Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?

Subject: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: GUEST,rusqat
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 05:55 AM

Apparently since the 60s folk have been singing Willy o' Winsbury to the tune of Fause Foodrage.

What tune was it sung to before?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 07:26 AM

First, there is no known "original" of Willy o' Winsbury -- Child has nine texts! Bronson has 22 different tunes for "Willy."

For that matter, Bronson has three different tunes for "Fause Foodrage."

My guess is that the tune you're referring to is the tune sung by Pentangle (at least, that's the attributed source of the people I heard it from). That seems to be far the most common tune today. But I've heard what I would consider to be three different tunes. And Bronson lists four tune-groups. By far the largest group (15 of the 22 tunes) is what he calls Group D. This is known primarily from Sharp and/or Karpeles and is almost entirely North American (Hammond had a "D" tune from Dorset).

Group "C" (4 tunes) is all from Scotland, collected by Greig. Group B has only one item, from Kinloch, so it may be a fluke. Group "A" has two tunes of unclear provenance.

So it's an interesting question which is the oldest tune. D is most widespread but is late. C is also later than A or B but looks like the most unified. A and B are poorly attested.

Just based on sources, I would guess "C" as most likely to be the earliest tune, but I can't hear it in my head just from looking at staff notation, so I can't tell you if it's any good.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: KarenJoyce
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 09:35 AM

Child published one tune for "Willie O'Winsbury". It can be found in this version of volume V at Gutenberg.org:
https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/71104/pg71104-images.html#INDEX_OF_BALLAD_T

(If the link fails you can cut and paste BUT you must change the last T to TITLES.)

It is the third tune on page 418. The link lands you at the start of the ballad titles index; you have to scroll up from there, watching for page numbers to the right. If you happen to go to the top of this (long) page, do not be put off by the fact that the tune section is not included in the table of contents - it really is there, just above the title index. And there is a LISTEN link so you can hear the tune. Apparently it is the tune for Child's J version. (I use this tune even though I don't sing the J version words.)

It is credited to "Miss M. Macmath", sister to William Macmath, one of the Scottish collectors who provided many ballads to Child.

Frequently the use of the "Fause Foodrage" tune in modern times is credited to Andy Irvine.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 10:49 AM

KarenJoyce wrote: It is credited to "Miss M. Macmath", sister to William Macmath, one of the Scottish collectors who provided many ballads to Child.

To be cranky in my own defense :-), there is no reason to think this the original tune; it's merely the one Child knew and printed. :-) Bronson in fact prints it dead last, at #22 -- which implies a certain amount of doubt. Bronson lists it as being in the Macmath MS "Learned September 13, 1886, from his aunt, Miss Jane Webster, who learned it 50 years earlier in Kirkudbrightshire, from the singing of Samuel Galloway."

It is one of Bronson's "D" complex, though, so it is a member of an attested tune family. It's certainly a traditional tune. It's just that there are other traditional tunes.

Frequently the use of the "Fause Foodrage" tune in modern times is credited to Andy Irvine.

This I had not known. Thank you!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Reinhard
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 12:35 PM

Andy Irvine recorded Willie o’ Winsbury in 1968 with Sweeney's Men and in 2010 on his album Abocurragh where he noted:

Learned back in the sixties from Professor Child’s collection of traditional ballads which was like the bible at the time. This is Child 100. I collated words from different versions and as the story goes, on looking up the tune, I lighted on the tune to number 101 [Willie o Douglas Dale]. I’m not sure if this is true but it’s a good story. I recorded it solo on Sweeney’s Men’s eponymous first album in 1968 accompanying myself on guitar.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 01:29 PM

By the way, at the risk of making myself sound like a bloody bore (a serious risk, since most people probably already considered me one :-), I will point out that Child should not be considered a significant source for tunes of the Child Ballads. Many collectors at that time did not print tunes, but some did, and Child printed only a selection of those, not curated and not collated or compared as he did with his texts. Child's tunes are (mostly) genuinely traditional but are frequently not typical.

Those wishing to do research on Child Ballad tunes really must start from Bronson, not Child.

