that interview and exposition to sort out exactly how Tyson explains it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 05:53 PM

In law eyewitness testimony is given a great weight but in science it is the lowest form of proof. Dr. Tyson

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 09:43 AM

I viewed the introduction to 'UFOs Friend, Foe or Fantasy' on MSNBC on 'The Beat with Ari Melber' 3 days ago. His guests were former CIA director Brennon and astronomer Dyson. The similarities of attitudes is of course my opinion but I enjoy the discourse of burdon of proof which is also fundamental in the philosophy of LAW.
The show was a fair and interesting discussion, especially Brennon.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 09:20 AM

Mind? Not if it's relevant to the discussion. I try to be polite with only occasional nonsense. But Walter's view of UFOs WAS the point.


...and again.. where did you get the 'h'? It's Cronkite.
It's important when doing searches.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 07:24 AM

Walter Chronkite was always distinguished, polite, and no nonsense.
Surely you don't mind a societal status quo comparison?
And I'm NOT calling you Shirley.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 07:15 PM

A giant, colorful image of Saturn tells me nothing about his POV.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 03:39 PM

auroas


A show called ufos friend foe or fantasy aired in 1965 hosted by Walter.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 01:04 PM

My POV?? You fail to provide a link or quote from Walter Cronkite (no H).
My POV, as stated several times, is simply waiting for evidence... and a bit of "The burden of proof is on the assertor." Spell check says it doesn't recognize assertor... but...this clarifies it.

https://www.logicalfallacies.org/burden-of-proof.html

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 12:33 PM

I loved the musical part of the Spilberg Close Encounter movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yIp2huYgD8


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reported_UFO_sightings

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 11:31 AM

So.. what's the problem...???

It aint that difficult for ordinary intelligent folks to be healthily open minded,
and skeptical at the same time...


'They' might exist - I hope they do..

Though I'd prefer it if they are friendly, musical, and not tedious egotists...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 09:48 AM

I hope to never see the Omega variant or another damned (not blessed) Rush Limbaugh or Rummy.
I've noticed that Bill's pov is identical to Walter Chronkite in 1965. What we are dicussing is really two seperate questions. One is what are those objects seen by eyes, radar and other sensors? The other question is who or what directs them?
We should not arrogantly dismiss all explanations. Even Neil Degrass Dyson dimisses all evidence before cell phones by looking at only military releases of grainy monochromatic video. He says we need better evidence. I used to play the skeptic on public media like Hyneck but like him I too changed my mind over time. It was not a suspension of belief but by a preponderence of evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 08:18 PM

You got it... ;-)

No tears shed this end for that particular Donald. Neocon arsehole....

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 06:15 PM

Donald Rumsfeld passed today. He it was who made the famous statement, which was sometimes used against him, that "there are known knowns":

Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones.

Similarly, there are people who think they know what they're talking about, people who know what they are talking about, people who know they don't know what they're talking about, and people who don't know they don't know what they're talking about. This last case is often referred to in whole or in part as an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect

We have by no means exhausted the topic. There are the BSers, those who simply want to be paid attention to, or believed, for the time being. One such well known sample was Rush Limbaugh of blessed memory. I tend to regard 'the newt' Gingrich as another example, but I have not amassed evidence to that effect. And there are the online charmers who will say anything to appear to be of interest, or relevant, topical, engaging, consciencious, moral, etc. etc. There is a great history of success with this tactic in the United States. At least one recent President achieved placement with this technique and he may very well keep trying it. So aren't we lucky to have our own variant right here in this forum, in this thread even.

But I don't think he's a Delta variant. Yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 02:40 PM

Dontrumpuel:

I love your similarity to the past lamented President and your ability to justify whatever BS you spout or have spouted. I've issued non sequitors with more hair on their chest than all of your softcore aphorisms laid end to end.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 12:52 PM

The few talents I have helped me explore the esoteric. People who have the usual recognized talents help them see the universe in a conceited and narcissistic pov. It is evident in the divided opinions here. Truth however is not democratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 10:59 PM

its called a setup for a joke
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/24/books/ufo-books.html

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 05:32 AM

Don, you "can't divulge in a public forum"? That is a red flag waved by charlatans, as I am sure you know. You lost a LOT of credibility there.

Bill, your news about your wife's health is devastating.
Like you, she is a special person and I love you both.

But on to my eccentricities:
Let me throw something really bizarre into this too, too erudite discussion.
What if the 'aliens' are amongst us - but are not from outer space or .... What if they are here but in our oceans or in our mountains/earth?
My benefides: At about 6:00 on a September morning I was almost at my home in the country. As I topped the hill, just before the road drops into the valley, I came to a stop because some thing somewhat torpedo- shaped traveled through the air not much higher than my car in front of me and as I watched, it rose to clear the tree tops to my right. There was what appeared to be colored flame inside the frame. I no longer remember the colors but I do remember white and blue.
I heard no sound; on the other hand my window was shut.
Bemused, I went on home barely another mile away. I decided that probably someone in the neighborhood had built something that he or she could set off and had chosen the early morning hour to avoid detection .
But then a few weeks later I met my brother at my parents' place a half mile or so from mine and I told him what I had seen. He looked at me funny and said that he and Dad were out mending fence the summer before when the same thing that I described went past them and straight into the front of the heavily wooded and steep loaf of mountain across the road from our dad's place. He said it didn't 'crash' into the mountain but that it seemed to just enter it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we kidding?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 01:46 AM

There are some things I can't divulge in a public forum still the things I can are hopeful such as the largest aliens are rather awkwardly insecure and are obcessed with doubts but they have good intentions and work hard. The smallest aliens are snooty like mean girls in high school.
Overall their eyelids do not blink in the wrong direction. Reports that they have no mouth or anus is incorrect, they are however virtually vestigal. Travel is often in excess of 1,000 miles per second in the upper atmosphere. In empty space, fuggetaboutit. They are secretive about recipes, especially their hot blood cheese. They are resigned to the inevitable norm of extinction so they are not a desperate lot despite millenium lifespans.. AND yes they have a darksidethatskindofcute.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 08:20 PM

...Or maybe they will will...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 08:18 PM

....And I hope they realise that they'll never get away from the clutches of Planet Earth at five miles per second. They'll be doomed at that speed and we'll 'ave 'em. They won't won't like it up 'em is my theory...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 07:22 PM

.. is this about eggs, or ego...?

.. if the aliens are a lot smarter than us,
I hope they are not as obnoxiously conceited about it...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 07:01 PM

In court you may hear the word 'argumento' which is a devil's advocate way of arguing for the sake of learning. I think others think an argument is akin to a fist fight.

Steve and I may break the same number of eggs but I usally just go for an omlette, he might make a souffle' but still prefer to critisize my omlette. Nutrition was my goal but it seems Steve has a different agenda. Vivre l'differance.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 05:50 PM

Well five miles a second is certainly an original thought. No-one's had that one before. :-). At least my eggs are real. I know this: I've eaten six in the last forty-eight hours and I cracked them all myself...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 04:34 PM

weightless orbit is 5 miles/sec, 7 miles/sec breaks orbit and sends you 'elsewhere'.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 04:27 PM

Oh dear go back to your kitchen and beat eggs. Your vendetta has blinded you forever. Have an original thought or shuddup.

I was once trying to reach a famous author by phone and a secretaty said, "sorry he's dead right now"

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 03:41 PM

Here's the thing with you, Donuel. You don't check your facts and you play fast and loose. The escape velocity from Earth is a shade under seven miles per second. You said five. You tell us that you've studied these things for decades, etc. So what else do you say that can't be relied on?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 03:14 PM

I wish you could ask him but I think if you did you'd find him unresponsive.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 03:01 PM

It takes us 8 1/2 minutes to reach 5 miles per second and excape Earth's gravity. It takes a UAP about a second from our perspective, but what if it takes them about 8 minutes from their perspective inside a special field of manipulated time and space. We all understand relativistic time distortion orbiting a black hole but to have the time distortion without the incredible mass of a black hole is something I wish Asimov would explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 11:38 AM

While I posted those 3 links already consider if I had the tech to track you driving down Veirs Mill and your van reflected radar, your car temp was taken and your vehicle relected and emanated photons for a photograph, I would assume you are actually there. It would be accurate but incomplete to say there is only evidence your vehicle was there.
Technically we could split hairs.