For those looking to find tunes of Child Ballads not printed by Bronson, the Traditional Ballad Index can be helpful, since all tunes of Child Ballads have their Bronson codes. Taking "Willie o' Winsbury" as an example, Greig/Duncan, volume 5, has 7 tunes for "Willie" not cited by Bronson (at least from Greig/Duncan). Karpeles-FolkSongsFromNewfoundland has four tunes, only one cited by Bronson. Leach-FolkBalladsSongsOfLowerLabradorCoast has two tunes, neither cited by Bronson. Genevieve Lehr had a tune not cited by Bronson. Kenneth Peacock had two tunes not known to Bronson. And Sam Henry had a tune not known to Bronson.

I have not tried to compare these tunes with Bronson's tune-groups; since no one really knows how he did it (except maybe internal genius), it would be hard to try.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 03:10 PM

Are there any pre- 60's "source" recordings (wax cylinder? tape? ancient pottery*?) of Wo'W?

Certainly the tune popular since Sweeney's Men (or whoever) fits the song perfectly, both metrically and in mood. I've often experimented with swapping tunes (taking my cue from I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue), some more successfully than others. The Poacher's Fate (Come all ye lads of high renown) works, I think, very well with the tune of the Canadian (Newfy? KEI?) song Goose Bay. The Recruited Collier I think goes well with Andy's Gone With Cattle, though some punters say the tune is too jolly for the subject.

*6500 year old sounds fossilised in pottery!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 03:25 PM

Paul Burke wrote: Are there any pre- 60's "source" recordings (wax cylinder? tape? ancient pottery*?) of Wo'W?

There are several, though they aren't easy to get. One of Peacock's Newfoundland tunes is on the CD-ROM auxiliary to Peacock's books -- "John Barbour," recorded by Everett Bennet. Anita Best and Pamela Morgan recorded "Johnny Barbour," the Genevieve Lehr version. And Robert Cinnamond apparently supplied two versions, "There Was a Lady Lived in the West" and "John Barlow."

All of Bronson's versions were from manuscript, not field recordings.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: GUEST,Guest Joan F
Date: 01 Sep 23 - 05:21 PM

And so far no-one seems to be mentioning Betsy (pronounced Bessie by all adressing her) & Bryce(ie) Whyte's verson on Tobar an Dualchais, the Scottish database, which is the same as Anita Best & Pamela Morgan's version on "The Colour of Amber" but for how they handle the refrain-ish line at the end of each verse.

Anita Best says she knows 3 tunes, one of which she won't record because the guy she learned it from told her not to. She does sing it to people, but Iheard it a long time ago.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: GUEST,Guest Joan F
Date: 01 Sep 23 - 05:26 PM

And the tune Irvine uses sounds a lot more like "Willie of Couglass or Douglass Dale" than "Fause Fooderage", from version of both sung I've found on the internet. I don't read round-notes, have to hear tunes.

Irvine modalized whatever he read & made a great tune.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 01 Sep 23 - 08:08 PM

Joan F. wrote And the tune Irvine uses sounds a lot more like "Willie of Couglass or Douglass Dale" than "Fause Fooderage."

I believe you are correct. None of the tunes in Bronson looks exactly like the Irvine tune as I know it (though I learned it through at least two intermediaries, so it might have drifted :-), but I can see how to get there from "Willie o Douglas Dale," and I can't from "Fause Foodrage."

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: GUEST,Guest Joan F
Date: 01 Sep 23 - 09:13 PM

Winsbury is Child 100 & Douglass Dale is 101, so the # mixup story makes more sense. Its why I looked for a sung example of Douglass. Not a popular song.

You can get Irvine singing Winsbury all over the internet.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: GUEST,rusqat
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 04:26 PM

Thank you all for your responses! This has been very informative.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: GUEST,James Phillips
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 09:37 AM

Same tune was used by Richard Thompson for his "Farewell Farewell" as recorded by Fairport Convention. Actually I think most of Andy Irvine's genius in using this tune for Willy O'Winsbury was in the chords he used to harmonize it. You can't really improve upon them.