When I said humans can manipulate energy and mass I mean we can convert/transmute one to another in both directions. We can make energetic explosions from mass or with energy we can seed and grow diamonds.
But we have to imagine if someone could convert/transmute space and time. We don't even think in those terms. But that is merely a simplified speculation that could explain some unknowns...
I am not saying we probably have evidence of how or why. I do know we have lots of who, when, where and bits of what.

Honestly I will never expect a 'final' report.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 09:42 AM

That final 'report' is due today, but nothing so far says "... the pentagon announcement that the ! craft ! are real." They just say that WE had no craft where these 'events' were reported. It doesn't assume there are **real craft**.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-weigh-in-on-pentagon-ufo-report/
"Although the task force’s unclassified assessment is not expected until June 25, the New York Times provided a cursory preview of its contents in an article on June 3. Citing anonymous senior officials familiar with the report’s contents, the story said that the assessment has come up short of explaining what UAP are and that it provides no evidence to link them with any putative alien visitation—despite reviewing more than 120 incidents from the past 20 years. The report’s firmest conclusion, it seems, is that the vast majority of UAP happenings and their surprising maneuvers are not caused by any U.S. advanced technology programs."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/03/us/politics/ufos-sighting-alien-spacecraft-pentagon.html

"June 3, 2021

WASHINGTON — American intelligence officials have found no evidence that aerial phenomena witnessed by Navy pilots in recent years are alien spacecraft, but they still cannot explain the unusual movements that have mystified scientists and the military, according to senior administration officials briefed on the findings of a highly anticipated government report."

https://www.livescience.com/ufos-not-alien-spacecraft-pentagon-report.html {which includes the pic of the 4 "cotton ball craft" I mentioned before}

"A new report from U.S. intelligence officials claims that there's no evidence that the unidentified flying objects (UFOs) sighted in recent years — even objects that seemed to perform aerodynamic feats beyond the capabilities of human aircraft — are extraterrestrial in origin. "


'....wisdom in philosophy."

Philosophy doesn't (usually) deal with what is 'truth'.. it examines the logic and implications of assertions that claim truth. Occam's Razor, the Explosion Principal...various 'informal fallacies', etc. are used to put assertions to various tests for internal consistency.
It is **possible** for a seemingly amazing claims to BE true, even if arrived at by dubious premises... but this is not the usual outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 08:09 AM

An aside to Bill, I still contend that Pete was necessitated to have his anti evolutionary and other beliefs due to a personal long lasting tradgedy.
I also still do a 'daily' cartoon that comes about once a week. I just don't spend 2 hours making it with photoshop. I like making myself laugh be it a snide laugh, wide laugh or an 'oh my' snicker.

Questions about who what when and where are simple compared to WHY.
Maybe thats why you persisteently saw a wisdom in philosophy. There is a why I choose the path less traveled but lately its becoming a highway due to the internet. I have been called everything except a 'stogey old fogey'. Except when I try to use a %#*&^ smart phone.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 05:53 AM

While I am glad you have made it through the pandemic you both are missing the obvious and harbor worn out realities in that you can not accept the pentagon announcement that the ! craft ! are real.

For the same reason we had to avoid contact with each other is probably why contact is dangerous to not just us but to 'them'.
It explains alot. We all carry a micro biom of bacteria and virus. Even the bodies of dead animals including us in the dirt and melting ice are full of virus for eons. Its not so much War of the Worlds but war of the'germs'

Humans can manipulate mass and energy. They seem to manipulate space and time. There is debate that 'they' are us as Bill was hinting.
I find that argument on the narsicist side.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 08:34 PM

The Pentagon had stuff they NEEDED to keep secret...like at Groom Lake/Area 51... they would have lied, or at least dissembled.. when asked about odd sightings of aircraft.