Subject: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: GUEST,rusqat
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 05:55 AM

Apparently since the 60s folk have been singing Willy o' Winsbury to the tune of Fause Foodrage.

What tune was it sung to before?

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: GUEST,Guest Joan F
Date: 01 Sep 23 - 05:21 PM

And so far no-one seems to be mentioning Betsy (pronounced Bessie by all adressing her) & Bryce(ie) Whyte's verson on Tobar an Dualchais, the Scottish database, which is the same as Anita Best & Pamela Morgan's version on "The Colour of Amber" but for how they handle the refrain-ish line at the end of each verse.

Anita Best says she knows 3 tunes, one of which she won't record because the guy she learned it from told her not to. She does sing it to people, but Iheard it a long time ago.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: GUEST,Guest Joan F
Date: 01 Sep 23 - 05:26 PM

And the tune Irvine uses sounds a lot more like "Willie of Couglass or Douglass Dale" than "Fause Fooderage", from version of both sung I've found on the internet. I don't read round-notes, have to hear tunes.

Irvine modalized whatever he read & made a great tune.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: GUEST,Guest Joan F
Date: 01 Sep 23 - 09:13 PM

Winsbury is Child 100 & Douglass Dale is 101, so the # mixup story makes more sense. Its why I looked for a sung example of Douglass. Not a popular song.

You can get Irvine singing Winsbury all over the internet.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: GUEST,rusqat
Date: 21 Sep 23 - 04:26 PM

Thank you all for your responses! This has been very informative.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: GUEST,James Phillips
Date: 24 Sep 23 - 09:37 AM

Same tune was used by Richard Thompson for his "Farewell Farewell" as recorded by Fairport Convention. Actually I think most of Andy Irvine's genius in using this tune for Willy O'Winsbury was in the chords he used to harmonize it. You can't really improve upon them.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Reinhard
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 12:35 PM

Andy Irvine recorded Willie o’ Winsbury in 1968 with Sweeney's Men and in 2010 on his album Abocurragh where he noted:

Learned back in the sixties from Professor Child’s collection of traditional ballads which was like the bible at the time. This is Child 100. I collated words from different versions and as the story goes, on looking up the tune, I lighted on the tune to number 101 [Willie o Douglas Dale]. I’m not sure if this is true but it’s a good story. I recorded it solo on Sweeney’s Men’s eponymous first album in 1968 accompanying myself on guitar.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 03:10 PM

Are there any pre- 60's "source" recordings (wax cylinder? tape? ancient pottery*?) of Wo'W?

Certainly the tune popular since Sweeney's Men (or whoever) fits the song perfectly, both metrically and in mood. I've often experimented with swapping tunes (taking my cue from I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue), some more successfully than others. The Poacher's Fate (Come all ye lads of high renown) works, I think, very well with the tune of the Canadian (Newfy? KEI?) song Goose Bay. The Recruited Collier I think goes well with Andy's Gone With Cattle, though some punters say the tune is too jolly for the subject.

*6500 year old sounds fossilised in pottery!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: KarenJoyce
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 09:35 AM

Child published one tune for "Willie O'Winsbury". It can be found in this version of volume V at Gutenberg.org:
https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/71104/pg71104-images.html#INDEX_OF_BALLAD_T

(If the link fails you can cut and paste BUT you must change the last T to TITLES.)

It is the third tune on page 418. The link lands you at the start of the ballad titles index; you have to scroll up from there, watching for page numbers to the right. If you happen to go to the top of this (long) page, do not be put off by the fact that the tune section is not included in the table of contents - it really is there, just above the title index. And there is a LISTEN link so you can hear the tune. Apparently it is the tune for Child's J version. (I use this tune even though I don't sing the J version words.)

It is credited to "Miss M. Macmath", sister to William Macmath, one of the Scottish collectors who provided many ballads to Child.

Frequently the use of the "Fause Foodrage" tune in modern times is credited to Andy Irvine.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 07:26 AM

First, there is no known "original" of Willy o' Winsbury -- Child has nine texts! Bronson has 22 different tunes for "Willy."

For that matter, Bronson has three different tunes for "Fause Foodrage."