My uncle did blueprints for Consolidated Vultee in San Diego in the 50s when the VTO planes were first revealed. He told me he'd known about that for several years... and that I wouldn't believe some of the secret stuff they were working on.
   Of course, that sort of stuff is still going on. There will always be secrets... but we 'usually' hear about them later.. like the Stealth stuff.
   Alien craft hidden at Area 51?   *shrug*.. that assumes that alien craft which can cross interstellar space can crash and be found and no real leaks about it... I am still waiting.......

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 06:18 PM

I haven't got an argument. Joe thinks I have an argument against the existence of God. I haven't. All I want is to hear evidence. By evidence, I mean evidence that goes beyond hearsay, witness, sci-fi stories and received wisdom. Evidence that can leap that difficult high bar. Stuff that is repeatable, unarguable and able to be corroborated. You simply can't give us that about your ufos. No fuzzy-wuzzy photos or dodgy videos will cut it. No assertions from eminent but unqualified politicos. Your powers of imagination may well be admirable. But those who dabble in the true magic of reality are even more so.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 05:59 PM

I was exposed to the same paradigms and mind sets as you guys but its not the 1950's anymore. Yes the pentagon lied back then and now after several Senate investigations they are admitting various types of extraordinary craft are monitored and deemed real-not illusory.
Are they lying now?
Its possible but unlikely.
At least that is a more savory arguement than Steve's.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 05:34 PM

I'm sorry to hear that, Bill. Mrs Steve and I have both passed 70 now and the odd scare (unfounded so far, thankfully) reminds us of the potentially troublous times to come...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 03:16 PM

Donuel has wide interests and an extremely complex set of life experiences. I can't 'keep' his feet..or his mind & attention... anywhere.
I do make comments when something anyone says pushes my "Oh-oh" buttons. Like Pete ******* and a few others.. (grin).
My mind is mostly elsewhere these days, as my wife's health has declined and she in in hospice care.
    Browsing Mudcat is a temporary escape from my daily efforts to prove Sisyphus wrong, but it seems there is more than one stone to push uphill...or perhaps a better metaphor is a plate spinner.

Anyway.. Donuel is on the way to a Mudcat record for most posts. He just has his own topics ...which do change over time. I really miss hid brilliant cartoons from years ago...

C'est la vie.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 11:45 AM

Good man, Bill. But will you keep Donuel's feet on the ground? Or is that as likely as having a chat with a real alien...or getting a visit from God in his chariot of fire...? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 11:40 AM

Another clue to UAPs is that they average 700 F while our Southwest airliner in summer averages 32 F in summer.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 10:03 AM

Most "uap pheenomena" are personal anecdotes about subjective experiences.

I am sure that most anecdotes are honest recounts of what someone experienced, but 1000 anecdotes do not = one solid bit of evidence. An 'experience' is not necessarily external.

There are thousands of anecdotes about religious visions, also. The human mind is a powerful thing and interpreting its own patterns is dealt with in Phenomenological philosophy.

note: I do NOT 'deny' the possible truth of real 'uap' or 'ufo' occurrences. I merely have followed the stories for about 65 years with hope that some WOULD be authenticated.
So far, none of the supposed musings and semi-denials and reluctant shrugs about possibilities from those who should know... if there is anything to be known.. pass the test. I've watched many TV programs and read about Roswell and Area 51 till I can't take any more.....
There was a 'famous' photo of 4 lights in the sky in formation many years ago. Some guy glued 4 cotton balls to his window and recreated the photo almost exactly... and so it goes.

Physics & chemistry are such that certain conditions WILL produce events leading to DNA and a lot of complex results.
   If I had an extra $, I'd bet that in billions of galaxies with 10²³ stars, there are...or have been... other places with sentient life.
I'd also bet that none of them can overcome the limits of space/time that we find insurmountable. Maybe someday? *shrug* I think my $ is safe.

Over & out...