My guess is that the tune you're referring to is the tune sung by Pentangle (at least, that's the attributed source of the people I heard it from). That seems to be far the most common tune today. But I've heard what I would consider to be three different tunes. And Bronson lists four tune-groups. By far the largest group (15 of the 22 tunes) is what he calls Group D. This is known primarily from Sharp and/or Karpeles and is almost entirely North American (Hammond had a "D" tune from Dorset).

Group "C" (4 tunes) is all from Scotland, collected by Greig. Group B has only one item, from Kinloch, so it may be a fluke. Group "A" has two tunes of unclear provenance.

So it's an interesting question which is the oldest tune. D is most widespread but is late. C is also later than A or B but looks like the most unified. A and B are poorly attested.

Just based on sources, I would guess "C" as most likely to be the earliest tune, but I can't hear it in my head just from looking at staff notation, so I can't tell you if it's any good.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 10:49 AM

KarenJoyce wrote: It is credited to "Miss M. Macmath", sister to William Macmath, one of the Scottish collectors who provided many ballads to Child.

To be cranky in my own defense :-), there is no reason to think this the original tune; it's merely the one Child knew and printed. :-) Bronson in fact prints it dead last, at #22 -- which implies a certain amount of doubt. Bronson lists it as being in the Macmath MS "Learned September 13, 1886, from his aunt, Miss Jane Webster, who learned it 50 years earlier in Kirkudbrightshire, from the singing of Samuel Galloway."

It is one of Bronson's "D" complex, though, so it is a member of an attested tune family. It's certainly a traditional tune. It's just that there are other traditional tunes.

Frequently the use of the "Fause Foodrage" tune in modern times is credited to Andy Irvine.

This I had not known. Thank you!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 01:29 PM

By the way, at the risk of making myself sound like a bloody bore (a serious risk, since most people probably already considered me one :-), I will point out that Child should not be considered a significant source for tunes of the Child Ballads. Many collectors at that time did not print tunes, but some did, and Child printed only a selection of those, not curated and not collated or compared as he did with his texts. Child's tunes are (mostly) genuinely traditional but are frequently not typical.

Those wishing to do research on Child Ballad tunes really must start from Bronson, not Child.

For those looking to find tunes of Child Ballads not printed by Bronson, the Traditional Ballad Index can be helpful, since all tunes of Child Ballads have their Bronson codes. Taking "Willie o' Winsbury" as an example, Greig/Duncan, volume 5, has 7 tunes for "Willie" not cited by Bronson (at least from Greig/Duncan). Karpeles-FolkSongsFromNewfoundland has four tunes, only one cited by Bronson. Leach-FolkBalladsSongsOfLowerLabradorCoast has two tunes, neither cited by Bronson. Genevieve Lehr had a tune not cited by Bronson. Kenneth Peacock had two tunes not known to Bronson. And Sam Henry had a tune not known to Bronson.

I have not tried to compare these tunes with Bronson's tune-groups; since no one really knows how he did it (except maybe internal genius), it would be hard to try.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 29 Aug 23 - 03:25 PM

Paul Burke wrote: Are there any pre- 60's "source" recordings (wax cylinder? tape? ancient pottery*?) of Wo'W?

There are several, though they aren't easy to get. One of Peacock's Newfoundland tunes is on the CD-ROM auxiliary to Peacock's books -- "John Barbour," recorded by Everett Bennet. Anita Best and Pamela Morgan recorded "Johnny Barbour," the Genevieve Lehr version. And Robert Cinnamond apparently supplied two versions, "There Was a Lady Lived in the West" and "John Barlow."

All of Bronson's versions were from manuscript, not field recordings.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: The original tune of Willy o' Winsbury?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 01 Sep 23 - 08:08 PM

Joan F. wrote And the tune Irvine uses sounds a lot more like "Willie of Couglass or Douglass Dale" than "Fause Fooderage."

I believe you are correct. None of the tunes in Bronson looks exactly like the Irvine tune as I know it (though I learned it through at least two intermediaries, so it might have drifted :-), but I can see how to get there from "Willie o Douglas Dale," and I can't from "Fause Foodrage."